"The Antichrist" teaching is a myth

RND · May 31, 2007

(Denver;11170)
Revelation 12:1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Indeed. A woman "clothed" with the sun symbolically represents the church's character regarding the "light" of truth through the "Son" Jesus Christ. Clothing in scripture always represents character or righteouness. On her head, on her crown, are the twelve stars which represent Israel/the apostles which brought forth the Word of God.
A very similar image appears elsewhere in the Bible and it does not deal with the church but instead deals with Israel. I return to Genesis 39 and Joseph's dream: Genesis 37:9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 11 + 1(Joseph) = 12
This is interesting but it should be fairly standard knowledge that the tribe, i.e. nation of Israel (Jacob) was made up of 10 sons of Jacob and the two sons of Joseph. Joseph was never counted as a territory. Levi was never counted as a territorial tribe either and never had a territory named after it.AsherBenjaminDanGadIssacharJudahNaphtaliReubenSimeonZebulunThese ten were from Israel.Manasseh EphraimThese two were from Joseph.
The twelve tribes of Israel bore ensigns (Numbers 2:2). These had one of the twelve signs of the Zodiac for each house. 12 denotes governmental perfection.
As for each tribe of Israel having a flag, this would be incorrect as well, in that if we read further in Number 2 four "hosts" were named and certain tribes were to camp with there host. For example, Rueben was the host and camped with Rueben on the south side of the tabernacle were Simeon and Gad. Judah, along with Issachar and Zebulan were camped on the east side. On the west side of the tabernacle camped Ephraim, Manasseh and Benjamin. Lastly on the north side were the smallest tribes, Dan, Asher and Naphtali.
It would be blasphemous to say that the church (bride) gave rise to the groom when the groom was the one that made it possible for the bride to exist. Jesus was an Israelite and that's documented by his lineage.
It would only be "blasphemous" to say that when it is more convenient to call names than to seek and understand the truth. It is also important to note that Jesus was God incarnate, with neither DNA from a man or a woman. God is neither Jew or Israelite. Just as Noah wasn't a Jew or an Israelite, neither was Jacob, or Abraham, or Joseph neither was Jesus an "Israelite" by birth.
There are seven kings of seven mountains. As I said before, if this were merely what you say it is, how does one go about choosing the seven? These are earthly kings of mountains. I know the nonsense about Rome being built on seven hills, but there are not seven separate kings of each hill in Rome.
These "kings" derive their power from the Roman/Papal system.Revelation 17:11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. That is the second best of Revelation 13. It is a HE and HE is a king and not a mountain. He is the eighth king it says it right there.
Revelation 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. They have yet to come and will receive power one hour.
24 measly hours? If we know a day in prophecy equals a year then we know one hour equals roughly 15 years. 360 days divided by 24 = 15 years. Here we can clearly see power is attributed to kings via horns (Who brought that up?!)Again, if we follow sound doctrine and seek wisdom and understanding honestly we can see that these sysmbols represent the merging of the false religous system (paganism) of Rome with the political kings of the world.Lesson 23: A Woman Rides The Beast(Revelation 17)
Revelation 12:3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This beast differs slightly from the Revelation 13 one, but most characteristics remain the same. The difference is that there are only seven crowns and not ten.The ten horns are there though in heaven and they are later found on Earth. What does the Bible say about it again?
Is it possible that the language here is symbolic for a false political system that attacks the church led by Satan himself which persecutes the brethren? What did this great red dragon do? It drew a third part of the stars in heaven to the earth by way of it's false accusations and this very dragon was ready to devour the woman's child. (Rev. 12:9)
Revelation 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. They are (wannabe) kings in heaven that will be kings on earth. These are some of the Lt.'s of Satan. These are not earthly men such as the first seven kings.
Does it say they are in "heaven" or is that what you want to read into it? Do you see "heaven" anywhere in this verse?
Revelation 17:13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. One mind that desires the same thing.
Does it make sense to you that something in "heaven" turns around in the very next verse to have one mind and give the power and strength it has with "the beast?"
Revelation 19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Who is the false prophet? A mystery? Not at all.Revelation 13:11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. He looks like a lamb but speaks just like that dragon that was tossed out of heaven because he is that dragon. He looks like the Lamb although he is nothing but a false prophet.[/LEFT]
Well at least we can concur on a point or two.

HammerStone · Jun 1, 2007

Indeed. A woman "clothed" with the sun symbolically represents the church's character regarding the "light" of truth through the "Son" Jesus Christ. Clothing in scripture always represents character or righteouness. On her head, on her crown, are the twelve stars which represent Israel/the apostles which brought forth the Word of God.
I'd prefer some form of documentation for some of what you're saying here. I'm past the vague assurances such as the one about the US. Admittedly, you're not going to change my view on this because while putting twelve stars to twelve disciples sounds nice, there are no coincidences in the Bible. The dream of Joseph is certainly not an exception.
This is interesting but it should be fairly standard knowledge that the tribe, i.e. nation of Israel (Jacob) was made up of 10 sons of Jacob and the two sons of Joseph.
I appreciate the condescension to set me straight, but I'm afraid the overall significance here is being missed in your effort to correct me. Twelve tribes.
As for each tribe of Israel having a flag, this would be incorrect as well, in that if we read further in Number 2 four "hosts" were named and certain tribes were to camp with there host.
I'm going to come off rude here, but don't remain ignorant of how the encampment of Israel worked. I'd hate to digress from this important of a topic with a very long study on how the tribes of Israel moved. However, suffice to say that it makes a very interesting study. Each man had the standard of his house. Numbers 2:2Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch. Someone of Asher would be under the main ensign of Dan, but that is not the ensign of his father's house. This is confirmed by an extra-Biblical source that is very reliable because what he says agrees with Scripture. Josephus said, in his The Wars of the Jews: (Ch. V, #5)...Now the twelve loaves that were upon the table signified the circle of the zodiac and the year... He also documents that the sign of the zodiac was found on the floor of the temple in Jerusalem and continues on to state that this was knowledge passed down from Adam, Seth, and Enoch. We can document this Scripturally. Genesis 1:14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Psalm 19:1-5To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. Job 38:32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? hrzzm Mazzarah (maz-zaw-raw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4216 Mazzaroth [list type=decimal][*]the 12 signs of the Zodiac and their 36 associated constellations[/list]It is used only one time. 12 constellations is a very arbitrary number when one considers the heaven. The number is Biblical for a reason and that is why twelve stars are found around the woman.
It would only be "blasphemous" to say that when it is more convenient to call names than to seek and understand the truth. It is also important to note that Jesus was God incarnate, with neither DNA from a man or a woman. God is neither Jew or Israelite. Just as Noah wasn't a Jew or an Israelite, neither was Jacob, or Abraham, or Joseph neither was Jesus an "Israelite" by birth.
Either God came in the flesh or he didn't. If he came in the flesh and was born of woman, he would have her DNA. This can become a sticking point for some, but I'd argue that's very dangerous territory where you are treading. What I know of you so far would not discount the flesh nature of Christ, but nonetheless this concerns me a bit.
These "kings" derive their power from the Roman/Papal system.
Dozens upon dozens have done this. The Bible says seven. I'm simply asking which seven is it out of these dozens? I've yet to see an answer. My point is that this is a one world system and therefore we don't know the names of all of them. Only one, and that is the beast named Apollyon in the Greek and Abbadon in the Hebrew.
24 measly hours?
Revelation 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Does it say they are in "heaven" or is that what you want to read into it? Do you see "heaven" anywhere in this verse?
Hey if you cannot follow the logic I don't know what else to say. The beast that appears in heaven, which is Satan, looks VERY similar to the one on earth with only a minor difference. The ten horns are there for both.
Does it make sense to you that something in "heaven" turns around in the very next verse to have one mind and give the power and strength it has with "the beast?"
Why would it not make sense? You've lost me on that. This is Satan and his #2's that have one mind to do as much damage as they can. They were cast down from heaven as Revelation documents. They desired to be kings (horns of power in heaven) but there is only one King. They come to Earth where they will receive power one hour with the beast for the hour of temptation.

RND · Jun 1, 2007

Denver;11175]I said:
he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness[/b], as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.Isaiah 64:6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I'm past the vague assurances such as the one about the US.

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That seems understandable.

Admittedly, you're not going to change my view on this because while putting twelve stars to twelve disciples sounds nice, there are no coincidences in the Bible. The dream of Joseph is certainly not an exception.

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Indeed. However, the view I have is consistent with most thoughtful and historical Christian scholars including Mathew Henry."The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. The moon was under her feet; she was superior to the reflected and feebler light of the revelation made by Moses. Having on her head a crown of twelve stars; the doctrine of the gospel, preached by the twelve apostles, is a crown of glory to all true believers."

I appreciate the condescension to set me straight, but I'm afraid the overall significance here is being missed in your effort to correct me. Twelve tribes.

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I think the point being made was if such a simple mistake could be made respecting the tribes of Israel it might be an indication of other tendencies and inconsistencies.

I'm going to come off rude here, but don't remain ignorant of how the encampment of Israel worked.

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Oh, I don't think that will be an issue. The most important aspect of the encampment was it's resemblance to the shape of the Cross.

I'd hate to digress from this important of a topic with a very long study on how the tribes of Israel moved. However, suffice to say that it makes a very interesting study. Each man had the standard of his house. Numbers 2:2Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch. Someone of Asher would be under the main ensign of Dan, but that is not the ensign of his father's house. This is confirmed by an extra-Biblical source that is very reliable because what he says agrees with Scripture.

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Suffice to say that when they went into battle the ensign/banner flown was that of the host.

Josephus said, in his The Wars of the Jews: (Ch. V, #5)...Now the twelve loaves that were upon the table signified the circle of the zodiac and the year... He also documents that the sign of the zodiac was found on the floor of the temple in Jerusalem and continues on to state that this was knowledge passed down from Adam, Seth, and Enoch. We can document this Scripturally. Genesis 1:14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Psalm 19:1-5To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. Job 38:32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? hrzzm Mazzarah (maz-zaw-raw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4216 Mazzaroth [list type=decimal][*]the 12 signs of the Zodiac and their 36 associated constellations[/list]It is used only one time. 12 constellations is a very arbitrary number when one considers the heaven. The number is Biblical for a reason and that is why twelve stars are found around the woman.

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Funny, but I seem to recall the admonition that the stars we for a few specific purposes. Astology was not one of them.Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.Genesis 1:14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Either God came in the flesh or he didn't.

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He did. So in order to have the DNA of God, God would have had to have inseminated Mary, so God's DNA could have mingled with Mary's to create Jesus. Does God even have DNA? Or was Mary overcome by the Holy Spirit?Matthew 1: 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

If he came in the flesh and was born of woman, he would have her DNA.

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No not at all. Luke 1:37For with God nothing shall be impossible.

This can become a sticking point for some, but I'd argue that's very dangerous territory where you are treading.

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Why? Because I read into scripture what is obvious?

What I know of you so far would not discount the flesh nature of Christ, but nonetheless this concerns me a bit.

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Christ was fully man and fully flesh. That's not to say God inseminated Mary.

Dozens upon dozens have done this. The Bible says seven. I'm simply asking which seven is it out of these dozens? I've yet to see an answer.

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I have provided ample studies and information for your perusal. You just need to be willing to peruse.

My point is that this is a one world system and therefore we don't know the names of all of them. Only one, and that is the beast named Apollyon in the Greek and Abbadon in the Hebrew.

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You mean the same guy that was in the Garden? Or was working iniquity in the early church? You mean that one that has been on earth since the beginning?

Revelation 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Hey if you cannot follow the logic I don't know what else to say. The beast that appears in heaven, which is Satan, looks VERY similar to the one on earth with only a minor difference. The ten horns are there for both.

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The "beast" didn't appear in heaven the dragon did. Satan. Kicked out of heaven he fell to earth. Rev. 12:3 describes the dragon's relationship with the kings of earth in that they share the same characteristics.

Why would it not make sense? You've lost me on that. This is Satan and his #2's that have one mind to do as much damage as they can. They were cast down from heaven as Revelation documents. They desired to be kings (horns of power in heaven) but there is only one King. They come to Earth where they will receive power one hour with the beast for the hour of temptation.

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That sounds lovely if it were scriptural. Satan doesn't "come back" to earth he is already here. Satan became the prince of this world when he was kicked out of heaven after the war. He has never left. Revelation 12:12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

HammerStone · Jun 1, 2007

Appreciate the reference, but all I see is covering like a woman. Far from a woman with the sun and moon at her feet and the twelve stars of the twleve tribes of Israel.
I think the point being made was if such a simple mistake could be made respecting the tribes of Israel it might be an indication of other tendencies and inconsistencies.
It wasn't a mistake. One has to understand that Joseph and his brothers make twelve and Joseph and his brothers would lead to the twelve tribes. There's just no mistake about it.
Funny, but I seem to recall the admonition that the stars we for a few specific purposes. Astology was not one of them.
That's to remain ignorant of the difference between what was and what is. I've documented that Scripture shows they were for signs. Hey if you want to argue with Scripture, have at it. This is not to be mistaken for the silly astrology of today. Highlighting the last part of Genesis 1:14 really says nothing by the way. It's funny how out of all of the purposes of the heavens, signs come first.
He did. So in order to have the DNA of God, God would have had to have inseminated Mary, so God's DNA could have mingled with Mary's to create Jesus. Does God even have DNA? Or was Mary overcome by the Holy Spirit?
Look, I don't really care to get into an argument about DNA. Christ came in the flesh and he was born of Mary. I think to say that he had some sort of magic Jesus DNA can get lead to dangerous territory. To argue that I am trying to limit God is slightly hypocritical when you argue insemination. To use your quote: Luke 1:37For with God nothing shall be impossible.
I have provided ample studies and information for your perusal. You just need to be willing to peruse.
I actually, and mistakingly, subscribed to this view for a short time. I see why one would find it attractive, but when I started digging things did not hold up. I've perused your material admittedly ignoring the outside articles due to time constraints. I'm familiar with the material and most likely with what those links are saying judging by titles.
You mean the same guy that was in the Garden? Or was working iniquity in the early church? You mean that one that has been on earth since the beginning?
Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Satan presents himself before God in Job starting in the very first chapter. Satan the man is in heaven but his spirit and iniquity is alive and well here. Notice that in Revelation 12, Satan is kicked out after it speaks of Jesus and the woman that we've had the discussion about. Old Wormwood has already been kicked out once in Revelation 8. He's then kicked out again where he comes to the Earth. Revelation 12:12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. I dare say 6,000 years is not a short time in the Bible. This verse comes after Jesus in the chapter and clearly can only happen after he had come the first time. For us, this has not happened yet for this is the horn. If Satan was truly kicked out for good, as you say, the blessed book of Job presents a real problem because he can go back there. Not much of a kicking out is it, then?

n2thelight · Jun 9, 2007

Food for thought,Christ said that He would return at a time when you think not. Now,ask yourself this question,when would you not think Christ would be returning? Would it not be at a time when you thought He was already here? Luke 12:40 "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." This is a very interesting verse, for the time that most people will be unprepared for Jesus Christ's return, is when they think that Christ is already here. When they are deceived into thinking that the first chirst is the True Christ. This again goes back to the unpardonable sin. That time when they are delivered up before the false christ, for their doctrines of the rapture will think that Satan is the true Christ. The problem with the rapture is that,those waiting on this event will be deceived because they are not aware that satan comes first,pretendinding to be Christ,and he is coming as all you expect Christ to,meaning he is not coming as all that is evil,rather as an angel of light II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." It is important to understand the meaning of the word anti in its greek form because it is not the same as we would define it in english,and that meaning is,instead of,that is how satan is coming here,first instead of Christ. 1) over against, opposite to, before 2) for, instead of, in place of (something) a) instead of

for c) for that, because d) wherefore, for this cause Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Can you not see who this second beast is,he looks like a lamb(Jesus)but he is the dragon,which is another name for satan,and he is going to be very good at what he pretends to be. This is why the number one thing that Christ warned us about was to not be deceived. Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you." This is the number one warning, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Deception will be the foremost thing to guard against in the latter days, that will consummate the end of this age. This means that these events will not happen all at one time, but will take place over a period of time. These warnings or signs that Jesus is about to give us, are the seven seals that are given us in the Book of Revelation. This 24th chapter of Matthew in my opinion is on of the strongest arguments against the rapture teaching,for in this chapter Christ tells us everything that must happen before His return,but yet those who believe in the rapture will tell you that Christ could return at any moment,and that is simply not true,and this is according to the words of Christ himself. They say that they will not go through the tribulation,but Christ says other wise Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." "Those days" are the days of this tribulation. If God did not shorten the time and reign of the Antichrist, no man in the flesh body would be spiritually saved, and not deceived by Satan the Antichrist. Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that this time of the Antichrist, the desolator, was one half of one week of years. That is one half of seven years, and it has been shortened to five [5] months. Revelation 9:5; "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man." God lets us know not only that it will be five months, but that it will be specific five months. It will be the five months of the locust. May through September. Ephesians 6 tells us the purpose that God's elect will be on earth, and it will be to fight against Satan, and those wicked spiritual powers. That is why you need the spiritual armor on and in place, for the warfare will be a spiritual battle, fought will words and ideas, it will be fought with the very word of God, for Satan will twist that Word, to make it a lie, when he and his forces use it against you. Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." The above two verses clearly state the time of Christ return which is after the tribulation,so I can't for the life of me see how the rapturist claim they will not go through it(tribulation) Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." The rider of this white horse is not the rider of the white horse who comes with a rainbow around his head, and a rainbow around the throne he leaves. This "bow" in the Greek is a cheap fabric, or imitation, In the Greek it's called "toxon". His grandeur will be cheap, yet convincing all of those who are looking for the rider of the "first horse" to fly them out of here. The Antichrist will offer them all they desire in fulfilling their wishes. So let me sum it all up we are now heading towards a one world system Revelation 13:1 "And I [John] stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." This is John's vision, and the sea that John is standing on and the beast is rising out of represents the masses of peoples of the world. This symbol of the "sea" being people is documented in Revelation 17:15. This "sea", or masses of people are looking to this "beast" [political beast] as their peace system. The "seven heads" are seven dominions of the people, or seven continents of this world body; as even the activities and divisions at the North and South Poles are governed through the United Nations Charter. It covers the entire world land masses. "Horns" are always symbolic of "power". These "ten horns" are ten agencies, or units of power flowing from this beast, or political system. These horns are the Military force, the world health organization, UNICEF for children, the world bank, the world court, and so on. This is very similar to the system of government given in Genesis 11, under Nimrod. Revelation 13:2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Though the one world political system is in place and functioning as a governing body, after it is considered reliable, something will come about to bring down that government. When satan comes as the antichrist he will heal the political systemfirst beast) and will become the head of this one world government. Bottom line is this you will either have the seal of God or you will receive the mark of the false one

Joyful · Jun 9, 2007

Bottom line is this you will either have the seal of God or you will receive the mark of the false one
Please forgive me for butting in. I believe the seal is symbolic; if we are faithful until end, we will have approval from Jesus and if we are not then we are not apporved for God's kingdom.

RND · Jun 9, 2007

(n2thelight;11444)
Though the one world political system is in place and functioning as a governing body, after it is considered reliable, something will come about to bring down that government.
The "one world system" is already here and has been here for at least 60 years.
When satan comes as the antichrist he will heal the political systemfirst beast) and will become the head of this one world government.
There is no "one" anti-christ. There are many.1 John 2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.One is against Christ should they deny the Father and the Son.1 John 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.Can it be any more clear than this? An "anti Christ" is someone who denies that Jesus Christ, the Son of our Most High God, has come in the flesh.
Bottom line is this you will either have the seal of God or you will receive the mark of the false one
The ecclesiastical mark of the Papacy - Sunday sacredness or the Seal of God in the forehead.The woman (church) that rides the political beast is the church with the spirit of Babylon - pagan Romanism.

Joyful · Jun 9, 2007

I would like to add that organizations or people who fight against Jesus are anti-Christ. I dont believe it is singular person who tries to control this world and people.

RND · Jun 9, 2007

(Faithful1;11456)
I would like to add that organizations or people who fight against Jesus are anti-Christ. I dont believe it is singular person who tries to control this world and people.
We sure do seem to be on the same page alot!

Joyful · Jun 9, 2007

(RND;11464)
We sure do seem to be on the same page alot!
I used to listen to Pastor Doug Batchelor and I agree with him in many things but not enough to join your organization.

RND · Jun 10, 2007

(Faithful1;11465)
I used to listen to Pastor Doug Batchelor and I agree with him in many things but not enough to join your organization.
No wonder we seem to agree so much!I love to listen to Pastor Doug...his insight, pleasant manner and down to earth teachings have helped me alot over the years! It's a blessing to know you agree with many of the things he speaks on. Makes my small contributions to Amazing Facts seem all the more worth while.Praise the Lord!

betchevy · Jun 10, 2007

There is no "one" anti-christ. There are many.1 John 2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.One is against Christ should they deny the Father and the Son.1 John 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.Can it be any more clear than this? An "anti Christ" is someone who denies that Jesus Christ, the Son of our Most High God, has come in the flesh. This is the post by RND and to it I say:it is written, “For there shall arise false Christs.” He did not say maybe, or perhaps, but “there shall arise false Christs.” Now in the english the “false Christs” are plural, but here is deception; for in the Greek the word is #5580 “pseudochristos” which equals a singular spur*ious messiah. Now what then did Christ really say in v. 24?... For there shall arise a false messiah, and false prophets, and “shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Again the sperma have decieved you by their translations...

Joyful · Jun 10, 2007

There are many, many symbols used in prophecy.

betchevy · Jun 10, 2007

Greek makes this very clear .... it is also clear that if you do not care or understand the the word has come under attack by these false prophets and you do not work to find the original languages, but instead look to the teachings of men you will continue in the false prophets ways and not understand the truth...Faithful this is not a symbol... its clearly a singular noun...

RND · Jun 10, 2007

(betchevy;11478)
This is the post by RND and to it I say:it is written, “For there shall arise false Christs.” He did not say maybe, or perhaps, but “there shall arise false Christs.”
Is anything I said in my post different than what you are suggesting here?
Now in the english the “false Christs” are plural, but here is deception; for in the Greek the word is #5580 “pseudochristos” which equals a singular spur*ious messiah. Now what then did Christ really say in v. 24?...
Except the problem you have here is putting a word into scripture that doesn't belong where you placed it.The word #5580 is not used in Matthew 24. The word used in these verses is #5578 - pseudoprophets and it is used three times. Once in verse 11 and twice in verse 24. Now, #5580 is used twice in scripture, once in: Matthew 26:59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;The word false here is translated to #5580.And once in:Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.#5580 is used for false Christs, #5578 is used for false prophets.I think this is a perfect illustration why it is important to buid a theology on the entirety of scripture and not one singular word or verse.
For there shall arise a false messiah, and false prophets, and “shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
While I agree that a"false messiah" will arise on earth it is important to note that he has come, is here now, and will continue until the return of Jesus. "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous". "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism. "Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
Again the sperma have decieved you by their translations...
And you have bought hook, line and sinker the utterly confusing and non-sensical teachings of Arnold Murray. (which, by the way, it where I got my Strong's from!) Arnold and Dennis Murray are the most confused pastor's in America. The "spurious messiah" is Rome. Always has been, and until Christ Jesus' return, always will be.

RND · Jun 10, 2007

(betchevy;11481)
Greek makes this very clear .... it is also clear that if you do not care or understand the the word has come under attack by these false prophets and you do not work to find the original languages, but instead look to the teachings of men you will continue in the false prophets ways and not understand the truth...Faithful this is not a symbol... its clearly a singular noun...
I suppose that explains why Arnold Murray, and for that matter most protestants, keep the sabbath of Rome and not the Biblical sabbath.Deception.

betchevy · Jun 10, 2007

You are the confused one here... your theology is based totally on the teaching of the SDA and not the Word of God, you do not have understanding of anything outside of its rhetoric... I do belong to Arnold and Dennis Murray's congregation, but unlike you have my own understanding and do NOT agree with them hook, line, or sinker , but only the Word and nothing but the Word.... I do stand by my reference number and my Strong's did not come from Shepherds Chapel...its a 1977 edition...Do you believe that the dead are in the ground awaiting resurrection of their flesh?That the churches in Revelations represent ages of time?That the Catholic Church will become the controlling beast of the end of time?That the earth is 6000 years old?That Adam and Eve were eating fruit in the garden?All this rhetoric and lies taught by the SDA .... and have been refuted and proved over and over again by many memebers here on this forum, yet you in your great knowledge and wisdom will not see? Hey, have a nice trip! but know, we do not accept lies taught by false prophets here.

RND · Jun 10, 2007

(betchevy;11484)
Do you believe that the dead are in the ground awaiting resurrection of their flesh?
Yes, see Daniel 12:2, Matthew 27:50-53 and John 6:39-40Lest what's the point of a resurrection?
That the churches in Revelations represent ages of time?
No, church history.
That the Catholic Church will become the controlling beast of the end of time?
Yes. They already are.And all the world wondered after the beast
That the earth is 6000 years old?
Physically, no. Metaphysically, yes. I also don't believe that death came before sin.Romans 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
That Adam and Eve were eating fruit in the garden?
Yes.I also don't believe there were more "souls" than eight that came out of the ark.1 Peter 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
All this rhetoric and lies taught by the SDA .... and have been refuted and proved over and over again by many memebers here on this forum, yet you in your great knowledge and wisdom will not see?
My, such venom! Venom comes fromsnakes doesn't it? Even when Michael was disputing with Satan over the bones of Moses he didn't bring such a railing accusation!
Hey, have a nice trip! but know, we do not accept lies taught by false prophets here.
Man, such vitirol! You sound extremely bitter, nasty and astonishingly rude.

betchevy · Jun 10, 2007

Thats funny for if you really want to see vitrol look at some of my past posts to say... EPO, I have not said anything vitrolic, nor rude, bitter or nasty... I guess if anyone doesn't agree with you they are falsely called by false names...hmmmm...sounds like some thing ssssssssomeone else might do... acussssssors often blow words and doctrines our to proportion... but its best to keep these disagreements off of personal levels... WHAT I DID SAY WAS... 1.You believe as you wish and suffer the consequences(have a nice trip) and 2. We don't tolerate false teaching around here...that's to protect the babes who come here to learn...notice, we come out against those non biblical posts....and if it gets too bad... its bye bye... and let me tell you this.. if you start personal attacks you could also, be banned, so lets keep this on purely a Biblical basis, okay?... I do not have any feelings toward you at all especially the ones you accuse me of... well, I guess I do one one...pity...

RND · Jun 10, 2007

(betchevy;11487)
Thats funny for if you really want to see vitrol look at some of my past posts to say... EPO,
So, does this mean you have been vitriolic in the past?
I have not said anything vitrolic, nor rude, bitter or nasty... I guess if anyone doesn't agree with you they are falsely called by false names...hmmmm...sounds like some thing ssssssssomeone else might do...
Well, if someone tells you that, "hey, you hurt my feelings" is that based on how they may feel or based on how you may feel? Your language sounded nasty and I let you know about it. I don't think your attacks against me here in this post, or in the other post are warranted.
acussssssors often blow words and doctrines our to proportion... but its best to keep these disagreements off of personal levels... WHAT I DID SAY WAS... 1.You believe as you wish and suffer the consequences(have a nice trip) and 2. We don't tolerate false teaching around here...that's to protect the babes who come here to learn...notice, we come out against those non biblical posts....and if it gets too bad... its bye bye... and
And I said that seems mean and spiteful. And seeing it the second time doesn't change things. It still appears vicious and spiteful.
let me tell you this.. if you start personal attacks you could also, be banned, so lets keep this on purely a Biblical basis, okay?...
Have I said anything to offend you? Have I attacked you personally?
I do not have any feelings toward you at all especially the ones you accuse me of... well, I guess I do one one...pity...
Why should you pity me? Am I not saved by my belief in Jesus Christ?

"The Antichrist" teaching is a myth

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