2,520 Days Of The Tribulation Feast Of Trumpets 2015 To Tisha B'av 2022

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noselfwilling

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Jan 26, 2011
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noselfwilling,

Is this not addressed to me?

"The problem why you don't feel this is because you don't read the book of Revelation properly, you don't have the blessing of Rev. 1.3. "

I am not haboring anything. I am the most peace-loving person you could meet. Perhaps I am new to this board and the culture of usage of words here is different but I am not new to such boards and forums and I sure have not met with such a response previously.

You seem to jump to conclusions for many things. I am just asking a simple question and hoping for a simple answer. If you do not understand my questions or the purpopse of my questions, a simple request for clarification would do.

But it's fine. I really appreciate your findings because they complement mine. So I will just lurk here and monitor what is going on.

Blessings,
KA
I was just answering your questions. It's nice to see a brother in Christ agrees with this. That makes one more. The Temple Institute now knows they have to break ground on the 3rd Temple during the Tetrad so it is completed no later than April 20, 2016 with 2300 days left into the Tribulation from April 21, 2016 to Aug. 7, 2022. Passover and dedication to the Temple with the red heifer and lamb will be after the 4 day inspection of the Lamb April 18-21, so that places Passover on April 22, 2016.

Hallelujah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7dUnD60wWE
 

noselfwilling

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Jan 26, 2011
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noselfwilling,

Sorry I do see a rapture happening Rev 4.1 when John is caught up. I do realize that you do not accept this as such. but I disagree with your interpretation.

Let's look at just one of the reasons that I believe this. Take the phrase, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches." This is a repeating phrase that is used quite often in the first few books of Revelations.

Rev 2:7 [sup]7[/sup]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:11 [sup]11[/sup]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 2:17 [sup]17[/sup]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Rev 2:29 [sup]29[/sup]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:6 [sup]6[/sup]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:13 [sup]6[/sup]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:22 [sup]22[/sup]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Now this phrase is said one more time in the bible, except with one slight change. The focus has switched from the churches to the Tribulation Saints. Look at the wording difference.

Rev 13:9-10 [sup]9[/sup]If any man have an ear, let him hear. <a name="10">[sup]10[/sup]He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches; to the churches; to the churches; to the churches; to the churches and yet when we actually get into the tribulation, it changes to talking about the saints, and there is not a mention of the church until when Rev 19.

Rev 19:7-9 [sup]7[/sup]Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [sup]8[/sup]And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[sup]9[/sup]And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And since this takes place before the Second coming, this is still in heaven.. Notice something here. The church is referred to here as the wife.. she is no longer the bride, but she is now the wife. So what has changed? The Marriage has been completed. Now it is ready for the Marriage supper.

Now I know that you do not believe this, and I am not really trying to change your mind, just telling you one of the reasons that I believe in the pre-trib rapture.

Joshua David

The marriage takes place at the end because it is the end of the Tribulation to enter the millennial reign with Christ, those that overcometh (Rev. 20.4) which is a small fraction of believers.

Notice that in Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 these are conditional statements for the first rapture according to readiness, so only those Christians who are watchful, prayerful and keep the word of His patience shall escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world. Therefore, the first rapture is not the whole Church just part of even just a small fraction perhaps only about 5 million are raptured alive at the first rapture.

Is the Church seen during the Tribulation period? Of course.

Revelation 1-3 speaks of the church. But it is believed by some after chapter 3 the church is no longer mentioned, so that she must have already been raptured by the time of chapter 4ff. (in the kingdom age, all will be righteousness and majesty; there will not be the patience of Christ). If chapters 1-3 refer to this age, chapters 4-19 will be the time of the Great Tribulation it is supposed, in which the church has no part. This kind of argument is called the argument from silence. However, we cannot say that from chapters 4 through 19 the church is never touched upon. Even though the word “church” is not used, many other descriptions employed do indeed fit the church, such as “didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation” (5.10), “the saints” (17.6), and “the armies which are in heaven” (19.14). Unquestionably the word “church” is not used, but who can say that those in view in the above examples do not belong to the church? Furthermore, “the things which must shortly come to pass” (including the Great Tribulation) are shown to “his servants” (22.6), and “these things” (including the Great Tribulation) are testified “for the churches” (22.16). These things will not be written if they are not relevant to the church and to the believers.

4.1 "AFTER THESE THINGS"​

On the basis of the words "After these things", some maintain that whatever is described in chapters 4 and 5 are events yet to be fulfilled, since these two chapters speak of the things which will happen at the time when the church shall be raptured and the Lord shall return immediately. Such an interpretation is most widely accepted, but it presents the following eight problems.

(1) If chapters 4 and 5 truly refer to "the things which shall come to pass hereafter", why should such a significant event as the rapture of the church not be mentioned? Rapture is touched upon in chapters 7, 12, 14 and 15 of this book. Why is it not referred to here? Some do suggest that the rapture of the church is implied in the words "Come up hither" (4.1), but are not these words followed immediately by "Straightway I was in the Spirit . . ." (v.2)? The rapture of the church is a bodily rapture, yet here it is in the Spirit. And thus this verse cannot be interpreted as referring to the rapture of the church. How can chapters 2 and 3 speak of the church and there not be a clear word given of her rapture immediately afterwards?

(2) If 4.1 indeed speaks of the rapture of the church, then where is the church seen in chapters 4 and 5? Some people advance the thought that the 24 elders in 4.4,10 and 5.8 represent the church. We shall prove later on that they do not represent the church. For the present we need only to ask one question: Why is it that not even one of the 24 elders is mentioned from 19.5 through chapter 22? Is it possible that the church is limited to the time of tribulation and to the enjoyment in the kingdom, but that she will not be heard of in the new heaven and the new earth? How can it be that she is seen at the beginning but she disappears at the end?

(3) Chapter 5 describes the glory which the Lamb receives in heaven. Can we say that the Lord must wait for about two thousand years before He will receive glory?

(4) The praise from every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth spoken of in 5.13 agrees perfectly with what Philippians 2.10 says. Due to His resurrection and ascension and His receiving the Name that is above all names, He is shown in such glory as is described in Philippians (2.9). How, then, can it be said that Revelation 5.13 describes a scene of two thousand years later?

(5) Why should the new song in 5.9 be sung two thousand years later? Has not the work of redemption already been done? Why cannot the new song be sung at once?

(6) "As though it had been slain" (5.6) is, in the original, rendered "as though it had been newly slain"—This clearly proves that this is the scene of the ascension of the Lord. Although the death of the Lord is forever fresh, the word here designates it as being newly slain.

(7) In 4.8 the four living creatures are recorded as saying: "The Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come"—Compare this with 11.17, where the 24 elders are found worshiping God and saying: "O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast"; in this latter instance the words "who is to come" are not said, thus intimating that the return of the Lord cannot be before 4.8 but after 4.8.

(8) In 5.6 it is said that the seven Spirits of God are "sent forth into all the earth"—May we not ask, then, what the Holy Spirit will be doing in the great tribulation as He is sent out into all the earth? We know that the Holy Spirit comes down after the ascension of the Lord Jesus. It is during the dispensation of the church that He is sent out by the Lord.

In view of these eight points, we may conclude that chapter 4 depicts the daily scene in God’s presence, which is the natural situation in heaven; while chapter 5 speaks of the sight of the Lord’s ascension, for in it we are told of "a Lamb standing, as though it had been [newly] slain" (5.6). This scene is repeated for the benefit of the apostle John—"After these things . . . a door opened in heaven" (4.1). This is not a continuation of the seven churches but rather is a sequel to the vision given in chapter 1.

"A door opened in heaven"—The heavens were opened to Ezekiel (1.1), to the Lord (Matt. 3.16), to Stephen (Acts 7.56), to Peter (Acts 10.11) and to John (Rev. 4.1, 19.11).

"And the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me"—It is not a trumpet blowing, but a voice as of a trumpet.

"Come up hither"—This word is spoken to John personally; it should not be interpreted as a type of the rapture of the church.

"I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter"—This serves as an introduction to the prophecies to follow.

4.2,3 THE THRONE​

4.2 "Straightway I was in the Spirit"—John was raptured in the spirit, it was not a bodily rapture.

"And behold, there was a throne set in heaven"—The throne is the heart of this book, it is also the focus of all things. The first thing to be seen, therefore, is the throne, since all the things which follow proceed from it. This is a different throne from that spoken of in the New Testament epistles. Hebrews 4, for example, speaks of the throne of grace—emphasizing the side of God’s grace. But this is the throne of judgment here—emphasizing the side of God’s righteousness.

"And one sitting upon the throne"—This one is none other than God.

4.3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper stone and a sardius"—The better translation for "jasper" is "diamond".
* Among precious stones, the one stone which resembles most the color of light is the diamond. It is unbreakable and most valued by mankind. It is formed out of carbon. Its light may be compared to the light of the gospel by which man is lifted out of darkness into marvelous light. "Sardius" has the most perfect red color. It therefore expresses the redemption of God, for blood is red in color. So, both of these precious stones, because of their colors, are used to represent both the light of the gospel and the redemption of God which is accomplished through the Lord Jesus.

[sup]* "This is not considered to be the same as the modern jasper, which is an opaque variety of quartz of many different colors. To what gem Scripture refers is not known. Some suppose the diamond."—A New and Concise Bible Dictionary (London: G. Morrish, n.d., p. 405).—Translator

[/sup]"And there was a rainbow round about the throne, like an emerald to look upon"—The rainbow usually viewed on earth is bow-shaped, but the rainbow here surrounds the throne. Now the rainbow is the sign of God’s covenant with Noah, for God is a keeper of covenant as well as the God of covenant (Gen. 9.12-16). Here in Revelation we find that God is going to execute judgment soon; nevertheless, He still keeps His covenant and remembers His promises and grace. The green of an emerald is like the green grass. It is a major color on earth. Hence it shows that in judgment God has grace and He remembers the earth. After the earth has passed through judgment, it gives forth green color (Gen. 8.11).

4.4 "THE TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS"​

The common interpretation of the 24 elders as given by most commentators is that they point to the entire glorious church. But do these commentators have sufficient proof for offering this interpretation? Recently some of them have quoted 4.4, saying that these elders have thrones and therefore they reign as kings; they also point out that in 5.8 these elders are shown as having harps and golden bowls full of incense, and hence they are priests. And does not 1 Peter 2.9 state that believers are "a royal priesthood"? Since these 24 elders are both kings and priests, surely, they conclude, these elders represent the glorious church.

According to this interpretation, therefore, the entire church must be raptured together and thus it does not go through the tribulation. But how, then, will 3.10 be explained? Furthermore, there are ten other reasons why the 24 elders do not represent one glorious church.

(1) The name of elder is not the name of the church. If the elders here point to the church, it will be almost like saying that the entire church is made up of elders. According to historical fact, God first chooses the angels (Is. 14.12; Ez. 28.11-19), then the Jews (Gen. 12.1-3), and thirdly the church (for it is formed in the time of Acts 2). Not only the church cannot be reckoned as elders, even the Jews are not to be considered as elders (the election mentioned in Ephesians 1.4 refers to the eternal purpose of God, and hence is quite different from the elect angels as mentioned in 1 Timothy 5.21).

(2) The number of the elders is not the number of the church. The church’s number in the Scriptures is seven or multiples of seven, but 24 is not such a multiple.

(3) The church cannot have the throne and the crown before the Lord Jesus has His. The one who sits on the throne as seen in 4.2 is God the Father (the Lamb is standing, according to 5.6). The 24 elders also sit on thrones, and they all wear crowns of gold as described in 4.4. If they represent the church, how can it be that the church sits while the Lamb stands? According to this interpretation, in 5.6 the church is already crowned. Yet please note that the Lord Jesus will not be King until the time of chapter 20 is reached! How can the church receive glory in advance of the Lord? Moreover, after 19.4 there is no more trace of the 24 elders. If these elders do indeed represent the entire church, what has happened to the glorious church thereafter?

(4) The white garments which the elders wear are not said to be cleansed by the precious blood; however, in another place (7.14) the white garments are said to have been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. The white garments here show that the elders are without sin.

(5) The song these elders sing is not that of redemption since the song in 4.11 tells of the creation of God. They thus know only God’s creation; they have no personal knowledge of God’s redemption. Though they do sing a new song as mentioned in 5.9-10, this is because the Lord has redeemed "them"—not these elders, but men of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

(6) All the phenomena in chapter 4 stand for the state of the universe. Besides the throne and the seven Spirits, there are the four living creatures and the 24 elders; none else is mentioned. This indicates that these elders are the elders of the universe. Can we possibly say that the church is the eldest in the universe?

(7) To carry prayers to God as is shown in 5.8 is not the action of the church. Even though the church is commanded in the Scriptures to pray for others, God has not asked her to bring others’ prayers to Him. The church does not have this power. Many commentators agree that the angel spoken of in 8.3-4 refers to the Lord. Whether or not it is the Lord, it can at least be said that the task of carrying prayers to God is done by angels. Thus, bringing prayers of the saints to God as mentioned in 5.8 must be a task done by the angels.

(8) Never once do the 24 elders identify themselves as the church. The "them" in 5.10 is a reference to the church by these elders. If the "them" were indeed an expression of self-identification, the elders should have instead said "us". What the elders do say clearly distinguishes them from the church. The 24 elders cannot represent the entire church. There are three classes of people in view in 7.13-17, namely: (1) elders, (2) John, and (3) those arrayed in white robes. Should the 24 elders be an allusion to part of the church, it would still make some sense for the elders to ask John, "Who are they, and whence came they [those in white robes]?" But if the 24 elders mean the entire church, it would be absurd for the entire church to ask concerning part of the church.

(9) John addresses one of the elders as "my lord" (7.13-17), thus showing the superior position of the elder over John. Otherwise how could the elder permit John to call him "my lord"? (cf. 22.8-9)

(10) The demeanor of the 24 elders before God is most peculiar. They have never been hungry and thirsty like the church nor have they ever shed any tears. They are not afraid of God, neither do they possess any sense of sin. They are strangers to the experience of being redeemed. All these points prove that they are not the redeemed church.

Who, then, are these elders? Let us assume that they are the kings and priests among the angels, that they are the elders of the universe (that is to say, they rule over the angels and the universe in God’s service). The evidences for such a conclusion are as follows.

(1) Since they sit on thrones and wear crowns of gold, they must be kings.

(2) They wear white garments which are the garments of the priests (see Ex. 28; Lev. 6.10, 16.4). They have harps, sing songs, and hold golden bowls of incense—all these are evidences of their priesthood.

(3) The reason they are the priests among the angels is because they are the elders of the universe. In chapters 4 and 5 God is God, the Lord is the Lamb, the Holy Spirit is the seven Spirits, the four living creatures represent the animate creation, and the 24 elders are the elders of the universe since they are the oldest among created things.

(4) Besides the angels, who are entitled to sit on thrones and wear golden crowns ahead of the Lord Jesus? God had originally appointed angels to govern the universe. But one of the archangels fell and turned himself into Satan, there thus coming into existence the satanic kingdom. As to those angels who had not followed Satan in rebellion, God still assigns them the rule over the universe. Now just as Michael is the chief prince over the nation of Israel (Dan. 10.13), even so, all of us who are redeemed have our guardian angels (Acts 12.15; Matt. 18.10; Heb. 1.14). The 24 elders sit while the seven angels who blow the trumpets stand before God (8.2). They are now in charge of the universe. When they see people getting saved they are not jealous at all; rather, they praise God for it. They will govern the universe until the kingdom shall come; and then they will resign their appointments and there will be the transfer of the government of the universe to men (Rev. 11.16-18; Heb. 2.5-8). This is why there is no mentioning of the 24 elders after 19.4.

(5) The number of the 24 elders is the number of the priesthood. At the time of David the priesthood was divided into 24 courses (1 Chron. 24.7-18). The duty of the priesthood is to bring the prayers of the saints to God. The harps are for singing, and the golden bowls are for prayers.
[sup][/sup]


For an overabundance of many more reasons why there is no rapture of the Church until Rev. 7.9 read here,

http://www3.telus.ne...ial_rapture.htm

We want not to assume anything. If you start off with an assumption dangers follow.
 

Joshua David

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Feb 10, 2011
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Allow me to comment on some of your points.

The name of elder is not the name of the church. If the elders here point to the church, it will be almost like saying that the entire church is made up of elders.

Must as the entire church is said to be made up of Kings and Priests, wouldn't you say?

The church cannot have the throne and the crown before the Lord Jesus has His. The one who sits on the throne as seen in 4.2 is God the Father (the Lamb is standing, according to 5.6). The 24 elders also sit on thrones, and they all wear crowns of gold as described in 4.4. If they represent the church, how can it be that the church sits while the Lamb stands? According to this interpretation, in 5.6 the church is already crowned. Yet please note that the Lord Jesus will not be King until the time of chapter 20 is reached! How can the church receive glory in advance of the Lord? Moreover, after 19.4 there is no more trace of the 24 elders. If these elders do indeed represent the entire church, what has happened to the glorious church thereafter?


Just because the lamb is shown as standing does not mean that Jesus is not right now sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Col 3:1-4 [sup]1[/sup]If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. [sup]2[/sup]Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. [sup]3[/sup]For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [sup]4[/sup]When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

(4) The white garments which the elders wear are not said to be cleansed by the precious blood; however, in another place (7.14) the white garments are said to have been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. The white garments here show that the elders are without sin.

It is not said how they were cleansed. This too is an vague argument from silence. Hey isn't that the same type of argument that you say the pre-trib users use?

If chapters 1-3 refer to this age, chapters 4-19 will be the time of the Great Tribulation it is supposed, in which the church has no part. This kind of argument is called the argument from silence.
And you even bolded it. How nice of you. You wouldn't be guilty of a double standard now would you?

(5) The song these elders sing is not that of redemption since the song in 4.11 tells of the creation of God. They thus know only God’s creation; they have no personal knowledge of God’s redemption. Though they do sing a new song as mentioned in 5.9-10, this is because the Lord has redeemed "them"—not these elders, but men of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Well let's see.. Just because they elders sing a song praising God for his creation does not mean they have no personal knowledge of God's redemption. Now as far as the 'them' is concerned. Could you please explain why you used the word 'them'. I guess I can certainly count you out of the KJV only crowd. Since the KJV uses the word "us". I know why some people use the word 'them' I was just wondering if you did. Be that as it may, even if the original word was them, It would not disclude the church. The song of redemption is similar to the song that moses sings right after God saved them. Notice carefully that while Moses gives credit

Exodus 15:12-17 [sup]12[/sup]Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. [sup]13[/sup]Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
[sup]14[/sup]The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

[sup]15[/sup]Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. <a name="16">
[sup]16[/sup]Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
[sup]17[/sup]Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

(6) All the phenomena in chapter 4 stand for the state of the universe. Besides the throne and the seven Spirits, there are the four living creatures and the 24 elders; none else is mentioned. This indicates that these elders are the elders of the universe. Can we possibly say that the church is the eldest in the universe?

Where do you get the elders of the universe? There is nothing in the bible that even hints of anything of the sort even existing.

(10) The demeanor of the 24 elders before God is most peculiar. They have never been hungry and thirsty like the church nor have they ever shed any tears. They are not afraid of God, neither do they possess any sense of sin. They are strangers to the experience of being redeemed. All these points prove that they are not the redeemed church.

Where do you get that they have never been hungry or thirsty or that they have never shed any tears.. I believe that you are reading too much into it to fit your interpretation. You are using circular logic. You say that these are not the church so they must be Elders of the universe, then you say that because they are elders of the universe, they have never suffered thirst, hunger, or shed tears, and then you close the circle by saying that since they have never suffered hunger or thirst then this all proves that they are not the redeemed church.

This proves nothing except that you are adept at circular logic.

Joshua David
 

noselfwilling

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Jan 26, 2011
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Must as the entire church is said to be made up of Kings and Priests, wouldn't you say?
No. Even during the 1000 year reign when Jesus returns only a small portion of the Church are kings and priests (Rev. 20.4). The body of Christ is a royal priesthood, but so too are the eldest angels, the archangels of the universe. Priesthood is that of administration like the 24 courses, but who can say the Church has such ruling power today? We are rejected by the world, sojourners. But the Archangels are still ruling and performing their priestly duties like taking up the prayers of the saints to God the Father.

Just because the lamb is shown as standing does not mean that Jesus is not right now sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Col 3:1-4 [sup]1[/sup]If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. [sup]2[/sup]Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. [sup]3[/sup]For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [sup]4[/sup]When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
Jesus is indeed sitting now, but when He returns He is standing, so how can God be standing when the Church is seated?

It is not said how they were cleansed. This too is an vague argument from silence. Hey isn't that the same type of argument that you say the pre-trib users use? And you even bolded it. How nice of you. You wouldn't be guilty of a double standard now would you?
It is not said they are cleansed at all, for they need no cleaning. I don't think it is an argument from silence for while the church in later chapters has its robes washed the precious blood, such a statement left out if the whole church was raptured before the Tribulation if it is based on redemption is an important thing to leave out which YOU ADMIT is left out. But I do not concede to you the Church is left out in subsequent chapters of Revelation, citing several verses of the Church's presence. While we are both applying the argument from silence, I have data that supports your argument from silence is not correct because the church is recorded in subsequent chapters.

Well let's see.. Just because they elders sing a song praising God for his creation does not mean they have no personal knowledge of God's redemption. Now as far as the 'them' is concerned. Could you please explain why you used the word 'them'. I guess I can certainly count you out of the KJV only crowd. Since the KJV uses the word "us". I know why some people use the word 'them' I was just wondering if you did. Be that as it may, even if the original word was them, It would not disclude the church. The song of redemption is similar to the song that moses sings right after God saved them. Notice carefully that while Moses gives credit

Exodus 15:12-17 [sup]12[/sup]Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. [sup]13[/sup]Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
[sup]14[/sup]The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
[sup]15[/sup]Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. <a name="16">
[sup]16[/sup]Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
[sup]17[/sup]Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.
I use "them" because most Bible versions use "them" and because obviously the saints don't bring up their own prayers to heaven, but that is the work of the angels, so the angels are praising "them," that is the redeemed ones. It is not that the angels have no knowledge of redemption, but they have no personal knowledge of redemption for themselves, for there is no need for it. I have another reason also since the if they were the saints they would be exalting themselves which is selfish too me. We should be looking unto God not self. I acknowledge the the similarity of the song of Moses, but the real key is Rev. 5.8: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

Who holds the prayers of the saints? The 24 elders and the 4 beasts holding the prayers of believers in "golden vials full of orders." You'll find every question you put forward is already answered in the above proof given. You and I as saints do bring up our prayers to God. That's the job of the Angels. This is the sweet proof the elders are archangels.

Where do you get the elders of the universe? There is nothing in the bible that even hints of anything of the sort even existing.
Use simple logic. Just as their is a heirarchy of fallen angels and demonic spirits, so too is there in the realm of the angels that did not fall. At the top of the pyramid as it where, you would have your key angels, one of which is Michael. Michael is the only archangel mentioned in the Bible. Maybe he is the one John was speaking to when he spoke to one of the 24 archangels. Anyway, Lucifer, of course was an archangel, but fell and became Satan, so to maintain the 24 he was replaced by Michael for Israel. The key thing to realize is 24 is the number of priestly administration in the 24 courses, so if it is like on earth as we are told it is in heaven then there are 24 archangels. Hence, we come to deeply understand who the 24 elders are finally in Rev. 4 . Praise the Lord!

God likes it when we think things through a bit.

Where do you get that they have never been hungry or thirsty or that they have never shed any tears.. I believe that you are reading too much into it to fit your interpretation. You are using circular logic. You say that these are not the church so they must be Elders of the universe, then you say that because they are elders of the universe, they have never suffered thirst, hunger, or shed tears, and then you close the circle by saying that since they have never suffered hunger or thirst then this all proves that they are not the redeemed church.

This proves nothing except that you are adept at circular logic.

Joshua David
Suffice it to say we never ever find the elders in Rev. 4 to be hungry, thirsty, or shed tears. Perhaps they should have done so if it was the Church when Jesus was newly slain in Rev. 5, but they never did. Since the 24 elders can't be the church and every indication in the list tells us they are the 24 archangels then they are, taking up the prayers of the saints and not the church taking up its own prayers. That's not how things work in God's universe. It's clear that if they sufferred, were hungry or thirsty they could be the church, but because they never do, that they don't is in favor of them being the archangels.

Obviously my argument did not follow according to your circular argument method, since I don't present the case that way.

Allow me to comment on some of your points.
Allow me to summarize.

Revelation 4.1-4 Interpreters of this first school consider Revelation 2 and 3 as depicting the sage of the church; 4.1 as referring to the rapture of the church; 4.4 (with the 24 elders) as representing the glorified church after the rapture; and chapters 5 and 6 as having reference to the beginning of the Great Tribulation. But 4.1 is not spoken to the whole church. It is only spoken to John. “Come up hither” is an accomplished fact in the personal experience of John on the isle of Patmos. Otherwise, Philip’s experience as recorded in Acts 8.29 might also be taken as signifying the rapture of the whole church. As regards the 24 elders, it is rather absurd to deem them as signifying the glorified church, for the following reasons(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.

(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?

(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.

(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.

(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?

(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.

(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God. (My favorite proof)

(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church. (Particularly fond of this one too)

(9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders. (Indeed!)

(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.
 

Joshua David

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Ok it seems as if we are going around in circles. I do see your points, but I don't accept them. I do not believe in a partial rapture, and I do not believe that the 24 elders are angels, for angels are never said to wear crowns. Since these elder's are wearing crowns they can't be angels. And we can go back and forth and back and forth. Suffice to say that you made your point, and I understand why you believe partly the way you do.


But let's take a look at the partial rapture theory as a whole.


Let me ask you some questions as we explore this topic a little.. Feel free to supply your own answers,especially if you disagree, but so that we don't have to wait, allow me to answer the questions as well.


Is there any believer that is righteous on their own? No. All of our righteousness comes from our standing in Christ. Didn't Paul say that inside of him, which is to say his flesh there is no good thing. Which one of us can say that they live their lives completely without sin? Even though we have the Holy Spirit inside of us, we still struggle with our sin nature. Did not Paul himself say, that he doesn't do the things that he really wants to do, and the things that he doesn't want to do, those are the things that he does? Now if one of the greatest apostles, if the human author of over half of the new testament still struggles with his sin nature, wouldn't you say that it is a pretty good bet that we all struggle with it as well?

So we know that the Believer is not righteous on his own. But we know that the Believer is righteous, and not only righteous but perfect.

Heb 10:12-14 [sup]12[/sup]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [sup]13[/sup]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [sup]14[/sup]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Who are sanctified? We all are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. When we recognize our sinful condition, and our need for a savior, once we accept Jesus' sacrifice as the only payment for our sins and therefore accept him as our Lord and Savior, then we are Justified by his Spirit and the Holy Spirit begins to perform a work of Sanctification within us. But the main point that I am making is that if you are born again, if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, if you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, then you are not only righteous by having Jesus' Righteousness imputed to you, but you are made perfect in God's sight.

Does that mean that we no longer sin? Of course not. As long as we struggle with the sin nature we will struggle with sinning. But when we receive our Glorified bodies, then we will be finally rid of our cursed sin natures, and lose all desire to sin.

But when God looks at us, he does not see our sin, he sees the righteousness of his Son. He sees us as being perfect, for that is the only condition that would allow us to enter into his presence. This perfecting is what the rent veil was all about. Do you think that the veil was to protect God? NO! The veil in the temple was to protect man, because sinful man can not enter into the presence of God and not be destroyed. Even the High Priest had to be perfectly ceremonially clean, and even then he had to burn the incense which covered the mercy seat with smoke.

Oh but the grace of God. Through the blood of Christ, we are now able to enter into the presence of God. Why? Because we are better than they were? No. Only because the blood of Jesus has made us perfect, and that is why we are able to enter into his presence.

So if God sees his bride as being perfect, and that perfection is not based on our deeds, or our works, or our own righteousness, but on Christ's Deeds, on Christ's Works, and on Christ's Righteousness, how then can you say that when he comes he will not take his entire bride. Does that mean that he is going to take everyone who claims to be a Christian? No. There are plenty of Christians who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, who have never really accepted him as BOTH Lord and Savior, and do not have his Holy Spirit living in them. But if they are truly born again, then when Jesus comes to collect his Bride, you can rest assured that he will not leave anyone who is his behind.

Joshua David
 

noselfwilling

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Ok it seems as if we are going around in circles. I do see your points, but I don't accept them. I do not believe in a partial rapture, and I do not believe that the 24 elders are angels, for angels are never said to wear crowns. Since these elder's are wearing crowns they can't be angels. And we can go back and forth and back and forth. Suffice to say that you made your point, and I understand why you believe partly the way you do.

You would have to overturn the conditional statements in Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 for the first rapture according to readiness "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9). I haven't seen you do that yet. These angels have crowns crowns because they are not any angels, but the 24 archangels of which Satan use to be one when he was Lucifer, and Michael is an archangel. They are the ruling party in heaven. Nowhere does it say in the Bible the archangels can't wear crowns. You've asserted something you have no evidence for. But since they reign as the archangels do, naturally they were crowns. Crowns are indication of kingship and they are certainly the eldest elders of the universe.

I haven't seen you address anywhere that these 24 elders take up the prayers of the saints to heaven; this is not something the Church does. We don't take up our own prayers to heaven, but the angels do this for us in the vials. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). It's really important you don't shut your mind down to this. I am not sure how the text could be any clearer these elders are therefore angels, specifically 24 archangels and the 4 four beasts whom are representatives of all creation in for animal classes (we can get into that later if you like).

Oh but the grace of God. Through the blood of Christ, we are now able to enter into the presence of God. Why? Because we are better than they were? No. Only because the blood of Jesus has made us perfect, and that is why we are able to enter into his presence.
There is a firstfruits and a later harvest. We whom are in Christ all overcometh, but not at the same time. Hence, the 7 churches are called to overcometh, but obviously in such a declaration some do not overcometh, otherwise there would be no need to call us to overcometh. Hence, we see consequences to not overcoming as God would have us: 1) not being received at the first rapture, because you did not keep the word of His patience to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10), and 2) you won't return with Christ to reign in the 1000 years because you are like one of the 5 unwise virgins who did not fill up their lamps with oil of the Holy Spirit.

You're confusing the righteousness of Christ that we are clothed with to be able to come before the Father and the consequences of a Christian being fleshly. Paul was seeking the first resurrection which is an "out-resurrection" to be included in Rev. 20.4 to reign during the 1000 years as well as the first rapture, for he mentioned there are firstfruits and a later harvest (1 Cor. 15.23, 1 Thess. 4.14-18) and there are some other passages that are really good,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm. I like how Paul said in 1 Thess. 4 those who are "alive" and "left" which is redundant, for obviously those who are alive are left. What is meant is those who were not first raptured "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the first trumpet of the Tribulation (8.7ff) would be included in those who are left. I highly encourage you read through the "Partial Rapture Proof". Expand your horizons.

So if God sees his bride as being perfect, and that perfection is not based on our deeds, or our works, or our own righteousness, but on Christ's Deeds, on Christ's Works, and on Christ's Righteousness, how then can you say that when he comes he will not take his entire bride. Does that mean that he is going to take everyone who claims to be a Christian? No. There are plenty of Christians who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, who have never really accepted him as BOTH Lord and Savior, and do not have his Holy Spirit living in them. But if they are truly born again, then when Jesus comes to collect his Bride, you can rest assured that he will not leave anyone who is his behind.

Joshua David
That's a false statement you need to repent of to say there are Christians going to Hell. A Christian is defined as a member of the body of Christ who shall never perish. So you are dead wrong when you said, "There are plenty of Christians who do not have..." You can be rest assurred when Jesus returns there is a first rapture according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, 7.9, 11.15, 12.15, 14.14-16) and a later harvest according to completion (14.14-16, 1 Thess. 4.15-17).

You're again confusing our secure redemption clothed with Christ and mingling it with rewards. They are not the same thing. Though it is true a Christian can't lose eternal life, he can certainly lose the rewards, for there a consequences for Christians who lie on a bed of fornication, want to be antinomian such as yourself, and are like a balloon tied down to the world unwilling to be released. God does not write blank cheques. He is realistic and there are consequences. To deny this is to deny being a Christian and worship a false Christ. There are hundreds if not thousands of verses alling believers to overcometh.

I think you will find it interesting the bride in Rev. 19 is not the same bride of the whole Church. 19.7 Who is this “wife” of the Lamb? It cannot be the church for the following reasons:
(1) The great multitude spoken of in 19.1 includes the saved among the children of Israel as well as from among the nations. The church is definitely included. Since it is the great multitude who proclaims the words found in 19.7, the church must therefore be included among those who make such a proclamation. And hence the wife must point to someone else.

(2) In the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25.1-13), only the five wise virgins (and therefore not all who are in the church, for notice that all ten are virgins) are privileged to attend the marriage feast.

(3) This wife of the Lamb is different from the bride in Paul’s epistles. For she whom Paul speaks of is clothed with Christ, whereas the wife here is clothed with her own righteousnesses. In Paul’s epistles the church as a whole is viewed as the bride of Christ. In Revelation, the church is considered according to her components (advanced party vs. non-overcomer party), therefore the responsibility of the church before God is stressed. In Paul’s epistles the church is accepted in Christ, but in Revelation the church is accepted in her works. In Paul’s epistles the church in totality belongs to Christ, while in Revelation she is divided into the saved and the overcomers. All believers are saved but not all believers are overcomers. We all overcome who are in Christ but not at the same time. Let us be realistic about this for only those who overcometh reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26).

This wife of the Lamb is none other than the New Jerusalem (21.9,10).

God is now in His holy temple, so that the voices of praise from the great multitude come also from the temple. During the millennial kingdom the overcomers shall be kings in the city and priests in the temple. But the temple shall gradually lose its prominence until it totally disappears, for God and the Lamb will be the temple in New Jerusalem in the new heaven and the new earth.

Of the church, some (for example, the five wise virgins) will attend the marriage feast, while some (for example, the five foolish virgins) will not be able to attend the marriage feast. Considering your take on you I can be 100% certain you will not return with Christ to reign over the nations for the 1000 years. At worst your antinomian stance indicates that you might not even be born again, one of those wou talked about who claim to be Christian but are not because you never truly gave your life to Christ unto regeneration.




 

Charlie

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There is not a long break between the 5th and 6th Seals, they are right next to each other as tight as could be. There is a lock tumbler here. The 6 Seals are the past 20 centuries. There is an interjection in Rev. 7. Then the 7th Seal opens up the 7 Trumpets of the Tribulation. Again, there is an interjection in Rev. 10 before the 7th Trumpt so the 7th Trumpet pours out of the 7 bowls of wrath. Finally there is an interjection in Rev. 16 before the 7th bowl is poured.

Charlie -- - Thank you for your post and the correction . The long break is between seals 6 and 7 and the preceding break is a change in view from the altar in heaven to the earth.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'lock number' but the seals are all still future. The world has not been undergoing universal wars at any time since the first century.

By the way, the vials will be poured out by the 7 angels of Rev.15:1 and the break between the 6th and 7the vials will be when the spirits of devils call the nations to Armageddon. It has nothing to do with the events of the 7th trumpet, Rev,11:15-19 .

God Bless you. Charlie
 

Joshua David

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You would have to overturn the conditional statements in Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 for the first rapture according to readiness "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9). I haven't seen you do that yet.


Then let's get down to brass tacks.. Since you love demanding that I give evidence I shall, and I will hold you to the same standard. Now as far as Matthew, Luke are concerned. Both of these statements were made to the Jews before the Church was even established. The Mystery of the church wasn't established until after the crucification. Therefore these statements were not for the church. They were stated while the Age of Law was still in effect and more importantly, before the mystery of the Church was revealed. Matthew and Luke was not directed to the church, there were directed to the Jews and the Gentiles that will make up the Tribulation Saints. Not only that but both Matthew and Luke do not mention anything about overcoming but only to stay away because the will not know when the Lord will return.


Now as far as Rev 3 is concerned. Let's look at the letters to the churches. In the letters we find a common phrase which is, "to him that overcomes" Let's take a look as some scriptures to really see that that phrase means.


The first time we see the word overcome in reference to believers is in John 16.


John 16:33 [sup]33[/sup]These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


So we find here that Jesus is the overcomer and he tells us this to encourage us. He tells us to be of good cheer for HE has overcome the world. Paul tells us to overcome evil with good in Romans
Romans 12:21 [sup]21[/sup]Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


But of all the New Testament authors that one that uses this word the most is John. So let's see how he defines this word overcome.


1 John 2:14 [sup]14[/sup]I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


1 John 5:4-5 [sup]4[/sup]For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [sup]5[/sup]Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


What are the scriptures saying? They are saying that we overcome the evil one, the spirit of the antichrist, and the world. And how do we overcome them? Through faith, by believing that Jesus is the Son of God. Now since we are addressing specifically the letters to the churches in the book of Revelations let's look at the word overcomes as it relates to the churches. In the book of Revelations the word is used in each of the seven letters to describe those who resist or reject the religious sin for which the church was being criticized for or remaining true to the gospel.


Overcomers in Ephesus - By the end of the first century the Church had already become so busy doing religious works that they had forgotten that the work was done and our primary purpose is to worship the Lord and give Him thanks. The relationship He gave His life to have with us was already becoming another religion. Those who changed their attitude and overcame the human tendency to earn our position with God, and rested in the fact that Jesus did it all would meet Him at the Tree of life in paradise. The overcomer was the one who rested in faith and worshiped God.


Overcomers in Smyrna - The ten days referred to here are the reign of 10 Caesars, which lasted for 250 years, through the third Century. During this time Christians were persecuted relentlessly. Many were called upon to give their lives for their faith. The Lord offered no escape from this except that which comes from death. But those who remained faithful in believing His promise of everlasting life, received it. The overcomer died in faith and received life.


Overcomers in Pergamum - In the 4th Century the church was married to the pagan Babylonian religion, and practices that were not only un-Biblical but detestable to the Lord became common. The Lord threatened to fight these practices with the sword of His Mouth, which is his Word. The overcomers were those who stayed true to the unadulterated Gospel and lived by faith in its promises. They received the Bread of Life, and a token that would commend them to the Father in the name of the Son.


Overcomers in Thyatira - The illicit marriage of the Church to Babylon produced four children, all alive on Earth today. Thyatira represents the Catholic Church, the first child. It became wealthy by confiscating property through false accusation, like Jezebel had, and also instituted the sale of indulgences that authorized licentious practices for a fee. But to those who hold Jesus in their hearts and reject the traditions that would add to what He accomplished on the cross, Jesus promises salvation. They haven’t learned Satan’s secrets of Jesus plus Mary, Grace plus works, Scripture plus sacraments, and have overcome, living by faith alone.


Overcomers in Sardis - The Protestant Church, represented by Sardis, carried out the Lord’s threat to judge the Church’s practices by the Sword of His Mouth. The call of the reformation was “Sola fides (only through faith), sola gratia (Only by grace), solus Christus (only with Christ), and sola Scriptura (Only His Word).” For the first time, the Bible was available to all who could read it. Great seminaries were founded to teach pastors the Word of God. But into these seminaries the devil crept, and the authority of God’s word was challenged. It was all in the name of intellectualism so it was thought to be good, but soon the Gospel had been robbed of its power, the light of faith had gone out, the Spirit was quenched, and the people had been lulled to sleep.Many still are asleep, but there are a few who remember the Gospel and cling to it. They’ve repented of the Documentary Hypothesis, Modern Rationalism, and all the rest. They’ve overcome what Walter Martin called the Cult of Liberalism and have retained the power of the Gospel. They’ve been washed in the Blood of the Lamb and been given clean clothes. Their names have been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, and He will never blot them out.

Overcomers in Philadelphia - “Hold on to what you have,” the Lord commands the Evangelical Church, “because I’m coming soon. And because you’ve waited patiently for me, I’ll keep you from the hour of trial that’s going to test the whole world.”

And what do we have to hold on to? We have His Word, His name, and His promise. He’s coming soon. There are 5 crowns mentioned in the New Testament, to which believers should aspire. But here the Lord mentioned only one. Which one? I think it’s the one described in 2 Tim. 4:8, the Crown of Righteousness, for those who’ve longed for His appearance. Who but the Bible believing, prophecy studying Evangelical Church can even qualify for this crown, and which one is more descriptive of the yearning in our hearts?

Overcomers in Laodicea - Here’s the fourth child, the End Times Apostate Church. Prosperous and in need of nothing. They like to call themselves followers of Christ, not just believers, and the focus is definitely on doing. Hardly anyone hears His knock on the door, which means He’s standing outside trying to get in. To those who overcome this mad rush to conquer a world beyond saving, in the name of a Jesus many of them don’t know, in the hope of accomplishing something He doesn’t want, to those who hear the knock and invite Him into their heart to kindle the fires of faith, He will give the right to sit with Him on his throne.

So what is required to overcome? Faith in Jesus and his finished work on the Cross. If you have this then you have overcome and are a part of the bride, if you don't then you may be part of the group that cries Lord, Lord, but Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you.

I hope that answer is sufficient for you. I will work on asking for your evidence next.

Until then,

Joshua David

 

noselfwilling

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Charlie -- - Thank you for your post and the correction . The long break is between seals 6 and 7 and the preceding break is a change in view from the altar in heaven to the earth.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'lock number' but the seals are all still future. The world has not been undergoing universal wars at any time since the first century.

By the way, the vials will be poured out by the 7 angels of Rev.15:1 and the break between the 6th and 7the vials will be when the spirits of devils call the nations to Armageddon. It has nothing to do with the events of the 7th trumpet, Rev,11:15-19 .

God Bless you. Charlie
There is no long break stated or observed between the 5th and 6th Seal or from the 6th Seal to the 7th Seal. The 5th and 6th Seals occur shortly before the Tribulation and the 7th Seal opens up the 7 Trumpets of the Tribulation. Since the first century, "ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet" (Matt. 24.6). This agrees perfectly with the 4th Seal. "Take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6,4,8).

The 7 bowls are the 7th trumpet. "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (Rev. 11.18). Revelation chapters 7 to 11 give the major points of the 7 year Tribulation, while John is told to preach again in Rev. 10 to give the details from Rev. 12.1 to 19.21. This approach is similar to how Genesis 2 gives the details of Genesis 1.
 

noselfwilling

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Then let's get down to brass tacks.. Since you love demanding that I give evidence I shall, and I will hold you to the same standard. Now as far as Matthew, Luke are concerned. Both of these statements were made to the Jews before the Church was even established. The Mystery of the church wasn't established until after the crucification. Therefore these statements were not for the church. They were stated while the Age of Law was still in effect and more importantly, before the mystery of the Church was revealed. Matthew and Luke was not directed to the church, there were directed to the Jews and the Gentiles that will make up the Tribulation Saints. Not only that but both Matthew and Luke do not mention anything about overcoming but only to stay away because the will not know when the Lord will return.

These are words of overcoming and the Church doesn't have to be formed to make it so. Jesus is allowed to speak of end-times and the way of escaping these things that are to come upon the whole world. As well Jesus is allowed to speak of the Church even though Pentecost hasn't started yet. If we are to have no word from Jesus about the Church then we are left empty. Since Matthew 24.32-Matthew 25.30 are pertaining to the Church then Matt. 24.40-42 is within that purview to be "taken" at the first rapture and not "left" (1 Thess. 4.15-17.

Would Jesus address them to hold fast to their Lord if they were not believers in Matt. 24.40-42?

(1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

(2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.

(3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experienced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

What are the scriptures saying? They are saying that we overcome the evil one, the spirit of the antichrist, and the world. And how do we overcome them? Through faith, by believing that Jesus is the Son of God. Now since we are addressing specifically the letters to the churches in the book of Revelations let's look at the word overcomes as it relates to the churches. In the book of Revelations the word is used in each of the seven letters to describe those who resist or reject the religious sin for which the church was being criticized for or remaining true to the gospel.
We who are in Christ have overcome on the basis of His precious blood, but then we are told to "overcometh" for those who in Christ who have overcometh will receive various rewards, e.g. Rev. 2.26 shall reign over the nations. Therefore, if you don't overcometh, you won't return with Christ during the 1000 years. Likewise, if you don't overcometh, you won't escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world because you did keep the word of His patience.

Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of’ (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

Overcomers in Ephesus - By the end of the first century the Church had already become so busy doing religious works that they had forgotten that the work was done and our primary purpose is to worship the Lord and give Him thanks. The relationship He gave His life to have with us was already becoming another religion. Those who changed their attitude and overcame the human tendency to earn our position with God, and rested in the fact that Jesus did it all would meet Him at the Tree of life in paradise. The overcomer was the one who rested in faith and worshiped God.


2.1-7 THE CHURCH IN EPHESUS
2.1 “Write”—John serves as the Lord’s secretary. He is to record what the Lord has said.

“The church in Ephesus”—The church has two different aspects: one is the mystic church, the other is the local church. One is the body of Christ, the other is the house of God. The churches referred to in these two chapters are the churches in each locality. Great is the distinction between “the church in Ephesus” and “the church of Ephesus”, for the church only sojourns at Ephesus, it does not belong to Ephesus. For this reason, names such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Chinese Church, and so forth are unscriptural.

“To the angel”—This letter to Ephesus is addressed to the messenger. How very different is this from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. There Paul wrote to all the believers, whereas here, due to the departures from earthly life or declensions in spiritual life, only the messenger was able to receive this letter. A comparison of the two letters will further reveal the great difference in that church’s situation then and now. Ephesus has indeed “loosened” itself, has drawn back, and been damaged.

The Lord shows forth himself to this church as the one “that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, he that walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks” so as to cause the church in Ephesus and its messenger to know that He possesses full authority and examines all His churches.

2.2,3 These are words of commendation by the Lord. What He commends touches three perspectives. (1) Regarding themselves: (a) Works—they must have had good works; (B) Toil—they must have labored diligently; and © Patience—they had the parent’s heart so as to bear and forbear the weaknesses of other people. (2) Regarding the management of the church: (a) They do not bear evil men (cf. 1 Cor. 5); and (B) They do not accept workers carelessly—nay, they even test the apostles. All this shows that they have spiritual discernment. (3) Regarding the world: They patiently bear for the Lord’s name and do not grow weary. From this description we might conclude that the church in Ephesus is most perfect.

2.4 Though the church in Ephesus looks so good, the Lord nevertheless has something against her; she has lost her first love. We may wonder how a truly working church can be so lacking in inward love towards the Lord. Yet experience tells us that there may be outside activities even though the first love within is already lost. The “first love” is the best and most perfect love.

The question may be raised, How is the first love lost? (1) It may be due to an over-emphasis on works rather than on loving the Lord. (2) It may be due to disobedience to the Lord (John 15.10).

Herein are we shown that what the Lord requires is our love towards Him. If there are toil and spiritual knowledge and yet there is no love, all is useless (1 Thess. 1.2,3; 1 Cor. 13.2).

2.5 The Lord tells them a way of restoration. (1) “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen”—This means there should be an investigation of the cause. There is a reason for each retrogression. Unless the cause is found, restoration is impossible. According to the Lord’s view, even though the church in Ephesus is outwardly perfect she has already fallen inwardly. Inner fall precedes outer failure. (2) “And repent”—Repentance is not only required of sinners, it is likewise necessary for believers. Whenever there is a falling away, there is the need for repentance. (3) “And do the first works”—Repentance is negative, while “do the first works” is positive.

From this word we may deduce that the church in Ephesus is not doing what she really did before. What were the things that she previously did? We know these could not have been toil, patience, diligence, resisting evil men, and so forth. In spite of the fact that nothing is explicitly mentioned, a careful reading of the letter to the Ephesians will convince us of two things which they had been doing before: (1) they were faithful (1.1), and (2) they let Christ be Lord (3.17). Hence, in this verse the Lord shows the way to restoration on the one hand and discloses His judgment on the other—the way of first love, but then followed by a warning: “Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent”—Move the candlestick out of its place! Since the word candlestick represents the church, the duty of the church is to shine, that is, to witness.

To be removed from its place is a word that prompts us to ask what is the church’s place. The original place of all these candlesticks is before the Lord (1.12,13; 2.1). And hence, to be removed from its place will mean that a given church will lose its original place before the Lord and thus be rejected by Him. Having lost its place, the candlestick is no longer supplied with oil (that is to say, the church can no longer be filled with the Holy Spirit), and consequently it is unable to shine for the Lord. The point in view here is not concerned with salvation, rather is it a matter of work and testimony. There are many churches today that are simply removed candlesticks in the eyes of the Lord.

2.6 “Nicolaitans” means, in the original, “those who conquer the people”; this then refers to a party that lusts after power and takes upon itself the position of leadership. The Lord hates the works of these people. He commends the Ephesian believers because they are able to hate what He hates.

2.7 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches”—Such a refrain shows that this letter is given not only to the church in Ephesus but also to all the churches which may be in a situation similar to that of the church in Ephesus. Alas, how few are those who will hear the Lord’s words, although they are indeed addressed to all the churches. “He that hath an ear” connotes the sad fact of how many there are in the church who have no ear to hear.

Why is there no ear to hear the Lord’s words? This does not refer to the physical but to the spiritual ear. This can be easily understood by reading Matthew 13.13-15. Why do some people not have any spiritual ear? Because (1) they have no spiritual aspiration, and (2) they are in fact afraid of the Lord’s word.

Finally, reward is mentioned. “To him that overcometh”—Here the word “him” is singular in number. In spite of the fact that the church as a whole has failed, individuals may still seek after victory. What the Lord seeks in these seven letters is for people to overcome.

The reward which the overcomers will receive is that they shall eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God. This paradise or garden most likely points to the one in the kingdom of the heavens, because the kingdom of the heavens is to restore the condition of Genesis 2. As there was on earth a garden of Eden as recorded in Genesis 2, so there will be a paradise in the kingdom of the heavens. What joy the overcomer will have in being with the Lord in Paradise! And not just a being in Paradise, but able also to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

Overcomers in Smyrna - The ten days referred to here are the reign of 10 Caesars, which lasted for 250 years, through the third Century. During this time Christians were persecuted relentlessly. Many were called upon to give their lives for their faith. The Lord offered no escape from this except that which comes from death. But those who remained faithful in believing His promise of everlasting life, received it. The overcomer died in faith and received life.
2.8-11 THE CHURCH IN SMYRNA
The church in Smyrna represents the condition of the church from the second century up to the year 313 after Christ.

The church in Ephesus is cold as to her love, whereas the church in Smyrna suffers greatly. This is most meaningful, since the Lord frequently uses suffering to revive believers who have turned cold or have become loose.

2.8 The word Smyrna signifies “bitterness” which comes from the root word “myrrh”—Myrrh is most precious; and hence this suffering is a precious suffering. All who suffer for the Lord are truly precious.

“The first and the last” denotes that the Lord is the God who changes not. What comfort this Name gives to the church in Smyrna.

“Who was dead, and lived again”—These were the experiences of our Lord while on earth. It gives great consolation and encouragement and help to the believers in Smyrna: (1) The Lord leaves with us an example. If He had to die while on earth, can we be spared? (2) Since He suffered unto death, He is well able to sympathize with us (Heb. 4.15). (3) In order to accomplish God’s purpose and overcome the enemy, He must suffer death; likewise, we need to suffer that we too may succeed. (4) Though He died, yet He lives again. There is hope, and it will not be in vain if we suffer or die for the Lord.

2.9 “I know”—(1) The Lord knows all about our sufferings. Our hearts should therefore rest. (2) Since He knows our sufferings but still does not take them away from us, it can only mean that such sufferings are profitable to us. (3) Knowing our sufferings now, He undoubtedly knows how to reward us in the future.

The sufferings which the church in Smyrna endures are three-fold: (1) tribulation, (2) poverty, and (3) blasphemy.

(1) Tribulation. What is it? Tribulation is pressure coming from outside, such as opposition, attack, ostracism, oppression, scourging, pillaging, and so forth.

(2) Poverty. People do not feel too bad if they are amply supplied financially during tribulation. But to suffer tribulation together with poverty can in fact be considered as reaching the end of the road.

In spite of such a situation, the Lord adds a most precious word, saying, “but thou art rich”—At that time her faith is really rich (James 2.5) and her love is truly full (1 Thess. 1.3). Otherwise, who would not indeed fall under such circumstances?

The church in Smyrna is directly contrary to the church in Laodicea (3.17). Now no one can be Smyrna before the Lord and simultaneously be Laodicea before the world.

(3) Words of blasphemy. This is that which defames us. Some people may endure tribulation and poverty, but few can withstand the mocking of their name.

“The blasphemy of them that say they are Jews”—This is because such blasphemy is begun by the Jews. Even while our Lord was on earth He was so blasphemed; how then can we avoid it?

What are the blasphemers’ words? Blasphemy against the word of salvation (Acts 13.45, 18.6, 19.9, 28.22; Rom. 3.8). Yet the Lord says “Blessed are ye when men shall . . . say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake” (Matt. 5.11).

Something more can be noticed here: “Say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan”—Who are these people? Before solving this puzzle, we should first find out who are the real Jews. By reading Romans 2.28-29, John 8.39-47, and Romans 4.11-12 we can readily perceive that a true believer in the Lord Jesus is a real Jew. Thus, those who are not Jews but say they are will naturally be a stance which points to the Jews according to the flesh together with the proselytes converted to Judaism.

These people are organized into what may be called the Judaized church. Their teachings are Judaized, being partly based on law and partly on grace, a salvation partly by faith and partly by works. Their system follows that which is under the law, with a priestly caste. There were a great number of these people at Paul’s time; except that they were more developed and organized by the time of Revelation. Thus they have now become a synagogue of Satan, being used by him to propagate another gospel which is not the gospel at all.

2.10 “Fear not the things which thou art about to suffer”—These are the things which they will yet suffer, additional to the three things before mentioned. This is truly suffering upon suffering. But the Lord has told us beforehand.

“Fear not”: (1) Fear is the source of defeat. Fearlessness precludes defeat. (2) Since the Lord has already overcome, we too—though we suffer—will eventually overcome.

“Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried”—In the beginning it is but opposition and blasphemy; but later it is increased to include imprisonment. The purposes behind imprisonment are (1) that they may not be able to witness outside, so as to bind the truth of the Lord; (2) that they may be separated from one another, thus diminishing their strength; and (3) that those imprisoned may so suffer as to faint in their heart. Oh! How venomous are the wiles of the devil.

“The devil is about . . .”—No man is mentioned, only the devil is especially pointed out here. This is so that (1) we will not murmur against men but will hate the devil, and (2) we may recognize the enemy and resist him.

“And ye shall have tribulation ten days”—The “ten days” cited does not refer to a literal ten days and ten nights. It simply tells us that this suffering of ours has its time limit. It may also typify the ten colossal persecutions that were perpetrated by the Roman Empire.

“Be thou faithful unto death”—(1) “Unto death” indicates the possibility of being killed. When the devil discovers that imprisonment fails to achieve its aim he will move a step further, namely, to killing. (2) “Be thou” is cast in the imperative mood, being a command. (3) “Faithful unto death” means that they love not their lives even to death (Rev. 12.11). Such is the limit of the devil’s attack. He cannot do anything further if we are thus faithful.

“And I will give thee the crown of life”—What a precious promise, what a blessed hope is this (James 1.12). What is promised here is not just life, but the crown of life. Life is received through believing; the crown of life is obtained by being faithful.

“Crown” speaks of glory, reigning with the Lord in the kingdom of the heavens.

2.11 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches”—This has already been explained. “He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death”—How clear is the promise to the overcomer told: positively, obtaining the crown of life; negatively, not to be hurt of the second death.

“He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death”—Put conversely, it would read: The one who is overcome will be hurt by the second death. However, before “hurt of the second death” is mentioned, the word first specifies what the victory or defeat here is. The victory here is a being faithful unto death, so naturally the defeat will be an unwillingness to be a martyr for the Lord. One who loves his own life and does not dare to die for the Lord will be hurt by the second death.

Now let us ask what the second death is. In 20.14,15 we are told that the dead after being resurrected will be cast into the lake of fire, which is eternal perdition. Believers, though, will have no part in it (John 10.28).

The hurt of the second death and the second death itself are different. As life is in opposition to second death, so the crown of life is in contrast to the hurt of the second death. Since there is a difference between life and the crown of life, there must also be a distinction between the second death and the hurt of the second death. Furthermore, our knowing that the crown of life pertains to the kingdom will cause us to see that the hurt of the second death quite naturally falls within the kingdom period too. And hence the hurt of the second death cannot mean eternal perdition.

Let us now define directly what the hurt of the second death is and what the second death itself is. The second death denotes that a non-believer whose soul has already suffered after death will suffer eternally in spirit and soul and body after being resurrected in the future. The hurt of the second death simply means that a believer after being resurrected may suffer during the kingdom age, though this is assuredly not eternal perdition. Here I will praise God for His righteousness, for an overcomer having suffered martyrdom on earth shall not be hurt by the second death during the kingdom time but will receive instead the crown of life. Yes, a defeated Christian who is unwilling to die for the Lord may escape suffering on earth, but will be hurt at the kingdom period and shall not receive the crown of life. Who would not rather choose to suffer now and receive glory then?

An Old Testament typology may help to illustrate this point. The people in Sodom were burned to death—and this may signify the second death. Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt outside the city—but this may suggest the hurt of the second death.

Overcomers in Pergamum - In the 4th Century the church was married to the pagan Babylonian religion, and practices that were not only un-Biblical but detestable to the Lord became common. The Lord threatened to fight these practices with the sword of His Mouth, which is his Word. The overcomers were those who stayed true to the unadulterated Gospel and lived by faith in its promises. They received the Bread of Life, and a token that would commend them to the Father in the name of the Son.
2.12-17 THE CHURCH IN PERGAMUM
This church signifies the condition of the church from the fourth to the seventh century.

2.12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword”—Pergamum in the original Greek means (1) “united in marriage”, which indicates the relationship between the church and the world; and (2) “high tower” (or “fortified”), which points to the position of the church in the world.

“He that hath the sharp two-edged sword”—The sharp sword has two functions: one is to cut asunder the union between the church and the world, and the other is to judge that church which is united to the world.

2.13 “I know where thou dwellest”—The church sojourns on earth as a passer-by just as our Lord too was once a stranger in this world. How pitiful that the church now has lost her character as a sojourner and has instead a dwelling, that is, a position here. This shows how the church has become worldly, and her dwelling is in Pergamum—which means high tower, that is to say, having a superior position, influence and glory.

Judging by outward appearance, the church is most prosperous, possessing position, influence and glory; but in reality she has been corrupted and defeated. For although the duty of the church on earth is to battle against the enemy, she now owns a dwelling place where the seat of Satan is. In other words, Satan occupies a place in the church. How lamentable this is!

“In the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth”—In these seven letters, no believer’s name is ever mentioned except that of Antipas. Thus is affirmed the extreme importance of this believer. Why was Antipas killed? For the sake of holding fast the Lord’s name and not denying his faith. That is, he was killed because he faithfully testified to these facts.

“And thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith”—As long as Antipas lived, and through his faithful standing, the whole church stood firm. But after he was killed, the entire church was shaken.

2.14 “But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication”—Balaam was a covetous Old Testament prophet whose teaching aimed at uniting the Israelites with the Gentiles. How very many there are today who preach for the sake of money, and how they advocate a union with the world. As Balaam was hired by Balak, even so, since the time of Constantine the Great, many others have been employed by kings. The effects of the teaching of Balaam are: (1) eating things sacrificed to idols, which is to say, to be mixed with other religions, and (2) committing fornication, which in other words is to befriend the world.

2.15 “So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner”—Since the period typified was the time when the Roman Empire accepted Christianity as her religion, and since most of the people had no knowledge of Christian truths, naturally the burden of carrying on spiritual things fell on a minority. Class system became a necessity, and soon this system developed into a kind of teaching.

2.16 “Repent therefore, or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth”—The sword in verse 12 is the word of the Lord which will cut asunder our relationship with the world. If we hear His admonition but do not repent and sever our relationship with the world, we will be judged by His sword-like word.

2.17 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it”—Here are two promises for the overcomer, namely: (1) The hidden manna. Manna is a type of Christ (John 6.49-51). The visible manna was shared in by all the children of Israel, but the hidden manna was to be preserved for Canaan. All believers enjoy the salvation of Christ, but only the overcomers partake of that hidden part of Christ which is not known by all. (2) A white stone. During those days a white stone—on which was written the name of a candidate—was used for election, and then it was deposited in an urn. Though an overcomer will obviously not be elected by the religious world, he will nonetheless receive from the Lord a white stone on which is inscribed a new name unknown to all the rest. This indicates the Lord’s satisfaction with us.

Overcomers in Thyatira - The illicit marriage of the Church to Babylon produced four children, all alive on Earth today. Thyatira represents the Catholic Church, the first child. It became wealthy by confiscating property through false accusation, like Jezebel had, and also instituted the sale of indulgences that authorized licentious practices for a fee. But to those who hold Jesus in their hearts and reject the traditions that would add to what He accomplished on the cross, Jesus promises salvation. They haven’t learned Satan’s secrets of Jesus plus Mary, Grace plus works, Scripture plus sacraments, and have overcome, living by faith alone.
2.18-29 THE CHURCH IN THYATIRA
This church represents the Roman Catholic system.

2.18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like unto burnished brass”—The Lord identifies himself as (1) One whose eyes are like a flame of fire that can see through and distinguish all things, and (2) the Son of God, thus reminding the Roman Catholic Church of her error of inordinately uplifting Mary. And His feet are like burnished brass which are capable of executing judgment. What His eyes condemn, His feet trample down.

2.19 “I know thy works, and thy love and faith and ministry and patience, and that thy last works are more than the first”—We are most surprised to hear of the many good works to be found in such a corrupted church. Naturally, these are performed by a relative few. In spite of the failure of the great majority there are still a few who are excellent. This may be proved by looking at church history.

The Lord does acknowledge that there is some reality even in the Roman Catholic system. People such as Madame Guyon, Francois Fenelon, La Combe, John Tauler, and many others were not only saved but knew God in a real way as well. This is something for us to remember.

2.20 “But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel . . . ; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols”—Who is this Jezebel?

Jezebel, whose story is recorded in 1 Kings, was an unusual Old Testament personality. Ahab King of Israel took to wife this Jezebel, the daughter of a Sidonian king (1 Kings 16.31). She seduced the people into serving and worshiping another god, even Baal. The problem created at that time was more than simply a worshiping of idols; the children of Israel had also changed their God. They made Baal their god. Never before had there been any king to lead Israel to sin more than King Ahab. He was the first one who steered the people along to worship a foreign god. His sin surpassed even that of Jeroboam.

The woman here mentioned is Jezebel. Both the woman mentioned in Revelation 17 and the woman who hid the leaven in three measures of meal as mentioned in Matthew 13 betoken the Roman Catholic system.

Here is a woman who brings confusion to God’s people as well as to God’s word. She brings in idolatry. She calls herself a prophetess. She desires to preach and to teach. It is quite true that according to divine truth the church stands before God in the position of a woman. But whenever the church assumes the authority to teach, she turns into a Jezebel. The church of God has no right to speak on her own. In other words, the church has no doctrine of her own, since only the Son of God is the truth and has truths. Christ as the Head of the church alone can speak. How the Roman Catholic system, having turned into a Jezebel, insists on what the church says instead of what the Bible says or what the Lord says.

Jezebel has committed adultery—she has joined herself to the world. The phenomenon of the Roman Catholic system for the past thousand and some odd years is, according to the epistle of James (4.4), an adultery of the first magnitude. Here we find that the church has lost her chastity.

The consequence of such adultery is idol-worship. We are faced with the fact that none other than the Roman Catholic Church has so many idols.

“Thou sufferest the woman Jezebel . . . ; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols”—Why Jezebel? Because she introduces foreign gods and so can represent the Roman Catholic Church. How foreign deities have been taken over and labeled with Christian names, the most notable being the image of Mary. The Greeks had the goddess Venus, the eastern countries had the goddess of mercy, the Egyptians had the goddess of the nether region, but only Christianity had no goddess. For the sake of having a goddess, therefore, Mary was introduced. This is idolatry added on to fornication. The failure of the believers at Thyatira, says God, is to allow such teaching to prevail over them.

2.21 “And I gave her time that she should repent; and she wiliest not to repent of her fornication”—There is only one woman in the whole world who has killed the prophets, and she is Jezebel. During the middle centuries, countless numbers of God’s children died a martyr’s death at the hand of the Roman Catholic Church. She insists that what she decides or judges is right, and she tries to control man’s thought. She will not repent.

2.22 “Behold, I cast her into a bed”—Notice that this is not a coffin, but a bed. It means she is fixed for life, just as a physician might declare the sickness of a patient to be terminal. Her condition will not improve.

2.23 “I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works”—This may refer to how God in the future will use Antichrist and his party to destroy the Roman Catholic system.

2.24,25 “But to you I say, to the rest that are in Thyatira, as many as have not this teaching, who know not the deep things of Satan, as they are wont to say; I cast upon you none other burden. Nevertheless that which ye have, hold fast till I come”—Notice the phrase “the rest that are in Thyatira”: Jezebel wanted to kill Elijah. The latter was greatly disappointed and afraid, so he hid himself. When questioned by God, he complained that he alone was left and yet his life was in danger. God’s answer to him was: He had seven thousand in Israel who had not bent their knees to Baal (1 Kings 19). These are “the rest that are in Thyatira”.

Thank God, there are still those who “have not this teaching, who know not the deep things of Satan”—The word “bathea” in Greek is translated “mystery” or “deep things” in English. If you ask a Catholic priest whether you can take the Bible and comment on it, you will often be told that the Bible is such a mystery that none but the Pope is able to understand it. To those who do not follow such teaching the Lord puts no burden upon them save to keep what they have already learned of Him. It is enough just to keep it until He comes.

2.26,27 “And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father”—This is the first promise. In the kingdom to come, he who overcomes today shall rule the nations with an iron rod.

What God creates is stone, but what man produces is brick. From the time of the tower of Babel to the time as described in 2 Timothy, all who counterfeit God’s work are considered vessels of clay. They shall be broken one by one until the arrival of the new heaven and the new earth.

2.28 “And I will give him the morning star”—This is the second promise. Physically speaking, we know the morning star in the sky is Venus. It has two characteristics: it being the first star to appear in the sky at dawn as well as being the first one at dusk. One day the Lord shall be seen by the whole world (Mal. 4.2—“the sun of righteousness [shall] arise”). But those who see the morning star are necessarily awake much earlier while the vast majority are still asleep. And these who see the morning star are the overcomers.

2.29 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches”—The Lord speaks not only to the Roman Catholic Church but to all the churches as well. In the three preceding letters the call for overcomers always follows the words “he that hath an ear, let him hear”; but beginning with Thyatira, this order is reversed. This indicates that the first three churches belong to one class while the last four churches compose another class. The history of Smyrna commences after that of Ephesus has ended, and so too begins the history of Pergamum after that of Smyrna has finished. Thyatira comes after the history of Pergamum is closed, but Thyatira does not pass off the scene when Sardis arrives. Instead, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea will all continue even to the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

Overcomers in Sardis - The Protestant Church, represented by Sardis, carried out the Lord’s threat to judge the Church’s practices by the Sword of His Mouth. The call of the reformation was “Sola fides (only through faith), sola gratia (Only by grace), solus Christus (only with Christ), and sola Scriptura (Only His Word).” For the first time, the Bible was available to all who could read it. Great seminaries were founded to teach pastors the Word of God. But into these seminaries the devil crept, and the authority of God’s word was challenged. It was all in the name of intellectualism so it was thought to be good, but soon the Gospel had been robbed of its power, the light of faith had gone out, the Spirit was quenched, and the people had been lulled to sleep.Many still are asleep, but there are a few who remember the Gospel and cling to it. They’ve repented of the Documentary Hypothesis, Modern Rationalism, and all the rest. They’ve overcome what Walter Martin called the Cult of Liberalism and have retained the power of the Gospel. They’ve been washed in the Blood of the Lamb and been given clean clothes. Their names have been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, and He will never blot them out.
3.1-6 THE CHURCH IN SARDIS
As the church falls progressively, from the works of the Nicolaitans at the Apostolic age to the domination of the prophetess Jezebel in the Roman Catholic system, God can no longer tolerate it. Hence comes Sardis. Sardis means “restoration” in the Greek. Sardis is God’s reaction to Thyatira. The history of revivals is the story of divine reactions. Whenever God starts to do the work of revival, He is reacting against the status quo. Now God’s reaction is man’s recovery.

3.1 “The things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars”—In Ephesus the Lord holds the seven stars in His right hand, in Sardis He has the seven stars. Ephesus is the deterioration of the Apostolic age, while Sardis is the recovery from Thyatira. Works without love is Ephesus, and name without life is Sardis. So these two form a pair.

The seven Spirits are sent by God to the world to do the works of life. In Ephesus the seven stars point to the messengers, but here they signify enlightening. Revival work is done partly in the Spirit and partly in the light. Sardis, we can therefore say, represents the history of the Protestant church from the Reformation until the Lord’s return.

“I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead”—No one will ever be doubtful of Luther as God’s servant; nor will any be skeptical of the Reformation as a magnificent piece of God’s work, as a divine reaction. When Luther began his work, it was Sardis. His motive was wholly for restoration.

3.2 “Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die: for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God”—The Lord does not say that Luther’s work is not good, He only says it is not perfected, all having good beginnings yet without ends. Being the perfect Lord that He is, He demands perfection.

With the Reformation we have justification by faith restored as well as an open Bible; but in the matter of the church, the Reformation still imitates Rome instead of returning to the status of the early church. This is history. The Reformation leaves the church matter unsolved. Luther himself did not consider justification by faith sufficient to make the Reformation complete, for there were things concerning the church that were left for others to tackle. Yet we have stopped short. Though we have returned to the faith once delivered to the saints, still there is no formidable change in the status of the church. The churches in the Reformation became united to various nations. As Thyatira is married to the world, so Sardis is united to different nations.

In the eighteenth century there began the history of the dissenters. Those who did not wish to follow national lines used instead doctrines as their lines of demarcation.

“Thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead. Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die”—This refers to justification by faith and the open Bible. In the entire history of Sardis these are seen to be dying, and the Lord therefore exhorts the believers to establish the things which remain.

3.3 “Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent”—The history of Protestantism is one of revivals. Today Protestantism acts as though it were a cup. Whenever there is God’s blessing, people will organize themselves so as to contain it. Though the blessing of God is still there, it is being circumscribed. During the first generation, the cup is full; with the second generation, however, it is only half full, so that the message becomes less clear; and by the third or fifth generation, there is no more water but only the cup remains. People then contend about whose cup is best, yet no one can obtain anything to drink. And the result: God answers with another reaction, and so another Sardis is born.

Man always tries to set up something to preserve God’s grace. Now the cup of man’s making will never be broken because it never lacks people who will exert themselves to maintain it. So that the entire history is one of revivals. On the one hand there is revival, for which we are thankful to God. On the other hand, in these revivals man never returns to the beginning; and consequently we believers are reprimanded by God. God’s servants have this one problem, that they find it extremely difficult to distinguish between what is living water and what is an empty cup. And so from each old cup there continually evolves some new cup. Protestantism, then, is always experiencing revival, yet the Lord declares it to be imperfect. It is almost perfect, but not quite, since it never has gone back to the beginning.

“Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear”—The question is not how now to receive and hear, rather how things were received and heard then. “And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship” (Acts 2.42). We cannot invent a fellowship. The apostles’ fellowship is the fellowship of Christ. If it is the apostles’ teaching, it is in fact Christ’s teaching. The error with Thyatira was to create her own teaching. Yet God has not charged us to invent, only to receive. During the past 20 centuries everything could be invented except truth. We may discover truth in our spirit, but we can never invent any truth.

“I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee”—The coming of a thief is a coming upon (Greek, epi) which means coming by you, but you do not know it. Many brethren in the past have rightly observed that the thief comes to steal the best. Even so too will the Lord steal the very best from the earth. Only the best will be in His hand: “One is taken, and one is left” (Matt. 24.40-41). Hence He says, “If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief’ (3.3).

3.4 “But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy”—The Lord pays special attention to our names. When we stand before God we are clothed with Christ, for He is our white garment. But when we stand before Christ at His judgment seat we need to be clothed also in “fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints” (Rev. 19.8 Darby). The word “righteousnesses” is plural in number.

3.5 “He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels”—Here it is not a matter of having a name written but a matter of having a name confessed. At the time of resurrection the angels will also be present. And he whom the Lord confesses has part in the kingdom, but he whose name is not recognized by the Lord has no portion in the kingdom. Now this is not a question of eternity, it is a question of reigning with Christ. How pathetic it will be to have one’s name written in the book of life and yet not confessed!


Overcomers in Philadelphia - “Hold on to what you have,” the Lord commands the Evangelical Church, “because I’m coming soon. And because you’ve waited patiently for me, I’ll keep you from the hour of trial that’s going to test the whole world.”

And what do we have to hold on to? We have His Word, His name, and His promise. He’s coming soon. There are 5 crowns mentioned in the New Testament, to which believers should aspire. But here the Lord mentioned only one. Which one? I think it’s the one described in 2 Tim. 4:8, the Crown of Righteousness, for those who’ve longed for His appearance. Who but the Bible believing, prophecy studying Evangelical Church can even qualify for this crown, and which one is more descriptive of the yearning in our hearts?
3.7-13 THE CHURCH IN PHILADELPHIA
The name “Philadelphia” is a combination of two Greek words “philo” and “adelphos”: “philo” means “love”, and “adelphos” means “brother”: and hence Philadelphia signifies “brotherly love”. Now you will notice that the words of the Lord to Philadelphia and to Smyrna are quite alike. Of the seven churches, five are reprimanded, and only two receive no reproof. These two are Smyrna and Philadelphia. Just as the trouble in Smyrna came from Judaism and the Jews, so the same is true with Philadelphia. To the church in Smyrna the Lord says: “Ye shall have tribulation”; to the church in Philadelphia He says: “I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, the hour which is to come upon the whole world.” To both of these churches the Lord mentions the crown. To Smyrna He says: “I will give thee the crown of life”; and to Philadelphia He says: “Hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.”

Since these two churches have many similarities, they stand in the same line: the orthodox line of the Apostles. But though the church in Sardis is truly a restoration, the recovery is not perfect. For unlike the church in Philadelphia which receives praises, Sardis receives reproaches. We thus know for sure that Philadelphia is the Lord’s choice because it is an extension of the orthodox line of the Apostles.

In the last century* just past we have had a great movement in the church which surpasses the Reformation. And thus Philadelphia has given us that which the Reformation failed to give. We thank God, for the matter of the church is solved through the early Brethren movement. The position of God’s children is almost entirely restored. Nevertheless, the fame of the Brethren movement falls far behind that of the Reformation. For the Reformation broke upon the world with the aid of sword and gun, whereas the Brethren movement depended purely on the preaching of the word of God.

* Actually, the 19th century.

3.7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write”—Philadelphia: brotherly love. In what respect does God particularly praise Philadelphia? In their brotherly love, for the intermediary class that distinguished clergy from laity has been totally abolished. Moreover, in the church there are neither Jews nor Gentiles, neither freemen nor bondmen. All are brothers. Only after our eyes have been opened to this can brotherly love ever be possible. In the world, distinctions are glorious; but in the church, it is shameful. The church stands not on distinctions but on brotherly love.

“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth”—Holy is the Lord’s life; He himself is that holiness. And He is that reality before God, for He is God’s reality. The key of David means authority. Christ is the finality, and all problems are solved in Him. It is not a matter of force, nor of advertising, but of His opening the door.

3.8 “I know thy works . . . , that thou hast a little power”—One passage in the Scriptures may be associated with this verse: “Who hath despised the day of small things?” (Zech. 4.10) You should not despise the day of small things, that is, the day of the rebuilding of the temple. After the seventy years of captivity the remnant of the Jews returned to Jerusalem in weakness and in groups. They rebuilt the holy temple, thus serving as a type of the Brethren movement. Many of the older Jews who had seen the old temple wept with a loud voice when they saw the foundation of the house of God being laid. For how could the glory of this temple be compared with the glory of the temple of Solomon? But God spoke through the prophet Zechariah, saying that they ought not despise the day of small things. Comparatively speaking, the testimony of the church in the world is like a day of small things.

“And didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name”—On the side of strength, the Lord grants them two things: the keeping of His word and no denying of His name. The Brethren are noted for their knowledge of God’s word. A simple believer among them appears to have a clearer understanding of the Scriptures than some missionaries. And since 1828 the Brethren have maintained that they can only be called Christians. Many people insist on having denominational names, but these brethren have no other name than Christian. That they are called by the name Brethren (with a capital “B”) by others is something which they have never called themselves.

“Behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut”—To Philadelphia the Lord only mentions “open”. People may contend that if you preach according to the Scriptures all doors will be shut. The greatest hardship in obeying the Lord is when a person finds doors closed. Yet here is this extraordinary promise: “Behold, I have set before Thee a door opened, which none can shut”!

3.9 “Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee”—There are at least four things which Judaizes Christianity; namely, an intermediary priesthood, a written code, a physical temple, and earthly promises. For those who truly know God, the influence of Judaism is completely nullified.

3.10 “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience”—This is joined with “partaker with you in the tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus” (1.9). The word here is a noun, not an adjective: It is not My patient word, but the word of My patience, which is to say, the patience of Christ himself. Today the Lord is patient with those who revile Him. His word is the word of patience. He has no fame here on this earth. He is a humble Man, the Man of Nazareth, supposed to be the son of a carpenter. As we follow Him, we are told to keep the word of His patience.

“I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”—The trial which is to come upon the whole world, all Christians know, is the Great Tribulation. But before the hour of trial is come we shall already be raptured. In the Bible there are two places which speak of the promise of rapture: one is found in Luke 21.36 and the other is in Revelation 3.10. We need to follow the Lord carefully, learn to walk in the way of Philadelphia, and ask the Lord to deliver us from all these things that are coming upon the world.

3.11 “I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown”—This church shall continue on until the Lord’s return. “Hold fast that which thou hast”—What do the Philadelphians have? My word, My name. “That no one take thy crown”—To the other churches, it is a question of gaining the crown; to Philadelphia, it is a question of losing it. For the Lord says, you already have the crown. There is only one person in the whole New Testament who knew he had the crown, and that man was Paul. And of all the churches, Philadelphia alone knows she has the crown. Now then, says the Lord, do not let anybody take it away; by which He meant, do not come out of Philadelphia and forsake her place.

3.12 “He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name”—Just as Philadelphia frequently experienced ostracism in her history, so she will one day not be excommunicated any more. To be a pillar in the temple of God means to be permanently settled, because a pillar cannot be taken away. Philadelphia, like a pillar, will support the temple of God, having the three names of God, New Jerusalem, and Christ inscribed on her. The eternal purpose of God is then fulfilled. The Philadelphians satisfy the Lord as well as belong to the Lord.

3.13 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches”—Remember well that God has not given us alternatives to choose from; rather, He has laid out most plainly before us the way of the church.

Overcomers in Laodicea - Here’s the fourth child, the End Times Apostate Church. Prosperous and in need of nothing. They like to call themselves followers of Christ, not just believers, and the focus is definitely on doing. Hardly anyone hears His knock on the door, which means He’s standing outside trying to get in. To those who overcome this mad rush to conquer a world beyond saving, in the name of a Jesus many of them don’t know, in the hope of accomplishing something He doesn’t want, to those who hear the knock and invite Him into their heart to kindle the fires of faith, He will give the right to sit with Him on his throne.
3.14-22 THE CHURCH IN LAODICEA
To what does the church in Laodicea point? Many are unable to answer this question. Some may try to glean personal lessons from it, others may take it as representing the ruinous situation of the church in general. But the Lord is here prophesying.

3.14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write”—Her name is quite peculiar. It is a combination of two Greek words: Laos, meaning “people” or “laity”; and dicea meaning “opinion” or “custom”: hence Laodicea means the opinion or the custom of the people. We can see very distinctly that the church has fallen. What we see in Philadelphia is love, what we see in Philadelphia is the brethren. But here everything has become common. If God’s people do not stand stedfastly in the position of Philadelphia, they will change. Yet they will never change by returning to Sardis; instead, they will become Laodicea. That which comes out of Rome (Thyatira) is Protestantism (Sardis), that which comes out of Protestantism is the brethren (Philadelphia). And that which comes out of the brethren becomes the laity (Laodicea).

One day when the brethren fail to stand firm on the ground of the brethren, they fall from adelphos (brethren) to laos (laity or people). In Sardis, authority is in the hand of the pastors. In Philadelphia, authority falls on the brethren. Now, though, in Laodicea it is neither with the brethren nor with the pastors but with the laity. This means the opinion of the majority. In the people, you meet Laodicea; in the Lord’s will, you see Philadelphia.

“These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God”—Philadelphia and Laodicea are similar in church position. The difference lies in the fact that Philadelphia has love. There is not much distinction in outward appearance; what differentiates them is that Laodicea is a proud Philadelphia. Only fallen Philadelphia can become Laodicea. Riches themselves are the characteristic of Philadelphia; boasting of being rich is the trademark of Laodicea. The fatal disease with Laodicea is pride.

The Lord speaks of himself here as the Amen, the faithful and true witness, and the beginning of God’s creation. Everything that the Lord has mentioned will find its fulfillment in Him. As a matter of fact, all that is of God shall be accomplished in Him. The Lord came to the world to bear witness to the work of God. He is the Head over all things.

3.15,16 “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth”—Sardis has a name of being alive and yet is dead; Laodicea is neither cold nor hot. In Ephesus it is “move thy candlestick out of its place”; here it is “spew thee out of my mouth”: the Lord will have no more use of her.

3.17 “Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked”—They have reason to be proud on the natural plane; but spiritual things ought to inhibit boasting. As soon as there is boasting, things spiritual vanish. The word “wretched” is the same as found in Romans 7.24: “Wretched man that I am!” The Lord is saying: you are spiritually wretched as is the man in Romans 7. In the eyes of the Lord they are pitiful. Three reasons are thereafter given for their wretchedness and misery: they are in reality poor and naked and blind.

3.18 “I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see”—In order to deal with the above three curses they must buy gold, white garments, and eyesalve.

In God’s view, richness in doctrine is useless; consequently, they are still poor. The Lord exhorts them to buy gold refined by fire that they may be rich. In his first epistle Peter says: “The proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire” (1.7).

“White garments” refers to works or conduct. God’s will is for them to be undefiled like wearing white garments, so that they may always walk before Him. The problem here is not whether there is a garment to wear, but whether the garment is white. “And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only, in the name of a disciple”, says the Lord Jesus, “verily I say unto you he shall in no wise lose his reward” (Matt. 10.42). This is the white garment. The Lord wishes people to do His works with a pure enough motive. How many activities are done with impure motives!

Eyesalve speaks of the revelation of the Holy Spirit. One only sees when he has the Holy Spirit’s revelation. Too much understanding on doctrine may impede the Holy Spirit’s revelation. How many are walking in the light of other people! May we learn this before God: to buy eyesalve.

3.19 “As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent”—All that has been said before are words of reproach, but the Lord now shows us that He reproves and chastens because He loves. Not only individuals need to repent, the church also must repent.

3.20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me”—What is this door? There are two possibilities: one is the heart door, the other is the door of the church. Many use this Scripture verse to preach the gospel. We certainly can borrow this verse to preach the gospel to sinners, but we must not borrow it forever without returning it to its proper context. Strictly speaking, the Lord is speaking of the door of the church. How strange it is that the Lord who is the head of the church is now standing outside the door of the church. “Behold, I stand at the door and knock”—The word “behold” is addressed to the whole church, but the message is spoken to individuals. The door is the door of the church, but hearing His voice and opening the door come from the individuals.

We know that truth has two sides: the subjective and the objective, experience versus truth. The biggest failure of the Brethren is to overemphasize objective truth. “I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me”—This implies that the Lord will turn all their objective truths into subjective experiences.

3.21 “He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne”—Many people consider this to be the best among all the promises given to the overcomers of the seven churches. Why is the overcomer promised such a noble thing? Because the church age shall soon be over, and the overcomer is waiting for the return of the Lord. For this reason, we see the throne.

So what is required to overcome? Faith in Jesus and his finished work on the Cross. If you have this then you have overcome and are a part of the bride, if you don't then you may be part of the group that cries Lord, Lord, but Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you.

I hope that answer is sufficient for you. I will work on asking for your evidence next.

Until then,

Joshua David
So what does it take to overcome? First one must believe in Christ, but that is not all, but to remain a carnal Christian is not without consequences. Just as Jesus conquered by the cross in Revelation 5, He goes forth to conquering by the power of the cross in the 1ts Seal (bow and arrow looks like a cross, and the arrow is shot giving Satan a deadly wound). He gives us His Holy Spirit. Likewise we are told time and again to overcometh with comensurate rewards and consequences if we do not. Are all Christians included in Rev. 20.4? Of course not, for not all believers overcometh at the same time. There is an advanced party (Rev. 7.9, 12.5, 14.1-5) and a later harvest (Rev. 14.14-16, 1 Thess. 4.15-17). It is better you know this now, because you prefer to remain tied down the world as a Christian, then God says you will lose the reward of returning with Him to reign during the 1000 years. Likewise you will not be received at the first rapture according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10). Remember, 1 in 3 verses in the Bible is prophet. Give Jesus some liberty to speak of things of His church even though Pentecost had not begun yet when He was speaking.

 

Joshua David

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Feb 10, 2011
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Oh there was one more thing that I forgot to address.

I haven't seen you address anywhere that these 24 elders take up the prayers of the saints to heaven; this is not something the Church does.
The answer is so simple, I kept forgetting to put it into my posts. The 24 elders are the saints that make up the church. Do you think that just because we get to Heaven we will stop praying. The prayers that we are bringing to the throne are our own prayers. We are told to come boldly before the throne of Grace. That will not stop once we get to Heaven. If you wish, I can present you multiple examples of scripture that we are to bring our prayers to God. I just didn't think it was necessary.

Now I have presented evidence as to why I believe the way I do. Whether you accept this interpretation of the evidence is immaterial. The point is that I do have scriptural evidence for believing what I believe, and have addressed at least a majority of your points.

Now if you would do me the same courtesy. I want to know what scriptural evidence you have for believing....

1) Lucifer is an Archangel

They are the ruling party in heaven. Nowhere does it say in the Bible the archangels can't wear crowns. You've asserted something you have no evidence for. But since they reign as the archangels do, naturally they were crowns. Crowns are indication of kingship and they are certainly the eldest elders of the universe.


This is where studying the original language helps tremendously, and why sometimes you just can't rely on what you feel that the Holy Spirit is telling you, because in the end what you are really basing your interpretation off of is your own feelings and your own understanding. By all means, check out what I am about to tell you. There are two different words in the book of Revelations that the translators translated them into the word crown. One word is the crown for kingship and authority. This word is diadem. It is used three different times in the New testament, and all three are in the book of Revelations. Rev 12:3, Rev 13:1 and Rev 19:12. The dragon is seen wearing this to show the authority that God has given him during the tribulations. The beast is shown to wear these to show the authority that the beast will exercise on the earth. And of course the Lord Jesus is shown wearing them to show his Ultimate Authority.

First let's get the definition of the word diadem.

diadem - [font="Arial]Regal power; sovereignty; empire; -- considered as symbolized by the crown.[/font][/color][/size]
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[color="#001320"][font="Arial][size="3"]The other word that is used and translated into the word crown is the word stephanos.
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[color="#001320"][font="Arial][size="3"]Stephanos is defined as 1) a crown

a) a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank

1) the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games

B) metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness

c) that which is an ornament and honour to one
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[font="Arial][size="3"]Do not misunderstand the significance here. The same word that is used for the crowns that the redeemed are given as a reward for overcoming is the same word that the 'Elders of the universe' who according to you, are not redeemed, have no need of being redeemed because they never sinned are wearing. You claim they wear crowns to show their rulership of the universe. But if that was the case then they would be wearing diadems, not stephanos, these are reward crowns. So what have the 'Elders of the universe' done to be rewarded the same as the Redeemed?[/size][/font]
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[/size][/font]There is a firstfruits and a later harvest. We whom are in Christ all overcometh, but not at the same time. Hence, the 7 churches are called to overcometh, but obviously in such a declaration some do not overcometh, otherwise there would be no need to call us to overcometh. Hence, we see consequences to not overcoming as God would have us: 1) not being received at the first rapture, because you did not keep the word of His patience to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10), and 2) you won't return with Christ to reign in the 1000 years because you are like one of the 5 unwise virgins who did not fill up their lamps with oil of the Holy Spirit.[font="Arial][size="2"]
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[color="#001320"][font="Arial][size="2"]Ok I think I know where you are going with here, but could you supply the scriptural evidence of the first fruits and the later harvest. I would like to know for sure before I respond to this. As to number 2, I am assuming that you are basing all of that on the parable of the 10 virgins. If you have other scriptures to support this then please let me know. I just have one question for you concerning this though. We have the groom and the virgins, who are similar and are to be understood as being like the bridesmaids of today. Just because they are virgins does not make the the bride. None of the 10 virgins are the bride.[/size][/font]

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Of the church, some (for example, the five wise virgins) will attend the marriage feast, while some (for example, the five foolish virgins) will not be able to attend the marriage feast. Considering your take on you I can be 100% certain you will not return with Christ to reign over the nations for the 1000 years. At worst your antinomian stance indicates that you might not even be born again, one of those wou talked about who claim to be Christian but are not because you never truly gave your life to Christ unto regeneration.[font="Arial][size="2"]
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[color="#001320"][font="Arial][size="3"]I just love the fact that you feel so qualified as to judge my eternal destiny, and here I thought that only Christ was able to do that. I believe that this more than any other statement that you have made has declared your hubris. Now I will be the first to admit that I might be wrong in my understanding of scripture. I can admit it. I am fallible. But this I know. I have seen my sinful self. I have accepted my Lord's atonement of my sins on his cross. I am cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb, and I await the soon coming of my Lord, my Savior and My King Jesus Christ. I know that I am a child of the King and NO ONE can take that away. When you disparage my salvation, you disparage the blood that has paid for my sins, and that my friend is a very dangerous path to tread.[/size][/font]

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[size="3"][font="Arial][color="#001320"]I await your responses to my points.
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[font="Arial][color="#001320"]Joshua David[/color][/font][/size]
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noselfwilling

New Member
Jan 26, 2011
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The answer is so simple, I kept forgetting to put it into my posts. The 24 elders are the saints that make up the church. Do you think that just because we get to Heaven we will stop praying. The prayers that we are bringing to the throne are our own prayers. We are told to come boldly before the throne of Grace. That will not stop once we get to Heaven. If you wish, I can present you multiple examples of scripture that we are to bring our prayers to God. I just didn't think it was necessary.

We don't carry our own prayers to Heaven. That's what the angels do for us. 24 is never the number of the Church. Don't confuse John being taken up the spirit as the rapture of the Church. Paul's taken up in the spirit didn't rapture the Church in his day either, nor did Daniel's vison and so on. The resurrection is a bodily resurrection. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8)--The prayers belong to someone else, those of the saints. That would be an odd picture the saints are all carrying bowls full of their own prayers. The role of angels is to take our prayers to Him. But I see you do it yourself which is self-strength or self-works.

Now I have presented evidence as to why I believe the way I do. Whether you accept this interpretation of the evidence is immaterial. The point is that I do have scriptural evidence for believing what I believe, and have addressed at least a majority of your points.
I disagree. You've been shown wrong on your assumptions, for example in Rev. 5.8 that they carry the prayers of someone else (namely, the saints), and you didn't even address many of the points why the 24 Elders can't be the Church. You avoid dealing with John in the spirit that was not physical, and he didn't even know who the Elder was talking about, for if it was the Church he ought to know. Yet he didn't. John would be the edlest of Elders so he should know. There is just too much wrong with your theory.

There are three classes of people in view in 7.13-17, namely: (1) elders, (2) John, and (3) those arrayed in white robes. Should the 24 elders be an allusion to part of the church, it would still make some sense for the elders to ask John, "Who are they, and whence came they [those in white robes]?"
But if the 24 elders mean the entire church, it would be absurd for the entire church to ask concerning part of the church.

What you believe is simply weird every way you look at it and it is deadly antinomian.

Now if you would do me the same courtesy. I want to know what scriptural evidence you have for believing....

1) Lucifer is an Archangel
Since Lucifer was the greatest angel before his fall, naturally we can assume he was one of the 24 archangels proven in Revelation 4.

This is where studying the original language helps tremendously, and why sometimes you just can't rely on what you feel that the Holy Spirit is telling you, because in the end what you are really basing your interpretation off of is your own feelings and your own understanding. By all means, check out what I am about to tell you. There are two different words in the book of Revelations that the translators translated them into the word crown. One word is the crown for kingship and authority. This word is diadem. It is used three different times in the New testament, and all three are in the book of Revelations. Rev 12:3, Rev 13:1 and Rev 19:12. The dragon is seen wearing this to show the authority that God has given him during the tribulations. The beast is shown to wear these to show the authority that the beast will exercise on the earth. And of course the Lord Jesus is shown wearing them to show his Ultimate Authority.

First let's get the definition of the word diadem.

diadem - Regal power; sovereignty; empire; -- considered as symbolized by the crown.

The other word that is used and translated into the word crown is the word stephanos.

Stephanos is defined as 1) a crown

a) a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank

1) the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games

metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness

c) that which is an ornament and honour to one

Do not misunderstand the significance here. The same word that is used for the crowns that the redeemed are given as a reward for overcoming is the same word that the 'Elders of the universe' who according to you, are not redeemed, have no need of being redeemed because they never sinned are wearing. You claim they wear crowns to show their rulership of the universe. But if that was the case then they would be wearing diadems, not stephanos, these are reward crowns. So what have the 'Elders of the universe' done to be rewarded the same as the Redeemed?

The Elders of the Universe who did not fall with 1/3 of the angels can be considered most appropriately overcomers in a sense for part of overcoming is keeping what one has. They are 24 archangels who just need to hold onto what they have and not fall with Lucifer. Therefore, your argument is really quite ineffective to try to make them redeemed by blood. I think you have just strengthened the case further for the 24 archangels. It is most intriguing that the one archangel that fell was replaced by the only archangel in the Bible mentioned which was Michael for Israel. I like that. It makes me feel good to know God replaces the fallen one just as Judas was replaced by Matthias.

Ok I think I know where you are going with here, but could you supply the scriptural evidence of the first fruits and the later harvest. I would like to know for sure before I respond to this. As to number 2, I am assuming that you are basing all of that on the parable of the 10 virgins. If you have other scriptures to support this then please let me know. I just have one question for you concerning this though. We have the groom and the virgins, who are similar and are to be understood as being like the bridesmaids of today. Just because they are virgins does not make the the bride. None of the 10 virgins are the bride.
Revelation shows us virgin firstfruits and a later harvest,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_14.htm

All 10 virgins are the bride and of the same class as virgins in the Church, but not all get to enter the marriage feast of the millennial reign. And Revelation 12.5 are overcomers with Christ as the man-child. (Rev. 12.5). We have lots of reasons why those in 12.5 coincide with those in Rev. 7.9 as the firstfruits overcomers (we can get into that more later).

THE PARABLE OF THE TEN VIRGINS, 25.1-13 This parable may be divided into seven parts: (1) the ten virgins going forth to meet the bridegroom (v.1); (2) the two different classes of virgins (vv.2-4); (3) their history or process (vv. 5-7); (4) the discovery of a lack (vv. 8-9); (5) the distinction (v.10); (6) the request of the foolish (vv.11-12); and (7) the lesson (v.13).

v.1 “Then” refers to the time of parousia. “The kingdom of heaven” and not the church is in view here. The kingdom of heaven is the sphere of the righteousness of God, the realm in which God rules and reigns.

“Virgins” refer to Christians; and “bridegroom” to the Lord.

“Ten” in the Scriptures is a number which, as we shall see below, denotes the greater part of the whole. There are altogether four numbers in the Bible which represent perfection: “three” (the perfection of God); “seven” (the perfection of time, temporary perfection); “ten” (the perfection of man); and “twelve” (the perfection of the ages, eternal perfection). In Revelation 21 everything noted there is twelve—gates, pearls, the names of the apostles, the tribes of Israel, the precious stones, the height of the wall [144 = 12[sup]2[/sup]]. Before this chapter 21, all is seven in the book of Revelation. But commencing with the new heaven and new earth (the subject of chapter 21), all is twelve. Three is the number of God and four is the number of man. Three plus four is seven (God’s number plus man’s number), which is yet separable and hence represents temporary perfection. Three multiplied by four is twelve (God’s number multiplied by man’s number), which is inseparable and therefore stands for eternal perfection. Ten is a little short of the perfect number of twelve. By adding two to it, the result will become the number of eternal perfection: in this connection let us see that in Matthew 24, the two women grinding at the mill represent the living believers; while in chapter 25 the ten virgins represent the dead believers (“they all slumbered and slept”—v.5).

In the Bible there is the usage of the number twelve in both Greek and Hebrew as often being ten plus two: ten being the majority number and two the residual number. For example: ten brothers and two brothers (Gen. 42.3-4); ten spies and Joshua with Caleb (Num. 14.37-38); the prophet Ahijah rent his new garment into twelve pieces and gave them away by distributing ten pieces and two pieces (1 Kings 11.29-31); and the controversy between the ten disciples and the two disciples (Matt. 20.24).

“Virgins”—In a parable, the matter of virginity cannot be taken literally. The virgins instead represent us who are recreated in Christ. They point more to the idea of our being hidden ones than to the idea of chastity, for married women may also be chaste. The term “virgins” cannot be applied to either the Jews or the unbelievers; only Christians can adopt this term. The one purpose of these virgins is to go forth with their lamps to meet the bridegroom.

“Lamp” in the Bible may mean several things: (1) the word of the Lord (Ps. 119.105); (2) the word of prophecy (2 Peter 1.19); and (3) the outward testimony of the Christian (Matt. 5.14-16). It does not say “candle” here since a candle burns its own wax to give light, whereas oil is poured into a lamp from the outside in order for it to shed light. So the outward declaration of the Christian ought to be a going forth to meet the bridegroom. Just as in the breaking of bread, we not only remember the finished work of the Lord but also remember that the day of His coming is near.

vv.2-4 Two classes of virgins. Many commentators take the five foolish virgins to be the unsaved, yet there are so many iron-clad evidences to overturn such an interpretation that we will mention only fifteen of them, which serve also as important proofs that these foolish virgins are saved ones:

(1) These five foolish ones are virgins. Even through verse 11, they are still termed virgins. Throughout the parable the Lord never called this matter into question; on the contrary, He continually recognized this as a fact.

(2) There are lights in their lamps (v.8). These lights sustained them up to midnight and the time of their lamps “going out” (not even that they had “gone out”), showing that the lights are not yet extinguished. And hence these virgins have “good works” and they “glorify [their] Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 5.16) due to the indwelling Holy Spirit in them, except that now their lights are going out.

(3) They all go forth to meet the bridegroom. The unsaved will never be able to go out to meet the bridegroom. Will bandits ever light their torches and go forth to meet the government troops?

(4) “But at midnight there is a cry.... Come ye forth to meet him”—The cry is to all the ten virgins. The archangel surely will not call mistakenly nor the Lord use any word incorrectly.

(5) Oil in their lamps, even though it is granted that there is no oil in the vessels. Oil signifies the Holy Spirit, and hence these foolish virgins must be saved ones.

(6) “Then all those virgins arose” (v.7). It refers to but one resurrection common to all ten. For note that a thousand years shall separate the resurrection of the saved from that of the unsaved.

(7) The five wise virgins go in with the bridegroom (v.10); afterward come also the foolish virgins (v.11). They all are raptured to the air, except that the latter five cannot attend the marriage feast.

(8) The difference between the five wise and five foolish virgins lies in their conduct, not in their nature—since all of them are virgins with no divergence of true or false, the only distinction being between being wise or foolish. To be foolish does not mean to not be saved.

(9) Due to the tarrying of the bridegroom (v.5), the lamps of the foolish are going out. If the bridegroom does not tarry, these may be just as qualified as the wise ones to enter.

(10) These five foolish are virgins from the beginning to the end (v.11).

(11) “Buy for yourselves” (v.9). To the unsaved, it cannot be a matter of “buying” but one of “asking” since grace is freely given. Only to the saved can the word be “buy”—which means paying a price.

(12) If the five foolish are unsaved, then according to this interpretation it would seem that they are being given another opportunity to be saved after they die, because the wise virgins counsel them to go and buy oil.

(13) If the five foolish are unsaved, would the five wise say, “Peradventure there will not be enough for us and you”? If these foolish are truly unsaved, these five wise cannot make any excuse but must pay any cost to help; for how can they stand by and do nothing for the perishing?

(14) “Watch therefore,” says the Lord (v.13). To be watchful requires life. If the five foolish are not saved, they cannot be exhorted to watch but must be urged to repent.

(15) In contrast to the parable of the gospel feast told of in Matthew 22, which is directed towards the lost, this parable is spoken to the disciples. Matthew 22 is concerned with the question of being saved or perishing, but this is not the concern of Matthew 25. Whoever is bound and cast out in the parable of Matthew 22 is totally helpless, but the foolish virgins who are barred are still quite free. The earlier parable relates to the gain or loss of the king, while the latter story pertains to that of the virgins. The one refers to the glory of the king; the other reflects upon the welfare of the virgins.

In interpreting the Scriptures believers today devote themselves almost entirely to the problem of whether saved or unsaved, not realizing that there is the equally important question of the kingdom after once being saved.

The wise and the foolish differ not in nature, only in conduct. There is one place in the New Testament that can prove this point, and for this we must consult Matthew 7.24-26. The wise man is he who does the words of the Lord, while the foolish man is one who does not obey them. The rock stands for the words of the Lord, but the sand signifies the ideas of man. To build upon the rock is to do everything according to God’s word; to build upon the sand is to do things according to one’s own ideas. “The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 9.10). It is therefore wise to be simple before God and foolish to rebel against Him. To say “perhaps” or “according to my own opinion” is really being foolish. To do what God says may look like utter foolishness to man but it is real wisdom to God.

Only in two points do the two classes of virgins differ: (1) the wise ones carry oil in their vessels while the foolish do not; and (2) the wise virgins go in to the marriage feast whereas the foolish ones are rejected. Their similarities are many, such as they all (1) are virgins, (2) have lamps (the appearance), (3) they bear light (the conduct which glorifies God), (4) have oil (the Holy Spirit), (5) go forth to meet the bridegroom (waiting), (6) sleep, (7) hear the midnight cry, (8) arise (resurrection), and (9) trim their lamps (prepare oil). Yet however numerous are their similarities and seemingly limited are their differences, the consequences for each group are far, far apart. What care must we therefore exercise! Whatever may be the cause, that will be the effect. Today’s difference will produce tomorrow’s divergence. The glory or shame in the age to come is decided today.

“Took no oil with them”—That is to say, the foolish prepared no oil apart from what was already in the lamp. The wise have extra oil in their vessels. Oil in the lamp speaks of the Holy Spirit who dwells in every regenerated person. A Christian, even a beginner, has the indwelling Holy Spirit (see Ez. 36.26-27, Eph. 1.13). “The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all his innermost parts” (Prov. 20.27). “If any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Rom. 8.9). “Know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobates” (2 Cor.13.5). “Hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he gave us” (1 John 3.24). “Hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit” (1 John 4.13). The Lord therefore dwells in us by His Spirit.

But oil in the vessel means more than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; it speaks of being filled with the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit is received at the time of regeneration, but the filling of the Holy Spirit comes through continual seeking following the moment of regeneration. Each believer has the Holy Spirit, yet not all have the fullness of the Holy Spirit. A vessel is something other than the lamp. Yet this is not the emphasis here. Since oil is a liquid, it has to be contained in a vessel. God’s will is for us to be filled to the full, not just having oil in the lamp. In order to realize this, neither trimming nor decorating the lamp will be a good way, for God looks for extra oil in the vessel. Yet the believer’s attention is usually drawn to the outward appearance of the lamp. The less oil one has, the more assiduously he takes care of the appearance. Nevertheless, trimming can never be a substitute for the oil.

We imagine that receiving oil once is enough, but God desires us to receive it twice. The second time is different from the first, in that at the first instance God gives freely whereas at the second instance He demands a price to be paid. If anyone refuses to pay the price—denying himself and seeking earnestly—he will not be given the oil again. So let us be alert. People may not be able to detect whether or not we have the oil twice over; and we may indeed get by without any trouble today, but on that future day we will be found out. Are we willing to pay the price? To be filled with the Holy Spirit is the condition for rapture. Just as a balloon filled with helium will ascend heavenward, so will those who are filled with the Holy Spirit be caught up. Let us therefore pay the price in providing oil in the vessel, or else we will be those like the foolish virgins.

vv.5-7 These verses form the third part of the parable and narrate the history of these virgins. Spiritual foolishness may not be readily discerned in the world, but the tarrying of the Lord is the acid test. At the beginning, both the wise and the foolish receive the same light. And the latter may therefore ridicule the former for being cumbered about with carrying extra oil. Oh how many are fit to be raptured at first but render themselves unfit later on! This is due to the delay of the Lord. Indeed, it is the evil servant who thinks that the Lord will delay His return; just the opposite, though, is the foolish virgin who imagines that the Lord will come earlier! The parable of the evil servant teaches believers to be ready to meet the Lord today, while the parable of the ten virgins instructs us to be prepared for any unexpected delay of the Lord’s return. Should the Lord tarry for 56 more years, will you still be ready to meet Him? Be careful lest your lamp can only burn till midnight but not after midnight. If you set your lamp to burn only till midnight, the Lord may tarry until after that hour. Do not despise the testing of the Lord. The usefulness of the oil in the vessel is revealed in the Lord’s tarrying. So that what is being emphasized here is not the initial burning but whether there is extra oil in the vessel for longer burning.

The bridegroom, of course, is the Lord.

“Now while the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept”—Since this is a parable, it naturally should be interpreted spiritually. Sleep in the Scriptures may convey either one of two meanings: (1) a falling away spiritually (see Rom. 13.11-14,1 Thess. 5.6); or (2) death (see 1 Thess. 4.13, John 11.11-14). It cannot mean a spiritual falling away because (a) the wise virgins fall asleep as well as the foolish; (B) the sleep here is unimportant since the wise are not evilly affected by it; © the Lord does not reprimand them for their sleep, instead He completely ignores the fact; and (d) we should notice the lesson to be gained from verse 13 wherein the Lord is found teaching His hearers to watch just as the wise virgins had done. In view of these observations, therefore, the sleep mentioned here cannot have reference to a spiritual falling away but instead signifies physical death.

“But at midnight there is a cry”—Some say this refers to the renewed interest in the study of prophecy and the preaching of the second coming which occurred at the beginning of the nineteenth century. This may sound attractive, but unfortunately in the parable none of the ten virgins awakens on her own accord. They do not awaken through any initiative of their own but must be awakened by the action of the bridegroom himself. Hence the sounding of the midnight cry must yet await its fulfillment at the time of the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trump of God as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.16 and 1 Corinthians 15.52. The voice of the archangel is for the purpose of waking people up, and the sounding of the trumpet of God serves to gather people together. So that in the parable, those who hear (all ten virgins) stand for all the dead believers.

“Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him”—Since the two sides (that is, the bridegroom and the virgins) are both coming together, they will accordingly meet in the air.

“Then all those virgins arose”—This proves that all dead Christians are resurrected together. Here the virgins seem to have time to talk things over; but according to 1 Corinthians 15.52 the event all happens in a moment—in the twinkling of an eye—so that there is no opportunity left to make conversation. Let us understand that what we have here is a parable, and there frequently is portrayed in parables an element of time which actually does not exist. For example, in the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matt. 20.1-16), a contention is mentioned as arising between the Lord and those who labor earliest but are paid last. Such contending with the Lord is in fact impossible. The same thing happens in the parable of the marriage feast as told in Matthew 22.1-14. Consequently, when we study parables we should concentrate on their teachings and not so much on the details.

vv.8-9 The fourth part of this parable is the discovery of lack in the five foolish ones. They discover their lack of oil because of the tarrying of the bridegroom (v.5a). His tarrying is for the purpose of testing the wise and the foolish. The foolish virgins no doubt deemed the five wise ones to have encumbered themselves unnecessarily in carrying oil in vessels, but now they too find the need for oil, and so they ask the wise virgins for it. The gift of the Holy Spirit may be imparted (see Acts 8.17, 19.6; 1 Tim. 4.14; 2 Tim. 1.6), but the fullness of the Holy Spirit cannot be transferred. It is not enough simply to ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no way to share other people’s oil, not even with parents, brothers and sisters, or close relations. One’s spiritual fullness can come only from paying the price himself. Counterfeit spirituality may pass for real today, but it cannot pass the test on that day. To be filled with the Holy Spirit requires fellowship with the Lord and costly pursuit of Him. No matter how long we may be in company with spiritual people, we will not automatically share in their oil. Light may be borrowed, but oil cannot.

“Preadventure there will not be enough for us and you”—In other words, there can be no help since help in this situation is impossible. The Lord does permit a certain kind of holy selfishness here. Although we should always be sympathetic toward others, can we afford to be foolish because others are? Should we not rather keep a definite amount of sacred holiness for the Lord? “There will not be enough for us and you”—It will mean loss to both; and moreover, the other party will not be helped at all.

“And buy for yourselves”—This injunction signifies a great deal of truth:

(1) At least there is still the possibility and the opportunity to buy oil at that time. Yet please notice that this does not refer to one more opportunity being given to the resurrected dead to be saved, because the resurrection of the unsaved does not occur at that time.

(2) This injunction does suggest, however, that the oil of the wise ones was originally secured with a price. The indolent will not be filled with the Holy Spirit.

(3) To be filled with the Holy Spirit requires paying a price. It has to be bought, not to be begged for. Also, one needs to know what to buy. Who would go to a department store to buy, and when asked what he wants would not know what to buy? Nevertheless, a great number of Christians are like that because (a) they do not realize the necessity for buying oil, (B) they do not know the price, and © they do not wish to pay the price.

Believers today do not understand how essential it is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The oil in the lamp is not sufficient to burn after midnight; only the oil in the vessel is sufficient enough. Most Christians, having received the New Covenant, know only new desires but not new power. It is most painful to have a new desire without the power to fulfill it. This proves the need to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Since there is need, there is reason for paying the price. Before one builds a tower he should first sit down and count the cost, and before he goes to war he should first take counsel as to how many soldiers he would commit to the fight (see Luke 14.25-35).

Many are frightened away by the heavy cost, not considering how essential is the oil. The price each pays will vary. Some may have to forsake something. One thing is certain, which is, that oil cannot be bought without paying a price. It is not freely obtained, neither is it obtained for personal interest but for the glory of God and for His work. How many there are who like to adorn themselves with gifts and power, yet God does not give these to exalt men. People may know what price they have to pay, but they ought to know that a price must be paid. Obviously, dealing with sin is a prerequisite. If sin is not dealt with, who can talk about paying a price? Yet to confess sin is not the paying of any price since this is minimally what one and all ought to do anyway; for let us understand that even the five foolish virgins have dealt with sin too.

(4) Pay the price—a matter of paying the right price for the right merchandise. The measure of the price paid will determine the amount of oil obtained. Let us see that the cross and the Holy Spirit are inseparable. Let the slaying of Jesus be manifested in your body (see 2 Cor. 4.8-11 ), for the cross will create in you an empty space for the power of the New Covenant to fill. The fullness according to the New Covenant is a fact more than it is a matter of consciousness—just as the heartbeat is a fact, although it may not always be felt. God’s only begotten Son is freely given, but the oil in the vessel must be bought.

There are four things cited in the Bible which must be bought:

(a) “Buy the truth” (Prov. 23.23). In order to know the truth, one must be determined to practice the truth and to seek earnestly after it.

(B) “Buy . . . gold refined by fire” (Rev. 3.18). Such buying of refined gold and white garments and eye-salve is not action for the unsaved to take, because God cannot ask the unsaved to buy. Laodicea is, after all, a church. “Gold refined by fire” signifies that faith which has gone through trial and has been proven undefeated. It is the faith which overcomes environment (see 1 Peter 1.7). God allows you to go through a trial in order to show His love to you, and also for him to be glorified before Satan (such as in the case of Job).

© “Buy. . . white garments” (Rev. 3.18)—There are two kinds of white garments spoken of in the book of Revelation: (1) those white garments we received before God, which garments are the Lord Jesus himself. We are clothed with Christ, and thus are we cleansed. Whoever does not have this white garment is not saved. (2) those white garments we wear before God, which represent the righteousnesses of the saints (Rev. 19.8 Darby) that are the result of the operation of the Spirit of the Lord within us. Whoever does not have this white garment is naked before God and will not be rewarded.

(d) “Buy. . . eyesalve” (Rev. 3.18)—This is the revelation of the Holy Spirit, without which no one really sees.

(5) Such an injunction here in verse 9 hints at the fact that oil must be bought. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is not something you can decide. Sooner or later you must be filled with the Holy Spirit. Do not think that those who are like the five wise have gone to an extreme. One day God will force you to go to such an “extreme”: for Ephesians 5.18 is a command.

(6) “Go ye rather to them that sell”—Where will they be able to buy this oil? We can only take it as signifying that they must pay a price for obtaining their extra oil.

(7) The injunction in verse 9 touches upon this question too: How can there be suffering after resurrection? Such notion that there is no suffering after resurrection is erroneous. For all who shall suffer in the lake of fire will have themselves been resurrected too. Some people are resurrected to enjoy life, while others are resurrected to suffer eternal death. If a person has not been able to control his temper while living, his death will not automatically change him. For let us realize that the lusts, pride, and selfishness of the rich man spoken of in Luke’s parable remain with him in Hades (16.19-31). Therefore, after the virgins arise they all are found trimming their lamps. Yet the statement—“Our lamps are going out”—made by the five foolish virgins (v.8) indicates that the lamps will not be completely extinguished. God gives us life that is once and forever. Although in the Christian’s experience of the Holy Spirit there are many times when it looks as if his lamp is going out, nevertheless the Holy Spirit will never leaves us: He will not leave, even in the face of our unfaithfulness.

v.10 The fifth part of the parable deals with the separation. “And while they went away to buy”—Oil these foolish ones must have; but while they go away to buy, the Lord arrives; and only those who are ready go in with Him to the marriage feast. Hence the whole problem is whether one is ready. Yet they do not cease to be virgins because they are not ready; for many are true Christians, but few are ready ones.

“Went in with him to the marriage feast” (see also Rev. 19.7,9). The bride is the New Jerusalem, which includes all who are chosen to be united with God—both those of the Old Testament time and of the New Testament dispensation. The bride mentioned in Revelation 19 emerges before the millennial kingdom, whereas the bride spoken of in Revelation 21 appears after the kingdom. There is thus a gap of a thousand years. Since one becomes a bride but once, it is evident that the marriage feast extends over a period of a thousand years.

“Marriage feast”—This means to be with the bridegroom and to rejoice together. Such joy is very special, and therefore Revelation 19 says how “blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb” (v.9). The “blessed” mentioned in Revelation 20.6, though, has relationship to the matter of reigning and appears to be the same supping and reigning as is described in Revelation 3.20-21. Altogether, there are seven times in Revelation when the word “blessed” is proclaimed.

Why does Matthew 25 not speak of the bride? For the simple reason that the bride is corporate, whereas the virgins here in the parable are seen as individuals. The bride cannot be viewed as five and five.

“And the door was shut”—It is the door of the kingdom, the entrance into the joy of feasting with the bridegroom.

vv.11-12 The request of the foolish virgins forms the sixth part of the parable. Now they have come back from buying oil. Keep in mind that both the five wise and the five foolish are virgins, all ten having oil in their lamps, all going out to meet the bridegroom, all falling asleep while waiting, and all rising and trimming their lamps after having heard the cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Now, both parties have oil in their vessels, with the only difference being one of time. Recall how once the Lord had chided the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, saying, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!” (Luke 24.25) Recall also how He had likewise admonished Thomas, saying, “Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20.29). The matter of quickness or slowness is of great importance. Do we not know that all who will suffer in the lake of fire will have to believe sometime, only they have believed too late? “Look therefore carefully how ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise; redeeming the time, because the days are evil” (Eph. 5.15-16). The foolish do not redeem the time, but the wise ones do. The latter are filled with the Holy Spirit. Let us realize that we must all some day be filled with the Holy Spirit. Then why not now? Why have this experience come afterwards?

“I know you not”—Will the Lord ever say to the saved that He does not know them? However, we need to examine this answer of our Lord’s very carefully:

(1)”But he answered and said”—The word “but” shows that the answer is unusual and out of all expectation. In Luke 15.22 the same word indicates how totally unthought-of, unhoped-for, and unexpected by the prodigal son were the father’s words to his servants. The word “but” here proves that the “know not” is not an ordinary not knowing.

(2) The Lord knows all who are saved (2 Tim. 2.19, Gal. 4.9, John 10.14). Two Greek words are used for “know” in the New Testament: ginosko and oida. The former signifies an objective knowledge while the latter signifies a subjective and deeper knowledge. Now oida is the Greek word employed here by the Lord.

(3) How is oida used in the Scriptures? It is recognizably employed to mean approve, commend, endorse, or applaud. What follows are a few examples from the New Testament which illustrate the use of this Greek word. In each example, the verb “to know” or “to not know” is oida or its variant. “In the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not” (John 1.26). In this situation, of course, the Jews know (ginosko) the Lord, but they do not really know (oida) Him because they do not love Him. “I knew him not” (John 1.31). Since John and the Lord Jesus are cousins, the Baptist certainly knows Jesus objectively (ginosko) but not subjectively (oida)—that is to say, John does not know Him deeply. “Ye know neither me, nor my Father” (John 8.19). Though the Jews know (ginosko) the Lord quite well externally, they do not approve of Him nor do they receive Him. “I know you not whence ye are” (spoken twice in Luke 13.22-30). Here the Lord speaks of the situation in the kingdom. Some who have eaten and drunk with the Lord and have also heard Him teaching in their streets doubtless know objectively (ginosko) the Lord well, yet they are referred to by the Lord as “workers of iniquity”—a phrase which in the original is worded as “workers of unrighteousness”—that is to say, those who do not walk according to rule. “Ye know the house of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 16.15). The Corinthian believers know deeply (oida) and not just know objectively (ginosko) the house of Stephanas. Hence from all these examples we learn that oida is subjective knowing of a person, which implies a sense of trust. (4) “Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10.33; cf. also Luke 12.9). These two instances of the word “deny” have reference to things in the kingdom. Secret Christians will not perish, yet neither will they be approved by the Lord in the kingdom. “Deny” (arneomai) is to not know (in the oida sense of not knowing) (see Matt. 26.70). It is to contradict, refute, or overturn.

(5) There are similar examples of this matter of knowing and not knowing in the Old Testament, as for instance in 1 Samuel 3.7 (“Now Samuel did not yet know Jehovah”) wherein Samuel had indeed objectively known Jehovah, but he had yet to know the Lord in a subjective way.

(6) The reward of the kingdom is based purely on righteousness. For the Lord to deny has about it the flavor of righteousness. Just as a judge must ask the name of the offender even if the latter is his own son, so the denial here in Matthew 25.12 (“I know you not”) refers to the action and not to the person. It means the Lord cannot accept or approve. v.13 The lesson in this final part of the parable is “watch”—The Lord commands us to be watchful; He does not urge us here to be regenerated and be saved. The “they that were ready” in verse 10 are those who have watched. Thus, “ready” and “watch” are joined into one. To be “ready” means that there is no unfinished business, and one is therefore ready to be reckoned with daily. To “watch” means to so live as to be always ready for the coming of the Lord. We believers should daily be prepared for reckoning. The Lord may come at any time. The five foolish virgins were ready and watching at the beginning, but alas, they did not continue on. The word “ready” here is concerned with self as to whether or not there is anything left undone. The word “watch” on the other hand has its direction towards the Lord; it signifies a waiting to meet Him at any time. To be ready and watchful and waiting, we need the fullness of the Holy Spirit. It will not do if we depend on ourselves, for very soon we will be weakened and become foolish. But if we are filled with the Holy Spirit we will spontaneously bear fruit to the glory to God.

He who is truly watchful often feels he is not yet entirely ready. He does not trust in his own self. This is true humility.

Yet what does it avail if we have such prophecy but are not watchful? Will it not be tragic if we have prophetic knowledge and still suffer loss in the future? Be ready, for the Lord only looks into our lamp and light. Be watchful, because we do not know the day nor the hour. For if we knew, we would have no need to be watchful.

In chapters 24 and 25, five times we are told that no one knows the day of the coming of the Lord. Such intense repetition signifies extreme importance. How unreliable is the concept of our all being raptured after the Great Tribulation; for if that were indeed the case, we would be able to compute most accurately the day of His coming: we would need only to count three years and a half after the image of the beast has been placed in the temple. Yet the reason why the Lord does not inform us of the date is because He wants us to be watchful.

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I just love the fact that you feel so qualified as to judge my eternal destiny, and here I thought that only Christ was able to do that. I believe that this more than any other statement that you have made has declared your hubris. Now I will be the first to admit that I might be wrong in my understanding of scripture. I can admit it. I am fallible. But this I know. I have seen my sinful self. I have accepted my Lord's atonement of my sins on his cross. I am cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb, and I await the soon coming of my Lord, my Savior and My King Jesus Christ. I know that I am a child of the King and NO ONE can take that away. When you disparage my salvation, you disparage the blood that has paid for my sins, and that my friend is a very dangerous path to tread.
I await your responses to my points.

Joshua David

You're misreading what I said. I have not judged your eternal security. I just know for a fact you are at best not an overcomer, therefore, you won't be included in the first rapture nor return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. I know this by God's Holy Spirit in agreement with the word of God and brothers and sisters in Christ who concur. And at worst, you're not even born-again which is very possible considering your antinomianism--no consequences for Christians no matter what they do. Shameful! We shall know you by your fruits. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is. Your kicking against the goads tells me you have big problems.

If you were born-again then you would have no problem accepting consequences for Christians who remain carnal and still babes in Christ. Therein lies your problem that does not agree with God's word. You are wrong, yet you can't repent, indicating some form of demonic possession that has a bind on you which you are unable to shake free because you have given ground to your antinomianism which is pride-filled and delusional; yet, you say you could be wrong. You really don't have much certainty your faith to be that fickle. I don't know this faith you have, it is foreign to me because I am born-again and have God's assuredness in His word not only can a person NOT lose salvation, nor will he be received at the first rapture or return with Christ to reign in the millennial kingdom.

Scripture doesn't make any sense the way you read it and is simply too selfish I am glad such is not God's kingdom.
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australia

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I believe you've won the award for this year's longest post. I didn't read it but had to ask;

If you had a conversation about something with someone and your respondent answered with a reply as long as yours, would you sit and listen?
 

Joshua David

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We don't carry our own prayers to Heaven. That's what the angels do for us
. I suppose you do have scriptural evidence to support this statement? And before you use Rev 4 as your evidence, you can't prove the identity of the the Elders in Chp 4 by using Chp 4 to prove the identity of the Elders. That again is circular logic. This is the exact reason that God said, On the testimony of two or three witnesses let a thing be established. So can you prove this by using other scripture? I am not interested in your logic, I am not interested in your assumptions, I am not interested in links to what someone else wrote. Since this is your main argument as to the identity of the 24 Elders, prove it by scripture. What is the chapter and verse that states that the angels carry our prayers to God? That is unless you are just assuming that Angels carry our prayers to God.


Now I can give you plenty of scripture that tells us to bring our cares, our fears, our wants, and our needs to God in prayer.

Luke 11:9-13 [sup]9[/sup]And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
[sup]10[/sup]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[sup]11[/sup]If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
[sup]12[/sup]Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? <a name="13">
[sup]13[/sup]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Since Lucifer was the greatest angel before his fall, naturally we can assume he was one of the 24 archangels proven in Revelation 4.


So what you are really saying is that this is another assumption by you. You have no scriptural proof that Lucifer was an Archangel.

The Elders of the Universe who did not fall with 1/3 of the angels can be considered most appropriately overcomers in a sense for part of overcoming is keeping what one has. They are 24 archangels who just need to hold onto what they have and not fall with Lucifer. Therefore, your argument is really quite ineffective to try to make them redeemed by blood. I think you have just strengthened the case further for the 24 archangels. It is most intriguing that the one archangel that fell was replaced by the only archangel in the Bible mentioned which was Michael for Israel. I like that. It makes me feel good to know God replaces the fallen one just as Judas was replaced by Matthias.


So then wouldn't all the angels who did not fall with Lucifer be considered overcomers, since they by your own words, "Just needed to hold onto what they have". And if all angels are overcomes, then why aren't all the other unfallen angels seen with crowns? Face it, your argument that the Elders were some type of Rulers of the Universe, was based on the fact that you thought they were wearing ruling crowns. When I showed you that you were in error, your argument kinda falls apart.

You're misreading what I said. I have not judged your eternal security. I just know for a fact you are at best not an overcomer, therefore, you won't be included in the first rapture nor return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. I know this by God's Holy Spirit in agreement with the word of God and brothers and sisters in Christ who concur. And at worst, you're not even born-again which is very possible considering your antinomianism--no consequences for Christians no matter what they do. Shameful! We shall know you by your fruits. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is. Your kicking against the goads tells me you have big problems.
If you were born-again then you would have no problem accepting consequences for Christians who remain carnal and still babes in Christ. Therein lies your problem that does not agree with God's word. You are wrong, yet you can't repent, indicating some form of demonic possession that has a bind on you which you are unable to shake free because you have given ground to your antinomianism which is pride-filled and delusional; yet, you say you could be wrong. You really don't have much certainty your faith to be that fickle. I don't know this faith you have, it is foreign to me because I am born-again and have God's assuredness in His word not only can a person NOT lose salvation, nor will he be received at the first rapture or return with Christ to reign in the millennial kingdom.



You have judged my eternal security, because I had the audacity to disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures. You have declared me unfit to take part of the rapture, unfit to rule, and now you are claiming that I am demon possessed. And then I admit that I am fallible, and that I could be wrong in my interpretation of the scriptures, since I approach the scriptures with a humble heart knowing that I have to rely on him to explain it to me, because I can get it wrong. But since I admit that, you then declare that I am not certain in my faith, and that I am fickle. All I can say is Wow! you really take the cake with that one.

As far as I am concerned, you have shown your true face. I will not be responding to anymore of your posts. I enjoy talking about the bible and discussing scripture, but these conversations are not bringing God any glory. If that is truly how you really feel then I would ask that you pray for me, and just know that I will be praying for you.

Joshua David




 

FaithFirst

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Feb 16, 2011
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I've taken an interest in this thread and believe I can help.

Joshua David said:
What is the chapter and verse that states that the angels carry our prayers to God?
It's explained right there in Revelation itself.

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand" (Rev. 8.3,4).

"Behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it" (Gen. 28.12) taking prayers up to heaven.

"And another angel"—This "another angel" is a priest, hence he must be the Lord Jesus. The prayers of all the saints ascend to God through the incense offered by this angel. No Christian can offer up prayer except by means of incense, which signifies the merits of Christ. Through the sweet savor of Christ a believer’s prayer reaches before God, taken up by angels.

If all angels are overcomes, then why aren't all the other unfallen angels seen with crowns? Face it, your argument that the Elders were some type of Rulers of the Universe, was based on the fact that you thought they were wearing ruling crowns.
Only the 24 archangels would have crowns because they are the ruling archangels.

Hence, you can understand why this is such a powerful proof. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8).

We are to seek after the Lord, but we can't take our prayers up to Heaven. That's the work of the millions of angels whom the 24 Archangels rule over in Heaven. If there are levels of authority in the demonic realm and among evil spirits how could there not be for the Angels in Heaven?
 

Joshua David

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I've taken an interest in this thread and believe I can help.


It's explained right there in Revelation itself.

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand" (Rev. 8.3,4).

"Behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it" (Gen. 28.12) taking prayers up to heaven.

"And another angel"—This "another angel" is a priest, hence he must be the Lord Jesus. The prayers of all the saints ascend to God through the incense offered by this angel. No Christian can offer up prayer except by means of incense, which signifies the merits of Christ. Through the sweet savor of Christ a believer’s prayer reaches before God, taken up by angels.


Only the 24 archangels would have crowns because they are the ruling archangels.

Hence, you can understand why this is such a powerful proof. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8).

We are to seek after the Lord, but we can't take our prayers up to Heaven. That's the work of the millions of angels whom the 24 Archangels rule over in Heaven. If there are levels of authority in the demonic realm and among evil spirits how could there not be for the Angels in Heaven?

Ok the scripture in Rev 8 is a very good scripture, and one that I will study in more detail. Thank you very much for bringing it to my attention. I will study it in detail. But I still would have to disagree with you about the crowns. If the crowns were meant to show any type of rulership then the crowns would have been the a diadem, as shown in Rev 12, 13, and 19.

But I will study it in greater detail since you brought up the scripture in Rev 8. But I do have one question.. Since you say that you believe that this 'Other Angel' is none other than Jesus himself, and we know that Jesus is not an Angel in the sense that we think of angel's, how does that prove that the angels bring God our prayers?

Joshua David


 

FaithFirst

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Feb 16, 2011
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Ok the scripture in Rev 8 is a very good scripture, and one that I will study in more detail. Thank you very much for bringing it to my attention. I will study it in detail. But I still would have to disagree with you about the crowns. If the crowns were meant to show any type of rulership then the crowns would have been the a diadem, as shown in Rev 12, 13, and 19.

But I will study it in greater detail since you brought up the scripture in Rev 8. But I do have one question.. Since you say that you believe that this 'Other Angel' is none other than Jesus himself, and we know that Jesus is not an Angel in the sense that we think of angel's, how does that prove that the angels bring God our prayers?

Joshua David
Since it is clear the angels take up the prayers of the saints then the crowns the archangels wear is because of their rulership and overcoming still for the battle is not yet won yet against the demonic realm. Not all angels, but just the 24 archangels wear the crowns because there is also the aspect of rulership over millions of angels. That's all a crown means here. And they overcometh because they kept their abode and did not fall with 1/3 of the angels. Part of the overcomers life is to simply keep what we are confidently assured of.

Let go of your petty self and that will help let the Scriptures breath life into their meaning. Stephanos is also used on Rev. 9.7 for the crown on evil spirits but obviously those are not crowns of overcoming and spiritually pleasing to God, but of rulership in the demonic realm. So I think you are making a mount out of nothing. Often our flesh tries to find some way to exalt itself. That's all you're trying to do. It's a game of one upmanship which is due to pride of trying to vaunt oneself

I think the question to ask is why use stephanos instead of diadems for the 24 archangels? I think it is because you can only use one term, and to make the choice John went with stephanos because there is also the element of overcoming involved here. In other words, the battle has not yet been won. That seems to be reasonable. There is yet a great war in 2nd heaven that is to take place which Michael will fight for God and for Israel.

Whether Jesus is the "another angel" (Rev. 8.3) or not makes no difference. The aspect of being an "angel" is enough to know the angelic aspect is in taking up the prayers of the saints. It is enough to know it was not man who took up the prayers of the saints, but the hosts of heaven. Praise the Lord. Amen.