Reply: Call no man father

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theefaith

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Call no man father

Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.



Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Isa 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
 

tsr

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Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. (9) Call no man your father. —This also, under its Hebrew form of Abba, was one of the titles in which the scribes delighted.
 

theefaith

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Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. (9) Call no man your father. —This also, under its Hebrew form of Abba, was one of the titles in which the scribes delighted.

so you think it’s absolute?
 

Mungo

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When Protestants quote Mt 23:9 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" and then say Catholics contradict scripture when they call priests father, is I suggest the logical fallacy of equivocation – the word “call” is used with two different meanings.

Firstly Catholics “call” priests father in the same sense as in Mt 23:9

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb “call”. Some of these are specialist terms (e.g. to “call” at poker), but this one is relevant here:.
"8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover."

or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary [less comprehensive with only 8 meanings] puts it:-
[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc.”

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).

It’s Strong G2564
kaleo

Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).


It’s the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13, Mk 2:17 & Lk 5:32. “For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners.”
Or in Lk 14:7-24 where it is translated as ‘invited’ (6 times)

This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary
1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention
2. (tr) to ask or order to come


or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:-
“[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention.”

This is a different meaning of “call” to that used when Protestants say Catholics call their priests father. Following this understanding means there is no contradiction in scripture, or in Catholics “calling” their priests father.

For an example of the other use of "call" meaning addressed
Luke 18:18-19
And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
The ruled addressed Jesus as Good Teacher. Jesus says “"Why do you call me good?”

What Greek word is used as ‘call’ here? – legeis – Strong 3004.

It’s the same root word used in Mt 26:3
“Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas” Called is legomenou (Strong 3004)

Here is a helpful example:
As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. (Mt 4:18-21)

Here are two uses of called. The first meaning named or addressed (Simon who is called Peter) is legomenon (Strong 3004). The second is call in the sense of call out to (he called them) ekalesen (Strong 2564)
 
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Wrangler

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Call no man father

Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

I'm glad you asked. The answer is simple. Take Bible verses literally when they support your doctrine and when they don't, take them figuratively to suppose they support your doctrine.

I call my biological father, "Dad."
 
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Mungo

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I'm glad you asked. The answer is simple. Take Bible verses literally when they support your doctrine and when they don't, take them figuratively to suppose they support your doctrine.

I call my biological father, "Dad."

You just can't let go a stick to beat Catholics with no matter how rotten it is.
 

theefaith

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I'm glad you asked. The answer is simple. Take Bible verses literally when they support your doctrine and when they don't, take them figuratively to suppose they support your doctrine.

I call my biological father, "Dad."


  1. Acts 3:13
    The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
 

ReChoired

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Call no man father

Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!

...
More like misrepresentation of the actual position/argument, where you prop up a straw man to talk to yourself and knock it down. You are arguing against positions which no one (except your straw man) really holds.

Do you want to discuss the text in question from scripture, and the subsequent texts in what they actually say?
 
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theefaith

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I think the straw man is the silly accusation in the first place
 

FHII

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This really shouldn't be hard to understand. There is a spiritual man and an earthly or carnal man. We have our "dads" who are carnal fathers, and in the Bible it extends back to our forefathers.

We have one spiritual Father which is God, or Jesus Christ (he is referred to as the everlasting Father in Isaiah).

Its ok to call your dad "father" (though I don't). But you only have one spiritual father. And frankly, while your dad provided the sperm to the egg to create you, God created that process and the biology. But it is not ok to call a fellow servant of the Lord your "Father" as a spiritual reference.

So no... Priests and Pastors shouldn't be called "Father". They should reject and correct the person that calls them such. Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, priest, bishop even cardinal (maybe) are acceptable and highly honorable titles on their own. Even ambassador, spokesman, or voice of God... But Father? No. Not in the spiritual sense.
 
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ReChoired

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Call no man father
Jesus actually said:

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.​

Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!
Typical 'catholicism' misrepresentation of the argument. Typical straw man and diversion from the issue!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?
Jesus actually said:

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Is this an absolute requirement?
Yes, in the context in which Jesus said it. Now here comes the strawman, and misrepresentation of that context by yourself and 'catholicism'.

Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?
Yes, and also the matter of being called "father", "Rabbi", and "Master" in proper context.

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Yes, and? What strawman here. What does Exodus 3:6 have to do with the proper context of Matthew 23:1-15? Nothing. God is speaking of biological descendancy of the flesh.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Yes, and? What strawman here. What does John 6:49 have to do with the proper context of Matthew 23:1-15? Nothing. Jesus is speaking of biological descendancy of the flesh.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Yes, and? What strawman here. What does Luke 1:55 have to do with the proper context of Matthew 23:1-15? Nothing. Mary is speaking of biological descendancy of the flesh.

Peter calls men father!

Acts3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Yes, and? What strawman here. What does Acts 3:13 have to do with the proper context of Matthew 23:1-15? Nothing. Mary is speaking of biological descendancy of the flesh.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!
Yes, and? What strawman here. What does Acts 7 have to do with the proper context of Matthew 23:1-15? Nothing. Stephen uses the word "father/s" in various ways not contradictory to Jesus' command in Matthew 23. For instance, in Acts 7:2, the word "fathers" refers to those married elders with children, actual fathers in the audience. In Acts 7:4, he refers to Abraham's biological ancestor who sired him, Abraham's father (Terah). What does that have to do with Matthew 23? Nothing. Acts 7:8 he uses the word "patriarchs", which means 'ruling fathers', which describe the ancestors of all the peoples that came out of Egypt, the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel. Again, biological descendancy. Nothing at all counter to Jesus' command in Matthew 23. Acts 7:11,12, is simply using the word "fathers" in the same way as Acts 7:8 uses "patriarchs". Acts 7:14, uses the word "father" to refer to Joseph's biological dad. Nothing contradictory to Matthew 23 here. So likewise all the uses in Acts 7. Biological descendancy.

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Yes, and? What strawman here. What does Luke 16:24 have to do with the proper context of Matthew 23:1-15? Nothing. The Bible (thus Holy Ghost) is speaking of biological descendancy of the flesh, for the 'rich man' speaking was a descendant of Abraham. In fact, the parable of Luke 16, is actually speaking about Judah and the 5 brethren of the same mother. Nothing contradictory to Matthew 23's commands.

Then there is spiritual fathers!
Now, let's get into the real issue.
 

ReChoired

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Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Show me the use of the word "father" in those verses (Acts 20:28; John 21:17; Hebrews 13:17). It doesn't exist in those verses. So these are simply a misuse to try to prove an incorrect a priori.

Acts 20:28 is speaking of the office of 'elder', 'bishop', 'overseer', and even warns of false bishops coming from without and within.

John 21, Jesus refers to three groups, [1] "lambs", The beginners in the faith, [2] "sheep", the 'Jews' in the faith, [3] "sheep", the Gentiles in the faith. The word father is not used. The "lambs" and both "sheep" belong unto Christ Jesus, the Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4).

Hebrews 13:17 is about proper church office, order and structure. Of course there is to be obedience, and submission, even to one another, all being subject to the word of God (James 4:7). Peter says the same as Paul (Hebrews):

1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.​

Hebrews 13 says nothing about calling any such office as elder/bishop/overseer or deacon as a 'father'.

Typical misuse of those texts by 'catholicism' to justify their proud 'preeminence' and dual class system of priest and catechumin.

John warned of such persons:

3Jn_1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.​
 

ReChoired

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1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!
Again, show me where Timothy, the Galatians or those to whom John is writing ever call Paul or John (or Peter) a "father". Quote that verse please. It is non existent.

Notice, Timothy would only be as a 'son' (being brought into and up into the faith) to Paul, and not Peter or John or anyone else (James, Jude, etc). That would refute the 'catholic; system right there, for they expect every priest, bishop, cardinal, pope to be their 'father', and the pope even designated as 'holy father' (blasphemy!). But here is what Paul said to that!

1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co_4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.​

Paul was using symbolic language. He was speaking about being a spiritual teacher and instructor to them in the things of Jesus Christ. He never said that anyone else was their 'father', and in fact just said they did not have "many fathers" as 'catholicism' teaches. Paul's use doesn't contract Matthew 23 either., for that speaks of sitting in Moses' seat of authority, and love to be called "Rabbi", "Master", and "Father". Yet, Romanism, loves to 'lord it over', and have the preeminence.

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.​

Consider what Paul says elsewhere:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?​

It doesn't apply to mature "spiritual" Christians, who Paul, Peter, James, John, etc call "brethren", see also Acts 15.

John is speaking to actual children, as well as their biological "fathers", and the "young men" (the youth in the church), and uses the word "brethren" in 1 John 2:7:

1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.​

Galatians, portrays Paul like a mother (travail in birth "again"), not a father. That would not be according to the 'catholic' standard either.
 
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ReChoired

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...Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
I desire that you do hear the Apostle speaking, for 'catholicism' rejects everything they wrote on as found in the word.

That system truly follows an apostle alright, but it isn't Peter ~ it's Judas, that son of perdition.

As for instance, Why do you not listen to Peter and Paul when they speak on the state of the dead?

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:​

According to scripture, Where is David?

According to 'catholicism', Where is David?
 

ReChoired

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...

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
Why do you not follow the example of the apostles and disciples in the matter of God's law (Exodus 20:1-17), and the Sabbath therein (Exodus 20:8-11)?

The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi)

Genesis 2:1-3; (see also, Genesis 18:19, 26:5, &c.)

The sabbath commandment in the beginning with God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Psalms 119:142).

The sabbath commandment with Adam (Mark 2:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

The sabbath commandment with Enoch (Genesis 5:22,24; Hebrews 11:5; Isaiah 58:13)

The sabbath commandment with Noah (Genesis 6:9; 2 Peter 2:5; Psalms 119:172).

The sabbath commandment with Eber (Genesis 10:21,24-25; Exodus 3:18, 5:3, 7:16).

The sabbath commandment with Abraham (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5; 2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23; John 15:14).

The sabbath commandment with Isaac (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5).

The sabbath commandment with Jacob/Israel (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5, 32:28).

The sabbath commandment with Moses (Exodus 5:4-5;, 16:1-36, 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15, 31:12-18). ...

The sabbath commandment with Jesus (Luke 4:16-19).

The sabbath commandment with the Apostles/Disciples (Acts 1:2, (4:24), 13:14,27,42,44, (14:15), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Hebrews 3:11,18, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 12:17, 14:6-7)

The sabbath commandment with us today (Hebrews 4:9; Revelation 12:17, 14:6-7; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6,8-11).

The sabbath commandment on into eternity (Isaiah 66:23).​

Exodus 5:4-5,8-9, 16:23-30, 20:8-11, 23:12, 31:12-18, 34:21, 35:1-3

Leviticus 19:3,30, 23:3,11,15-16,38, 24:8, 26:2

Numbers 15:32, 28:9

Deuteronomy 5:12-15

2 Kings 4:23, 11:5,7,9, 16:18

1 Chronicles 9:32, 23:31

2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:13, 23:4,8, 31:3

Nehemiah 9:6,14, 10:31,33, 13:15-22

Psalms 92:1, 146:6

Isaiah 56:2,4,6, 58:13, 66:23

Jeremiah 17:21-27

Ezekiel 20:12-24, 22:8,26, 23:38, 44:24, 46:1,3-4,12

Amos 8:5​

The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the New Testament:

Matthew 12:1,2,5,8,10,11,12, 24:20, 28:1;

Mark 1:21, 2:23,24,27,28, 3:2,4, 6:2, 7:6-9, 15:42, 16:1;

Luke 4:16,31, 6:1,2,5,6,7,9, 13:10,14,15,16, 14:1,3,5, 23:54,56;

John 5:9,10,16,18, 7:22,23, 9:14,16, 12:1 (calculated), 19:31;

Acts 1:2, 4:24 (citing Exodus 20:11), 13:14,27,42,44, 14:15 (citing Exodus 20:11), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4;​

Additional references are:

John 12:1 (six days before the Passover, Jesus was at Lazarus' house, on Sabbath)

Hebrews 3:11, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; [Hebrews 4:9 "rest" Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]

Revelation 1:10 [kuriake hemera, "the Lord's Day" [the 7th Day Sabbath, not "the Day of the Lord", this is totally different in the Greek], see Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Deuteronomy 5:12:15, Isaiah 58:13, 66:23, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:27,28; Luke 6:5 ],

Revelation 10:6 [see also Exodus 20:11, 31:17; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 146:6; Acts 4:24, 14:15, Revelation 14:7];

Revelation 14:7 [see previous], etc.​

Additionally, further references in the Greek are [every single 'first [day] of the week' text, as each text clearly shows that the first day is simply a number, with no special association or designation, other than it is simply one day toward the culmination of the week, being the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God]:

Genesis 1:5 (Masoretes Hebrew) יום אחד׃ (Transliterated) yôm echäd f

Matthew 28:1(a) - (Koine Greek) οψε δε σαββατων (Transliterated) oye de sabbatwn

Matthew 28:1(b) - (Koine Greek) εις μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) eiV mian sabbatwn

Mark 16:2 - (Koine Greek) και λιαν πρωι της μιας σαββατων (Transliterated) kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn

Mark 16:9 - (Koine Greek) αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου (Transliterated) anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou

Luke 24:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn

John 20:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn

John 20:19 - (Koine Greek) τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th mia twn sabbatwn

Acts 20:7 - (Koine Greek) εν δε τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) en de th mia twn sabbatwn

1 Corinthians 16:2 - (Koine Greek) κατα μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) kata mian sabbatwn​

That the Sabbath [of the Lord thy God], [being] the 7th day, is always the culmination of the week in God's Created order and is always referred to as such in all of scripture.

Therefore, every single “first [day] of the week” text upholds the 7th Day Sabbath, and is undeniable evidence of its continued existence and prominence.

The body of believers may gather on any and every day with no injunction anywhere found in scripture against such, and in truth they met "daily", "continually", etc (Mat 26:55; Mar 14:49; Luk 22:53, 24:33,36; Acts 19:9) and likewise among the followers of Jesus Christ (Luk 24:51,53; Acts 1:3,9, 2:46-47, 5:42, 6:1, 16:5, 17:11,17; Heb 3:13, etc). None of that extra gathering, is qualification of disobedience to (breaking) the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17), especially the 4th (Exodus 20:8-11) in its explicit command to "rest" and not "work" "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD". As for instance, we met last night for prayer meeting. It does not replace my need to obey the 4th commandment and fulfill its requirements by and in the grace of God and the Holy Ghost (Romans 8:4).

Just in the book of Acts alone, there are over 78 sabbaths explicitly recorded.

Acts 13:14,27,42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4, (20:6, 21:4, 28:14; Paul always waited seven days, so that he could keep the Sabbath with fellow Jews, and Proselytes (see Acts 2:10; 13:26,42-43,44,45-46,47-49, 14:1,2,15-16, 15:17,19,21, 17:17) and preach the gospel upon that sacred day (Acts 17:2), just as Jesus had; Luke 4:16-21).

John was still keeping the sabbath (of the LORD, the 7th day, "the Lord's day"; Revelation 1:10; Isaiah 58:13; just as Jesus had said so long before; Matthew 24:20) in AD 90+.

The first day of the week was no more special than any other of the six working days. Yet the sabbath, the 7th day, the Lord's day was always special, always gathered on and therein rested.
 

Mungo

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I gave the answer to this false accusation in post #4 but no-one seems to have commented.
Was it too long?

Here is a simple version:

Protestants say:
Jesus says "call no man father"
Catholics call their priests father.
Therefore Catholics are wrong.

But that is a fallacious argument because it employs equivocation.
Using the proper Greek word for "call" in each case it would be:
Jesus says "kaleo no man father."
Catholics legeis their priests father.
There there is no conflict.
 

ReChoired

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I gave the answer to this false accusation in post #4 but no-one seems to have commented.
Was it too long?

Here is a simple version:

Protestants say:
Jesus says "call no man father"
Catholics call their priests father.
Therefore Catholics are wrong.

But that is a fallacious argument because it employs equivocation.
Using the proper Greek word for "call" in each case it would be:
Jesus says "kaleo no man father."
Catholics legeis their priests father.
There there is no conflict.
What a crock of "equivocation"! You are the one equivocating! You just said you do not understand the technicalities of Greek ("I do not understand the technicalities of Greek"), and you claim to use a Greek term "legeis" to refer to a man in a religious authoritative position as "father", rather than "kalesete"? What a crock! Then the question comes back to you, Why do you "legeis" a catholic priest "father"? in other words, Why are you saying ("legeis") that a catholic priest is "father", if you do not call him/identify him (kalesete) him as such in religious authority? Are they your biological daddy? (well, to give credit, in catholicism, that is possible, with all the child abuse, rape, mistresses, etc that goes on therein)

Here is a helpful example:
As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. (Mt 4:18-21)

In Latin, its the same root word, (vocare):

Mat 4:18 ambulans autem iuxta mare Galilaeae vidit duos fratres Simonem qui vocatur Petrus et Andream fratrem eius mittentes rete in mare erant enim piscatores
Mat 4:19 et ait illis venite post me et faciam vos fieri piscatores hominum
Mat 4:20 at illi continuo relictis retibus secuti sunt eum
Mat 4:21 et procedens inde vidit alios duos fratres Iacobum Zebedaei et Iohannem fratrem eius in navi cum Zebedaeo patre eorum reficientes retia sua et vocavit eos
In koine Greek, "λεγεις" (Matthew 19:17; G3004), "legeis", simply means to "say, or saying, or speak". In other words, Jesus asked, "Why are you saying I am Good?", but it also has other uses (having a broader meaning), and can be used just like "kalesete" is used.

In koine Greek, "καλεσητε" (Matthew 23:9; G2564), "kalesete", simply mean to "name, call (identify by name/character), call (forth, out), etc". In other words, Jesus said, "Do not call (call out, as in to identify, or name (see Luke 2:21, 19:2, 20:44; Acts 7:58, 15:37) those religious leaders (vs 2) on earth as your father (not in blood matters, but authoritative ones in regards religion)."

In Matthew 9:9, and Mark 15:7, the "λεγομενον" ("named" (Matthew)), the "λεγομενος" ("named" (Barabbas)) are used as in a naming, or calling a name, just as "kalesete" is used in other places, like Matthew 23:9. Even in Luke 18:17, "λεγω" is used in a manner that it means both 'saying', and 'identifying'/'naming' Jesus as "good". This is why Jesus asked the return question. The man was not merely 'saying' that Jesus was good, but identified Jesus as actually good, even "good Master". Both words can be used to mean as a 'call' to come, such as "bid" (etc),

G2564 - Kaleo -- Matthew 22:3-4,8,9; 1 Corinthians 10:27; Luke 7:39, 14:7-8,9-10,12,16,17,24, 20:44; John 10:3; Romans 4:17. 9:11; Galatians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:24, etc.

G3004 - lego -- Acts 25:20; 2 John 1:10-11

Same uses.

See also Luk_20:37 (2), 1Co_12:3, Rev_2:20

called, 37
Mat_1:16, Mat_2:23, Mat_4:18, Mat_10:2, Mat_13:55, Mat_26:3, Mat_26:14, Mat_26:36, Mat_27:16-17 (2), Mat_27:22, Mat_27:33, Luk_22:1, Luk_22:47, Joh_4:5, Joh_4:25, Joh_9:11, Joh_11:16, Joh_11:54, Joh_19:13, Joh_19:17 (2), Joh_20:24, Act_3:2 (2), Act_6:9, Act_9:36, 1Co_8:5, Col_4:11 (3), 2Th_2:4, Heb_7:11, Heb_9:2-3 (2), Heb_11:24, Rev_8:11

Jesus is "called"" (Matthew 1:16; λεγομενος) Christ.

Your 'argument', your 'equivocation' is debunked.
 

Brakelite

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The very fact that there is a class within Catholicism designated as 'priests', and therefore qualified/appointed to offer sacrifice, (in direct blasphemous denial of the one sacrifice of our Lord and Saviour) is blasphemy, and calling that same one father identifies you as partaking of the same blasphemy.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
 
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Mungo

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What a crock of "equivocation"! ......

Your 'argument', your 'equivocation' is debunked.

No it is not debunked. The Latin is irrelevant. The NT was written in Greek so it's the Greek that matters.

I don't understand Greek declensions but I can understand the differences between different Greek words.
And As I said in post #4 an Orthodox priest- who is also a Greek translator said "the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth"

Here is more of what the priest said:
In fact, this whole dispute is the result of a misunderstanding of the word most often translated “call” in this passage of Matthew 23.9:

καὶ πατέρα μὴ καλέσητε ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς εἷς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν, ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς
Literally:

And father no summon of you on the earth one for is the father of you (pl.) who is in the heavens

Notice the word translated in many English bibles as “call” is not any of the words that mean to say a name or a title. It is not the word λέγω or εἴρηκα as we see in John 15.15: “No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. “ Nor is it the term ὀνομαζόμενος found in 1 Cor. 5.11, where it speaks of those who are “called” by the name/title “brother” who do not behave as such: “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”

Rather, in Matthew 23.9 it is the word καλέσητε.

The aorist active verb καλέσητε in Matthew 23.9 means to call forth, invite, to summon, and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form. It does not mean to “call” in the sense of addressing someone by a title such as apostle, father, mother, brother, lord, etc. (ὠνόμασεν for example as in Mark 3.14, Luke 6.13, 1 Cor. 5.11, 2 Timothy 2.19, Rom 15.20), but “to call” in the sense of to summon, bid, invite, call forth, invoke (καλέσητε).

We can confirm this simply by examining this aorist active verb in every single aorist active usage appearing in Scripture:

Matt. 22.9: πορεύεσθε οὖν ἐπὶ τὰς διεξόδους τῶν ὁδῶν καὶ ὅσους ἐὰν εὕρητε καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς γάμους.
“Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.” (Second Person Aorist Active Imperative Plural)

Matthew 20.8:
ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης λέγει ὁ κύριος τοῦ ἀμπελῶνος τῷ ἐπιτρόπῳ αὐτοῦ κάλεσον τοὺς ἐργάτας καὶ ἀπόδος [αὐτοῖς] τὸν μισθὸν ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῶν ἐσχάτων ἕως τῶν πρώτων.
When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.' (Second Person Aorist Active Imperative Singular)

Matthew 2:7 Τότε Ἡρῴδης λάθρᾳ καλέσας τοὺς μάγους ἠκρίβωσεν παρ' αὐτῶν τὸν χρόνον τοῦ φαινομένου ἀστέρος,
Then Herod secretly called the wise men, and learned from them exactly what time the star appeared.

As one can see here, if someone were to use this term and say “call no wise men” on earth, it is not referring to calling them by the title of wise men, but rather summoning them in a particular fashion, in this case, as royal subjective tattletales. In the case of Matthew 23.9 it is summoning no one in prayer as you would the Father. But let us continue:

Luke 7:39 ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ Φαρισαῖος ὁ καλέσας αὐτὸν εἶπεν ἐν ἑαυτῷ λέγων οὗτος εἰ ἦν (ὁ) προφήτης, ἐγίνωσκεν ἂν τίς καὶ ποταπὴ ἡ γυνὴ ἥτις ἅπτεται αὐτοῦ ὅτι ἁμαρτωλός ἐστιν.
Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "This man, if he were a prophet, would have perceived who and what kind of woman this is who touches him, that she is a sinner."

Luke 14:9 καὶ ἐλθὼν ὁ σὲ καὶ αὐτὸν καλέσας ἐρεῖ σοι δὸς τούτῳ τόπον, καὶ τότε ἄρξῃ μετὰ αἰσχύνης τὸν ἔσχατον τόπον κατέχειν.
and he who invited both of you would come and tell you, 'Make room for this person.' Then you would begin, with shame, to take the lowest place.

Luke 19:13 καλέσας δὲ δέκα δούλους ἑαυτοῦ ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς δέκα μνᾶς καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς πραγματεύσασθαι / πραγματεύσασθε ἐν ᾧ ἔρχομαι.
He called ten servants of his, and gave them ten mina coins, and told them, 'Conduct business until I come.'

Galatians 1:15 ὅτε δὲ εὐδόκησεν ὁ θεὸς ὁ ἀφορίσας με ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου καὶ καλέσας διὰ τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ
But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace,

1 Peter 5:10 ὁ δὲ θεὸς πάσης χάριτος, ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν ἐν Χριστῷ, [Ἰησοῦ] ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει. [θεμελιώσει]
But may the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. (aorist active participle nominative singular masculine)

Gal. 1.6 Θαυμάζω ὅτι οὕτως ταχέως μετατίθεσθε ἀπὸ τοῦ καλέσαντος ὑμᾶς ἐν χάριτι Χριστοῦ εἰς ἕτερον εὐαγγέλιον,
I marvel that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different "good news";
Aorist Active Participle Genitive Singular Masculine

Act 4.18 καὶ καλέσαντες αὐτοὺς παρήγγειλαν [τὸ] καθόλου μὴ φθέγγεσθαι μηδὲ διδάσκειν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ Ἰησοῦ.
They called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
Aorist Active Participle Nominative Plural Masculine

Matthew 22:3 καὶ ἀπέστειλεν τοὺς δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους εἰς τοὺς γάμους, καὶ οὐκ ἤθελον ἐλθεῖν.
and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast, but they would not come.
Aorist Active Infinitive

Matt. 9.13
πορευθέντες δὲ μάθετε τί ἐστιν ἔλεος θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν οὐ γὰρ ἦλθον καλέσαι δικαίους ἀλλὰ ἁμαρτωλούς.
But you go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Mark 2:17 καὶ ἀκούσας ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς ὅτι οὐ χρείαν ἔχουσιν οἱ ἰσχύοντες ἰατροῦ ἀλλ' οἱ κακῶς ἔχοντες οὐκ ἦλθον καλέσαι δικαίους ἀλλὰ ἁμαρτωλούς.
When Jesus heard it, he said to them, "Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Luke 5:32 οὐκ ἐλήλυθα καλέσαι δικαίους ἀλλὰ ἁμαρτωλοὺς εἰς μετάνοιαν.
“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

We see this bidding in conjunction with salvation:
Romans 10.13: πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπι-καλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου σωθήσεται
“Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (third person aorist middle subjunctive singular).

Again let us return to the text of Matt. 23.9:

καὶ πατέρα μὴ καλέσητε ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς εἷς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν, ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς

Literally:

And father no summon (“call forth”) of you on the earth one for is the father of you (pl.) who is in the heavens

Summon how? In prayer: compare these two:

πατὴρ ὑμῶν, ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Matt. 23.9) Your Father who is in heaven
πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Matt. 6.9) Our Father who is in heaven

“Call” (summon, bid) in Matt. 23 is “pray” in Matt. 6:



He said more but I will leave it at that for now.
 

Mungo

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The very fact that there is a class within Catholicism designated as 'priests', and therefore qualified/appointed to offer sacrifice, (in direct blasphemous denial of the one sacrifice of our Lord and Saviour) is blasphemy, and calling that same one father identifies you as partaking of the same blasphemy.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

It's not a direct blasphemous denial of the one sacrifice of our Lord and Saviour.
It is not blasphemy.
Your saying so does not make it so.