Reply: Call no man father

theefaith · Jun 4, 2021

ReChoired said:
Show me the use of the word "father" in those verses (Acts 20:28; John 21:17; Hebrews 13:17). It doesn't exist in those verses. So these are simply a misuse to try to prove an incorrect a priori.

Acts 20:28 is speaking of the office of 'elder', 'bishop', 'overseer', and even warns of false bishops coming from without and within.

John 21, Jesus refers to three groups, [1] "lambs", The beginners in the faith, [2] "sheep", the 'Jews' in the faith, [3] "sheep", the Gentiles in the faith. The word father is not used. The "lambs" and both "sheep" belong unto Christ Jesus, the Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4).

Hebrews 13:17 is about proper church office, order and structure. Of course there is to be obedience, and submission, even to one another, all being subject to the word of God (James 4:7). Peter says the same as Paul (Hebrews):

1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Hebrews 13 says nothing about calling any such office as elder/bishop/overseer or deacon as a 'father'.

Typical misuse of those texts by 'catholicism' to justify their proud 'preeminence' and dual class system of priest and catechumin.

John warned of such persons:

3Jn_1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

Isa 22 father

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

That makes Paul his spiritual father

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

he is speaking to adult Christian
That makes him there father

theefaith · Jun 4, 2021

ReChoired said:
I desire that you do hear the Apostle speaking, for 'catholicism' rejects everything they wrote on as found in the word.

That system truly follows an apostle alright, but it isn't Peter ~ it's Judas, that son of perdition.

As for instance, Why do you not listen to Peter and Paul when they speak on the state of the dead?

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

According to scripture, Where is David?

According to 'catholicism', Where is David?

man has both a body and a soul

are you defending soul sleep

only the body goes in the ground

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

theefaith · Jun 4, 2021

ReChoired said:
Why do you not follow the example of the apostles and disciples in the matter of God's law (Exodus 20:1-17), and the Sabbath therein (Exodus 20:8-11)?

The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi)

Genesis 2:1-3; (see also, Genesis 18:19, 26:5, &c.)

The sabbath commandment in the beginning with God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Psalms 119:142).

The sabbath commandment with Adam (Mark 2:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

The sabbath commandment with Enoch (Genesis 5:22,24; Hebrews 11:5; Isaiah 58:13)

The sabbath commandment with Noah (Genesis 6:9; 2 Peter 2:5; Psalms 119:172).

The sabbath commandment with Eber (Genesis 10:21,24-25; Exodus 3:18, 5:3, 7:16).

The sabbath commandment with Abraham (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5; 2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23; John 15:14).

The sabbath commandment with Isaac (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5).

The sabbath commandment with Jacob/Israel (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5, 32:28).

The sabbath commandment with Moses (Exodus 5:4-5;, 16:1-36, 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15, 31:12-18). ...

The sabbath commandment with Jesus (Luke 4:16-19).

The sabbath commandment with the Apostles/Disciples (Acts 1:2, (4:24), 13:14,27,42,44, (14:15), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Hebrews 3:11,18, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 12:17, 14:6-7)

The sabbath commandment with us today (Hebrews 4:9; Revelation 12:17, 14:6-7; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6,8-11).

The sabbath commandment on into eternity (Isaiah 66:23).
Exodus 5:4-5,8-9, 16:23-30, 20:8-11, 23:12, 31:12-18, 34:21, 35:1-3

Leviticus 19:3,30, 23:3,11,15-16,38, 24:8, 26:2

Numbers 15:32, 28:9

Deuteronomy 5:12-15

2 Kings 4:23, 11:5,7,9, 16:18

1 Chronicles 9:32, 23:31

2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:13, 23:4,8, 31:3

Nehemiah 9:6,14, 10:31,33, 13:15-22

Psalms 92:1, 146:6

Isaiah 56:2,4,6, 58:13, 66:23

Jeremiah 17:21-27

Ezekiel 20:12-24, 22:8,26, 23:38, 44:24, 46:1,3-4,12

Amos 8:5
The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the New Testament:

Matthew 12:1,2,5,8,10,11,12, 24:20, 28:1;

Mark 1:21, 2:23,24,27,28, 3:2,4, 6:2, 7:6-9, 15:42, 16:1;

Luke 4:16,31, 6:1,2,5,6,7,9, 13:10,14,15,16, 14:1,3,5, 23:54,56;

John 5:9,10,16,18, 7:22,23, 9:14,16, 12:1 (calculated), 19:31;

Acts 1:2, 4:24 (citing Exodus 20:11), 13:14,27,42,44, 14:15 (citing Exodus 20:11), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4;

Additional references are:

John 12:1 (six days before the Passover, Jesus was at Lazarus' house, on Sabbath)

Hebrews 3:11, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; [Hebrews 4:9 "rest" Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]

Revelation 1:10 [kuriake hemera, "the Lord's Day" [the 7th Day Sabbath, not "the Day of the Lord", this is totally different in the Greek], see Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Deuteronomy 5:12:15, Isaiah 58:13, 66:23, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:27,28; Luke 6:5 ],

Revelation 10:6 [see also Exodus 20:11, 31:17; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 146:6; Acts 4:24, 14:15, Revelation 14:7];

Revelation 14:7 [see previous], etc.

Additionally, further references in the Greek are [every single 'first [day] of the week' text, as each text clearly shows that the first day is simply a number, with no special association or designation, other than it is simply one day toward the culmination of the week, being the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God]:

Genesis 1:5 (Masoretes Hebrew) יום אחד׃ (Transliterated) yôm echäd f

Matthew 28:1(a) - (Koine Greek) οψε δε σαββατων (Transliterated) oye de sabbatwn

Matthew 28:1(b) - (Koine Greek) εις μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) eiV mian sabbatwn

Mark 16:2 - (Koine Greek) και λιαν πρωι της μιας σαββατων (Transliterated) kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn

Mark 16:9 - (Koine Greek) αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου (Transliterated) anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou

Luke 24:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn

John 20:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn

John 20:19 - (Koine Greek) τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th mia twn sabbatwn

Acts 20:7 - (Koine Greek) εν δε τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) en de th mia twn sabbatwn

1 Corinthians 16:2 - (Koine Greek) κατα μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) kata mian sabbatwn

That the Sabbath [of the Lord thy God], [being] the 7th day, is always the culmination of the week in God's Created order and is always referred to as such in all of scripture.

Therefore, every single “first [day] of the week” text upholds the 7th Day Sabbath, and is undeniable evidence of its continued existence and prominence.

The body of believers may gather on any and every day with no injunction anywhere found in scripture against such, and in truth they met "daily", "continually", etc (Mat 26:55; Mar 14:49; Luk 22:53, 24:33,36; Acts 19:9) and likewise among the followers of Jesus Christ (Luk 24:51,53; Acts 1:3,9, 2:46-47, 5:42, 6:1, 16:5, 17:11,17; Heb 3:13, etc). None of that extra gathering, is qualification of disobedience to (breaking) the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17), especially the 4th (Exodus 20:8-11) in its explicit command to "rest" and not "work" "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD". As for instance, we met last night for prayer meeting. It does not replace my need to obey the 4th commandment and fulfill its requirements by and in the grace of God and the Holy Ghost (Romans 8:4).

Just in the book of Acts alone, there are over 78 sabbaths explicitly recorded.

Acts 13:14,27,42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4, (20:6, 21:4, 28:14; Paul always waited seven days, so that he could keep the Sabbath with fellow Jews, and Proselytes (see Acts 2:10; 13:26,42-43,44,45-46,47-49, 14:1,2,15-16, 15:17,19,21, 17:17) and preach the gospel upon that sacred day (Acts 17:2), just as Jesus had; Luke 4:16-21).

John was still keeping the sabbath (of the LORD, the 7th day, "the Lord's day"; Revelation 1:10; Isaiah 58:13; just as Jesus had said so long before; Matthew 24:20) in AD 90+.

The first day of the week was no more special than any other of the six working days. Yet the sabbath, the 7th day, the Lord's day was always special, always gathered on and therein rested.

the day of the resurrection is not special?

the holy church has authority to make Sunday the Lord’s day

ReChoired · Jun 4, 2021

Mungo said:
an Orthodox priest

Same ol' catholics. Try consulting the Bible, instead of a priest, who obviously hasn't read his bible in koine Greek. I provided the references which refute you and him. I should think that the Holy Ghost speaks better koine Greek than you both.

Brakelite · Jun 4, 2021

theefaith said:
man has both a body and a soul

are you defending soul sleep

only the body goes in the ground

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

He would be in good company. The writers of the NT declared that 'the patriarch David' actually was still sleeping in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

Mungo · Jun 4, 2021

ReChoired said:
Same ol' catholics. Try consulting the Bible, instead of a priest, who obviously hasn't read his bible in koine Greek.

Really. Who are you to judge that?

ReChoired said:
I provided the references which refute you and him

Dream on!

ReChoired said:
I should think that the Holy Ghost speaks better koine Greek than you both.

And you are infallibly inspired by the Holy Ghost?

Mungo · Jun 4, 2021

Backlit said:
He would be in good company. The writers of the NT declared that 'the patriarch David' actually was still sleeping in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

I notice that, like a lot of Protestants, you make claims about the Bible but don't quote or give references.

Do you actually have a Bible?
If so have you read it or just quote vague things people have said to you.?

theefaith · Jun 4, 2021

Backlit said:
He would be in good company. The writers of the NT declared that 'the patriarch David' actually was still sleeping in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

no only the body goes in the grave

with the original sin of Adam heaven was closed signified by the angel with the flaming sword at the entrance to the garden of eden and the veil in the temple
The garden and the holy of Holies represented heaven

untill the sacrifice of Christ his passion death and resurrection heaven was closed
The souls saints of the old covenants went to Sheol or Abraham’s bosom

theefaith · Jun 4, 2021

Mungo said:
Really. Who are you to judge that?

Dream on!

And you are infallibly inspired by the Holy Ghost?

Yes only the holy church of the apostles have the promise or guarantee of the HS
Jn 8:32 and Jn 16:13 only to the apostles then they are commanded by Christ to teach the people matt 28:19
Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

where’s that verse that says pass out bibles and let the people make there own doctrine???

Wrangler · Jun 4, 2021

Mungo said:
You just can't let go a stick to beat Catholics with no matter how rotten it is.

I see. A Catholic opens a thread with 'Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!' the you claim victimhood with the return volley. Nice!

ReChoired · Jun 4, 2021

This thread has reached its conclusion. They have been answered by scripture, and have not refuted that material. They have refused scripture, and as always continually quote themselves, all the while, getting away with straw-manning positions, and then reducing the conversation to merely epithets and egging on. Their religion is known by all. Moving on.

theefaith · Jun 4, 2021

ReChoired said:
This thread has reached its conclusion. They have been answered by scripture, and have not refuted that material. They have refused scripture, and as always continually quote themselves, all the while, getting away with straw-manning positions, and then reducing the conversation to merely epithets and egging on. Their religion is known by all. Moving on.

that’s a nice opinion

theefaith · Jun 4, 2021

Scripture does not forbid it, fundamentalism does

Brakelite · Jun 4, 2021

Mungo said:
I notice that, like a lot of Protestants, you make claims about the Bible but don't quote or give references.

Do you actually have a Bible?
If so have you read it or just quote vague things people have said to you.?

KJV Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Mungo · Jun 5, 2021

Backlit said:
KJV Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

That doesn't say that "'the patriarch David' actually was still sleeping in the grave awaiting the resurrection." as you claimed.

It says he was dead and buried. Nothing about soul sleep.
Is that why you didn't give a reference - because it doesn't support your claim?

theefaith said:
no only the body goes in the grave

with the original sin of Adam heaven was closed signified by the angel with the flaming sword at the entrance to the garden of eden and the veil in the temple
The garden and the holy of Holies represented heaven

untill the sacrifice of Christ his passion death and resurrection heaven was closed
The souls saints of the old covenants went to Sheol or Abraham’s bosom

BreadOfLife · Jun 5, 2021

ReChoired said:
Again, show me where Timothy, the Galatians or those to whom John is writing ever call Paul or John (or Peter) a "father". Quote that verse please. It is non existent.

Notice, Timothy would only be as a 'son' (being brought into and up into the faith) to Paul, and not Peter or John or anyone else (James, Jude, etc). That would refute the 'catholic; system right there, for they expect every priest, bishop, cardinal, pope to be their 'father', and the pope even designated as 'holy father' (blasphemy!). But here is what Paul said to that!

1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co_4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

Paul was using symbolic language. He was speaking about being a spiritual teacher and instructor to them in the things of Jesus Christ. He never said that anyone else was their 'father', and in fact just said they did not have "many fathers" as 'catholicism' teaches. Paul's use doesn't contract Matthew 23 either., for that speaks of sitting in Moses' seat of authority, and love to be called "Rabbi", "Master", and "Father". Yet, Romanism, loves to 'lord it over', and have the preeminence.

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Consider what Paul says elsewhere:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

It doesn't apply to mature "spiritual" Christians, who Paul, Peter, James, John, etc call "brethren", see also Acts 15.

John is speaking to actual children, as well as their biological "fathers", and the "young men" (the youth in the church), and uses the word "brethren" in 1 John 2:7:

1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Galatians, portrays Paul like a mother (travail in birth "again"), not a father. That would not be according to the 'catholic' standard either.

- GOD said, “Honor your FATHER and your mother (Exod. 20:12).

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).

- Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).

- Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).

- Paul writes, "For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

- Paul said, "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).

- Once again, Paul writes, "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).

- Paul emphatically states, "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS" (1 Cor. 12:28).

The asinine anti-Catholic argument that says we are "forbidden" to call men "Father" or "Teacher" is SQUASHED by the Word of God.
Game.
Set.
MATCH . . .

FHII · Jun 5, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
The asinine anti-Catholic argument that says we are "forbidden" to call men "Father" or "Teacher" is SQUASHED by the Word of God.
Game.
Set.

Well, I was wondering when you would show up, and I am glad you did. We have unsettled business on this issue from many years ago! This is not a new argument: not in history nor on this board. You and I discussed this once and you got the final word because the moderators shut the discussion down before I could reapond. I even sent you a PM about it.

First, I've already stated that the use of the term "father" is permissable when talking about a dad or even in other forms of biological linage. That addresses you first 4 scriptural references.

Its the 5th one that is question:

1 Corinthians 4:14 KJV
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

Paul calms them sons but not HIS sons... Furthermore he doesn't call himself their Father.

1 Corinthians 4:15 KJV
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

First off, a widely used defense of people who think its ok to call another man "father" is that Matthew 23:9 is a hyperbole. Its not! It is actually possible not to call another man your spiritual father.

But 1 Cor 4:15 does contain a real hyperbole or outlandish exaggeration: chances are no one has had 10,000 instructors (or teachers) in Christ. So God knows the difference... He knows how tk use them and no, Matthew 23 isn't a hyperbole.

Second, Paul never calls himself Father or a father in this verse. He painstakingly says it was through Jesus and the gospel that he "begat" them. "Begotten" means to bring forth. Paul did that through Jesus and through the gospel. It was a preacher using the tools to get the job done.Paul was a messenger, an angel, an Apostle and a preacher giving information and cultivating faith in the Father, but he was not a father.

You last 3 references deal with "teacher". I know where you are going on this... You want to bring up the term "rabbi".

Its the same argument. Yes you need a teacher and the Bible uses the word teacher quite a bit. What is truly meant here in hunan terms is that God creates the curriculum. He has teachers to teach it. They dont make the curriculum; they just teach it. Thats what Paul did, thats what Peter did and thats what the rest of them did.

They only taught the people what God told them to teach... So who was the teacher?

But lets get back to the original problem:

Matthew 23:9 KJV
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

While you defend your offending this verse, what do you do with it? My biological dad passed away, but I stopped calling him my father years before he did. I still honored him, but no... Its not a hyperbole, because I did it. So when Jesus said this, what did he really mean?

I think he meant call no man your spiritual father. Call a priest a priest (which is a high honor). But don't call him father.

BreadOfLife · Jun 5, 2021

FHII said:
Well, I was wondering when you would show up, and I am glad you did. We have unsettled business on this issue from many years ago! This is not a new argument: not in history nor on this board. You and I discussed this once and you got the final word because the moderators shut the discussion down before I could reapond. I even sent you a PM about it.

First, I've already stated that the use of the term "father" is permissable when talking about a dad or even in other forms of biological linage. That addresses you first 4 scriptural references.

Its the 5th one that is question:

1 Corinthians 4:14 KJV
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

Paul calms them sons but not HIS sons... Furthermore he doesn't call himself their Father.

1 Corinthians 4:15 KJV
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

First off, a widely used defense of people who think its ok to call another man "father" is that Matthew 23:9 is a hyperbole. Its not! It is actually possible not to call another man your spiritual father.

But 1 Cor 4:15 does contain a real hyperbole or outlandish exaggeration: chances are no one has had 10,000 instructors (or teachers) in Christ. So God knows the difference... He knows how tk use them and no, Matthew 23 isn't a hyperbole.

Second, Paul never calls himself Father or a father in this verse. He painstakingly says it was through Jesus and the gospel that he "begat" them. "Begotten" means to bring forth. Paul did that through Jesus and through the gospel. It was a preacher using the tools to get the job done.Paul was a messenger, an angel, an Apostle and a preacher giving information and cultivating faith in the Father, but he was not a father.

You last 3 references deal with "teacher". I know where you are going on this... You want to bring up the term "rabbi".

Its the same argument. Yes you need a teacher and the Bible uses the word teacher quite a bit. What is truly meant here in hunan terms is that God creates the curriculum. He has teachers to teach it. They dont make the curriculum; they just teach it. Thats what Paul did, thats what Peter did and thats what the rest of them did.

They only taught the people what God told them to teach... So who was the teacher?

But lets get back to the original problem:

Matthew 23:9 KJV
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

While you defend your offending this verse, what do you do with it? My biological dad passed away, but I stopped calling him my father years before he did. I still honored him, but no... Its not a hyperbole, because I did it. So when Jesus said this, what did he really mean?

I think he meant call no man your spiritual father. Call a priest a priest (which is a high honor). But don't call him father.

Like I always say - when in doubt, go to the original languages.

The Greek word used here in 1 Cor. 4:15 is ghen-nah'-o (γενναο), which means "FATHER".
This word is NOT the normal word for a "father" (pat-ayr') who physically sires a child - but for a "father" who spiritually becomes a father:
- of men who fathered children
- to engender, cause to arise, excite
- in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
- of God making Christ his son
- of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
(Strong's Greek Lexicon)

Paul explicitly calls HIMSELF a "Father" to the Corinthians - in the spiritual sense.
What Jesus forbade was the usurping of our Father in Heaven. No man is to be considered a Father or Teacher ABOVE our Father and Teacher in Heaven.
HOWEVER - we DO have Fathers (1 Cor. 4:15) and Teachers (1 Cor. 12:28) within the Body of Christ.

FHII · Jun 5, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
Like I always say - when in doubt, go to the original languages.

No. You only say that when you THINK it supports your stance. By the way, you dodged the queston I asked you... I suspect tou will continue that trend.

BreadOfLife said:
The Greek word used here in 1 Cor. 4:15 is ghen-nah'-o (γενναο), which means "FATHER".
This word is NOT the normal word for a "father" (pat-ayr') who physically sires a child - but for a "father" who spiritually becomes a father:

Really? Where? Where does Paul use that word? I'm looking on Biblehub.com and I don't see it! I see ἐγέννησα.... That means begotten. It means to begat or bring forth... Just like I said it did! It does NOT mean father!

Furthermore, you ignore the hard FACT that he did it through Christ and the Gospel.

theefaith · Jun 5, 2021

FHII said:
No. You only say that when you THINK it supports your stance. By the way, you dodged the queston I asked you... I suspect tou will continue that trend.

Really? Where? Where does Paul use that word? I'm looking on Biblehub.com and I don't see it! I see ἐγέννησα.... That means begotten. It means to begat or bring forth... Just like I said it did! It does NOT mean father!

Furthermore, you ignore the hard FACT that he did it through Christ and the Gospel.

Jn 15:5

Reply: Call no man father

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads