Does the Bible teach the need for an initimate personal relationship with Christ?

Berserk · Jun 3, 2021

Mike is a devout evangelical friend with congestive heart failure. He is a lifelong believer, attends church regularly, leads a weekly Bible study, and visits shut-ins. Mike's pastor recently preached a sermon in which he claimed, "If you don't have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ," then you're not saved." Mike took exception to that because (1) he doesn't think he has a discernible personal relationship with Christ and (2) he questions whether that phrase is even biblically sound. For example, Mormons and Muslims challenge skeptics to ask God or Allah whether the Book of Mormon or the Quran is God's Word and promise that the truth of these works will be directly confirmed in their spirits. Evangelicals dismiss such "confirmations" as deluded subjective experience warped by wishful thinking, but then don't ask why Mormons and Muslims might not level the same charge against their own claims of verification from the witness of the Holy Spirit. Mike is well aware of verses like John 14:23, Rev. 3:20, and Colossians 1:19, but thinks such verses express faith conviction and doctrine, but not necessarily a discernibly valid experience of a "personal relationship" with Christ.

Sometimes there seems to be nothing human or "personal" about divine action or inaction. A Christian father is killed in a car accident of dies of a horrible illness, leaving young children without adequate financial support. God's ways often seem inhuman as judged by normal human sensibilities about how a loving heavenly or human father should act. If God's ways and thoughts are inhuman, how can we have a personal relationship with Christ?

"My thoughts your thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9)."

Despite such quibbles, I believe I have a personal relationship with Christ. But I wonder about the best way to biblically defend the need for such a relationship for devout godly Christians like Mike. How would you answer?

marks · Jun 3, 2021

Berserk said:
Mike is a devout evangelical friend with congestive heart failure. He is a lifelong believer, attends church regularly, leads a weekly Bible study, and visits shut-ins. Mike's pastor recently preached a sermon in which he claimed, "If you don't have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ," then you're not saved." Mike took exception to that because (1) he doesn't think he has a discernible personal relationship with Christ and (2) he questions whether that phrase is even biblically sound. For example, Mormons and Muslims challenge skeptics to ask God or Allah whether the Book of Mormon or the Quran is God's Word and promise that the truth of these works will be directly confirmed in their spirits. Evangelicals dismiss such "confirmations" as deluded subjective experience warped by wishful thinking, but then don't ask why Mormons and Muslims might not level the same charge against their own claims of verification from the witness of the Holy Spirit. Mike is well aware of verses like John 14:23, Rev. 3:20, and Colossians 1:19, but thinks such verses express faith conviction and doctrine, but not necessarily a discernibly valid experience of a "personal relationship" with Christ.

Sometimes there seems to be nothing human or "personal" about divine action or inaction. A Christian father is killed in a car accident of dies of a horrible illness, leaving young children without adequate financial support. God's ways often seem inhuman as judged by normal human sensibilities about how a loving heavenly or human father should act. If God's ways and thoughts are inhuman, how can we have a personal relationship with Christ?

"My thoughts your thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9)."

Despite such quibbles, I believe I have a personal relationship with Christ. But I wonder about the best way to biblically defend the need for such a relationship for devout godly Christians like Mike. How would you answer?

I agree with both viewpoints.

Our salvation is from faith, believing God when He tells us His Word, the Gospel. And so whether we have a particular emotional affect or not is not relevant. I think our perceptions can be faulty, and our opinions aren't always right, so again, whether I'm hearing a voice in my mind or not, again, I'll defer to God's promise obtained by faith.

And just the same, Paul says in Romans 8 that His Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am the child of God, and I have to ask, how does that happen? I believe it does, and I believe I know Him, because I know Him inside me, with me. There is Someone Who is not from here that is interacting with me, and in a way that demonstrates real love for me.

In these past few years this has become much greater than previously, but even so, I still believed I knew that inner testimony, even though not as dramatically. So, how dramatic does it need be? I know we are all different, and God is working differently in each of us.

Much love!

Nancy · Jun 3, 2021

Good post Berserk.

"God's ways often seem inhuman as judged by normal human sensibilities about how a loving heavenly or human father should act."

God's ways are inhuman IMHO. He is Spirit, and perfect in ALL His ways.
"Personal relationship" with Christ is actually impossible if you think about it. He is NOT natural, He is SUPERnatural

We are still flesh, and He is Divine still, and always. We cannot compare an earthly father to God The Father as, He always has our best interests at heart...our "natural" fathers acted out of their humanness... God The Father acts ONLY for our best interests. To obey is to Love Him.

"Mike is well aware of verses like John 14:23, Rev. 3:20, and Colossians 1:19, but thinks such verses express faith conviction and doctrine, but not necessarily a discernibly valid experience of a "personal relationship" with Christ."

I totally agree with Mike here, "personal relationship" with Christ is such a buzz phrase anymore that it has become meaningless...as I think it is anyhow.
He does deal with us personally of course, when we...trust. "what is impossible for man..."!

I will be watching this thread bro.

Jane_Doe22 · Jun 3, 2021

Berserk said:
Mike is a devout evangelical friend with congestive heart failure. He is a lifelong believer, attends church regularly, leads a weekly Bible study, and visits shut-ins. Mike's pastor recently preached a sermon in which he claimed, "If you don't have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ," then you're not saved." Mike took exception to that because (1) he doesn't think he has a discernible personal relationship with Christ and (2) he questions whether that phrase is even biblically sound. For example, Mormons and Muslims challenge skeptics to ask God or Allah whether the Book of Mormon or the Quran is God's Word and promise that the truth of these works will be directly confirmed in their spirits. Evangelicals dismiss such "confirmations" as deluded subjective experience warped by wishful thinking, but then don't ask why Mormons and Muslims might not level the same charge against their own claims of verification from the witness of the Holy Spirit. Mike is well aware of verses like John 14:23, Rev. 3:20, and Colossians 1:19, but thinks such verses express faith conviction and doctrine, but not necessarily a discernibly valid experience of a "personal relationship" with Christ.

Sometimes there seems to be nothing human or "personal" about divine action or inaction. A Christian father is killed in a car accident of dies of a horrible illness, leaving young children without adequate financial support. God's ways often seem inhuman as judged by normal human sensibilities about how a loving heavenly or human father should act. If God's ways and thoughts are inhuman, how can we have a personal relationship with Christ?

"My thoughts your thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9)."

Despite such quibbles, I believe I have a personal relationship with Christ. But I wonder about the best way to biblically defend the need for such a relationship for devout godly Christians like Mike. How would you answer?

Such a relationship something you 100% need. And no, that doesn't equate to thinking every little thing is divine action/inaction, cause it's not. But Christ loves each individual, and died for each individual, and we should indeed have a person relationship with the one we call "Lord".

amadeus · Jun 3, 2021

@Berserk @Nancy @marks @Jane_Doe22

God indeed loves everyone of us, but for many it is a very one sided thing. How many people say that they love God in return? How many of those that say that really do?

What kind of a relationship do two people living together with a marriage contract approved by men have if they are not friends and they do not love each other? Consider these words of Jesus:

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:10-14

If we say that will obey His commandments but really make no serious to do them when not putting on a show or people at a church gathering... do we love God? What kind of a relationship is that? If it is a relationship, is it a "good" one?

"But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you." Matt 21:28-31

Both of them were his sons and both of them then had a relationship with their natural father. We again might say that both relationships were "personal" but were both of them good in the manner that Jesus would call them good?

So then again the question, Must a person have a personal relationship with God in order to be saved? Well I would say that the person must be God's friend and must be doing God's will in order to have a good relationship. Does that equal salvation? If it endures to the end, I would say, yes!

Curtis · Jun 4, 2021

Berserk said:
Mike is a devout evangelical friend with congestive heart failure. He is a lifelong believer, attends church regularly, leads a weekly Bible study, and visits shut-ins. Mike's pastor recently preached a sermon in which he claimed, "If you don't have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ," then you're not saved." Mike took exception to that because (1) he doesn't think he has a discernible personal relationship with Christ and (2) he questions whether that phrase is even biblically sound. For example, Mormons and Muslims challenge skeptics to ask God or Allah whether the Book of Mormon or the Quran is God's Word and promise that the truth of these works will be directly confirmed in their spirits. Evangelicals dismiss such "confirmations" as deluded subjective experience warped by wishful thinking, but then don't ask why Mormons and Muslims might not level the same charge against their own claims of verification from the witness of the Holy Spirit. Mike is well aware of verses like John 14:23, Rev. 3:20, and Colossians 1:19, but thinks such verses express faith conviction and doctrine, but not necessarily a discernibly valid experience of a "personal relationship" with Christ.

Sometimes there seems to be nothing human or "personal" about divine action or inaction. A Christian father is killed in a car accident of dies of a horrible illness, leaving young children without adequate financial support. God's ways often seem inhuman as judged by normal human sensibilities about how a loving heavenly or human father should act. If God's ways and thoughts are inhuman, how can we have a personal relationship with Christ?

"My thoughts your thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9)."

Despite such quibbles, I believe I have a personal relationship with Christ. But I wonder about the best way to biblically defend the need for such a relationship for devout godly Christians like Mike. How would you answer?

Is Christianity a personal relationship?

Let’s examine this question.

Does a son have a personal relationship with his dad?

Well, then since those who receive Jesus become children of God, John 1:12, and we ARE the children of God afterward, Romans 8:16, I would say that’s obviously a PERSONAL relationship.

Is it a personal relationship to be married?

Well then, since believers in Christ are married to Jesus, Romans 7:4, and since in marriage the spouses become as one, and we therefore become part of the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, I again would say that’s obviously a PERSONAL relationship.

Is friendship a personal relationship?

Well then, since Jesus says we as believers are His FRIENDS, in John 15:13-14, I’d say that’s a PERSONAL relationship.

Can you imagine a son, spouse, or friend saying, I do not have, nor want, a personal relationship with you?

It’s a very personal relationship.

Brakelite · Jun 4, 2021

KJV John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

KJV 1 John 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Karl Peters · Jun 4, 2021

It is of course sad, that people don't understand God!!

It is of course because they really don't want to, so they don't seek the Lord.

Of course they don't want to be left out, if indeed there is a heaven and next life, so they turn to religion.

Religion, if we don't understand, means leaning on whatever concepts of God we have - and we have some pretty bad concepts of God!!

Christianity should not be a religion, but it too often is. Christianity is supposed to mean seek the Lord our God and listening to Him. That is to say we are supposed to get to know Him!! If you get to know someone, doesn't that mean you are getting some type of personal relationship with them? Of course it does. And since God planned you, created you, He must have some interest in you. Yet I supposed you are not going to really begin to understand until you actually do seek Him and you do get to know Him. And that is the plight of the unbeliever! They don't believe in Him because they never wanted to actually seek Him and get to know Him!

For the believer who did and does actually seek Him, they do find Him, get to know Him, and find out that He is all about a personal relationship with them. He loves them soooo much that He teaches them, instructs them, along with helping them in many ways. Of course if you don' talk to Him you are not going to understand that. You are probably going to say something like "What about that bad things?"

Well - did you learn something from that "bad thing"???

If you get on a bike and fall - don't you learn to be more care?
If you find someone in great pain, don't you learn the desire to help other?
If you see some people hurt or kill other people, don't you learn that there is not only good (God) but evil also (those who don't seek good/God)?
And if you see an accident or disaster that does kill others, did you learn that you need to seek God now?

He puts challenges and other things in our life, but amazingly they often testify to use that we are just so stubborn that we will not seek God.

Yet there was the question about "Does the Bible teach ...:

The answer of course is "NO"!!!

The Bible is not the "Teacher"!! The Lord, He is the teacher. Of course like many teachers He gives His students a book, but if you don't personally know the Lord you might make the mistake of thinking the Bible teaches us. If you do personally have gotten to know Him, it surely must have become clear that He is the Teacher, even the Teacher provide the textbook (the Bible). Yet He set up far more than just a text book to teach us. He created all things. He gave us knowledge. He even gave us the knowledge that He does exist, but some just don't want to believe that. So they don't personally seek to get to know Him. And that is covered in the Bible, isn't it?

Roman 10 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. ... But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),... But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

There is a thing called knowledge which is just knowing facts. Then there is a thing we call knowing a person, which mean we have a personal relationship with them. If you really know Jesus Christ as your Lord, it means you are getting instructions from Him because His word (His voice) is always with you. So you and Him talk. You get a personal relationship with Him - as your Lord, as your Teacher, as your Father, as your Wonderful Counselor, and as the One you tells you that He loves you.

The person who doesn't like someone else explaining this personal relationship with God, does want to believe He is there!!!!! So they have their religion (there understanding of God). But they never actually got His understanding of Himself, did they? To do that you have to listen to Him.

Is 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” declares the LORD,
“Who execute a plan, but not Mine,
And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit,
In order to add sin to sin;

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;

Knowing Him is personal - and He takes the lack of actually getting to know Him very personal!!

Mungo · Jun 4, 2021

Curtis said:
Is Christianity a personal relationship?

Let’s examine this question.

Does a son have a personal relationship with his dad?

Well, then since those who receive Jesus become children of God, John 1:12, and we ARE the children of God afterward, Romans 8:16, I would say that’s obviously a PERSONAL relationship.

Is it a personal relationship to be married?

Well then, since believers in Christ are married to Jesus, Romans 7:4, and since in marriage the spouses become as one, and we therefore become part of the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, I again would say that’s obviously a PERSONAL relationship.

Is friendship a personal relationship?

Well then, since Jesus says we as believers are His FRIENDS, in John 15:13-14, I’d say that’s a PERSONAL relationship.

Can you imagine a son, saying, I do not have, nor want, a personal relationship with you?

It’s a very personal relationship.

Is there a difference by a personal relationship and an intimate relationship?
If we take the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-31) both sons had a personal relationship with their father because they were sons. But they hardly had an intimate relationship. The younger just wanted money off the father and then went off. The elder son was bitter about the ways he perceived the father treated him.
Spouses have a personal relationship because they are married but not all are intimate. Some have such serious disagreements they divorce.

Does having a personal relationship with Jesus really mean having an intimate relationship, not just a personal one.
And is that possible?

TLHKAJ · Jun 4, 2021

Backlit said:
KJV John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

KJV 1 John 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This is where my thinking went... the scriptures use the word "know" which indicates an intimate personal relationship.

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

David H. · Jun 4, 2021

Hi, I Have not read all the responses but will put my two cents in here. Basically, we are his sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. (John 10:14)
That shepherd sheep relationship is the start of our Christian journey....
This Bond is based on hearing, and following.....
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (John 10:27)
Those who are called to be shepherds are told to "feed my sheep", and our love for HIM is fulfilled by feeding the sheep....
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. (John 21:16)

As We grow in our relationship with Him, we see ourselves not as sheep, But as sons and co heirs with Christ. (Romans 8:17-39) This is that blessed assurance that we are His sheep, and we know.... are persuaded that he is able (2 Timothy 1:12) For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I Hope this helps:
God Bless.[/QUOTE]

Brakelite · Jun 5, 2021

In Exodus, the Lord called upon Moses to "build me a tabernacle" that I may dwell with My people. The sanctuary and its services and sacrifices were for the purpose of dealing with the sin problem, that God and His people may dwell together in harmony and healing. This presupposes relationship. The services of the sanctuary and the various feast days all pointed to Christ. After Calvary, the church, and the individuals with the church, became God's temple, His sanctuary, His dwelling place by His Spirit. This is impossible without relationship.

Berserk · Jun 5, 2021

Recent research has demonstrated that 3 out of every 4 Christian young people lose their faith by the time the graduate from college. I have been struck by the number of PKs who lose their faith, especially my 3 cousins whose parents pioneered a Christian work on a Caribbean island. When these 3 cousins reached college age, their parents sent them to evangelical colleges, where they, too, lost their faith. There are many factors that caused this youthful apostasy, but one stands out as the main cause: these young people never experienced a life-changing personal relationship with Christ. Oh, they accepted their status as born again children of God and worshiped God as their Father. But Christ was ultimately just a working construct who gave their life meaning, not a living intimate Friend with whom they had daily fellowship and from whom they experienced guidance and protection at critical moments of their lives.

"Personal relationship" is not a biblical expression and so far no respondent has succeeded in grounding this phrase in Scripture! This issue is far more serious than a semantic quibble. Eternal destiny is at stake!

soul man · Jun 6, 2021

marks said:
I agree with both viewpoints.

Our salvation is from faith, believing God when He tells us His Word, the Gospel. And so whether we have a particular emotional affect or not is not relevant. I think our perceptions can be faulty, and our opinions aren't always right, so again, whether I'm hearing a voice in my mind or not, again, I'll defer to God's promise obtained by faith.

And just the same, Paul says in Romans 8 that His Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am the child of God, and I have to ask, how does that happen? I believe it does, and I believe I know Him, because I know Him inside me, with me. There is Someone Who is not from here that is interacting with me, and in a way that demonstrates real love for me.

In these past few years this has become much greater than previously, but even so, I still believed I knew that inner testimony, even though not as dramatically. So, how dramatic does it need be? I know we are all different, and God is working differently in each of us.

Much love!

Good answer.

marks · Jun 7, 2021

Berserk said:
Despite such quibbles, I believe I have a personal relationship with Christ. But I wonder about the best way to biblically defend the need for such a relationship for devout godly Christians like Mike. How would you answer?

Trust Him.

Much love!

Jay Ross · Jun 7, 2021

marks said:
Trust Him.

Much love!

Who? Mike or God?

Rofl because of your lack of clarity

.

David H. · Jun 7, 2021

Berserk said:
Recent research has demonstrated that 3 out of every 4 Christian young people lose their faith by the time the graduate from college. I have been struck by the number of PKs who lose their faith, especially my 3 cousins whose parents pioneered a Christian work on a Caribbean island. When these 3 cousins reached college age, their parents sent them to evangelical colleges, where they, too, lost their faith. There are many factors that caused this youthful apostasy, but one stands out as the main cause: these young people never experienced a life-changing personal relationship with Christ. Oh, they accepted their status as born again children of God and worshiped God as their Father. But Christ was ultimately just a working construct who gave their life meaning, not a living intimate Friend with whom they had daily fellowship and from whom they experienced guidance and protection at critical moments of their lives.

"Personal relationship" is not a biblical expression and so far no respondent has succeeded in grounding this phrase in Scripture! This issue is far more serious than a semantic quibble. Eternal destiny is at stake!

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:23

You have a choice, to be Known by Him and know Him or not know Him. The Word for Know is the Jewish Idiom for intercourse, as a husband knows a wife. it is a relational word, Not just a mental word...
G1097 - ginōskō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Berserk · Jun 8, 2021

David H. said:
You have a choice, to be Known by Him and know Him or not know Him. The Word for Know is the Jewish Idiom for intercourse, as a husband knows a wife. it is a relational word, Not just a mental word...

Nope! There is a specialized narrow use of the Hebrew for sexual relations between spouses, but no general meaning of this sort when applied to other relations such as the divine-human relationship.

Curtis · Jun 8, 2021

Mungo said:
Is there a difference by a personal relationship and an intimate relationship?
If we take the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-31) both sons had a personal relationship with their father because they were sons. But they hardly had an intimate relationship. The younger just wanted money off the father and then went off. The elder son was bitter about the ways he perceived the father treated him.
Spouses have a personal relationship because they are married but not all are intimate. Some have such serious disagreements they divorce.

Does having a personal relationship with Jesus really mean having an intimate relationship, not just a personal one.
And is that possible?

Those two terms are synonymous IMO.

David H. · Jun 8, 2021

Berserk said:
Nope! There is a specialized narrow use of the Hebrew for sexual relations between spouses, but no general meaning of this sort when applied to other relations such as the divine-human relationship.

Your over thinking the simplicity of the concept. "My sheep hear my voice..." you either Know him intimately or you do not. These are not complicated theological concepts, but ones that are based on childlike faith. By trying to overcomplexify these things you are doing a disservice to the body. Your mind is thinking in carnal terms not in the Spiritual. Spiritually, we are sheep, he is the shepherd, Spiritually we are sons and daughters by adoption, And He is our Father to whom we cry "Abba, Father". He disciplines us as sons and daughters, not as bastards, he Loves us as his sons and daughters and we know his love. These are all "relational" concepts and very scriptural and literal and Spiritually discerned, a concept which you seem to be lacking if you cannot see nor defend this concept. The Problem is with you, not with concept of having a personal relationship with Christ, this whole post in fact is pointing to a deficiency in your own doctrine, a lack of Spiritual discernment.

I say this not to "put you down", but to get you rather to seek that which you are missing. Read James 4:1-10 carefully.
God Bless.

Does the Bible teach the need for an initimate personal relationship with Christ?

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