Who Is The Real God Of The Ot? Part 1

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 28, 2011

Who is the God of the Old Testament?

　

So why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, after learning and understanding who the true God of the Old Testament is, hopefully you will better understand both the Old and New Testaments.

Now when I say the God of the Old Testament, I am assuming that you have been brought up in a church, school or family who taught you that, for the most part, the God of the Old Testament is the one most of us has come to know as God the Father. Well let’s just see if that holds up to the doctrine of the bible.

Now some of what I present my go totally against what you have been taught, but once again, this is not my interpretation, it is the bible’s. I only ask that you pray and ask God for understanding. What ever you do, do not take my word on this. Search the scriptures for yourself and do as Paul says in I Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Now let us allow the bible, and the bible alone, establish Who is the God of the Old Testament.

Has Anyone Ever Seen God the Father?

It has long been said that no man has seen God at any time. And until I started reading the bible for myself, that was an assumption I held for quite a while. Now that I’ve read it, it is no longer an assumption. After reading the book of St. John in the New Testament (NT) and finding the following scriptures I would have to agree:

St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Now the words (NO MAN), (AT ANY TIME) and (NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE….NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.) are very absolute! We can take the inspired word of God to mean just what it says; no man, EVER, has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at any time………So that would mean NEVER!! And let’s not forget who made (2) of those quotes! JESUS CHRIST!!

Did you notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father.

Now let’s search the scriptures for ourselves to find out what the bible has to say about anyone hearing or seeing God….at ANY TIME!

Let’s go to the Old Testament (OT) to see if anyone has either seen or heard the voice of God. Let’s start in Exodus.

Ex. 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Now the elders may not have been able to see all of God, but we can conclude from the above scriptures that they were able to make out what looked to be feet and hands; that would be the SHAPE of God. But what did Jesus say?

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Let’s look further.

Ex. 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

In this next verse the Lord has revealed parts of himself to Moses after Moses requested that his glory be made known to him.

Ex. 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

On this occasion, God did not allow Moses to see His face. But seeing Gods backside would be seeing some sort of shape of God also.

Here are a few scriptures from the book of Numbers:

Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.

8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:

Once again, Moses may not have been able to see all of God but he was able to see God’s back parts and his similitude, or the shape of God. Also, when God spoke, Moses heard Gods words. Hearing the voice of God was not limited to Moses, let’s read;

Deut. 4:12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the mist of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw God, and the whole nation of Israel heard the voice of God at Mount Sinai.

Let’s review:

NT: St. John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

OT: Exod. 24: 10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

NT: St. John 6:46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

OT: Exod.24:11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

NT: St. John 5:37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

OT: Deut. 4:12. And the Lord spake unto you out of the mist of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
　

So what do we have here? In the New Testament, Jesus himself said, NO MAN has seen God the Father AT ANY TIME, and in the Old Testament we find that Moses and at least seventy (70) elders saw and heard the God of Israel. Now what can we conclude from what we have just read above? What we do know, according to the scriptures, is this; if anyone has seen God, it was NOT God the Father. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid. Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth!!!!

Continued in Who is the REAL God of the OT? Part 2

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bud02 · Jan 28, 2011

I'm proud for you Eccl, you posted something worth reading. I'll do you a favor and put part 2 & 3 in this thread.

Who is the REAL God of the OT? Part 2

So Who is the God of the Old Testament?

Now most of us realize that Jesus is God, but did you know that He is also your creator; the God of Old Testament? This will be proved next through the scriptures. Along with that, it will also be proved that the one know as God the Father has NEVER had any contact with mankind….. EVER!!! Now here is a test for you….will you believe man, or what you read in the scriptures? Let’s read Gods inspired word before deciding.

Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ:

Phil 2:5-8.
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, who is God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father, because what other God is there for Him to be equal to. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the only one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of what we just read.

St. John 1:1-4,14
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

After reading St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true. Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God (The Father) because, according to St. John1:1, he was God. We know the Word is Jesus Christ because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” The Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “..became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.

There was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? It was the Word.

St. John 1:3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.

In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:

Col. 1:12-17
12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.

Here are two more scriptures to consider:

Hebrews 1:1-2
1.God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything, which we just read in (3) verses above; Col. l:17, Heb. 1:2 and Eph. 3:9.

　
Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures:

We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God (The Father). (NT) Phil 2:6.
We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.
We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God. He was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.
And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.

At this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase, here it is in a nutshell:

Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is GOD!!

I’m sure this is all new to you, but believe me, once you realize who the true God of the OT is, it should really change the way you view the entire bible.

Let’s read a few scriptures with the understanding of who we are actually dealing with.

Let’s look at the very first verse in the first book of the bible.

Now when we read, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”, according to the facts we just learned, who was it that created the heaven and the earth? That’s right, it was The Word. And we know the Word was God because we just proved it through the scriptures. And again in vs. 3 when it says, “And God said, Let there be light.,.,” once again it was The Word. Can you see where this is going?

Now I know this goes against all that most were taught, but like I said in the beginning, I’m just letting the scriptures interpret themselves. Let’s look further:

1) Gen 1: 27. So God created man in his own image,.,.,. The Word!

2) Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. The Word!

3) Ex 31:12-13.
12. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13. Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doeth sanctify you. The Word!

Lev 11: 1-2.
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beast which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. The Word!

Ex 20 1-4 1. And God spake all of these words, saying, 2. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,.,.,. The Word!

At this point you are probably saying to yourself, “Surely at some point in time, man has had some contact with God the Father!” But the fact is, AT NO TIME, HAS MAN, ANY MAN, HAD ANY CONTACT WITH GOD THE FATHER! And why can I make such a bold statement? Because Jesus Christ said in St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Let’s reason for a moment, Jesus specifically said, no one has heard the voice, nor seen the shape of GOD THE FATHER AT ANYTIME, that means NEVER!

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But how can this be? We just read about people in the OT that saw the shape of God, talked with God, even had a meal with God. Now please hear me out with what I am about to say…….. either Jesus Christ lied when He said no one has ever heard or seen God the Father……or…….it was someone else the people heard and saw. The question is, if it was not God the Father, then who was it they saw?

After reading the scriptures above, the answer is quite obvious…….It was Jesus Christ who was the God of the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ, the creator of everything that was created that the people saw, heard and ate with.

Now if Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, which He is, that can only mean one thing: There is Jesus Christ, the only God man has ever known and ever had any contact with, and then there is the One that became known as God the Father, the “...invisible God…”, the one whose voice no man has ever heard or shape no man has ever seen. These two… that’s right (2), are distinct, separate beings, and they ALONE make up the Godhead,…. but that is another lesson. For now, let’s read and learn more about Jesus Christ, The God of the Old Testament!

More Proof

Now I’m not sure how many scriptures it will take to convince you that the person we’ve come to know as Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament, but here are a few more verses to help you understand.

Let’s go back to the (OT) and start in Exodus. Here the Lord has just led the children of Israel out of Egypt and was leading them into the wilderness.

Ex 13: 21-22. 21. And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

22. He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Now let’s go to the (NT) and find what Paul had to say about the journey that their fathers took out of the land of Egypt. Let’s start in I Corinthians.

Cor 10; 1-4. 1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So what the Apostle Paul is saying here is that the same God that followed the children of Israel around in a pillar of a cloud by day and a pillar of fire at night was Christ.

Let’s search some more.

Let’s go back to Exodus (OT) and examine a conversation Moses was having with God.

Here Moses is asking that the Lord take his name out of the Book of Life.

Ex 32: 31-33 31. And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people Have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou has written.

33. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Now let’s go to the (NT) in the book of Revelation and see who will be responsible for blotting names out of the Book of Life.

Rev 3:5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before
his angels.

Here we find the One Moses spoke with in the Old Testament, asking to blot his name out of the book of life, is the same One who will be blotting out names on judgment day. And who will be responsible for blotting out names? Jesus Christ!

Let’s find more proof about our Lord, Jesus Christ, as the God of the Old Testament.

In this next passage, Abraham is asking the Lord to spare the city of Sodom.

Gen 18:24-25. 24. Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25. That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Now let’s find out who it is that will judge the world and who gave him that authority. Let us go to St. John (NT) and read what Jesus has to say on the matter.

St. John 5:22,26-27. 22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son;

26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given unto the Son to have life in himself. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Did you read who will judge man? It will NOT be God the Father! It will be Jesus Christ. It will be God the Father who gives Him the authority to execute judgment. So it appears that both Moses and Abraham knew who it was they were speaking with. In fact, Jesus goes on to say;

St. John 8: 56-58, 56. “ Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57. “……….. Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58. Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Conclusion

Now we know that God is God and with Him nothing is impossible….almost. (I’ll explain that in a moment) He can be or do anything….again…almost. With that being said, regardless of what we may want to believe, we must go with sound doctrine found in the holy scriptures…we have no choice;

“All scriptures is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness:”, II Tim 3:16.

Let’s rightly divide the word of God , pray for understanding and just THINK about a few more things with the knowledge we have just found in the scriptures.

Is it possible for God the Father to be both the person praying and the one being prayed to on the night of Jesus’ death? Matt.26:39-44

Could God the Father be the person on BOTH the left and right side of himself waiting for His enemies to become His footstool? Psm.110:1

How can God NOT know when He shall return? Mark 13:32

Some may try to answer these questions with, “God is God and He can do anything.”, which is true…..like I said above….almost; God can do anything……but HE CAN NOT LIE!!!! And that is why, even the thought, of entertaining such questions like the ones above is irrelevant……because GOD CAN NOT LIE!!!!!! And the scriptures below are the words of God.

When Jesus was praying the night before His death, and asking (3) times that this cup be passed from Him, He was not praying to Himself, He was praying to God the Father.

When God the Father said Jesus would sit on His right side until He made His enemies His footstool, the scriptures did not lie….Jesus is, at this very moment, at the right hand of God the Father.

When Jesus said He did not know the day nor the hour of His return and that ONLY God the Father knows what time it will happen, then ONLY God the Father KNOWS!

SO…..when Jesus said NO ONE has seen or heard God the Father at anytime, we must take Him for His word, not one person has ever seen or heard God the Father at anytime…..EVER!!!! And how is this possible…..? Well…we just proved it in this lesson. Jesus was and is the ONLY God man has ever interacted with.

Before I end this lesson I have one other place for you to read. This is a, “Just in case you need more proof.”, as far as Jesus Christ being the God of the Old Testament.

In the book of Zechariah, chapter 12, we have God himself, speaking through the mouth of the prophet Zechariah, about a future event. Now remember, the book of Zechariah is in the OLD TESTAMENT, so that would mean the person speaking through Zachariah is the God of the OLD TESTAMNET. Let’s see how He describes events, concerning Himself, that will take place in the future:

Zech 12 vs. 10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first born.

So here we have the God of the Old Testament, talking about being pierced in the future, being mourned over, “….as one mourneth for his only son…”. Now I ask you, who was it that was pierced and was mourned for as an only son and the first born? Yes….that person was Jesus Christ. And He is the same person that made this statement in the book of Zechariah. Jesus Christ……The God of the Old Testament!!!!!

There are so many other examples throughout the Bible that reveal this truth, but my time and space is limited. If nothing else I hope this lesson has motivated you to at least question the things I’ve presented and search for the truth.

I hope that after reading your Bible and searching the scriptures for the truth, you too will understand and know that Jesus Christ is the ONLY God man has ever known and He is “The God of the Old Testament.”

Job one · Mar 22, 2011

Dear Bud02,

A very interesting series of posts. Sounds like you have been doing your homework! Very well written.

God bless,

veteran · Mar 23, 2011

We have this Witness also...

John 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?' "
(KJV)

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
(KJV)

Job one · Mar 25, 2011

Hey guys,

I fully agree and understand that Jesus Christ is the creator of all things and it is He who gave the Law unto Moses.

Obviously the JW's totally disagree with us. That is their problem and they have to ignore a lot of scripture to support their claims.

lawrance · Mar 30, 2011

Job one said:
Hey guys,

I fully agree and understand that Jesus Christ is the creator of all things and it is He who gave the Law unto Moses.

Obviously the JW's totally disagree with us. That is their problem and they have to ignore a lot of scripture to support their claims.

The God of Israel .
The people of Israel are they that are worthy of serving the God of Israel the Prophets ect. and that has nothing to do with the tribe or people who live in Israel they do and can worship idols so they are not of Israel but just the Jewish persons.
Christians have inherited the God of Israel & Jesus Christ is his only son
The son's name is Emanuel God with us, so he came down in a form of a man for our salvation of all people not animals ect, only humans.
Now Jesus said i only do the work of the Father who sent me.
He is not the Father because he said he does not know when the end is only the father does.
Now as to us people who are in Christ that is, only Jesus can lead us to know of the true God, the Father.
But that does not take away any thing from Jesus Christ at all because Jesus is the Spirit of the Father and just like when we are in the Spirit of our lord and saviour he is in us and we in him and all three are united in one.
Yes that's the trinity and we are taking part in it.

Rach1370 · Mar 31, 2011

Hey Ecc, and bud02 (are either of you still on this board??)

You had my interest and most of my agreement up until the part where you deny that the Holy Spirit is also a part of the Godhead.
I agree that Jesus showed up all over the place in the OT, but using that to conclude that the Holy Spirit is not included, when scripture plainly shows that He is.
Firstly, the HS is referred to as a 'He' and is shown to have attributes that are both God, and personal. For example:

Divine Attributes of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is eternal Heb. 9:14 The Holy Spirit is omnipresent Ps. 139:7–10 The Holy Spirit is omniscient 1 Cor. 2:10–11 The Holy Spirit is omnipotent Luke 1:35–37 The Holy Spirit is holy Rom. 1:4

Personal Actions of the Holy Spirit

The Spirit comforts John 12:26; 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7 The Spirit teaches John 14:26; 1 Cor. 2:13 The Spirit speaks Acts 8:29; 13:2 The Spirit makes decisions Acts 15:28 The Spirit grieves over sin Eph. 4:30 The Spirit overrules human actions Acts 16:6–7 The Spirit searches the deep things of God and knows the thoughts of God 1 Cor. 2:10–11 The Spirit determines the distribution of spiritual gifts 1 Cor. 12:11 The Spirit interprets and brings human prayer before the throne of the Father Rom. 8:26–27 The Spirit assures believers of their adoption Rom. 8:16 The Spirit bears witness to and glorifies Christ John 15:26; 16:14

And another thing...while I maybe agree that God the Father hasn't had as much to do with the direct involvement of earth as much as Jesus, I don't feel that anyone can say that with certainty. Here's one verse that makes me think otherwise...

[16] And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
(Matthew 3:16-17 ESV)

Why would Jesus project His own voice to make it sound like it was coming from heaven, and approving of Himself?? This voice truly was the Father's voice, and those there would have heard it...

I would submit that if indeed there seems to be inconsistancy within scripture, then no doubt it lies with faulty human understanding, not with God lying,
Clearly Jesus did not lie, but to say that God the Father has had absolutely no hand in our History is just silly. It was His will that gave us life, and even if Jesus was the hand that carried out the will, we cannot portray God as an uncaring, uninvolved deity. He's not.

aspen · Mar 31, 2011

Rach said:
Hey Ecc, and bud02 (are either of you still on this board??)

You had my interest and most of my agreement up until the part where you deny that the Holy Spirit is also a part of the Godhead.
I agree that Jesus showed up all over the place in the OT, but using that to conclude that the Holy Spirit is not included, when scripture plainly shows that He is.
Firstly, the HS is referred to as a 'He' and is shown to have attributes that are both God, and personal. For example:

Divine Attributes of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is eternal Heb. 9:14 The Holy Spirit is omnipresent Ps. 139:7–10 The Holy Spirit is omniscient 1 Cor. 2:10–11 The Holy Spirit is omnipotent Luke 1:35–37 The Holy Spirit is holy Rom. 1:4

Personal Actions of the Holy Spirit

The Spirit comforts John 12:26; 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7 The Spirit teaches John 14:26; 1 Cor. 2:13 The Spirit speaks Acts 8:29; 13:2 The Spirit makes decisions Acts 15:28 The Spirit grieves over sin Eph. 4:30 The Spirit overrules human actions Acts 16:6–7 The Spirit searches the deep things of God and knows the thoughts of God 1 Cor. 2:10–11 The Spirit determines the distribution of spiritual gifts 1 Cor. 12:11 The Spirit interprets and brings human prayer before the throne of the Father Rom. 8:26–27 The Spirit assures believers of their adoption Rom. 8:16 The Spirit bears witness to and glorifies Christ John 15:26; 16:14

And another thing...while I maybe agree that God the Father hasn't had as much to do with the direct involvement of earth as much as Jesus, I don't feel that anyone can say that with certainty. Here's one verse that makes me think otherwise...

[16] And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
(Matthew 3:16-17 ESV)

Why would Jesus project His own voice to make it sound like it was coming from heaven, and approving of Himself?? This voice truly was the Father's voice, and those there would have heard it...

I would submit that if indeed there seems to be inconsistancy within scripture, then no doubt it lies with faulty human understanding, not with God lying,
Clearly Jesus did not lie, but to say that God the Father has had absolutely no hand in our History is just silly. It was His will that gave us life, and even if Jesus was the hand that carried out the will, we cannot portray God as an uncaring, uninvolved deity. He's not.

Your response was so good and thorough - I copied it for my own records - hope that is ok!

Thanks!

Rach1370 · Mar 31, 2011

aspen said:
Your response was so good and thorough - I copied it for my own records - hope that is ok!

Thanks!

No! It's all mine! Kidding...
I got those lists out of my Bible...handy huh?

aspen · Mar 31, 2011

Rach said:
No! It's all mine! Kidding...
I got those lists out of my Bible...handy huh?

hmm...heard of it.....

KingJ · Apr 1, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
So what do we have here? In the New Testament, Jesus himself said, NO MAN has seen God the Father AT ANY TIME, and in the Old Testament we find that Moses and at least seventy (70) elders saw and heard the God of Israel. Now what can we conclude from what we have just read above? What we do know, according to the scriptures, is this; if anyone has seen God, it was NOT God the Father. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid. Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth!!!!

Hello

I agree it is well written. I Felt like I was reading a book.

I think the contradiction above has a simple answer....God revealed a part of Himself to Moses and the Jews. God reveals a part of Himself to us through Jesus (His heart)
and Jesus is talking about literally seeing God in His fullness.....but whichever...who cares?

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