Two Wills?

TexUs said:

Maybe try for a different topic on here for a change


Does God have two different wills?


War against the lamb is sin. Sin is something God doesn't like, and yet:
Revelation17:16-17; “The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. Theywill bring her ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn herwith fire. For God has put into their hearts to accomplish his purpose byagreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God’s words arefulfilled.”


The death of Christ wasn't something God would have liked to have happened and yet:
Isaiah 53:4; “Stricken byGod, smitten by him, and afflicted... It was the Lord’s will tocrush him, and cause him to suffer.”


God wouldn't like Christ to be beaten and flogged and yet:
Acts 4:27-28; “[Thepeople] conspired against your holy servant Jesus, whom you appointed. They didwhat your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.”
Acts 2:23; “This man washanded over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge.”






Hopefully this will generate some easier discussion. Does God have two wills?

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HI TexUs,

There's no tension here when one understands these passages under the Classic view of the atonement. It is whne one tries to reconcile these paassages under the Penal model that there is tentsion. Firstly, consider Isaiah 53 which you quoted. In the Masoretic text this passage seems to indicate that God chose to hurt Christ. However, the Masoretic text that is used in modern English Bibles is relativel late, the middle ages. Jesus and the apostles used to the Septuagint. It is a Greek translation madde by the Jew approximately 200 years before Christ was born, It reads differently than the Masoretic. Notice in verse 4 there is no menton of God bruising Christ. Here is Isaiah 53 from the Septuagint.

Chapter 53
53:1 O Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom
has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 We brought a
report as of a child before him; he is as a root in a thirsty
land: he has no form nor comeliness; and we saw him, but
he had no form nor beauty. 3 But his form was ignoble, and
inferior to that of the children of men; he was a man in
suffering, and acquainted with the bearing of sickness, for
his face is turned from us: he was dishonoured, and not
esteemed. 4 He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet we
accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in
affliction. 5 But he was wounded on account of our sins,
and was bruised because of our iniquities: the
chastisement of our peace was upon him; and by his
bruises we were healed. 6 All we as sheep have gone
astray; every one has gone astray in his way; and the Lord
gave him up for our sins.
7 And he, because of his affliction, opens not his mouth:
he was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb
before the shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. 8
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: who shall
declare his generation? for his life is taken away from the
earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to
death. 9 And I will give the wicked for his burial, and the
rich for his death; for he practised no iniquity, nor craft
with his mouth. 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him
from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul
shall see a long-lived seed: 11 the Lord also is pleased to
take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light,
and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one
who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. 12
Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the
spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to
death: and he was numbered among the transgressors;
and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because
of their iniquities.

Scripture tells us that Christ gave himself as an offering to God in Hebrews. Under the Classic view of the Atonement, mankind was kidnapped and needed to be ransomed. Christ gave himself as ransom for mankind, having offered himself to God. The payment was death, because man was under the power of Satan, he would die unless he was redeemed. Christ was that payment. God simply laid out the plan, how He would allow Christ to be the ransom, pay for the redemption and how He would then raise Christ from the dead. So, when Peter says that God had foreordained the events, we don't need to understand that as God ordaining Christ's death as many do. It simply means that God ordained or put into action the events that would lead toe the redemption of man, however, Christ was a willing participant.

I don't know what translation you posted from but it shows hte bias that ends up in translations. They are made according to how one understands the Scriptures.

TexUs said:

Paul may have quoted from the Septuagint, however... Most of Christ's "on foot" ministry was done to the Jews... There's no indication he ever used Greek but plenty, growing up as a Jew, he had the Hebrew texts memorized and quoted to them in their own language. Regardless...
As you state the Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Hebrew text.
The Masoretic text is simply... The best Hebrew text we have.

Now, what do you suppose would generally maintain the most accuracy?
Hebrew- Greek- Hebrew
or
Hebrew

????

I realize your argument but honestly if we can't have faith in what we've got written- we're in trouble. We need to have faith that what we've got is the best representation around.
Additionally in researching Isaiah 53, I find the Great Isaiah Scroll (Hebrew, containing much of Isaiah- I'm sure you heard of it) matches the Masoretic text- even being 1,000 years removed from each other. The Septuagint is the odd man out. Translators know this- that's why they didn't use the one minority translation.

Regardless, again, we need to have faith in what we've got. I've seen you use this argument before. One can't run to a different text simply because you don't like what's there.

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My friend, do the research, the text you are using is from approximately 900 to 1000 years "After" Christ. The Septuagint is approximately 200 years "Before" Christ. it was translated by the Jews and was the Jewish Scriptures. The reason the Jews rejected it was because the Christians were using it to prove that Jesus was the Christ. It is not a minority translation, it was "The" Bible in the days to Jesus and the apostles, and yes they did quote from it. Jesus may have used Hebrew in Jerusalem, but at that time it was not widely spoken, Greek was.

Concerning the Isaiah scroll, consider where today's Masoretic text differs from the Septuagint and see which one the Isaiah Scroll lines up with.

Regarding the accuracy of the translation. The Septuagint was not translated back into Hebrew as you suggested above. The Septuagint was also translated from a different text family than the Masoretic text we have today. However, one only needs to look at the Scriptures to see that the Masoretic text is different than the what Jesus and the apostles used. Look at some of the quotes in the NT and compare them in the OT. You will many differ, not all because in many places the Septuagint and the Masoretic text read alike, but where they differ Jesus and the apostles used the Septuagint. I am including a few verses for consideration there are many more than this.

Below are several New Testament quotes, I have given the corresponding verses in the Old Testament, from both the Masoretic text which is the text used in almost all of the current English Bibles, and the Septuagint or the LXX, which is the Greek text used in the time of Christ. Notice how the Masoretic text does not follow the New Testament quotes as the Septuagint does. This is just a few, there are a lot more.

New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43
Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
Where are the words, "And let all the angels of God worship him"?
Septuagint
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
New Testament
Hebrews 10:5 ( KJV ) 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Psalm 40:6
Masoretic text
Psalms 40:6 ( KJV ) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Where are the words, " but a body hast thou prepared me:"? This is an important part to leave out since it speaks of the incarnation of Christ.
Septuagint
Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.
New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31

Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) 31Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
New Testament
Matthew 3:3 ( KJV ) 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Here Mtthew quotes Isaiah 40:3

Masoretic text
Isaiah 40:3 ( KJV ) 3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Septuagint
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.
New Testament
James 4:6 ( KJV ) 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Here James quotes Proverbs 3:34

Masoretic text
Proverbs 3:34 ( KJV ) 34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
Septuagint
Proveerbs 3:34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble.

New Testament
Matthew 15:7-9 ( KJV ) 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Here Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13

Masoretic text
Isaiah 29:13 ( KJV ) 13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Septuagint,
Isaiah 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.

New Testament
Matthew 21:16 ( KJV ) 16And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Masoretic text
Psalms 8:2 ( KJV ) 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Septuagint,
Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.

TexUs said:

Yes, but the Isaiah scroll, which agrees with it, dates 200-300 years "Before" Christ as well.

I'd rather take straight Hebrew sources that agree with each other than a singular Hebrew-Greek-Hebrew source that goes against them.

There are only 17 letter differences between the Isaiah Scroll an the Masoretic text. 10 are spelling differences. 4 are style changes (conjunctions). The remaining three are from the word "light" found in verse 11.
The only poor translation is your crippled Septuagint here, no wonder why nobody relied on it for this chapter.

Sep: He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet we accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction.
IS: Surely He has borne our sicknesses and our pains he carried; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted.
ESV: Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

"One of these is not like the other, one of these just doesn't belong"

I'm really not going to argue further with you.

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Can you provide a link to the text of the Isaiah Scroll so we can check for ourselves? As I have already shown, it is quite clear that Jesus and the apostles quoted from the Septuagint. If the Septuagint was inferior I hardly think inspired Scripture would be quoted from it. The Masoretic text simply does not match the Apostles quotes in many places. That leaves you with a dilemma, If the the Masoretic text is correct, then the apostles were wrong. If the Apostles were correct, then the Masoretic text is wrong. Which do you suppose it is?

TexUs said:

Maybe try for a different topic on here for a change


Does God have two different wills?


War against the lamb is sin. Sin is something God doesn't like, and yet:
Revelation17:16-17; “The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. Theywill bring her ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn herwith fire. For God has put into their hearts to accomplish his purpose byagreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God’s words arefulfilled.”


The death of Christ wasn't something God would have liked to have happened and yet:
Isaiah 53:4; “Stricken byGod, smitten by him, and afflicted... It was the Lord’s will tocrush him, and cause him to suffer.”


God wouldn't like Christ to be beaten and flogged and yet:
Acts 4:27-28; “[Thepeople] conspired against your holy servant Jesus, whom you appointed. They didwhat your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.”
Acts 2:23; “This man washanded over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge.”






Hopefully this will generate some easier discussion. Does God have two wills?

Click to expand...

You continually use the phrase "God doesn't like" as though His mommy were making Him swallow an unsavory medicine or that He was forced by some external process to do something He'd rather not.

There is no Biblical context or principle to assume that God is forced or manipulated by anything other than His own sovereign will.

If there were, He wouldn't be God and the discussion would devolve into a debate about a minor character in the universe.