Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #2

Gregory · Jun 10, 2021

theefaith said:
but he is God
She is his mother
So she is mother of God
A Mother is mother of the person

scripture says mother of God Lk 1:43

what the things plural referred to in Lk 1:49?

Luke 1:43 says Lord, not God. But Mary in verse 47 calls him God my Savior. Jesus is the God of this world. He created it, and manages it and saved it. There is no doubt Jesus is God.

It is God the Father that gave Jesus all power and authority to create and manage and save the earth. Jesus is God, but just not God the Father, who is in heaven, and rarely come to earth, for he gave all power over the earth to His Son Jesus. God the Father has only come to earth a few times to confirm that Jesus is His Son, and to let us all know that He is pleased with His Son Jesus.

That is why the OT says there is only 1 God, because God the Father stays in the background and allows Jesus His Son to manage everything that has to do with the earth. IOW Jesus and God and the Holy Ghost are not 3 in 1.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 10, 2021

Gregory said:
Ronald Nolette says:

Sorry, verse 21 says that the we can all be one with God and Jesus.
John 17:20-22
King James Version
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Actually, this scripture starts to undo Trinitarian Doctrine. How can we be in the Trinity with God and Jesus? The Trinity would no longer be 3 persons, it would be billions of persons, being one with God and Jesus, as God and Jesus are one.

So what other way could we be one with God and Jesus? By having the same mind and will and actions. Billions of Christians separate and distinct acting together as one. Which defines the Trinity, God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost separate and distinct, but acting together as one.

When Jesus prays, he says, "my Father who is in heaven...". Why would Jesus say this if they were 3 in one. Jesus would have prayed, "my Father who is in me, or who is with me here on earth....". Jesus separate and distinct person on earth. Father, separate and distinct person in heaven.
Which now makes sense since we know they are one in mind, will, and action, but not 3 in one.

I believe that Elohim is the name for God the Father, not Jesus. 2 of Jesus's names in the OT are Yahweh Elohim, and Jehovah.
Look at Genesis 1 for God (English translation for the Hebrew name of Elohim), and see Genesis 2 for "the Lord God" (English translation for the Hebrew name Yahweh Elohim). 2 separate and distinct Persons in Genesis 1 and 2, God the Father and Jesus his Son).

This has been a debate since early Christianity, and when we meet Jesus, it will only take about 10 seconds to know the whole truth. So just continue to know that God exists and his Son Jesus Christ saved the world from sin and death. That is the crucial testimony. Thanks for the discussion.

Love your last line, you plunk down your opinion, then say oh well.

Elohim is not a name but a title- (gods)
Yahweh and Jehovah are just two English variants of the pronouncement God the Father gave to Moses. I have become convinced it is not actually HIs name as much as God simply describing who He is: "I am who I am".

I have no problem with Jesus calling His Father His God, for I clearly see in Scripture a hierarchy in the godhead as per position, but also Jesus shares the exact same divinity with His Father and the Holy Spirit. so they are not three unique gods, but One God (essence) manifested in three "persons".

Gregory said:
So X = God the Father, Y = Jesus
In the beginning there is X. Y also was in the beginning with X. Y is also = to X. But it does not mean that Y is X. It only means that Y is = to X. X stands alone, and Y stands alone, separate and distinct, but X and Y are equal to each other. If Y is called God, X has to be another God.

But how can that be, doesn't the OT say that there is one LORD? Yes. X gave Y all power and authority to create the earth and to manage it. Y is the only God we have to do with on this earth. X stays in heaven to manage the rest of the universe, and rarely appears on earth, and only to confirm that Jesus is His Son, and that He is pleased with His Son Jesus (as at Jesus's baptism). That's why when Y on earth prays to X, he lets us know where X is, in heaven. IOW they are not 3 in 1.

I never saide Jesus was His Father, they share the same "theotes" as opposed to being separate gods, but they are distinct in person. X does not have to be another god- just another manifestation of God. Remember the term god, not only represents a person (s) but also represents a nature! So there are three separate distinct "persons" who are the one God.

I cannot say if I agree with your term 3 in 1 for I am not sure how you define it. There are numerous ways people define that.

Mungo · Jun 10, 2021

Gregory said:
Luke 1:43 says Lord, not God. But Mary in verse 47 calls him God my Savior. Jesus is the God of this world. He created it, and manages it and saved it. There is no doubt Jesus is God.

It is God the Father that gave Jesus all power and authority to create and manage and save the earth. Jesus is God, but just not God the Father, who is in heaven, and rarely come to earth, for he gave all power over the earth to His Son Jesus. God the Father has only come to earth a few times to confirm that Jesus is His Son, and to let us all know that He is pleased with His Son Jesus.

That is why the OT says there is only 1 God, because God the Father stays in the background and allows Jesus His Son to manage everything that has to do with the earth. IOW Jesus and God and the Holy Ghost are not 3 in 1.

You are claiming that there are two God (or three Gods?)s. That is not true.
The OT says there is only one God because there is only one God.

theefaith · Jun 10, 2021

Gregory said:
Ronald Nolette says:

Sorry, verse 21 says that the we can all be one with God and Jesus.
John 17:20-22
King James Version
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Actually, this scripture starts to undo Trinitarian Doctrine. How can we be in the Trinity with God and Jesus? The Trinity would no longer be 3 persons, it would be billions of persons, being one with God and Jesus, as God and Jesus are one.

So what other way could we be one with God and Jesus? By having the same mind and will and actions. Billions of Christians separate and distinct acting together as one. Which defines the Trinity, God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost separate and distinct, but acting together as one.

When Jesus prays, he says, "my Father who is in heaven...". Why would Jesus say this if they were 3 in one. Jesus would have prayed, "my Father who is in me, or who is with me here on earth....". Jesus separate and distinct person on earth. Father, separate and distinct person in heaven.
Which now makes sense since we know they are one in mind, will, and action, but not 3 in one.

I believe that Elohim is the name for God the Father, not Jesus. 2 of Jesus's names in the OT are Yahweh Elohim, and Jehovah.
Look at Genesis 1 for God (English translation for the Hebrew name of Elohim), and see Genesis 2 for "the Lord God" (English translation for the Hebrew name Yahweh Elohim). 2 separate and distinct Persons in Genesis 1 and 2, God the Father and Jesus his Son).

This has been a debate since early Christianity, and when we meet Jesus, it will only take about 10 seconds to know the whole truth. So just continue to know that God exists and his Son Jesus Christ saved the world from sin and death. That is the crucial testimony. Thanks for the discussion.

is baptism required?

Ronald Nolette · Jun 10, 2021

Mungo said:
You are claiming that there are two God (or three Gods?)s. That is not true.
The OT says there is only one God because there is only one God.

Yes there is only one God- and He is manifested in three distinct "persons".

The "one" found in the "shma" can be described by this example.

A boat has a crew of fifty. there is only one crew, but manifested in 50 members. The one in the shema is not "yachid" which is the cardinal or prime number one, but "echad" which is the ordinal one which can be used to desscribe multiple items making up "one " thing.

theefaith · Jun 10, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
No she is not- HIs divinity was from eternity, so she had no role in the "genetics" of His divinity. He was already god before He entered the womb to take on human form.

Don't have a clue what the great things were. Anyone who thinks they do is only kidding themselves other than salvation, grace and mercy.

the great things can only be the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus

not mother or source of the divine nature but the mother of Christ
His person who is God Lk 1:43

why is she blessed?

theefaith · Jun 10, 2021

Gregory said:
Luke 1:43 says Lord, not God. But Mary in verse 47 calls him God my Savior. Jesus is the God of this world. He created it, and manages it and saved it. There is no doubt Jesus is God.

It is God the Father that gave Jesus all power and authority to create and manage and save the earth. Jesus is God, but just not God the Father, who is in heaven, and rarely come to earth, for he gave all power over the earth to His Son Jesus. God the Father has only come to earth a few times to confirm that Jesus is His Son, and to let us all know that He is pleased with His Son Jesus.

That is why the OT says there is only 1 God, because God the Father stays in the background and allows Jesus His Son to manage everything that has to do with the earth. IOW Jesus and God and the Holy Ghost are not 3 in 1.

Lord and God are the same
3 persons one nature

just like Tom dick and Harry
Are there distinct and unique persons with one human nature

Ronald Nolette · Jun 10, 2021

theefaith said:
the great things can only be the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus

not mother or source of the divine nature but the mother of Christ
His person who is God Lk 1:43

why is she blessed?

Well as Jesus and not Mary was Immaculately conceived that isd moot. If you can show from gods word and not you drawing your own conclusions that Mary was conceived without a sin nature, then I will go back to that belief I jettisoned about 45 years ago.

theefaith · Jun 10, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Well as Jesus and not Mary was Immaculately conceived that isd moot. If you can show from gods word and not you drawing your own conclusions that Mary was conceived without a sin nature, then I will go back to that belief I jettisoned about 45 years ago.

Sorry but the immaculate conception is Mary being conceived in her mothers womb, not Jesus, most people make that mistake

Jesus conception by the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb is called the miraculous conception.

Ronald Nolette said:
Well as Jesus and not Mary was Immaculately conceived that isd moot. If you can show from gods word and not you drawing your own conclusions that Mary was conceived without a sin nature, then I will go back to that belief I jettisoned about 45 years ago.

Ineffabilis Deus
The Immaculate Conception
Pope BI. Pius IX - 1854

“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
(Enmities total war, none of satan’s works found in Her immaculate purity)

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed) rev 12:1 clothed with the sun
Immaculate purity!

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
(Immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

Mungo · Jun 10, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Yes there is only one God- and He is manifested in three distinct "persons".

The "one" found in the "shma" can be described by this example.

A boat has a crew of fifty. there is only one crew, but manifested in 50 members. The one in the shema is not "yachid" which is the cardinal or prime number one, but "echad" which is the ordinal one which can be used to desscribe multiple items making up "one " thing.

A boat crew of 50 has 50 distinct beings.
God is not 3 distinct beings.
Your analogy does not work.

Gregory · Jun 10, 2021

theefaith said:
Lord and God are the same
3 persons one nature

just like Tom dick and Harry
Are there distinct and unique persons with one human nature

Tom, Dick, and Harry have one nature, (human) but are 3 distinct persons, who can be in 3 different places at exactly the same time. So the Lord and God have one nature, (Divine), but are 2 distinct persons and can be in 2 different places at exactly the same time. This is what I believe, so we believe alike. Thank you.

Gregory · Jun 10, 2021

theefaith said:
is baptism required?

Of course.

Gregory · Jun 10, 2021

Mungo said:
You are claiming that there are two God (or three Gods?)s. That is not true.
The OT says there is only one God because there is only one God.

There is more than 1 God. God the Father proclaims He is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Ghost is God. 3 separate and distinct persons, otherwise they could not be in more than 1 place at a time, as they were at the baptism of Christ.

theefaith · Jun 10, 2021

Mungo said:
A boat crew of 50 has 50 distinct beings.
God is not 3 distinct beings.
Your analogy does not work.

Gregory said:
Tom, Dick, and Harry have one nature, (human) but are 3 distinct persons, who can be in 3 different places at exactly the same time. So the Lord and God have one nature, (Divine), but are 2 distinct persons and can be in 2 different places at exactly the same time. This is what I believe, so we believe alike. Thank you.

What about the holy spirit?

Gregory · Jun 10, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Love your last line, you plunk down your opinion, then say oh well.

Elohim is not a name but a title- (gods)

What does this title declare?

Yahweh and Jehovah are just two English variants of the pronouncement God the Father gave to Moses. I have become convinced it is not actually HIs name as much as God simply describing who He is: "I am who I am".

I believe that Yahweh and Jehovah are the same God.

I have no problem with Jesus calling His Father His God, for I clearly see in Scripture a hierarchy in the godhead as per position, but also Jesus shares the exact same divinity with His Father and the Holy Spirit. so they are not three unique gods, but One God (essence) manifested in three "persons".

So God the Father, and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost share the same divinity, so they are one in that way. But can their 3 distinct persons be in 3 different locations at the exact same time, like at the baptism of Christ?

X does not have to be another god- just another manifestation of God.

You would have to give me an example of "another manifestation of God".

I cannot say if I agree with your term 3 in 1 for I am not sure how you define it. There are numerous ways people define that.

[/QUOTE]
I define it as 3 distinct persons in 1 God.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 11, 2021

theefaith said:
Sorry but the immaculate conception is Mary being conceived in her mothers womb, not Jesus, most people make that mistake

Jesus conception by the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb is called the miraculous conception.

Not according to Gods word. Catholic word? sure, but Gods Word Trumps any denominations Word anyday.

theefaith said:
Ineffabilis Deus
The Immaculate Conception
Pope BI. Pius IX - 1854

This is not Scripture and you should know that!

theefaith said:
Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed) rev 12:1 clothed with the sun
Immaculate purity!

Doesn't mean she had no sin nature, you should know that!

REv. 12:1 is Israel-- see Josephs dream in Genesis. Read the rest of the chapter! Notrhing of it fits Mary.

theefaith said:
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

That is your conclusion trhat is not supported by Scripture but implied by Romanism.

theefaith said:
Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

That is not what that means and you should know that!

theefaith said:
Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

Twisitng Scripture is dangerous for Rome and for those who wish to believe her allegorical reinterpretations of Gods Word.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 11, 2021

Mungo said:
A boat crew of 50 has 50 distinct beings.
God is not 3 distinct beings.
Your analogy does not work.

But He is!

God is Father
God is son
God is holy spirit.

The Father is not the son nor the spirit
The son is not the Father nor the spirit.
The spirit is not the Father nor the Son.

And all three are called God in Gods Word!

Three distince "entities/persons" or whatever you wish to call it, who are ONE god!

Ronald Nolette · Jun 11, 2021

Gregory said:
So God the Father, and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost share the same divinity, so they are one in that way. But can their 3 distinct persons be in 3 different locations at the exact same time, like at the baptism of Christ?

Well you answered your own question! Yes
God the Father spoke from heaven
God the Son came out of the water
god the spirit descended on Jesus LIKE a dove

All three persons of the Godhead- One but separate

Gregory said:
What does this title declare?

Elohim
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Elohim in Hebrew script. The letters are, right-to-left: aleph-lamed-he-yud-mem.
In the Hebrew Bible, elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים‎ [(ʔ)eloˈ(h)im]) (Biblical Hebrew: ‎ [ʔiloːˈhiːm]) usually refers to a single deity,[1][2][3][4] particularly (but not always) the God of Israel.[1][2][3][4][5][6] At other times it refers to deities in the plural.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

The word is the plural form of the word eloah[1][2][4][7][8][9] and related to el. It is cognate to the word 'l-h-m which is found in Ugaritic, where it is used as the pantheon for Canaanite gods, the children of El, and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim".

Gregory said:
I believe that Yahweh and Jehovah are the same God.

]

They are! these are just two anglicized ways of spelling the same one word in Hebrew!

Gregory said:
You would have to give me an example of "another manifestation of God".

Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

if X=Jesus, this is another manifestation of God! Y being the Father and Z being the spirit.

Gregory said:
I define it as 3 distinct persons in 1 God.

Then we are in total agreement.

.

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Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #2

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