No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

Reggie Belafonte said:

The Kingdom of God is within you ! no one can say here it is ! or behold their it is.
It is in the midst of you and within your power to reach through faith.
It has begun - The Pharisees might of recognised it, if they had eyes to see and ears to hear.
The Messiah is already Reigning.
That is what being born again is about. as you are one in Christ and he in you, Saved ! so no one can pluck you out of his hand, because you are his.
At the second coming will come the Hellfire and what is burnt up is all the delusions and all will have no delusions set before you and what is left is God, as that's all that will exist for you. total reality is going to hit home ? and you will have nothing but to abide by, no body is going to be playing the deception fool because nobody will have time for that sugar.

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Yes, Jesus said the Kingdom was mystically present with Israel because he was also physically present among them! None of this Jesus meant to imply that the Kingdom wasn't physically coming. That's why he said it was *near,* and not *here!*

You obviously don't believe in a future Kingdom then? If so, you're the one who's missing out.

Randy Kluth said:

The same with the Body of Christ. If it is synonymous with the Church or Christians, and we know that the Bible says saints who believe in Christ are in the Tribulation Period, we can know for sure that the Bible is saying that the Body of Christ is in the Tribulation Period.

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Yes, there will be a tribulation church after the mid-trib rapture, as those who were left behind get saved, not to mention the lukewarm Christians who weren’t found worthy to escape the great tribulation, per Luke 21:36, will be part of that post rapture church.

Curtis said:

Yes, there will be a tribulation church after the mid-trib rapture, as those who were left behind get saved, not to mention the lukewarm Christians who weren’t found worthy to escape the great tribulation, per Luke 21:36, will be part of that post rapture church.

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This is the Mid-Trib take, and it is slightly different, although I think it still suffers the same disability as the Pretrib argument. With the Mid-Trib, you do acknowledge a Tribulation Church, and like the Pretribs, explain this as those who did not qualify to escape the trouble. There is indeed some grounds for believing that God puts disobedient saints through trouble to refine them.

Pretribbers who argue that the Church absolutely *cannot* be here because it is the time of Wrath have the problem of the Tribulation Church, who indeed are here during that time. But you're not calling the Tribulation Period a time of Wrath, but rather, a Disciplinary Period for the Tribulation Period. How does "Disciplinary Period" compare with "Time of Wrath?"

Well, in both cases, Pretrib and Midtrib, there is the belief that good Christians should not be in the "Disciplinary Period." But your problem, and Pretrib's problem, is that Christians are encouraged in this period, and not scolded. On the contrary, they are encouraged and praised.

I simply don't define the Reign of Antichrist as the "Time of Wrath," nor as a "Disciplinary Period." On the contrary, it is a time when good saints are encouraged to stand up and be counted. That is how the book of Revelation depicts it, not as absent the Church, nor as viewing a remorseful Church, repenting under the strain.

If anybody is being scolded, disciplined, and refined, it is those who have not yet accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord. The world will either be judged or come to salvation in this time, I think. But I'm sure there will be weak Christians equally under discipline. It's just that this isn't the picture God paints of the Church at this time.

Curtis said:

Two comings of Christ occur. In the first coming, He came as a sacrificial lamb, not to set up a physical kingdom as the OT prophesied, so the kingdom was spiritual.

Second time He comes as the lion of Judah with a sword and the wrath of God to rule the nations with a rod of iron, which means He rules as king in His millennial kingdom.

That kingdom is physical.

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No it's not ! It's Spiritual first and foremost or it's not the Kingdom at all.

I have had people claim that Spiritual Israel is one thing and literal physical Kingdom if you will is another.

No that's the carnal mindset physical Israel. such a thing is a dead society like an engine without petrol to run it, so it's useless as it was before Jesus Christ came.

You need the Holy Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of God is the whole planet, not some place or Town City you see with your eyes, that Carnal crap that only a dog seeks.

The Holy Land is carnal nonsense, it was nothing and Jesus destroyed that dogs dinner in 3 days. it is not a Place ! Look I can see it over yonder you all, we is coming to the City of God ? hogwash, if you are not truly born again you will not be in the Kingdom of God in fact, no one can get into the Kingdom of God unless you are not on the list, their is a list of all who can not enter in fact in the Bible.
This world works to deprive you all of the Kingdom of God.

Is the Kingdom of God Married to the Kingdom of Heaven ?
Paradise ? is the Kingdom of God, one is abiding with God. remember why they got kicked out of the garden. and the dude on the cross Jesus said this day you shall be in Paradise, Jesus did not say in Heaven.

What was it that Jesus said to Nathaniel and what would Nathaniel see ? yep ! Nathaniel was a true Israelite Jesus said so. the epitome of Israel. So if you are not as Nathaniel are you worthy ? well Nathaniel was in the eyes of Jesus Christ in fact. No dog gets in or arrives at the gates their off.

Dogs may claim that they are going to Heaven but is that a fact because one makes such a claim ? well they may claim Lord Lord, but what will Jesus truly have to say about that ? Mans works will never cut it, so why push the false Israel nonsense. look 1948 etc etc is all the works of man in fact outright. look what we are doing you will hear, Haha ! idiots. I am giving money to Israel ? C'mon, True Israel does not need your money at all, nor you worldly works. It will be because it is what it is in it's own right. you can not destroy bro ! you can not fight them big waves bro, you have to let the waves do the work. it's in their you just have to find it.

Randy Kluth said:

I don't know if you're trying deliberately to be obscure. You say you don't use the argument that the Church isn't in the Tribulation Period. And then you imply that during the Tribulation the "Body of Christ" isn't here. You seem to enjoy the seclusion of not clarifying things for me?

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This discussion is all over the map.

I didn't say I didn't use the argument that the church is not in the tribulation period. I said that I don't use the argument that the church is not there because it is not subject to God's wrath.

Randy Kluth said:

The same with the Body of Christ. If it is synonymous with the Church or Christians, and we know that the Bible says saints who believe in Christ are in the Tribulation Period, we can know for sure that the Bible is saying that the Body of Christ is in the Tribulation Period.

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I think the point you are making here is that if "saint" is simple another word for "NT Christian", and that in all cases where we read "saint" we can also know it's talking about NT Christians, then when read "saint" in the Revelation we can know this is talking about us. That's the idea?

I don't think "saint" is always in reference to NT Christians.

Personally I find rapture discussions to be among the most complex of all, and touch on many other doctrines of salvation and the church and Israel.

Much love!

Randy Kluth said:

I don't know if you're trying deliberately to be obscure. You say you don't use the argument that the Church isn't in the Tribulation Period. And then you imply that during the Tribulation the "Body of Christ" isn't here. You seem to enjoy the seclusion of not clarifying things for me?

When you say "the Bible doesn't say that," are you saying that the *idea* isn't being presented biblically, or are you saying that the *exact words* I used aren't be used as such? I say that because the Scriptures do say what you claim it doesn't say. If the Body of Christ is the Church, and we are informed that Christians are in the Tribulation Period, ie the Church is in the Tribulation Period, then it follows that what the Bible is saying is that the *Body of Christ* is in the Tribulation Period.

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This sounds like a good example.

I don't think the Bible does say that the body of Christ is on the earth during the 70th week. You have to make the equivalency of saint to "body of Christ", and in fact, saint is used of OT believers. OT believers are never called the body of Christ. Saint is also, if I'm remembering correctly, used for angels in certain instances.

It comes down to a reasonable sounding idea that saints are Christians, and Christians are saints, but there's more to it than that.

Much love!

Just to give some background on my thinking . . .

Those who are "in Christ" will be caught up from the earth to meet with Jesus in the sky, whether alive or dead at the time. This is the resurrection and transformation of this group of people.

We know that the OT faithful will likewise be resurrected on the "last day". Daniel is told, he will stand in his allotment at the end of the days. He had just been told about the 1260, and the 1335 days.

Daniel 12:11-13 KJV
11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

At the end of these 1335 days, Daniel will be resurrected to his inheritance.

Is this the same resurrection as at the rapture of the church?

Many people associate the rapture of the church with the gathering of the chosen in Matthew 24. Simply stated, if this were so, then the righteous gentiles would have been gathered at the same time, leaving none to participate in the sheep/goats judgment.

There is the matter of the judgment of those sheep, being declared righteous, citing the cause being their works, not their faith. We need to be able to account for these things.

We need to have our ecclesiology correct. The wedding feast is a great example. Is this the church being wed to Jesus? The Bible uses the weding relationship as a simile of our relationship with Jesus, but then goes on to say that it's because of our relationship with Jesus that marriage exists in the first place. The Bible does tell us that Israel was wed to God, divorce, and will be remarried to Him.

The wedding feast . . . heaven or earth? Earth, because many will come from the east and west, and north and south. Terrestrial compass points are not used of heaven, only earth.

The sealing of the 144,000, these are "the servants of God", indicating there aren't others. Where did the rest go? And then there we are, before the throne, and before the plagues.

The 70th week . . . it is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jacob.

There really is a lot to this, but I wanted to give a better idea of some of my thinking. I'm hoping I did.

Much love!

marks said:

I don't think the Bible does say that the body of Christ is on the earth during the 70th week. You have to make the equivalency of saint to "body of Christ", and in fact, saint is used of OT believers. OT believers are never called the body of Christ. Saint is also, if I'm remembering correctly, used for angels in certain instances.

It comes down to a reasonable sounding idea that saints are Christians, and Christians are saints, but there's more to it than that.

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Saints are those who take up their cross and follow Jesus. My take is that the saints "willfully" enter the tribulation knowing full well what they will face and do so out of meekness and Love as a testimony for the Lost.

The way I see it, the final week is divided into two periods, the tribulation, and the wrath. The tribulation is the final act of mercy on God's part to save the Lost of the world. there comes a time in Revelation when repentance is no more found on the earth and this marks the beginning of the Wrath of God. (Revelation 9:20-21, Revelation 11:18) From that point on the saints join the army of God, this is the "rapture" we who are alive and remain are changed while the dead saints come to life, the first resurrection.

That being said, the escapism concept of the pretrib rapture position will be seen as misleading as soon as the proverbial SHTF. This will be the first wave of repentance to be found in the tribulation, of those who realize they were wrong. It will be followed by many more such woes including the three great woes spoken of.

David H. said:

the escapism concept of the pretrib rapture position

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In saying this, you reveal your lack of understanding of the doctrine you seek to refute. It seems to me that you would be better served in understanding the view you oppose, before setting yourself so resolutely against it.

Much love!

GISMYS_7 said:

YES!!! Eaveryday!!! But the great tribulation is God's wrath against all evil Jesus rejectors not against His family (church) we raptured believers are in heaven!! And you????

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Against the beast , his kingdom , his children . Yep the wrath of GOD does come against that .
But the wrath of the beast comes against the saints . Be ready and willing to be persecuted for its coming to a land near us .
This big ol fat fake unity we are one , is gonna help usher in the great betrayal of the last remaining lambs who conformed not to this dung pile .
This ol lamb has no plans on going all inclusive . ITS the orginal gospel for me and its the original gospel that shall be sounded out
no matter who it offends . The one true gospel is already being shut down in areas by a false inclusive fat lie .
Soon enough they will come for the ones who wont conform to their lie . Be ready and let none sell out for a lie .

marks said:

In saying this, you reveal your lack of understanding of the doctrine you seek to refute. It seems to me that you would be better served in understanding the view you oppose, before setting yourself so resolutely against it.

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Actually i would rather have the entire church believing in the pretrib rapture, because they would then be the first to see the need to repent, so I do not malign that position even though i disagree with it. That being said, many of those people will fall away when faced with the Mark of the beast.

David H. said:

so I do not malign that position even though i disagree with it.

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David H. said:

the escapism concept of the pretrib rapture position

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Forests and trees?

"In Christ", and, "the Sheep and the Goats"

Those who are "in Christ" are identified that way.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ, and we (likewise in Christ) which are alive and remain.

Jesus identifies the sheep of Matthew 25 differently.

Matthew 25:33-35 KJV
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

These are not separated as sheep because they are in Christ. They are separated as sheep because they served the needs of Jesus through His brothers, the Israelites.

Why would that be?

Much love!

marks said:

This sounds like a good example.

I don't think the Bible does say that the body of Christ is on the earth during the 70th week. You have to make the equivalency of saint to "body of Christ", and in fact, saint is used of OT believers. OT believers are never called the body of Christ. Saint is also, if I'm remembering correctly, used for angels in certain instances.

It comes down to a reasonable sounding idea that saints are Christians, and Christians are saints, but there's more to it than that.

Much love!

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Okay, thanks for the explanation. The problem with that is, the "saints" mentioned in the book of Revelation are identified as believers in Christ--so they aren't OT saints! BTW, I don't refer to the Reign of Antichrist as either the "Tribulation Period" or the "70th Week." But for your sake, I do refer to it, in quotes, as the "Tribulation Period." It is not, however, in any sense whatsoever, the "70th Week," in my view.

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.

Contrasting with this, mention is made of those who are not being conquered, namely those who worship the Antichrist...

Rev 13.8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

As you can see, a distinction is being made between God's people, who worship the Lamb, or Christ, and those who worship the Beast, the Antichrist. These people are therefore *Christians.* We can confirm this further.

Rev 14.12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

As you can plainly see, the "people of God" John refers to are *Christians,* the "Body of Christ!" It doesn't have to use the words "Body of Christ" in order to state that the Church is there in the "Tribulation Period," the reign of Antichrist.

Pretribbers refuse to accept this, because it is a threat to their Dispensationalist system. But lacking any real Pretrib Theology, I think it is fatal to the Pretrib position. I think you should give converting to Postrib a thought?

amigo de christo said:

Against the beast , his kingdom , his children . Yep the wrath of GOD does come against that .
But the wrath of the beast comes against the saints .

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Revelation 12:13-17 KJV
13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who is this woman?

The answer is of course included. She who brought forth the man-child. She who is directed to flee to the wilderness. She is Israel.

Much love!

Randy Kluth said:

But for your sake, I do refer to it, in quotes, as the "Tribulation Period."

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Why for my sake? I don't refer to it that way myself. I will mention the great tribulation, although more properly I'd say the time of greatest tribulation. As I've said I like to stay as close to the Biblical terminology as I can.

Much love!

Randy Kluth said:

Pretribbers refuse to accept this, because it is a threat to their Dispensationalist system. But lacking any real Pretrib Theology, I think it is fatal to the Pretrib position. I think you should give converting to Postrib a thought?

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I think I could argue in favor of post trib as well as most who believe the view. However, I find it has irreconcilable conflicts with Scripture.

All the arguments about what we call those who are the believers, the people of God, during "the tribulation", to me are secondary to the question of the rapture.

The rapture is of those who are "In Christ". That designation is never used for anyone during the time described in the Revelation. Make of that what you will, the real point to me is that whether or not there are believers on earth before or after some certain thing, that does not establish whehter that certain thing could or could not happen. In this instance, the church can be raptured, and then new people come to believe, and the prophecies continue to be fulfilled. I don't think it's that simply though.

Please try to avoid characterizing my arguments as the same as others you've heard, I don't think they are. I'm not "classic Calvary Chapel pre-trib", and I don't argue it that way.

Much love!

Randy Kluth said:

This is the Mid-Trib take, and it is slightly different, although I think it still suffers the same disability as the Pretrib argument. With the Mid-Trib, you do acknowledge a Tribulation Church, and like the Pretribs, explain this as those who did not qualify to escape the trouble. There is indeed some grounds for believing that God puts disobedient saints through trouble to refine them.

Pretribbers who argue that the Church absolutely *cannot* be here because it is the time of Wrath have the problem of the Tribulation Church, who indeed are here during that time. But you're not calling the Tribulation Period a time of Wrath, but rather, a Disciplinary Period for the Tribulation Period. How does "Disciplinary Period" compare with "Time of Wrath?"

Well, in both cases, Pretrib and Midtrib, there is the belief that good Christians should not be in the "Disciplinary Period." But your problem, and Pretrib's problem, is that Christians are encouraged in this period, and not scolded. On the contrary, they are encouraged and praised.

I simply don't define the Reign of Antichrist as the "Time of Wrath," nor as a "Disciplinary Period." On the contrary, it is a time when good saints are encouraged to stand up and be counted. That is how the book of Revelation depicts it, not as absent the Church, nor as viewing a remorseful Church, repenting under the strain.

If anybody is being scolded, disciplined, and refined, it is those who have not yet accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord. The world will either be judged or come to salvation in this time, I think. But I'm sure there will be weak Christians equally under discipline. It's just that this isn't the picture God paints of the Church at this time.

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JESUS warned: Matthew 24:v.14-15 and 21 to 25

14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place-Daniel 12:v.11, (whoso readeth, let him understand

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be SAVED: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any MAN (Pastors, Bishops, Evangelists, among others) shall say unto you (shall preach on the pulpit of the churches), Lo, here is Christ (John 5:v.43-47), or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it be possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

marks said:

"In Christ", and, "the Sheep and the Goats"

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More like the wheat and the tares. Both are ripening in the same field together, the church, till the Angels separate the tares and throw them into the fire, while the wheat is then gathered into the barn.... notice the wheat is not gathered first.

Reggie Belafonte said:

No it's not ! It's Spiritual first and foremost or it's not the Kingdom at all.

I have had people claim that Spiritual Israel is one thing and literal physical Kingdom if you will is another.

No that's the carnal mindset physical Israel. such a thing is a dead society like an engine without petrol to run it, so it's useless as it was before Jesus Christ came.

You need the Holy Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of God is the whole planet, not some place or Town City you see with your eyes, that Carnal crap that only a dog seeks.

The Holy Land is carnal nonsense, it was nothing and Jesus destroyed that dogs dinner in 3 days. it is not a Place ! Look I can see it over yonder you all, we is coming to the City of God ? hogwash, if you are not truly born again you will not be in the Kingdom of God in fact, no one can get into the Kingdom of God unless you are not on the list, their is a list of all who can not enter in fact in the Bible.
This world works to deprive you all of the Kingdom of God.

Is the Kingdom of God Married to the Kingdom of Heaven ?
Paradise ? is the Kingdom of God, one is abiding with God. remember why they got kicked out of the garden. and the dude on the cross Jesus said this day you shall be in Paradise, Jesus did not say in Heaven.

What was it that Jesus said to Nathaniel and what would Nathaniel see ? yep ! Nathaniel was a true Israelite Jesus said so. the epitome of Israel. So if you are not as Nathaniel are you worthy ? well Nathaniel was in the eyes of Jesus Christ in fact. No dog gets in or arrives at the gates their off.

Dogs may claim that they are going to Heaven but is that a fact because one makes such a claim ? well they may claim Lord Lord, but what will Jesus truly have to say about that ? Mans works will never cut it, so why push the false Israel nonsense. look 1948 etc etc is all the works of man in fact outright. look what we are doing you will hear, Haha ! idiots. I am giving money to Israel ? C'mon, True Israel does not need your money at all, nor you worldly works. It will be because it is what it is in it's own right. you can not destroy bro ! you can not fight them big waves bro, you have to let the waves do the work. it's in their you just have to find it.

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That Jesus lands on earth and rules the nations with a rod of iron at His second coming is beyond crystal clear in scripture. That is a literal and physical kingdom.