John 3 - Born of Water and Spirit

Ferris Bueller · Jun 10, 2021

GracePeace said:
--that is impossible of course, since water baptism is an integral facet of Christianity, which is to be accepted, and never rejected

Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is what is an integral facet of Christianity, which is to be accepted and never rejected. We see in the book of Acts Paul encountering the Ephesians, and Apollos who "knew only John's baptism".....

Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, well versed in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. Acts 18:24-25

Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:1-5

John's baptism is not sufficient, though it was commanded. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that only until a man is also baptized in the Spirit can he see and enter into the kingdom of God. For John's baptism, the baptism of water alone for repentance, does not result in a spiritual man who inherits the kingdom, but a natural, unspiritual man of fleshly effort who does not.

GracePeace · Jun 10, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is what is an integral facet of Christianity, which is to be accepted and never rejected. We see in the book of Acts Paul encountering the Ephesians, and Apollos who "knew only John's baptism".....

Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, well versed in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. Acts 18:24-25

Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:1-5

John's baptism is not sufficient, though it was commanded. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that only until a man is also baptized in the Spirit can he see and enter into the kingdom of God. For John's baptism, the baptism of water alone for repentance, does not result in a spiritual man who inherits the kingdom, but a natural, unspiritual man of fleshly effort who does not.

They meant they were only in town while John preached, and somehow (easily explained--John baptized for some time before Christ began baptizing anyone--and certainly before the New Covenant was inaugurated) never were baptized into Christ.

I didn't know you were drawing a distinction between people who only received John's baptism but never were baptized in Christ's Name. Of course they couldn't really exist today so I don't see the point in making this argument (as I assume most of the doctrines in John are to be applicable throughout this age not just during that particular time).

My position is "born of water" means "born of the Word".

Tetha · Jun 10, 2021

GracePeace said:
The context of Romans 6:6 is one (the body of sin is destroyed just as the clay vessel must be destroyed after it is defiled--it cannot be cleansed or improved or reformed); the context of Jeremiah (God is trying to avert destroying them, so he's trying to give them another chance--and he says the vessel is marred in the process of molding not defiled) is another.

Well if your referring to the outer man being broken, as in a contrite heart then yah. Think Gideon’s clay vessel broken to reveal the lights within to overcome enemies.

GracePeace · Jun 10, 2021

Tetha said:
Well if your referring to the outer man being broken, as in a contrite heart then yah. Think Gideon’s clay vessel broken to reveal the lights within to overcome enemies.

No, read Romans 6:6, Romans 7:24-25, and take other relevant verses into consideration (eg, "I have been crucified with Christ" "through which I've been crucified to the world" "the Jew is only obligated to the Law as long as he lives... you also died through the body of Christ", etc, etc, etc).

GracePeace · Jun 10, 2021

Tetha said:
Well if your referring to the outer man being broken, as in a contrite heart then yah. Think Gideon’s clay vessel broken to reveal the lights within to overcome enemies.

It's better to consider how to make Jesus look great than how to make people think you're smart.

I don't want to stray too far from the topic, so please let's bring it back to the topic.

GracePeace · Jun 10, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is what is an integral facet of Christianity, which is to be accepted and never rejected. We see in the book of Acts Paul encountering the Ephesians, and Apollos who "knew only John's baptism".....

Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, well versed in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. Acts 18:24-25

Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:1-5

John's baptism is not sufficient, though it was commanded. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that only until a man is also baptized in the Spirit can he see and enter into the kingdom of God. For John's baptism, the baptism of water alone for repentance, does not result in a spiritual man who inherits the kingdom, but a natural, unspiritual man of fleshly effort who does not.

Please show even one verse teaching John's water baptism unto repentance (not the New Covenant rite of water baptism in Christ's Name) wrought a birth of any sort.

GracePeace · Jun 11, 2021

Tetha said:
Well if your referring to the outer man being broken, as in a contrite heart then yah. Think Gideon’s clay vessel broken to reveal the lights within to overcome enemies.

GracePeace said:
No, read Romans 6:6, Romans 7:24-25, and take other relevant verses into consideration (eg, "I have been crucified with Christ" "through which I've been crucified to the world" "the Jew is only obligated to the Law as long as he lives... you also died through the body of Christ", etc, etc, etc).

In case you want to quarrel about whether Paul meant we literally physically die with Christ, Paul was a Pharisee, and we have preserved in the Talmud an identical Pharisaic tradition (and again Paul assumed these Jewish Christian readers in the Roman Church he was addressing were aware of the tradition)

Niddah 61b
Our Rabbis taught: A garment in which kil'ayim4 was lost5 may not be sold to an idolater,6 nor may one make of it a packsaddle for an ass, but it may be made into7 a shroud for a corpse. R. Joseph observed: This8 implies that the commandments will be abolished in the Hereafter.9 Said Abaye (or as some say R. Dimi) to him: But did not R. Manni10 in the name of R. Jannai state, 'This8 was learnt only in regard to the time of the lamentations11 but for burial12 this is forbidden'?13 — The other replied: But was it not stated in connection with it, 'R. Johanan ruled: Even for burial'? And thereby R. Johanan followed his previously expressed view, for R. Johanan stated: 'What is the purport of the Scriptural text, Free14 among the dead?15 As soon as a man dies he is free from the commandments'.

GracePeace · Jun 11, 2021

GracePeace said:
In case you want to quarrel about whether Paul meant we literally physically die with Christ, Paul was a Pharisee, and we have preserved in the Talmud an identical Pharisaic tradition (and again Paul assumed these Jewish Christian readers in the Roman Church he was addressing were aware of the tradition)

Niddah 61b
Our Rabbis taught: A garment in which kil'ayim4 was lost5 may not be sold to an idolater,6 nor may one make of it a packsaddle for an ass, but it may be made into7 a shroud for a corpse. R. Joseph observed: This8 implies that the commandments will be abolished in the Hereafter.9 Said Abaye (or as some say R. Dimi) to him: But did not R. Manni10 in the name of R. Jannai state, 'This8 was learnt only in regard to the time of the lamentations11 but for burial12 this is forbidden'?13 — The other replied: But was it not stated in connection with it, 'R. Johanan ruled: Even for burial'? And thereby R. Johanan followed his previously expressed view, for R. Johanan stated: 'What is the purport of the Scriptural text, Free14 among the dead?15 As soon as a man dies he is free from the commandments'.

Without a physical death, he and his Jewish cohorts who believed in Christ would still be "under Law"--as it is, having died, they are Lawfully exempted, as it states...

"...through the Law, I died to the Law..."

The Law commands the Jews' liberation from Itself when ever it is that they die--and so paradoxically they are only obeying Law when they are free from Law but as long as they are under It they break It Galatians 6:13 and are rightfully cursed Galatians 3:10.

So, again, through Christ, the body of sin is DESTROYED, and the EFFECT is that they are dead to the Law--without the destruction of the body of sin, there would not have been a liberation from the Law--and so it is that the clay vessel once defiled is bound for destruction never cleansing as Lawfully it can never be.

Leviticus 11:33
As for any earthenware vessel into which one of them may fall, whatever is in it becomes unclean and you shall break the vessel.

The Law makes us wise unto salvation through faith in Christ 2 Timothy 3:15--it preaches Christianity.

Tetha · Jun 11, 2021

GracePeace said:
In case you want to quarrel about whether Paul meant we literally physically die with Christ, Paul was a Pharisee, and we have preserved in the Talmud an identical Pharisaic tradition (and again Paul assumed these Jewish Christian readers in the Roman Church he was addressing were aware of the tradition)

Niddah 61b
Our Rabbis taught: A garment in which kil'ayim4 was lost5 may not be sold to an idolater,6 nor may one make of it a packsaddle for an ass, but it may be made into7 a shroud for a corpse. R. Joseph observed: This8 implies that the commandments will be abolished in the Hereafter.9 Said Abaye (or as some say R. Dimi) to him: But did not R. Manni10 in the name of R. Jannai state, 'This8 was learnt only in regard to the time of the lamentations11 but for burial12 this is forbidden'?13 — The other replied: But was it not stated in connection with it, 'R. Johanan ruled: Even for burial'? And thereby R. Johanan followed his previously expressed view, for R. Johanan stated: 'What is the purport of the Scriptural text, Free14 among the dead?15 As soon as a man dies he is free from the commandments'.

New wineskins for old ... when the old husband is dead the woman is free to remarry. Iow, Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

GracePeace · Jun 11, 2021

Tetha said:
New wineskins for old ... when the old husband is dead the woman is free to remarry. Iow, Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

I'm not going to quarrel with you.
You don't know what you're saying, at all, period, end of story.
Hopefully that will be as clear to the readers as it has been to me from the first comment you made here.

Now we can get back to the point rather than spend an eternity correcting someone who hates correction.

Tetha · Jun 11, 2021

GracePeace said:
It's better to consider how to make Jesus look great than how to make people think you're smart.

I don't want to stray too far from the topic, so please let's bring it back to the topic.

Pointing to the Father rather than away from Him is not what I consider to be a smart Aleck (female equivalent, whatever that may be)

I’ll leave the thread, not much happening here.

Enoch111 · Jun 11, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
He's already got the 'water' birth down.

That is definitely not what the Lord was teaching. Natural birth is a given and has no bearing on spiritual things (as Christ also pointed out in this passage). But the Lord said this: Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What this meant is that in order to enter (and see) the Kingdom of God there are two elements involved: (1) water representing the Word of God or the Gospel and (2) the Holy Spirit who, is the one who supernaturally regenerates. So this water of the Word of God is as essential as the Holy Spirit. Without the Gospel there is no saving faith generated (Romans 10), and without faith there is no New Birth (John 1 and Titus 2). Please see my post above for the relevant Scriptures.

Illuminator · Jun 11, 2021

John 1:32 – when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

John 3:3,5 – Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

John 3:22 – after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus’ teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

John 4:1 – here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus’ baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Acts 10:47 – Peter says “can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?” The Bible always links water and baptism.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.

Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.

2 Kings 5:14 – Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 44:3 – the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.

Ezek. 36:25-27 – the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

Ferris Bueller · Jun 11, 2021

Enoch111 said:
That is definitely not what the Lord was teaching. Natural birth is a given and has no bearing on spiritual things (as Christ also pointed out in this passage). But the Lord said this: Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What this meant is that in order to enter (and see) the Kingdom of God there are two elements involved: (1) water representing the Word of God or the Gospel and (2) the Holy Spirit who, is the one who supernaturally regenerates. So this water of the Word of God is as essential as the Holy Spirit. Without the Gospel there is no saving faith generated (Romans 10), and without faith there is no New Birth (John 1 and Titus 2). Please see my post above for the relevant Scriptures.

It just doesn't fit well.

This is about natural man vs. spiritual man. The man born of fleshy effort is the natural man. The man born of the Spirit is the spiritual man. Only the spiritual man inherits the kingdom. Paul explains this in Galatians 4. There you see that the natural man, the fleshly man, is the man of self effort. He is flesh giving birth to flesh.

Enoch111 · Jun 11, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
It just doesn't fit well.

Kindly look at the exact words of Christ -- "WATER AND SPIRIT". So the question should be what is this "water" which only God can sprinkle (according to Ezekiel) in order to bring about the New Birth? It cannot be ordinary H2O since Jesus was speaking about spiritual realities.

CadyandZoe · Jun 11, 2021

GracePeace said:
Many, many times I have explained that my view is NOT that water and Spirit are the same but refer to the Word and the Spirit.

I just don't know how to make that work.

GracePeace · Jun 11, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
It just doesn't fit well.

This is about natural man vs. spiritual man. The man born of fleshy effort is the natural man. The man born of the Spirit is the spiritual man. Only the spiritual man inherits the kingdom. Paul explains this in Galatians 4. There you see that the natural man, the fleshly man, is the man of self effort. He is flesh giving birth to flesh.

Actually, those Jews of Galatians 4 still exist today--and they don't accept John's Baptism.
John's Baptism has nothing to do with natural men being born.

GracePeace · Jun 11, 2021

CadyandZoe said:
I just don't know how to make that work.

I've explained it. "My Words are Spirit and life".

Tetha · Jun 11, 2021

Words are spirit and life needs a study of the woman at the well to establish understanding. jm2c

GracePeace · Jun 11, 2021

Tetha said:
Words are spirit and life needs a study of the woman at the well to establish understanding. jm2c

No, not "words" but "Christ's Words".

John 3 - Born of Water and Spirit

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