About the Signs of the Second Coming of Jesus

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
HI Ross. Don't know where you come up with all this ages of Israel and all and that the 490 years ended with Jesus birth in 4-6 B.C. It always is a mystery to me why people feel compelled to add to the simple teachings of Scripture!

<snip>

Vse. 24 490 years have been decreed for Israel to end her transgression (it is singular not transgressions) finish sins and end iniquity. this follows the prophecies in Ez. 20:33-38 and Zech. 12:8-9 that Israel will finish her sin.

As I only commented on verse 24, I will only respond to the portions of your rebuttal of my post which deals with verse 24 in your post.

Here are two translation which cover verse 24: -

Daniel 9:24: - 24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins.

To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.​
NKJV
Daniel 9:24: - 24 "Seventy weeks have been determined
concerning your people and your holy city
to put an end to rebellion,
to bring sin to completion.

To atone for iniquity,
to bring in perpetual righteousness,
to seal up the prophetic vision,
and to anoint a most holy place.​
The NET Bible®

In both translations, the eight lines of the verse as written in the respective two translations can be broken into two distinct parts. The first four lines in each translation is dealing with the Nation of Israel and their corporate sin of continual idolatrous worship, to finish the transgression and to make an end of their sins or as expressed in the NET, "to bring sin to completion."

In both translation, the next four lines, is telling what will occur after the 490 years of the Lords Grace for the nation of Israel to repent of their sins committed up to that time and to put to an end those respective sin(s), concerns what the servant Israel, i.e. Christ, will achieve on the cross.

That was the main point of my post.

However I did put the context of the time spans for the completion of their sin with respect to Exodus 20:4-6 which speaks of the visitation of the iniquities of the idolatrous worship of the nation of Israel of the fathers during the first two ages of their existence during the next two ages upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth ages of their existence.

Now your two references, Ez. 20:33-38 and Zech. 12:8-9, speaks of this present time in our near future, when God will gather the nation of Israel to Himself and purge them of the rebels against God and the renewing of His Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations covenant which they had rebelled against at Mt Sinai. These two prophecies do not begin until the completion of the visitation of their iniquities upon the fathers children during the third and the fourth age.

The Ezekiel 20:33-38 passage I would paraphrase in this manner: -

God Will Restore Israel

33 "As I live," says the Lord God, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land/country of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God.

37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country/earth where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land/fertile field of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

The Zechariah 12:7-9 passage speaks of God protecting the city of Jerusalem and the house of Judah from the nations coming once more to trample God's earthly hosts when the nations will assemble at Armageddon.

Because nearly two and a half ages have passed since Daniel penned chapter 9, we are better able to understand what the context of verse 24 is.

Shalom
 
Last edited:

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you have a second and then a thrid coming for Jesus. WOW!




This is still future. We have not hasd the seals opened yet, nor have the first six trumpets sounded either.




Never said that Satan is the 2nd coming Messiah. Where you get that is reinterpreting my words like you reinterpret Scripture.

But Daniel 9 does not say Jesus is the Messiah prince that shall come in Verse 26. The prince is of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary! That is 2nd grade grammar for pity's sake!!!!!!! That makes him some sort of Roman ruler. Then in verse 27- the he by rule must refer back to its nearest antecedant personal noun that matches it in gender and number. That he cannot skip a noun to go to another noun unless clearly and explicitly delineated. So the "he" in verse 27 refers back to the Prince of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary.

If you fail to understand basic rules of grammar, no wonder why you accept such glaring allegorical reinterpretations of Scripture.
Stop putting the Romans into the text and you will be just fine.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nehemiah chapter 2 tells us which king issued the decree (artexerxes reigned 465-425 B.C.) The decree was issued c. 537 B.C. which puts 483 years right to the time of Messiah the prince and Him being cut off!
537 BC. Plenty of time for 483 years.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I only commented on verse 24, I will only respond to the portions of your rebuttal of my post which deals with verse 24 in your post.

Here are two translation which cover verse 24: -

Daniel 9:24: - 24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins.

To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.​
NKJV
Daniel 9:24: - 24 "Seventy weeks have been determined
concerning your people and your holy city
to put an end to rebellion,
to bring sin to completion.

To atone for iniquity,
to bring in perpetual righteousness,
to seal up the prophetic vision,
and to anoint a most holy place.​
The NET Bible®

In both translations, the eight lines of the verse as written in the respective two translations can be broken into two distinct parts. The first four lines in each translation is dealing with the Nation of Israel and their corporate sin of continual idolatrous worship, to finish the transgression and to make an end of their sins or as expressed in the NET, "to bring sin to completion."

In both translation, the next four lines, is telling what will occur after the 490 years of the Lords Grace for the nation of Israel to repent of their sins committed up to that time and to put to an end those respective sin(s), concerns what the servant Israel, i.e. Christ, will achieve on the cross.

That was the main point of my post.

However I did put the context of the time spans for the completion of their sin with respect to Exodus 20:4-6 which speaks of the visitation of the iniquities of the idolatrous worship of the nation of Israel of the fathers during the first two ages of their existence during the next two ages upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth ages of their existence.

Now your two references, Ez. 20:33-38 and Zech. 12:8-9, speaks of this present time in our near future, when God will gather the nation of Israel to Himself and purge them of the rebels against God and the renewing of His Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations covenant which they had rebelled against at Mt Sinai. These two prophecies do not begin until the completion of the visitation of their iniquities upon the fathers children during the third and the fourth age.

The Ezekiel 20:33-38 passage I would paraphrase in this manner: -

God Will Restore Israel

33 "As I live," says the Lord God, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land/country of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God.

37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country/earth where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land/fertile field of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

The Zechariah 12:7-9 passage speaks of God protecting the city of Jerusalem and the house of Judah from the nations coming once more to trample God's earthly hosts when the nations will assemble at Armageddon.

Because nearly two and a half ages have passed since Daniel penned chapter 9, we are better able to understand what context of verse 24 is.

Shalom


The only problem with your hypothesis is the fact that when Zerubbabel led the Israelites back to the land- they ceased their idolatrous ways. Israel in the land was fastidious to avoid idolattry for fear of once again being exiled from the land.

Well what time frame do you give for your 490 years??

I do not endorse the NET based on its translation methods.

but teh reality of Daniel 9 is this concerning the three issues of sin.

1.to finish the transgression transgression is "pesa" which is rebellion- by rejejcting Messiah they have rebelled against God and God dispersed them. This occurred in 70 -135 AD when Rome scattered Israel around the empire and eventually around the globe-the diaspora.

2. to make an end of sins,- is "taman" which means to stop doing something- when the 490 years are finished, Israel as a nation and people will no longer sin.

3.make reconciliation for iniquity is "aon" which is the blasphemy of the Spirit by the nation for saying Jesus was demon possessed. trhis will happen in the last three days before Jesus return. Itr is then, the veil will be removed, Israel will see and reconcile themselves to god, for their unbelief, call upon the Lord with "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" and it is this shout that brings the physical return of Jesus to earth to fight for Israel at Bozrah (PtetraIs. 63:1-5), fighting the antichrist all the way back to jerusalem, killing him and then ascending the Mount of Olives in His victory march.

first off the 490 are given to bring an end to all these things. the fact that Israel still lives in unbelief (except teh remnant) is proof the 490 years hasn't been completed.

As for Zech , I agree with you but I posted the wrong chapter- it is chapter 13:8-9 I meant which corresponds with Ez. 20:33-38.

Gods plan for Israel is on hold for the church age- or the calling out of the gentiles a people for God! Paul defines this well in Rom. 11.

This ages business you write- I have no clue as to where you get this other than it being a human construct and not a biblical one.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Stop putting the Romans into the text and you will be just fine.


Well the people to come who destroyed the sanctuary and city were the Romans- whetheryou accept it or not!

537 BC. Plenty of time for 483 years.

So you have Messiah being cut off, but not for Himself in 53B.C. long before He was born???????????????????? Wow whatever they put in your kool-aid is making you delirious.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Well what time frame do you give for your 490 years??

From 494 BC to 4 BC for Israel to repent of the continual idolatrous worship of the fathers of Israel during the first two ages of their existence.

I do not endorse the NET based on its translation methods.

I quoted both the NKJV and the NET Bible and the context in both is basically the same and agrees with many other English translations.

As for endorsing every translations, I find that all the translations have many errors in them, but at the moment they are the best means that we have to establish our relationship with God. The indwelling of the HS should be able to bring in the necessary corrections to our developed understandings from the translation, if we are prepared to be guided by the HS.

1.to finish the transgression transgression is "pesa" which is rebellion- by rejejcting Messiah they have rebelled against God and God dispersed them. This occurred in 70 -135 AD when Rome scattered Israel around the empire and eventually around the globe-the diaspora.

2. to make an end of sins,- is "taman" which means to stop doing something- when the 490 years are finished, Israel as a nation and people will no longer sin.

3.make reconciliation for iniquity is "aon" which is the blasphemy of the Spirit by the nation for saying Jesus was demon possessed. trhis will happen in the last three days before Jesus return. Itr is then, the veil will be removed, Israel will see and reconcile themselves to god, for their unbelief, call upon the Lord with "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" and it is this shout that brings the physical return of Jesus to earth to fight for Israel at Bozrah (PtetraIs. 63:1-5), fighting the antichrist all the way back to jerusalem, killing him and then ascending the Mount of Olives in His victory march.

first off the 490 are given to bring an end to all these things. the fact that Israel still lives in unbelief (except teh remnant) is proof the 490 years hasn't been completed.

I wonder why you have come to this conclusion. Exodus 20:4-6 tells us that the iniquities of the fathers will be visited upon the father's children and the children's children during the third and the fourth (age) of the existence of Israel. God intended for Israel to carry the punishment of the Gentile Nations for their idolatrous practices. Sadly, because the scholars in Israel from the very beginning could not understand the implications of this second commandment, the time span has been reduced in their understanding to a period of time that is consistent with a four descendant generations which completely hides the original intent of these verses. However, as we look back and meditate on this commandment, we are able to see that the timespan over which this prophetic word is applicable is for 4 ages since the time span from the birth of Isaac to this present time is around 4,000 plus years. As such the duration of an age is a little longer, i.e. 1,000 plus years.

Now your reference to "PtetraIs. 63:1-5", I assume was meant to be Isaiah 63:1-5 and if we read this, it clearly states that the Gentile church, which many claim is the replacement for Israel in the latter days, is also of no help to Christ when He comes up against the nations all of the peoples on the face of the whole earth.

As for Zech , I agree with you but I posted the wrong chapter- it is chapter 13:8-9 I meant which corresponds with Ez. 20:33-38.

Thanks for that correction.

Gods plan for Israel is on hold for the church age- or the calling out of the gentiles a people for God! Paul defines this well in Rom. 11.

It seems that you do not understand what Paul was stating in verses 25-26 of Romans 11. Paul is referencing the end of the 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts. This time period comes to its completion when the nations of the earth gather at Armageddon to be judged by the Lord as Isaiah 63:1-5 also speaks of.

This ages business you write- I have no clue as to where you get this other than it being a human construct and not a biblical one.

Well it can be found in the Bible scriptures if you know what to look for. What you have posted above in your rebuttal I would consider to be a man made construct to justify the theory being argued as being the "correct" understanding.

Shalom
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well the people to come who destroyed the sanctuary and city were the Romans- whetheryou accept it or not!



So you have Messiah being cut off, but not for Himself in 53B.C. long before He was born???????????????????? Wow whatever they put in your kool-aid is making you delirious.
It does not say the Messiah was cut of the day after. Who is drinking the cool aid, and not paying attention? After 483 years, Herod added to the temple and it was not even the same temple any more. It was the rebels who burned down the temple. It was the rebels who brought the Romans down upon themselves. The Ronans had ready been in control of Jerusalem for over 70 years. Who lost control of the city? It was the rebels who drove the Romans out of the city. They then destroyed it from within.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It does not say the Messiah was cut of the day after. Who is drinking the cool aid, and not paying attention? After 483 years, Herod added to the temple and it was not even the same temple any more. It was the rebels who burned down the temple. It was the rebels who brought the Romans down upon themselves. The Ronans had ready been in control of Jerusalem for over 70 years. Who lost control of the city? It was the rebels who drove the Romans out of the city. They then destroyed it from within.


So to you 483 years is literal but after the 483 years when Messiah is cut off could have been centuries? BUT BUT BUT!

Daniel 9:25-26
King James Version

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

the command until the Messiah was 483 years! Verse 25! So you have Jesus being born decades before He was born. Then you go with your allegorical reinterpretation and hypothesize that after 483 years (53 B.C.) is Messiah the Prince and the after the 483 years in your view is 83 years. WOW!
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
From 494 BC to 4 BC for Israel to repent of the continual idolatrous worship of the fathers of Israel during the first two ages of their existence.



I quoted both the NKJV and the NET Bible and the context in both is basically the same and agrees with many other English translations.

As for endorsing every translations, I find that all the translations have many errors in them, but at the moment they are the best means that we have to establish our relationship with God. The indwelling of the HS should be able to bring in the necessary corrections to our developed understandings from the translation, if we are prepared to be guided by the HS.



I wonder why you have come to this conclusion. Exodus 20:4-6 tells us that the iniquities of the fathers will be visited upon the father's children and the children's children during the third and the fourth (age) of the existence of Israel. God intended for Israel to carry the punishment of the Gentile Nations for their idolatrous practices. Sadly, because the scholars in Israel from the very beginning could not understand the implications of this second commandment, the time span has been reduced in their understanding to a period of time that is consistent with a four descendant generations which completely hides the original intent of these verses. However, as we look back and meditate on this commandment, we are able to see that the timespan over which this prophetic word is applicable is for 4 ages since the time span from the birth of Isaac to this present time is around 4,000 plus years. As such the duration of an age is a little longer, i.e. 1,000 plus years.

Now your reference to "PtetraIs. 63:1-5", I assume was meant to be Isaiah 63:1-5 and if we read this, it clearly states that the Gentile church, which many claim is the replacement for Israel in the latter days, is also of no help to Christ when He comes up against the nations all of the peoples on the face of the whole earth.



Thanks for that correction.



It seems that you do not understand what Paul was stating in verses 25-26 of Romans 11. Paul is referencing the end of the 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts. This time period comes to its completion when the nations of the earth gather at Armageddon to be judged by the Lord as Isaiah 63:1-5 also speaks of.



1.Well the command to rebuild Jerusalem occurred in the reign of Artexerxes as declared in Nehemiah. His reign was from 465- 425 B.C. So 494 is even before Daniel prophesied of the 470-7's.

2. dynamic Translations as the NET is for much of it, is a methodology fraught with subjectivity and not recommended.

3. It is not referring to Isaiah but Messiah Jesus! The church is in heaven at this point (REv. 19 ) Jesus first returns to Petra (Bozrah). Then moves to Jerusalem. that is why Isaiah is asking who is this coming from Petra. Isaiah never fought a major battle in Petra.

It seems that you do not understand what Paul was stating in verses 25-26 of Romans 11. Paul is referencing the end of the 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts. This time period comes to its completion when the nations of the earth gather at Armageddon to be judged by the Lord as Isaiah 63:1-5 also speaks of.


Wrong! The time of the gentiles began with Nebuchadnezzar! the time of the gentiles is the time gentiles have rule over Jerusalem. Even today Jerusalem is still not fully in Israeli hands as temple mount is in Muslim hands. It is antichrist who is the ruler who ends the times of the gentiles.

The fulness of the gentiles is about gentiles coming into the church and is a separate issue altogether and nothing to do with Jerusalem. You are using faulty exegesis.

Well it can be found in the Bible scriptures if you know what to look for. What you have posted above in your rebuttal I would consider to be a man made construct to justify the theory being argued as being the "correct" understanding.

Well as you are the very first I have seen expound this hypothesis of "Jewish ages" please share a brief summary with passages if you would.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Wrong! The time of the gentiles began with Nebuchadnezzar! the time of the gentiles is the time gentiles have rule over Jerusalem. Even today Jerusalem is still not fully in Israeli hands as temple mount is in Muslim hands. It is antichrist who is the ruler who ends the times of the gentiles.

The fulness of the gentiles is about gentiles coming into the church and is a separate issue altogether and nothing to do with Jerusalem. You are using faulty exegesis.

Well as you are the very first I have seen expound this hypothesis of "Jewish ages" please share a brief summary with passages if you would.

It seems that your post cannot be replied to because of coding errors that place your rebuttal within my post that you have quoted. As such I have extracted what I believe to be your comments that you embedded within your quote of my post.

As for your suggestion that the 2,300 years began with Nebuchadnezzar, that seems to be a JW or SDA teaching and I know that their teacher got the wrong sign post on which to hang the Daniel 8 prophecy on. The time of the Gentiles began around 250 BC and the form of trampling of the sanctuary and the earthly hosts took many forms.

As for the poor understanding of what Paul wrote that you have given, that is more in line with Pre-trib teaching, which has now begun to appear in the more modern translations.

As for giving you a brief summary on the "Jewish ages," this is too big of a topic for this forum with to many people who trample others because of their poor understanding of God's prophetic word.

It seems that we are finished our interactions.

Have a good day, now.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As for your suggestion that the 2,300 years began with Nebuchadnezzar, that seems to be a JW or SDA teaching and I know that their teacher got the wrong sign post on which to hang the Daniel 8 prophecy on. The time of the Gentiles began around 250 BC and the form of trampling of the sanctuary and the earthly hosts took many forms.


Now you have added a 2300 years? You have yet to give a brief synopsis of you rfour Jewish age hypothesis.

It is not a JW or SDA teaching. It is historical fact.

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jerusalem started being trampled by the gentiles with Nebuchadnezzar! Other than the short time during the Maccabean rebellion, Jerusalm has been continually occupied by Gentiles in some form or manner.


As for the poor understanding of what Paul wrote that you have given, that is more in line with Pre-trib teaching, which has now begun to appear in the more modern translations.

Well I am a pre-tribber and use teh KJV and the original languages.

As for giving you a brief summary on the "Jewish ages," this is too big of a topic for this forum with to many people who trample others because of their poor understanding of God's prophetic word.

Well as you wish this to end without even so much as referencing even a source for your 4 Jewish ages, then yes I agree we must finish.

to make a claim and then refuse to defend it is the mark of one who has o capacity to teach others.
Then to say that you on't because others may "insult" you makes your pride even worse.

You may have th elast post but unless you wish to give some info on this 4 Jewish ages, we are done.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Signposts of the coming Apocalypse:

The Bible does not prophesy the end of the world or of total destruction, but of a whole series of carefully timed events that lead up to the great and glorious Return of Jesus. The final countdown of the end times will take years and before the first prophesied event happens, we are told of a few preliminary things that will set the stage for the political, economic and religious climate that is necessary to trigger the Lord’s action. These preparatory steps seem to be falling into place in rapid succession.

It is humanly impossible to resolve the political situation in the Middle East, many countries have failing economies and in many countries; population has outstripped their resources.

Many people today react negatively to anyone who warns about a coming reset of civilization, even though it is obvious that things cannot continue as they are for much longer. They say it is foolish to worry about what may happen, or even talk about the trends and signs that point toward the end time scenario as portrayed in Scripture.

In Matthew 16:1-4, Jesus sternly rebuked the religious leaders of His day for their failure to discern the signs of His first coming. He was fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies and performing miracles, yet they were blind to it all. Likewise today, many religious leaders are doing the same, blinded to prophecy and to the signs that point to an imminent commencement of God’s program of preparation for the Second coming of Jesus.

God is preparing the world stage for His drama of the ages. When the curtain parts, when the heavens are torn asunder, Isaiah 64:1-2, then those who have failed to understand or even to consider the more than 100 prophesies that clearly tell about the forthcoming fire judgement/punishment, they will be shocked and terrified. .

A judgement by fire will happen next and it will be a testing time for all mankind. 1 Peter 4:12

Do not hope for a rapture from this first event. The prophesies that tell of a ‘meeting in the air’ refer to the visible Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, which is to come much later

The greatest threat facing the world is a nuclear armed Iran attacking Israel, along with their proxies and all the Islamic peoples. Psalms 83

Bible prophecy, our sure guide with proven fulfilled predictions, tells us that this war will not happen. Ezekiel 7:14 God’s wrath destroyed the civilization of Noah’s time with a great flood; this time He will use fire to destroy His enemies. The Lord promises to save a remnant of Jews in Jerusalem, Isaiah 31:5 and around the world, all those people who take heed of the warnings to shelter and who call upon His Name for protection, will be kept safe. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Isaiah 43:2

Do not doubt; events will unfold as the prophets have so graphically prophesied, so long ago. First this terrible judgement by fire, a massive CME will be blasted out from the Lord’s storehouse, the sun. Deut. 32:34-35, Isaiah 30:26-30
A one day worldwide disaster and we will never be the same again. 2 Peter 3:7

Then the world’s survivors will establish a One World Government, but the great promises of God to the Patriarchs and to His righteous people will then be fulfilled, as they gather and settle into the Holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 62:1-5, Zechariah 10:8-10, Romans 9:24-26
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hello

May I be allowed to comment without the usual horse hockey style comments.

In Daniel 9:24, Israel is given 490 years of opportunity through the yearly sin sacrifice to truly confess of their sin of idolatrous worship before the coming of their Messiah whose purpose was to change the process by which redemption would then come by. This verse can be broken into two parts.

The first section is the requirement for Israel to repent of their continual idolatrous worship and to then put away that sin of idolatrous behaviour before the end of the second age of their existence such that the iniquities of the fathers of the first two ages of Israel would not be visited upon the fathers' children and the children's children during the third and the fourth age of the existence of the nation of Israel. (Ex. 20:4-6) The nation was given 490 yearly opportunities to repent of their sin through their offering of their individual and corporate sin offerings. Because the nation of Israel would not repent of their sin, the visitation of their iniquities began at the very beginning of their third age of existence and would continue until the completion of the fourth age of their existence which is due to end in our immediate future from now, i.e. within about 25 years years time. The time count for the 490 years began from when the temple was repaired and sacrifices could once more be performed on the Temple's altar, with the last year of the time span being the year before Christ was born. Christ was born at the very beginning of third age of the existence of Israel, which corresponds to beginning of the fifth age for the existence of mankind.

The second portion of this single verse prophecy, speaks about the change to the process of how their sin will be forgiven after the cross through the single sacrifice of their Messiah on the Cross. The same forgiveness process is also available for the Gentiles who repent of their sins, since the time of the cross.

Shalom

You may have the last post but unless you wish to give some info on this 4 Jewish ages, we are done.

Please note that I have already given the relevant scripture that speaks of the four ages of Israel with respect to their interactions with God. Hosea 6:1-3 also confirms that there would be a two days of the lord duration of when God walked contrary to Israel, before they will be gathered once more to Him.

Jerusalem started being trampled by the gentiles with Nebuchadnezzar! Other than the short time during the Maccabean rebellion, Jerusalm has been continually occupied by Gentiles in some form or manner.

Daniel 8 might be a good place for you to start your historical lesson with respect to when the 2,300 years of the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts. This chapter informs us as to when the wicked fallen heavenly host, the Little Horn, appears on the scene after Alexandra the Great's empire was divided into four between his generals. The Greek Empire(s) came well after the demise of the Babylon Kingdom. Alexandra the Great died, as suggested by historians, in the year 323 BC. What I am suggesting to you is that around 70 years after the death of Alexandra the Great, the Little Horn was given an army, which has been one of many, with which he could trample God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts over the prophesied time span of 2,300 years. Today, this same Little Horn is using "funny theological Christians" to also trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts because of their lack of understanding.

Well I am a pre-tribber and use the KJV and the original languages.

Well here is the KJV of Romans 11:25, in question: -

"until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."​

Please allow the following paraphrase of these seemingly innocent words which have been trampled by the Pre-trib theology: -

"until the fulness, with respect to time, of the Heathen Gentiles, {trampling the sanctuary and earthly host}, has run its full course of 2,300 years"​

The next verse should also be paraphrased as: -

"And after this, all of Israel shall be save, when there shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"​

A close study on this Greek text would have revealed this to you.

It seems that your historical and Biblical understanding is flawed on many counts.

It is foolishness to continue a discussion with someone on the relevant biblical passages, when their understanding does not allow God's truth to prevail because of their perverted understanding of the scripture.

It is enough that you believe on the foundational truth, that will soon come down out of heaven as a "rock" to become the largest mountain on all of the earth, that "Jesus is the Son of God." Hold that truth closely and protected in your heart such that all may go well for you in the distant future.

Have a good day now.



 
Last edited:

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So to you 483 years is literal but after the 483 years when Messiah is cut off could have been centuries? BUT BUT BUT!

Daniel 9:25-26
King James Version

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

the command until the Messiah was 483 years! Verse 25! So you have Jesus being born decades before He was born. Then you go with your allegorical reinterpretation and hypothesize that after 483 years (53 B.C.) is Messiah the Prince and the after the 483 years in your view is 83 years. WOW!
Sorry that history messes with your theology. The birth of Jesus did not reset the calendar. Some men centuries later did.

You realize you have to trust human judgment to even get the correct number of years to align, no matter which decree or which ruler? Lean not on thy own understanding. That includes every human who led to your conclusion of precise dates.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Daniel 8 might be a good place for you to start your historical lesson with respect to when the 2,300 years of the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts. This chapter informs us as to when the wicked fallen heavenly host, the Little Horn, appears on the scene after Alexandra the Great's empire was divided into four between his generals. The Greek Empire(s) came well after the demise of the Babylon Kingdom. Alexandra the Great died, as suggested by historians, in the year 323 BC. What I am suggesting to you is that around 70 years after the death of Alexandra the Great, the Little Horn was given an army, which has been one of many, with which he could trample God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts over the prophesied time span of 2,300 years. Today, this same Little Horn is using "funny theological Christians" to also trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts because of their lack of understanding.

Your arrogance and judgmental attitude towards your brethren is saddening.

You are referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. He sprang from one of the four diadocha. He is the little horn that sprang from one of the four horns from the notable horn (Alexander)

YOu make a big deal of the demise of the Babylonian kingdom, but you seem to forget this inconvenient fact for your hypotheses

1. Babylon was the first empire to trample Jerusalem and the sanctuary.
2. the Medes and Persians conquered babylon and continued ruling over Jerusalem.
3. Greece conquered the Medes and Persians and continued ruling over Jerusalem.
4. Rome conquered Greece and continued ruling over Jerusalem.
5. Rome divided into two kingdoms and constantinople ruled over Jerusalem
6. then the Ottoman Empire ruled over Jerusalem
7. then came Britain.
8. Then came Jordan
9. Now Jerusalem though temprarily under Israeli controlled is still divided.
10 Mid way through the trib- the antichrist will establish the last time of the gentile rule.

The little horn of Daniel 8 is a man and not the antichrist. He does not have a fallen host that started war in the 3rd centruy B.C.

YOu use days to=1,000years. that is misinterpreting Scripture. You cite it mainly from Peter

Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

1. In context it is talking about gods patience.
2. and most important- this is clearly a metaphor and not to be taken literally as how god measures "heavenly days"! the phrase is marked with "is as" which marks it as a meta[phor and not to be taken literally.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry that history messes with your theology. The birth of Jesus did not reset the calendar. Some men centuries later did.

You realize you have to trust human judgment to even get the correct number of years to align, no matter which decree or which ruler? Lean not on thy own understanding. That includes every human who led to your conclusion of precise dates.


No history does not mess with my theology (actually the bible). Yeah the dates were done much later on but that means nothing!

You are just avoiding realizing that you have the 69th week :
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

You have the Messiah arriving long before teh Messiah was even born!
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Your arrogance and judgmental attitude towards your brethren is saddening.

You are referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. He sprang from one of the four diadocha. He is the little horn that sprang from one of the four horns from the notable horn (Alexander)

You make a big deal of the demise of the Babylonian kingdom, but you seem to forget this inconvenient fact for your hypotheses

1. Babylon was the first empire to trample Jerusalem and the sanctuary.
2. the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon and continued ruling over Jerusalem.
3. Greece conquered the Medes and Persians and continued ruling over Jerusalem.
4. Rome conquered Greece and continued ruling over Jerusalem.
5. Rome divided into two kingdoms and Constantinople ruled over Jerusalem
6. then the Ottoman Empire ruled over Jerusalem
7. then came Britain.
8. Then came Jordan
9. Now Jerusalem though temprarily under Israeli controlled is still divided.
10 Mid way through the trib- the antichrist will establish the last time of the gentile rule.

The little horn of Daniel 8 is a man and not the antichrist. He does not have a fallen host that started war in the 3rd centruy B.C.

YOu use days to=1,000years. that is misinterpreting Scripture. You cite it mainly from Peter

Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

1. In context it is talking about gods patience.
2. and most important- this is clearly a metaphor and not to be taken literally as how god measures "heavenly days"! the phrase is marked with "is as" which marks it as a meta[phor and not to be taken literally.

It is so sad that you do not see the spiritual identities whom Paul identifies in Ephesian 6:12, who are influencing people so that they manifest the respective dominate characteristics of these spiritual identities.

Now you made the following judgemental accusation: -

"Your arrogance and judgmental attitude towards your brethren is saddening."​

but, in your haste to blacken me, you have committed the same "crime," as you have accused me of.

You arrogantly present your "perverted" understanding as if it is true, without being able to discern the truth and keep repeating the lies generated during the reformation times with respect to the entities of the beasts and this also had an impacted on who the fourth nation was who had dominion over the land of the Chaldeans, i.e. the land of Babylon, which became a desolated and devastated area of land for two ages before the Roman Empire became a thing in the world, and had dominance over much of the known world of that time. The Grecian empire that gained dominion over the land of Babylon, and around 150 B.C. torn the utility structures apart stone by stone, loaded the stones onto carts and forced the people, living in Babylon at that time, to move to other parts of the respective Grecian Empire at that time where they re-assembled the utilities structures that they have brought on wagons with the people.

You claim that another member is wrong because they can paint a very different picture of God's truth to the one that you hold dear to yourself.

It really is time for us both to desist in presenting our respective POV's and allow this thread to continue going down the path that the other members want it to go down, without us both, irrespective of whether or not they are right or wrong in our respective opinions.

Have a good day now.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
~~~~~~~~~~~COUNTDOWN - LAST DECADE - 2020 - 2030~~~~~~~~~~

Jun 6, 2021 is the HUNDREDTH FIFTIETH SEVENTH DAY of the LAST DECADE of the CURRENT Devil's world.

The LAST WEEK - Daniel 9:v.27 - week of the Abomination of Desolation - it is within of this LAST DECADE, so, this satanic event is at door.
Be careful or get ready
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and shut to the door,... Luke 13:v.24-25
(This event is invisible and happens automatically over the years that follow)

...

See, this current decade is the last decade of the current Devil's world with all its structures, be political, be religious, social, economic, military, technologic, and so on.
And the earth also and THE WORKS that are therein shall be DISSOLVED and burned up, in fulfillment the prophetic message of Peter, the Apostle, in his 2nd epistle chapter 3:v.7-13, saying:
...
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

The door of salvation has started to close.
The current plague poured upon the planet as it is expressed in the Word of GOD- the Word is GOD - it is already being executed according the wrath of GOD - GOD will destroy those which destroy the earth - Revelation 11:v.18 - the Word is GOD.

Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:v.8

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings(kings made by Him) and LORD of lords


Your dates are wild, and not Biblical.

1st Period: seven sevens = 49 years. 454 B.C. to 405 B.C.
This period begins with the command to go forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. That was the first month, Nisan, 454 B.C. Artaxerxes of Nehemiah 1:1 and 2:1 that issues that decree is the same great king Astyages.

They completed the walls and temple dedication in 405 B.C. (see Ezra 6:10 and 15:19).

Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger said - "Archbishop Ussher's date for the commencement of the reign of Artaxerxes was A.M. 3531, which, in his Collatio Annorum, corresponds to 474 B.C. "The twentieth year of Artaxerxes" would, therefore, be 454 B.C."

2nd Period: 62 sevens = 434 years. 405 B.C. to 29 A.D.
This period began at the end of that first period, and was completed with the cutting off of Messiah in 29 A.D. by His crucifixion.

Thus at the time of Christ's crucifixion in 29 A.D., that completed 69 weeks of the 70 weeks Daniel prophecy, with still one final week left.

3rd Period: "one week" (or one seven) = 7 years. At the very END of this world.
This final 7 will mark the coming of the false Messiah to Jerusalem to be setup as king and as God in a newly built Jewish temple. This will happen just prior to Christ's return.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Private interpretation turns the Revelation of Jesus Christ into some Roman diefied man. That is a tragedy of interpretation. At the trial of Jesus Christ, His own people demanded that His blood be upon their hands and their children's hands. They brought about the destruction of their own city that day. That it happened 40 years later, it included their grandchildren as well.

The 70th week of Daniel is the Revelation of God on earth as Messiah 3.5 years, and as Prince until the conclusion of the 7th Trumpet.

Is that some hot gas you just had to pass, and I happened to be in its path, or are you trying to change what The Word of God says as written?

The Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is clearly historical, which means it fits historical periods, it's just that the final period of one seven isn't historical yet, but will be once Christ returns at the end of this world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No history does not mess with my theology (actually the bible). Yeah the dates were done much later on but that means nothing!

You are just avoiding realizing that you have the 69th week :
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

You have the Messiah arriving long before teh Messiah was even born!
All I am saying is you have to rely on humans for dates. Jesus was not born before your time "runs out". If you claim time runs out at the baptism, you have Christ born 30 years before what Scripture claims. Christ was born after the 69 weeks ended. No human can pinpoint the exact time and date. It is called an educated guess. The work of scholars. Mostly accepted by peer review of more earthly scholars. The blind leading the blind, in a popularity contest.