Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Kermos · May 20, 2021

Nancy said:
snip...

"In all of this, it is evident that man has a bond-will, not a free-will."

I see Christians as bond-servants to Christ when we joyfully serve Him, but one forced to serve to me, is not a "bond-servant" but kind of a slave? I do see myself as a "willing" slave (bond-servant?) to Christ but it is not a burden, and not forced.

T.U.L.I.P. Makes me very sad. Makes me lose hope and joy for family, friends and all the lost people I see around my neighborhood. My "thing" is to pray for the lost, pray for God to soften hearts and open eyes and ears to hear and see His Truth...HIM. It also has me wondering if God really is LOVE. Love encompasses all of His characteristics. His judgement, His wrath, all of it is JUST but, not so much if God purposely created some humans to be sent to hell. I think humans can do that pretty well on there own.

Mark 4:12
"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know this is Jesus speaking of the Pharisees and scoffers but, it seems that if they DID perceive then, understand, then converted having their sins forgiven would mean, they would have had a choice.

Yes agreed that everything God does is for His glory, and He does work through us down here to bring others to Him. It is what I see over and over again in the word.
In the end, we will all know the whole, complete, unadulterated TRUTH, Amen!

Anyhow Kermos, we might not agree 100% here, but I can understand why some believe this doctrine. I am starting to think it is a bit of both!

Again brother,
Good and kind and thoughtful post.
God bless and keep you in Him.
nancy

Hi again Nancy, I'd like to continue with the second half of your post now. I've labeled headers in upper case to distingiush the verious breaks that I perceive from our post.

HEADER: SERVANT VERSUS SLAVE

Did you know that the word "bond-servants" used in Revelation 22:6 is translated from the Greek word source root word of doulos, Strong's 1401 - slave?

The NASB uses bond-servants, and the KJV uses servants; however, for accuracy it should be translated slaves.

Revelation 22:6 is the last occurrence of bondservant that I found in the New Testament Bible books, now, the first occurrence is Luke 2:29.

In Luke 2:29, the word "bond-servant" (NASB, and "servant" for KJV) is translated from the Greek word source root word of doulos, Strong's 1401 - slave.

Adulterated word translation is not Truth (John 14:6), so such adulterated word translations can lead to destruction.

It is written "if the slave plainly says, ?I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,? then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently" (Exodus 21:5-6).

I am a grateful and loving and loved slave of Righteousness, that is, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Lord Christ has made me who I am, yet I none the creator of my salvation for I was against Christ before He created me in Him for Him; moreover, this is the way it is for all Christians. We Christians are saved wholly by the grace of God (John 3:3-8, John 3:14-16, John 6:29). We Christians have fruit of the Spirit, and this fruit evidences salvation (John 3:21).

I have not done an exhaustive search for the occurrences that doulos, Strong's 1401, was translated as bond-servant, but the sampling that I have examined I have found to be truly the word slave.

Maybe you are the one to do an exhaustive search...

HEADER: SADNESS

Nancy, you wrote that you are sad for those people that you mentioned.

You may use the acronym T.U.L.I.P. (this is not meant to imply permission, rather I'm just saying you might use it or you might not), I am not interested in it, so I am setting it aside.

Based upon what you wrote throughout your post and thread history, I am continuing to discuss God's exclusive control of man's salvation (John 3:3-8, John 3:21, John 6:29, John 15:16, John 15:19, and Matthew 11:25).

Are you sad for them now in their current state of opposition to Jesus Christ the Savior and Lord God eternal Creator of Heaven and Earth of all that is seen and unseen?

Nancy, while we're talking about this please keep in mind that a person is all in with Jesus, or a person is completely outside (Matthew 12:30).

With free will, praying for a lost soul does nothing because God is not in control of salvation because a person must choose Jesus in order to achieve salvation.

With bond will, praying for a lost soul in the will of God is answered with salvation for the lost soul because God is in control of salvation (1 John 5:14, Matthew 7:7).

Who, Nancy, in all of creation did God not create?

All things have come into being through the Word and apart from the Word nothing has come into being (John 1:3).

Nancy, who among the those people in your neighborhood has come into being apart from the act of God?

Scripture reveals that there are souls that perish in hell (2 Peter 2:9-10, John 3:36).

It is the default condition of mankind to march off to hell. Man is accountable for man's sin (Romans 1:20, Romans 3:19, Romans 5:12); in other words, God is not accountable for the sins of man.

No matter which way you look, Nancy, God created everybody, some will go to hell, but thankfully by God's grace some will go to be with God in heaven!

Since God identified every person to be saved from the wrath of God in the Book of Life written before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8, and incorporating this scripturally founded post showing that the Bible never indicates that "God is outside of time" (in this thread)), then only persons known to God in advance to the foundation of the world receive salvation, so God lovingly secures this blessed salvation.

Christ paid the penalty for this blessed salvation, so justice is served.

Unbelievers die in their sins then face eternal punishment for their crimes against God, so justice is served.

HEADER: MARK 4:12

When you wrote that the Pharisees would have had a choice, then you have given the Pharisees an ability that the apostles did not have according to Jesus who said "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

In Mark 4:12, Jesus expressed their ability and limitations, specifically seeing but not perceiving and hearing but not understanding in the first half-ish of the verse, yet in the second half-ish Jesus expressed of being converted and sins forgiven.

See that the second half-ish of Mark 4:12 are works of God (Matthew 18:3, John 3:3-8, Matthew 26:28), so these are not works of man.

See that in the first half-ish of Mark 4:12, there is inability to perceive and inability to understand.

Furthermore, in the second half-ish of Mark 4:12, Jesus uses a word that means "otherwise" (lest) which brings into contrast the first half's capabilities from the second half's capabilities in the verse.

So, Jesus explains that there exists persons who do not do the righteous actions of the first half-ish of Mark 4:12 thus such persons do not receive the glorious gifts of God indicated in the second half-ish of Mark 4:12.

Recall when Mary sat at the Master's feet listening to Him (Luke 10:49). Sitting and listening. Nancy, when you say "it seems that if they DID...they would have had a choice", then your position stops being listening to the Master and becomes telling the Master because the Master did not convey something along the lines of "it seems that if they DID...they would have had a choice". The Master did not say that they had the ability to choose, in fact, He did not use any variant of choice in the verse.

You've done something very similar with this verse that you did with the Isaiah verses as detailed in this post, that is, you are inferring into the words of Jesus.

Nancy, since Adam was not imparted free will, then neither were the Pharisees imparted free will because the Pharisees inherited flesh from Adam - as all people do. This is as the original post scripturally presents.

Nancy · May 20, 2021

Hello brother,
Sorry but, I do not have the mind anymore to do an "exhaustive search" on something unless I felt drawn to, or it peeks my interest

I think you did just fine.

Bottom line is that a True Christian will gladly follow and obey Christ regardless if one say's bond servant, or simply servant.
Can't say as I see it as being "adulterated", or that it changes context...?

"I am a grateful and loving and loved slave of Righteousness, that is, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!"

Glory to God, me too! Praise God, and amen bro! Kind of sounds like a "willing" slave maybe?

"With free will, praying for a lost soul does nothing because God is not in control of salvation because a person must choose Jesus in order to achieve salvation."

Perhaps, but one can pray for a softened heart, a changed mind. God could send sincere men or women of God in their path, men who they respect and listen to. He can open opportunities for discussion...
God can prepare a heart to receive the Truth, and the Holy Spirit convicts the world...?

Yes, we are saved by grace, through faith. And, does He not give EVERYONE a "measure of faith"?

"Are you sad for them now in their current state of opposition to Jesus Christ the Savior and Lord God eternal Creator of Heaven and Earth of all that is seen and unseen?"

Not quite sure I follow here. I'm sad for them because what hope do they really have? For their loved ones, friends...EVERYONE they may know and have a heart for?
What do you do with scriptures like:

Proverbs 11:30
“The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.”

There is another verse somewhere in Revelation, speaking of the "crowns". I do believe there is one listed that also involves "soul winning".

Yes brother, I do understand that it is all or nothing with Christ. 'Cannot serve both God and mammon...'

"With bond will, praying for a lost soul in the will of God is answered with salvation for the lost soul because God is in control of salvation (1 John 5:14, Matthew 7:7)."

With or without "bond" will when praying, I believe it IS His will that none should perish so...there will not come a day that I stop praying His will, and this is where I stand...STILL stand on the subject of free will. (BTW- how does free will even do a thing to change the truth of His Sovereignty?

I know there is much more in your post yet, there seems to be such a weariness on my end anymore and think I've come to an end with this discussion. No disrespect intended brother. Do not have the mental, emotional capacity to debate. i have become more of a "reader", lol.

Like you said brother, either way...some will be saved and some will not.

Blessed be God brother! Maybe we will one day meet on "THE" road

Vid · May 21, 2021

Kermos said:
Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

Enoch111 said:
The Bible does not have to state explicitly that Adam had free will. The fact that he CHOSE to disobey God is sufficient.

I wonder why there is so much debate about free will. Maybe people rely on different definitions of free will?
In my understanding, we all have free will since no one will stop us to do anything we like. This doesn't mean we won't face the consequences of our actions.

Enoch111 · May 21, 2021

Vid said:
I wonder why there is so much debate about free will.

It is all because of a false doctrine regarding the Gospel and how sinners cannot respond to the Gospel (in spite of what the Bible says).

Vid · May 22, 2021

Enoch111 said:
sinners cannot respond to the Gospel

How so? Aren't we all sinners?

Enoch111 · May 22, 2021

Vid said:
How so? Aren't we all sinners?

Ask the Calvinists or check out Five Point Calvinism.

Kermos · Jun 1, 2021

Davy said:
And I'm not too sure what you're saying about 'bonded'.

I don't believe in Calvinism, God has given man a free will to seek and follow Him, or not. It's only that He gives some the calling to The Gospel, and others the brute beast nature to work corruption (Jude 1). But even those have free will to overcome their natural brute beast nature and believe on Jesus Christ. So I don't know what 'hireling' has told you we don't have free will, but I'd be wary of them.

Davy, here is the statement that I wrote:

In fact, man has a bondwill. Man is bonded to the devil while man is in the flesh, or man is bonded to King Jesus while man is in the Holy Spirit (John 8:34-47).

Did you even read the scripture citation? The Word of God recorded in the passage is very clear with declaration like:

"everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin" (John 8:34)
"My word has no place in you" (John 8:37)
"You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature], for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

A slave of sin is bonded to the devil.

I know the identity of who tells you that you have a freewill, and it is not the Word of God (John 1:14).

The Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so the choosing for salvation is exclusively God's alone, none of man choosing God, all of God choosing man.

The Word of God states that "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so belief/faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God, not the work of man, but it is the work of God.

The Word of God states "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so good works/deeds/fruit, even coming to Jesus, is wrought in God (John 15:5).

It is sin not to believe the Word of God!

There is NO scripture that states Adam was imparted a freewill, just as the original post shows, so no person thereafter has a freewill.

Vid · Jun 2, 2021

Kermos said:
There is NO scripture that states Adam was imparted a freewill, just as the original post shows, so no person thereafter has a freewill.

You obviously consider freewill as the right to do anything one wants without having to bear any consequence. For me, freewill is the ability to do anything and freewill doesn't mean one won't have to bear the consequences of their actions.

Is freewill defined in the Bible?

Kermos · Jun 2, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Kermis said:
It is not a question of what the translators did, the Truth is that the Word of God used the specific Greek words ?????? ???????? (ego eimi) in Exodus 3:14, John 8:28, and John 8:58 which translates to English as ??I am??. If you believe that Jesus is not the I AM, then that is to your own destruction.[/Quote\]

In the greek septuagint version which is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures made by Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria ,Egypt, before the birth of Christ. When you compare the greek scripture of John 8:58 with the scripture of Exodus 3:14 of the greek septuagint version, Exodus 3:14 doesn't have the greek expression Ego' eimi for God's name. The septuagint version Exodus 3:14 uses the greek word "hoOn" which means, "The Being," or, "The One who is." So the greek expression "Ego' eimi," isn't used at both Exodus 3:14 and John 5:58.

BARNEY BRIGHT, what is the matter, why won't you properly quote in order to maintain thread consistency? This links back to the post that you quoted but ommitted for the integrity of the conversation.

Here is a link to the Septuagint showing ego eimi in Exodus 3:14, http://www.bayithamashiyach.com/Exodus_3.pdf (While other publishers exist, I use this one because it is color coding in Exodus 3:14 shows "I"/"Ego" in goldish/yellowish color and "am"/"eimi" in light blue).

Here is a link to the New Testament showing ego eimi in John 8:58, biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm (the final two words of the verse are "I"/"Ego" in goldish/yellowish color and "AM"/"eimi")

When you wrote "So the greek expression 'Ego' eimi,' isn't used at both Exodus 3:14 and John 5:58", you lied, and the proof is in the links provided.

As distasteful and bitter in your mouth as it is that Lord Jesus Christ is eternal God, the Word of God is truth with "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jun 2, 2021

Kermos said:
BARNEY BRIGHT, what is the matter, why won't you properly quote in order to maintain thread consistency? This links back to the post that you quoted but ommitted for the integrity of the conversation.

Here is a link to the Septuagint showing ego eimi in Exodus 3:14, http://www.bayithamashiyach.com/Exodus_3.pdf (While other publishers exist, I use this one because it is color coding in Exodus 3:14 shows "I"/"Ego" in goldish/yellowish color and "am"/"eimi" in light blue).

Here is a link to the New Testament showing ego eimi in John 8:58, biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm (the final two words of the verse are "I"/"Ego" in goldish/yellowish color and "AM"/"eimi")

When you wrote "So the greek expression 'Ego' eimi,' isn't used at both Exodus 3:14 and John 5:58", you lied, and the proof is in the links provided.

As distasteful and bitter in your mouth as it is that Lord Jesus Christ is eternal God, the Word of God is truth with "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).[/QUOTE\]

As I said and will not change just it because you want me to, I said When writing John 8:58 the apostle was not quoting from the Greek Septuagint Version, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made by Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, Egypt, before the birth of Christ. The Greek Septuagint, he will find that the Septuagint reading of Exodus 3:14 does not use the expression Egó eimí for God’s name, when God says to Moses: “I AM hath sent me unto you.” The Greek Septuagint uses the expression ho Ōn, which means “The Being,” or, “The One who is.” This fact is clearly presented to us in Bagster’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, at Exodus 3:14, which reads: “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING [ho Ōn]; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING [ho Ōn] has sent me to you.” According to Charles Thomson’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, Exodus 3:14 reads: “God spoke to Moses saying, I am The I Am [ho Ōn]. Moreover he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, The I Am [ho Ōn] hath sent me to you.”

Riverwalker · Jun 2, 2021

When He told Adam that there was one thing could not do, Freewill was in full effect.

And the day that he ate of the tree he did die, in the only way that matters. Spiritually

Davy · Jun 3, 2021

Kermos said:
Davy, here is the statement that I wrote:

In fact, man has a bondwill. Man is bonded to the devil while man is in the flesh, or man is bonded to King Jesus while man is in the Holy Spirit (John 8:34-47).

Did you even read the scripture citation? The Word of God recorded in the passage is very clear with declaration like:

"everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin" (John 8:34)

"My word has no place in you" (John 8:37)

"You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature], for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

A slave of sin is bonded to the devil.

You're silly if you think I'm going to believe that garbage that follows...

I know the identity of who tells you that you have a freewill, and it is not the Word of God (John 1:14).

That's basically saying that the 'idea' of freewill is of the devil. That's a stupid ignorant idea. There are many IF conditions given in God's Word regarding whether one follows Him, or doesn't. And believing The Gospel is the main one! It is a CHOICE we each MUST make on our OWN. The fact that He chose some doesn't mean they are the only ones who believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Thus Calvinism relies too much on those who are also 'chosen', and not only 'called', while the majority of Christ's Church are 'called' only, YET STILL CHRIST'S CHURCH!

And it's a simple idea The Lord did with that, because He obviously understands the idea of LEADERSHIP FOR HIS CHURCH ON EARTH! That's why He chose certain ones per His election to serve Him.

John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
KJV

Kermos · Jun 3, 2021

Taken said:
Laws, Statutes, Precepts are directions for a favorable outcome. (Penal Laws are a possible negative consequence for violation)

Freewill is a choice. Laws, Statutes, Precepts do not supersede a man's mind to choose what he desires.

Commandments are imperatives. Commandments are a "do this" or "don't do that". An imperative is not an interogative (a question).

Here is an example of a commandment "do not steal" (Mark 10:19).

Here is an example of a interogative sentence containing a rhetorical quesiton that answers itself, "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear" (Acts 15:10).

Well, look there, Taken, the Apostle Peter said the yoke was too much for them to bear. There is NO freewill in the passage, just their failure to follow the rules set out by God.

One who reaches out to try to take hold and eat of the Bread of Life without God's cleansing (see Esther 2:12 for a picture) and God's permission (see Esther 4:11 for a picture) attempts to steal the glory that Lord Jesus, the Bread of Life, reserves unto Himself authorized by Himself (John 15:16, John 15:19), that is, the choosing unto salvation, such a theiving person is under damnation not salvation.

Now let us circle back to a prior place in scripture that speaks of "take hold and eat", that is, Genesis chapters 1-3.

There is no freewill mentioned with respect to the command, "and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying 'Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying'" (Genesis 2:16-17).

In fact, "when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying'" (Genesis 2:17) is prophecy by God that Adam would eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; therefore, since God said Adam was bound to eat, then Adam had a bound will, not a free will, but a bond will, per the Word of God.

You are in violation of this thread's original post's item 1, so you were forewarned about the command which contains prophecy, yet you persisted to write a post in your bond-will, just like Adam or Eve.

You merely write your thoughts, not scripture in your post.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

As the original post states, Adam was not created with a freewill.

Kermos · Jun 7, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
I'm going to disagree. I believe freewill to be able to make our own choices. I don't think God or anyone else is making our choices for us. I believe we can make our choices.

When you wrote "I believe we can make our choices", then I take that as you saying that you can choose God as well as other people can choose God, so you are disagreeing with the Word of God.

First, there is no "choose" in Genesis 2:16-17, yet you try to add "choose" into the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17.

Second, there is NO place in scripture that states man was given a freewill.

Third, Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, man does not choose Jesus Who is God (John 20:28).

You violate item 2.4. of the original post which means that you think that you join instead of God joining.

Your thoughts are very discordant to the Holy Word of God.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jun 8, 2021

Kermos said:
When you wrote "I believe we can make our choices", then I take that as you saying that you can choose God as well as other people can choose God, so you are disagreeing with the Word of God.

First, there is no "choose" in Genesis 2:16-17, yet you try to add "choose" into the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17.[/Quote\]

So are you saying that Adam or Eve didn't have the ability to disobey this command at Genesis 2:16-17? Isn't it obvious that Eve chose to believe what the serpent said concerning What God had said at Genesis 2:16-17? Eve did choose to believe the lies that the serpent said regarding what God had said at Genesis?
You certainly won't convince me it was God will for Adam and Eve to disobey this command that God had given Adam and Eve at Genesis 2:16-17. But Adam and Eve did disobey this command so are you trying to use John 15:16 to say that it was God choice for Adam and Eve to disobey him. Although I disagree with you on how you use John 15:16 as though man has no choices it seems you're trying to say it was God choice that Adam and Eve were disobedient to him and I know that's not true. So what are you saying regarding this command at Genesis 2:16-17, that it was God will for them to be disobedient to this command?

Kermos · Jun 12, 2021

Stumpmaster said:
Adam sinned because he could.

Adam sinned because Adam was flesh, and the flesh is against the Holy Spirit of God (Galatians 5:17).

Stumpmaster said:
In eternity God foreknew he would.

There is no scripture that states God is outside of time; therefore, God knowing all things, even "the things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10,), is because God is God.

No one can thwart that which God knows will happen (Job 42:2).

This has been covered in this thread in this post.

Stumpmaster said:
God is always just and true
Telling Adam what not to do.

God also told Adam what to do (Genesis 2:16), but it looks like you missed that.

Stumpmaster said:
God did not make Adam disobey
Eat the forbidden fruit He did not say.

"and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" (Genesis 2:16-17)

See The Meaning Of The Hebrew Words אכל(akal)/"eat" and מות(muth)/"die"in Genesis 2:16-17 for details.

Stumpmaster said:
God is always just and true
He tells us all what not to do.

That's the second time your post mentions "not to do", yet you neglected to mention the affirmative.

It sounds like you find it disagreeable that God is in control, even commanding what to do (Joshua 24:15, John 15:16).

Stumpmaster said:
Jas 1:13-15 Let no man say when He is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man: (14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (15) Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

James wrote of believers in Jesus because "God cannot be tempted with evil" indicates that the "man" in "Let no man say when He is tempted, I am tempted of God" is indwelled by the Spirit of God.

Nothing in scripture states Adam was indwelled by the Holy Spirit, so you are trying to misapply James 1:13.

God is always just and true, and Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28).

Adam did not have a free will just like the original post illustrates scripturally, so no man got a free will thereafter, either.

Kermos · Jun 12, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
No I'm actually not going against God word. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil has always represented God rulership.
At Genesis 3:22 when God said Adam and Eve had become like one of us, God was saying that Adam and Eve(mankind) had decided to choose a self determining course of what they decided was good or evil for mankind.

Here is the entirety of Genesis 3:22 "Then YHWH God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'”.

You wrote "At Genesis 3:22 when God said Adam and Eve had become like one of us, God was saying that Adam and Eve(mankind) had decided to choose a self determining course of what they decided was good or evil for mankind.".

You claim to know better than God that which God says!

Your words are "they decided was good or evil for mankind.", so you have man knowing good and evil before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God's Word is "the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil", so God has man not knowing good and evil before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That word "self-determining" does not occur in Genesis 3:22, so you are adding to the Word of God that word "self-determining" which does not exist in Genesis 3:22.

The word "choose", your word, is not in the Word of God ;Genesis 3:22), so you add to the Word of God again.

In yours, "decided", and only in yours.

You must inject you into the Word of God to achieve your free will philosophy, and you lack the authority to inject you into the Word of God.

Such a wicked offense you commit.

You remain in violation of item 2.3. of the scripturally rich original post.

Your words prove that you are against the Word of God.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
You said I added to scripture when you said, "for God did not explicitly state that it was "wong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree." No, You think death to be a good thing then? It's explicitly clear that God didn't want Adam to eat from this tree, which means God didn't want Adam to die, so I'm thinking eating from the forbidden tree was a bad thing. It's called reasoning on the scriptures, try it.

"and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" (Genesis 2:16-17)

See The Meaning Of The Hebrew Words אכל(akal)/"eat" and מות(muth)/"die"in Genesis 2:16-17 for details.

God did not describe eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as wrong or bad.

You are adding "it is wrong to eat of the fruit" in front of "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

You are not "reasoning", rather you are "adding".

You are quite confused because I did not explicitly nor implicitly write death is good.

If you read the original post, then you would have read item 1. which shows that God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and you would have read item 2.2. showing Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world, and God's Plan is wonderful!

Your writing of "It's explicitly clear that God didn't want Adam to eat from this tree" is patently deceptive because it is not "explicitly" in the Genesis 2:16-17 nor Genesis 3:22.

"Explicit" means literally exhibited; on the other hand, an "implication" occurs when a person makes an inference upon a subject matter (implicit). The passages do not literarily literally state that "God didn't want Adam to eat from this tree"; therefore, the word "explicitly" fails literally, yet the word "implies" succeeds literally. For example, "the house for sale shows beautifully" indicates a literal exhibition. Your word "explicitly" is broken vocabulary, and the grammatically correct word is "implicitly".

You convey that "It's implicitly clear that God didn't want Adam to eat from this tree" in scripture, and as soon as you apply your implication, then you are adding to scripture.

Even broader in scope, a person making an implication about scripture is adding text that does not exist in the original.

Since God prophesied about Adam, then God knew Adam would eat before Adam ate; furthermore, no one can thwart that which God knows will happen (Job 42:2).

If God did not want Adam to eat, then Adam could not have thwarted God's purpose (Job 42:2).

Your implication has real problems based on scripture.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
You said I added to scripture again when you said, "So, when you wrote "Adam knew that to obey God was good and to disobey God would be bad" you are adding to scripture, and such action by you carries a deadly punishment." First of all, I could care less about your judgments. Next, I don't believe that when God created Adam or Eve he created mindless idiots that didn't have a clue what God was saying to them. When God said to Adam, to name the animals Adam completely understood God. So when God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree Adam knew not to eat from it and he knew it would be a bad thing because death is a bad thing, not a good thing. So to disobey God would be a bad thing. Why would God give a command that was impossible for Adam to understand. Myself, I don't believe God gives mankind commands that is impossible for us to understand. Adam knew to obey God was a good thing and to disobey God was a bad thing, otherwise why would God give commands to his creation if he knew they would not comprehend them.

You are proof of man's inability while being apart from God to obey God's commands.

Here is a command, "do not add to His words" (Proverbs 30:6).

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

You wrote "mindless idiots", but I don't recall anyone calling Adam and Eve "mindless idiots" in this thread; moreover, earlier in this thread, in
this post, I went into scriptural detail about Adam's communicative ability and Adam's cognitive facility,

You wrote of "judgments".

I would like to bring to the forefront when the Word (John 1:14) spoke of judgment with "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Now, back to when you wrote "Adam knew that to obey God was good and to disobey God would be bad", then you were subtracting the Word as recorded in Genesis 3:22, and such action by you carries a deadly punishment.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jun 13, 2021

The first human pair were not devoid of knowledge of good and bad. God had told them that it would be wrong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree; conversely, to obey God was good. (Genesis 2:16,17) So the particular “knowledge” indicated by the “tree of the knowledge of good and bad” involved a self-determining of what is good and bad. On this, Professor T. J. Conant wrote: “By disregarding the divine will, and deciding and acting on his own, man chose to know for himself what is good and evil.” Yes, Adam and Eve rejected God’s determination and chose to set up their own standard of what was good and what was bad.

With Adam and Eve, their coming to know good and bad involved breaking Jehovah’s command and rejecting his standards. For this they deserved to die and were so sentenced.[/Quote\]

Kermis said:
If you read the original post, then you would have read item 1. which shows that God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and you would have read item 2.2. showing Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world, and God's Plan is wonderful![/Quote\]

So what you're saying is what, that Adam had no choice but to sin and bring death into the world because God prophesied it would happen? If that's what you mean then you're saying sin and death originated from God, because according to you Adam can't choose to obey or disobey. He can only follow God's prophecy of what God said was going to happen.
I know that when God prophesizes that prophecy can't be stopped. So it seems to me that you're saying that God is responsible for sin and death to be in existence because you're saying that the scriptures are saying that God prophesied it would happen.
So you're saying it was, what, God's purpose his will, that sin and death to be in existence? Because you're saying Adam and Eve can't make choices for themselves they only can go along with what you say God prophesied was going to happen.
I don't believe that it was God's purpose or will or plan for sin and death to be in existence. But by you saying God prophesing that Adam would sin you're saying it was God plan, or will or purpose for sin and death to exist, and that's not true.

Curtis · Jun 13, 2021

Kermos said:
Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
AND the firm fact is established
THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)

Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted

Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God

The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities

God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will

Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
WHICH Adam heard from Eve
FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
AND action is the context
SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will

The attribute of "joining" - marriage

Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)

"God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ

"God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)

"God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman

God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients

The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman

The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

You’re claiming Adam sinned by the decree of God, thus making God the author of sin.

Little children are without knowledge of good and evil, yet can understand the concept of parents saying DONT DO THAT.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jun 13, 2021

Curtis said:
You’re claiming Adam sinned by the decree of God, thus making God the author of sin.

Little children are without knowledge of good and evil, yet can understand the concept of parents saying DONT DO THAT.

I agree, God didn't bring sin and death into existence. That was done by an Angel who became a Satan and a Devil along with Adam and Eve who chose to side with this Satan and Devil.

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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