Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

Gregory · Jun 13, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
If my boss says I must work saterday, and I refuse claiming sabbath. This is not being a light to the world. The world looks at you with contempt not with aww,,

Are you worried what the world thinks of you?

Eternally Grateful · Jun 13, 2021

Gregory said:
Are you worried what the world thinks of you?

Paul was concerned about being a light in the world, should I not follow his lead?

Philippians 2:12
Light Bearers
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world

So should i make someone else work my Saturday and use my religion as an excuse, or should I do as god said and obey my master ?

Gregory · Jun 13, 2021

CharismaticLady said:
Romans 7:22 is right in the middle of 14-25, and what it was like keeping the Laws in the Old Covenant with nothing more than our sinful nature. Our nature was at war with the Law. But not so in the New Covenant based on better promises. The sinless nature of Christ is given to us freeing us from the law of sin and death. We can now keep the righteous requirements of the law naturally, not in opposition to the law. They are now part of our very nature because the Spirit makes us born again. This is not something imputed to us with no power to change us. It is a supernatural experience that is powerful and you KNOW it when He comes into you.

If you were at war with the Law of Moses, by and by you will come to be at war with the Law of Christ. It is Christ that gave the Law of Moses and it is Christ that gave the Law of Christ. I hope that is not the case but I fear it can happen.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 13, 2021

Gregory said:
So are you saying that the 10 commandments are no longer to be lived in our modern Christianity?

As part of the MOsaic Law and the reasons they were given in the Mosaic Law? NO NO NO

But as part of living righteously we do have 9 of the 10 that were carried over into the law of Christ.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 13, 2021

Gregory said:
So are you saying we should not live by the 10 commandments as Christians in this modern day?

See my answer to your other similar question above.

the ten commandmnets as Paul said are a ministry of death- why would you want to live under a ministry of condemnation?

Ronald Nolette · Jun 13, 2021

Phoneman777 said:
I think you're confusing his low opinion with the motivation for keeping them, not the keeping of them. Pretty sure he loved the idea of keeping them out of love for Jesus: "For the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

You see, Jesus didn't come to diminish the law, He came to MAGNIFY the law, according to Isaiah 42:21 KJV.

You are misunderstanding what Paul is doing in this passage:

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
King James Version

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

He clearly calls them a ministration of condemnation and He also declares they have been done away with. He did not say they were evil- He said they were a ministry of condemnation and they are done away with.

Jesus fulfilled them thus rendering them moot!

CharismaticLady · Jun 13, 2021

Backlit said:
Got a "thus sayeth the Lord" for that?

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Leviticus 23:
‘The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

Hebrews 4:
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.

2 Corinthians 3:
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Galatians 4:
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Exodus 34:28
28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 31:13 (Sign of Old Covenant)
13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (Sign of New Covenant)
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

New Covenant Commandments:

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

charity · Jun 13, 2021

Phoneman777 said:
I'm sure most will immediately disagree, and rightly so. Jesus' fulfilling of the Spirit of the Law in us does not permit us to break the Letter of the Law.

Yes, the Letter of the Law is a killer, but to whom?
To him who attempts to obtain salvation through observing it - which is impossible, according to Romans 8:7 KJV and Luke 17:10 KJV. But, to the Christian who keeps the Spirit of the Law forbidding lust - and by that will automatically be keeping the Letter of the Law forbidding the act of adultery - to him, it is not a killer, but a "Law of Liberty".

So, if the fact that Jesus is our truth, reward, and faithfulness does not permit us to lie, steal, or fornicate...why do so many claim that since Jesus is their spiritual rest, they may freely break the fourth commandment? To the contrary, if Jesus is indeed our inward Spiritual rest, we will demonstrate that by outward obedience to the fourth commandment, according to Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV. The only rest God ever took was literal rest from His work of creation on the seventh day; the only day upon which He rested, blessed it, and sanctified it. If He is indeed our spiritual rest, we ought to evidence that by literally resting on the seventh day Sabbath day. Need I remind anyone, it's not the fourth "suggestion", it's the Fourth Commandment, right or wrong?

Hello @Phoneman777,

I did not realise that this thread with such a horrible subject heading:- 'Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate? was essentially about the keeping of the fourth commandment:-

'Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'
(Exo 20:8)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

CharismaticLady · Jun 13, 2021

Gregory said:
If you were at war with the Law of Moses, by and by you will come to be at war with the Law of Christ. It is Christ that gave the Law of Moses and it is Christ that gave the Law of Christ. I hope that is not the case but I fear it can happen.

You don't understand. The eternal law that Christ has put in our hearts covers all of the Old Covenant Ten Commandments. It is based on "Love God with all your strength, mind and spirit, and your neighbor as yourself.

What is the difference? The difference is the Ten Commandments had to be kept by the LETTER through will-power of a sinful nature. And the eternal laws of Jesus 1 John 3:23 are kept by the SPIRIT with a lawlessly sin-free born again nature.

Now see if you can understand the difference. We MUST be born again, not just follow rules by rote.

Curtis · Jun 13, 2021

Gregory said:
So do you think we no longer need to worry about living the 10 Commandmens in our time?

That’s exactly right.

The law of Christ aka the law of love aka the two love commands replaced the Decalogue.

The ten commands are such an integral part of the 613 statutes and commands and ordinances in the Law of Moses, that they are even called in scripture, “the covenant written on two tables of stone”, and the Bible is very clear that the old covenant has ended, replaced by a better covenant, founded on better promises.

The reason people are so against admitting that the two love commands replaced the letter that kills, (the Decalogue), is that there is no sabbath day commandment in them.

Curtis · Jun 13, 2021

charity said:
Hello @Phoneman777,

I did not realise that this thread with such a horrible subject heading:- 'Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate? was essentially about the keeping of the fourth commandment:-

'Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'
(Exo 20:8)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

And under the same law of Moses that the Decalogue is an integral part of, it orders you to stone to death everyone who breaks the sabbath command, stone to death adulterers, stone to death murderers, and stone to death children who don’t honor their mother and father.

That same law of Moses says burnt offerings from animal sacrifice is required during each sabbath day observance.

That same law of Moses says you can’t have any fire in your habitation on the sabbath, meaning no furnace or hot water heater can be used that day, even in Siberia or the Arctic.

No fire on the sabbath works fine in the hot desert climate that Israel was in when they, and no one else, were given the sabbath day command after their Exodus from Egypt, but doesn’t work for other nations with cold climate, if they’re trying to keep an ended covenant that doesn’t apply to them in the first place.

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

kcnalp said:
So Michael is your savior. Where is Michael called our Savior in the Bible?

Michael/Jesus are the same being: the Second Person in the Divine Trinity.

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

MatthewG said:
Hello; @Phoneman777

I posted this answer to another forum site.

I believe that as scriptures indicate in becoming dead to sin; though sin can come up in a Christians walk.

Romans 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

It is for sure that none of us will be able to perfect ourselves and become like Christ Jesus; and be sinless for as human beings we are already tainted with Sin; though it has been paid for by Christ; when we come to the knowledge of the truth of what God had provided for us and walk and seek after God in spirit and in truth. Christians are made new creations in Christ Jesus dying to the old man and walking in the newness of life with Christ Jesus with-in them. Worshiping God in spirit and in truth even though we do fail sometimes in our Love for God; and Love For Others. Which keeps us humble and seeking after God and his goodness.

One inspired writer wrote that "be ye holy, for I am holy" means we are to be holy "in our sphere" even as He is holy "in His sphere".

I preached that recently to a congregation and told them it means this: A first grade student can get an "A" on his test and a PhD student can get an "A" on his test, and the one does not diminish from the other - they are BOTH regarded as exceptional: the one in his "sphere" and the other in his "sphere".

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

Curtis said:
The ten commands don’t exist in a vacuum- they were given as part of the 613 statutes and commands of the law of Moses- and all of it has to be kept down to the least jot and tittle, which includes the penalty for breaking them.

Paul wrote about the Decalogue in 2 Corinthians 3, wherein we find that the Ten Commands are: the ministration of DEATH, the letter which KILLS, and the ministration of CONDEMNATION, that has been done away - which is contrasted with the new covenant (testament) of the spirit, that gives LIFE.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the NEW testament; not of the letter, but of the SPIRIT : for the letter KILLETH , but the spirit giveth life.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration OF DEATH written andengraven in stones (The Ten Commandments) was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glorywas to be DONE AWAY:

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation beglory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

2Co 3:11 For if that which is DONE AWAY wasglorious, much more that which remaineth isglorious.

The reason the Ten commands kills, brings death, and condemnation, and has been done away, is due to the fact that the penalty under the law for breaking any of the Ten, was being put to death by stoning.

The penalty for homicide - being put to death by stoning:

Exo 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

The penalty for not honoring your mother and father: put to death by stoning:

Lev 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put todeath: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall beupon him.

The penalty for adultery: put to death by stoning:

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with anotherman's wife, even hethat committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

The penalty for breaking the sabbath by doing any work, such as picking up sticks for kindling: put to death by stoning:

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it isholy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth anywork therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

If the Ten Commands are still in effect, the penalty for breaking them is still in effect, thus those who insist on keeping the ended covenant that contained the Ten Commands, are breaking the law themselves, by not stoning to death those who break the commands.

You can't have one without the other.

Imagine you were doing a ride along with a police officer, and you see that he ignores traffic law violations: speeding, running red lights, reckless driving, drunk driving, etc.

During the conversation you have with the officer, he says, "yes, I believe in the traffic laws. I keep those laws, myself - I just don't enforce them".

Sabbath day keepers, and Ten Commandment keepers are saying, those commands are still in effect and we keep them, but we don't enforce the law, as is required BY the law.

The ten commands ended when the old covenant ended, because the ten are called “the covenant on two tables of stone” in scripture - thus when the old covenant ended, the ten commands ended with it - including the fourth command.

Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, thatthe LORD gave me the two tables of stone, eventhe tables of the covenant.

Invariably some people will claim that the new covenant is simply the old covenant restated, but that argument won’t hold water.

Scripture says the new covenant is a BETTER covenant, founded on BETTER PROMISES - not the old one recycled.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a BETTER covenant, which was established upon better promises.

And says if the old one was faultless, there’d be no need for a new covenant.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenanthad been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

God rested on the seventh day, but did not command anyone else to keep a seventh day sabbath at that time.

You won’t find the word sabbath anywhere in Genesis, nor find Abraham or anyone else in Genesis resting on the 7th day - because there was no such command until God gave it to Israel as a covenant sign of His freeing them from slavery in Egypt, after their Exodus.

Moses said NO ONE had the law the law God gave to Israel, until God gave it to him on Mount Sinai:

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT this covenant with our fathers, but with US evenus, who areall of us here alive THIS day.

And God says why and to who, He first gave the command to keep the 7th day:

Deu 5:15 And REMEMBER that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and tha the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE the LORD thy God commanded THEE to keep the sabbath day.

The sabbath day command was given only to Israel as a covenant sign and memorial of their being set free from slavery in Egypt.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths YE shall keep: for itisa SIGN between ME and YOU throughout YOUR generations; that yemay know that I amthe LORD that doth sanctify YOU.

The Ten Commandments may not exist in a vacuum, but they certainly don't exist alongside the Mosaic Law because the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14-16 KJV) while the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7-8 KJV).

Now, we can show you what God says constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy in Exodus 20:8-11 KJV. Can you show us where He wrote anything with His finger in addition to that, because all those "proof" texts you gave for sabbath keeping were nailed to the Cross, right or wrong?

friend of · Jun 13, 2021

Phoneman777 said:
Michael/Jesus are the same being: the Second Person in the Divine Trinity.

Michael is an angel dude. Read Hebrews 1.

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

CharismaticLady said:
The letter of the law was for the Old Covenant.

It's for the NC, too. "I will write My laws in their minds and on there hearts...not in tables of stone, but in the fleshly tables of the heart." (Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV; 2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV) Same law, previously written in stone, but now in our heart.

Tell me, is it possible to keep the Spirit of the Law, while breaking the Letter of the Law? Let's hang some meat on that theological skeleton: Is it possible to ejaculate in our neighbor's wife without "lusting" after her? Of course, if we're keeping the Spirit of the Law, we'll by default be keeping the Letter of the Law.

Jesus came to "magnify the Law and make it honorable (make possible for us to "honor", or "keep" it)" (Isaiah 42:21 KJV) and doing away with the Ten Commandments is not a magnification of them, but destruction of them, something Jesus Himself said He came not to do.

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Well no one is fighting against keeping them. So your point is mute

"He that is not with Me is against Me"...if we're not decidedly on the side of Jesus and His Ten Commandments, we're by default fighting against Him.

Refuse to keep any one of the Ten Commandments and we're guilty of all, according to James...which brings us to the seventh day Sabbath issue....

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

friend of said:
Michael is an angel dude. Read Hebrews 1.

I believe the word you're looking for is "archangel" which means "ruler of the angels", which Ruler Jesus is. BTW, no mention of "Michael" or "Archangel" in Hebrews 1.

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Who is “like” God

and who “IS” God are two different things

but good to know what you think

Get in your bomb shelter, 'cause you're logic is ground ZERO for a 10 Megaton TRUTH bomb:

Daniel KJV:
7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man (Jesus) came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Phoneman777 · Jun 13, 2021

post said:
Jude 1:9 pretty thoroughly blows that notion up tho.
Jesus is the Lord, but Michael defers to the Lord.

c.f. Judges 13:18, where His name, appearing as The Angel of the LORD, is "Wonderful" ((see also Isaiah 9:6)) - and Judges 13:19-20 also establishes that He Himself is the LORD.

btw "Mikha'el" means 'who is like God?' -- the word "mi" is specifically an interrogative pronoun, Strong's 4310.

Not you! LOL Ok, here we go:

Zechariah KJV:
3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

When the Lord rebukes Satan, He does it in the name of the Lord. Michael the Archangel is the Second Person in the Godhead who rebukes Satan in the name of the Lord, in Jude 9 KJV.

BTW, this which you provided proves my point: the OT "Angel of the Lord" is Christ manifesting Himself as an angel - the Ruler of Angels aka Michael - before He manifested as human and took the name Jesus:

c.f. Judges 13:18, where His name, appearing as The Angel of the LORD, is "Wonderful" ((see also Isaiah 9:6 )) - and Judges 13:19-20 also establishes that He Himself is the LORD.

Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

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