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theefaith

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In scriptures what you can actually find is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Tong
R3663
Misunderstanding
Acts 2:38 the command to be baptized is in the name of Jesus not the baptism itself
If you are going to honor the name of Jesus then obey Matt 28:19
 

Tong2020

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You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!
So, I would guess Jesus Christ isn’t your personal Lord and Savior.

There is also no such verse in the Bible that says that God is a triune God or is that in your bible that you believe it? I am guessing.
There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold
I read nothing in scriptures about succession.

Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
Apparently that is a man made doctrine as I don’t read anything like that in scriptures.

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
I can see that you were made to believe that a promise is a sacrament. Perhaps you ought to rethink that.

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation
When was it ever taught by the apostles that the church is necessary for salvation?

Tong
R3664
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
If you have, how did you obtain mercy?
Matt 5 blessed are the merciful, they shall obtain mercy

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Lord’s Prayer forgive us as we forgive

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Are you saying that because you were merciful that God had mercy on you and gave His only begotten Son to die for you?

Tong
R3665
 

Tong2020

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Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Is your salvation a thing you still hope for?

Tong
R3666
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Read Romans 4:1-8.
Those verses refer to works alone
Not faith and works thru grace in christ
:(

Romans 4:1What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8Blessed is the man to whom theLord shall not impute sin.”


What do you read that God accounted for righteousness? Is it faith? Is it works? Is it faith and works?

Tong
R3667
 

theefaith

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So, I would guess Jesus Christ isn’t your personal Lord and Savior. (Jude 1:3 common salvation communion of saints, one new covenant, not just you and Jesus)

There is also no such verse in the Bible that says that God is a triune God or is that in your bible that you believe it? I am guessing.
I read nothing in scriptures about succession.
(See below)

Apparently that is a man made doctrine as I don’t read anything like that in scriptures.
(Divine revelation not scripture alone)

I can see that you were made to believe that a promise is a sacrament. Perhaps you ought to rethink that.
(A promise or sacred oath from God is a sacrament according to the dictionary)

When was it ever taught by the apostles that the church is necessary for salvation?
(Acts 2;42)

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Tong
R3664
 

theefaith

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Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments




Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Only the church has authority from Christ to define the truth and teach!
Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

Successors of Jesus Christ!

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the age, so the successors must remain until the end of the age) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)


Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Isa 22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
 

theefaith

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:(

Romans 4:1What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8Blessed is the man to whom theLord shall not impute sin.”


What do you read that God accounted for righteousness? Is it faith? Is it works? Is it faith and works?

Tong
R3667

faith and works (prayer fasting alms Christian virtues) thru grace in Christ by baptism and the sacraments
 

Tong2020

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Jn 10:16 His church Matt 16:18 eternal Lk 1/32-23
Are you referring to the church that do not have or call Peter “pope”?

Also, are you referring to the church who believes in the Jesus who said “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”?

Tong
R3668
 

theefaith

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Are you referring to the church that do not have or call Peter “pope”?

Also, are you referring to the church who believes in the Jesus who said “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”?

Tong
R3668

Call no man father


Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.


Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Isa 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!


Eph 3: 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


———-


Eph. 3:14-15 – every family in heaven and on earth is named from the “Father.” We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1, 1 John 2:13 – elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, “Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?”

1 Cor. 4:17 – Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful “child” in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 – Paul describes his role as parent over his “children” the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 – Paul calls Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a “father.”

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders’ ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 – Paul calls Timothy his true “child” in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 – Paul calls Titus his true “child” in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 – Paul says he has become the “father” of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 – emphasizes our earthly “fathers.” But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 – Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his “son.”

1 John 2:1,1 John 2:13,14 – John calls the elders of the Church “fathers.”
 

Taken

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Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!
Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.

A man can NOT become Changed WITHOUT FAITH.

It appears YOU are preaching "WORKS" of a man ARE REQUIRED, for Salvation.

Scripture notifies you HOW TO, "gain" Gods Gift of Faith.

Scripture notifies you out of Jesus' Mouth, it is Gods Works that is paramount.

John 6:
29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 

Tong2020

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Christ and his church are one -acts 9:4
The church is an extension of Christ in the whole world and all ages

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Acts 2:42
Acts 8

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Are you suggesting that you together with those who belong to your church are Christ? While it could be said that the church and Christ are one, the church is not Christ and Christ is not the church.

There is nothing I read in scriptures that teach what you teach, that the church is necessary for salvation. Jesus is.

A lot of scriptures, sadly misused.

Tong
R3669
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
That’s a lot of preaching about your church, the apostles, and their alleged successors. However, the first century church seems to have not done so. What they went preaching is Jesus Christ.
Of course it is His church
He alone is savior

but the apostles and their successors taught with the authority of Christ
Why are you preaching the church when the apostles did not, who went out preaching Jesus Christ?

And can you show us in your Bible which talks about succession to the apostles?

Tong
R3670
 

Taken

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Call no man father


Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

God Appointed "ONE" man to be acknowledge as an Earthly Father of many Earthly NATIONS. Nations are Governing Entities OVER men. Nations are NOT men.

Calling an earthly man "FATHER" IS addressing actually speaking TO THAT MAN
With the TITLE "FATHER", which Scripture expressly notified men to AVOID.

Speaking ABOUT men as "fathers", IS NOT addressing actually speaking to the man.

Addressing / speaking TO a Priest / Cleric with the Title Father IS "calling" that man "Father". <---- that IS a protocal established BY MAN.... and expressly prohibited by God.

But then... For every action a man does in defiance of God, that individual man SHALL bear the burden (consequence) for that ACT.

Gal 6:
[5] For every man shall bear his own burden.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
That kind of reasoning is faulty. No man lives a perfectly sinless life like Jesus, at least not in this age. Not even the successors you claim of the apostles. Your line of reasoning would unnecessarily have Jesus accountable for their wrongs and wrong doings.

While Christ is in the Christian, the Christian is not Christ.
not personal no impeccable we are referring to their teaching and doctrine

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
Yes their teaching. Such as that the teaching that the virgin Mary is the mother of God. None of the apostles taught that.

This brings to mind, the Bereans, who were of noble character, for they go to scriptures and examine what is preached to them, even that preached personally to them by the apostle Paul.

Tong
R3671
 

Taken

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Why are you preaching the church when the apostles did not, who went out preaching Jesus Christ?

And can you show us in your Bible which talks about succession to the apostles?

Tong
R3670

Hi Tong.
Exactly correct. It is wholly about becoming YOKED with Jesus Christ, in the manner, way, of Gods own Design.
"THE CHURCH", is expressly Christ's Church, which is expressly Spiritual, established, by the Lord God Himself.
Man has "MADE" the Church exalted Stick, wood, stone and mortar... gave it a name and preach it is the ONE and ONLY Church acceptable to Christ.
Christ Jesus' Church is NOT made with mens hands. Members of Christ Jesus' Church are Born Again men added day by day to Christ's Spiritual Church.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Well you got mt.24:13 say not what it means.
this also means something else? Faith alone perhaps

rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

This too?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Irrelevant to my point still. Does not take away that you got Mt.24:13 say what it means.

Regarding Rom.8:24, do you still hope for your salvation?

Regarding Romans 13:11, are you suggesting that that verse speaks of the end as their end of days or their death?

Tong
R3673