No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

David H. said:

Example of this would be Micah 5. In The course of one paragraph we go from the messiah being born in Bethlehem and suffering to him ruling with and rising up against the Assyrian, to the battle of Armageddon. The only indication of time between these events is verse 3 which is foretelling the church age (The woman travailing). In hindsight, we know this is the mystery of the church age and the Gospel to the gentiles, But from the passage as read none expected it would last 2000 years.

I Mentioned Joel 2 which was quoted by the apostles at pentecost, but the part about the latter rain was not included. Again, we had this discussion earlier on this forum about this.

Daniel 11, spans from near fulfilment to Israel to end times Antichrist rule.

The Multiple passages about the Abomination of desolation, some point to Antiochus Epiphanes, some point to 70Ad, Some point to the end time abomination, while some point to all three, Jesus Himself says in a parenthesis "(whoso readeth, let him understand"



So Here we see how you yourself explain the contradictions your pretrib views build into Revelation, and that is by the insertion of "parenthetical passages". You see you see some of these discrepancies so you have to add to Revelation what is not specified there, But the thing is, rightly understood there is no need for these parenthesis to be added. consider what John said about adding to the prophecy of this book, and I think you may see how adding this is violating what John warned about. (Revelation 22:18) As I said at the outset, I agree with pre tribbers on parts of Revelation 12 for example being a jump back in time, but where you see a parenthesis i see a new vision beginning, right after the vision of the trumpets ends the vision of the "characters" begins, with Christ Jesus being the first and foremost character. The two women being Israel (flees into the wilderness) and the church (flies into the wilderness) One speaks of 70 ad, the other of the end of the church age, all in one chapter. Then we are introduced to the Antichrist, and to the false prophet etc.

Point being, I do not have to add parenthesis as they are not required, but rather explained by the overlap of visions. When You do this, one vision adds depth of understanding to the next vision and so forth and you gain a greater picture of the events occurring, so for example the fourth trumpet adds process to the sixth seal, meaning it is not just an instant event but one that distresses the nations and causes the men's hearts to fail them as Luke's account of this explains.

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Very deep indeed, my brother. I never made this connection with the two mentions of the woman walking and later flying in the same passage. Thank you for adding some clarity to the vision. Have you studied Zechariah? There is a passage with a vision that I'm not understanding, at least not fully, but I've understood it to be a parallel passage of sorts to the Lord's parables about the kingdom of heaven being like a mustard seed, fish caught up in a net, and measures of meal with leaven.
6 So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket that is going forth.”
He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; 8 then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. Zechariah 5:6-9
I've struggled with this passage for a long time and so looked for differences between translations as I've found translational problems sometimes critical to arriving at truth.
The only significant difference that I found was in the word "basket", translated as "ephah" in the original KJV, but as basket in the NKJV. Young's literal translation also uses "ephah." Now basket would seem to be a reasonable word for ephah, because an ephah is a container used to measure wheat or other grain, and I don't know if the Hebrew has another word for a large container. But with regard to the passage in Zechariah, there is nothing that says that the ephah isn't literally filled with wheat or grain with wickedness sitting among the grain, and even if the ephah had no grain in it, it is still a measure for grain.
The continuation of the passage also says that the basket is placed in Shinar, the location of the tower of Babel.
I'm unsure of my understanding, but I also see this as related to the judgment of Babylon and the desolate places given for the habitation of unclean creatures as in:
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! Revelation 18:2 (I've found a previous word study on " bird" very helpful to my understanding as well.)
I could be lost in the woods with this one, so I'm asking your opinion. Wherever the church is, there is also the presence of the adversary within that visible body, or at least that fallen nature of the flesh. We also have parallel verses in Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28 in the context of the judgment which vary by one word "body" in one, "corpse" in the other. In both passages the "eagles" gather and though eagles are unclean birds of prey, the literal translation is actually "vultures" rather than eagles and gives the picture of a dead or dying body with carrion feeders gathering.

Zechariah’s barrel
In Zechariah 5:1-11, the prophet tells us about a large barrel shaped object that flies in our atmosphere and is situated on the place prepared for it, in the land of Shinar.

It is referred to as a curse, that will sweep away every criminal and false religion worshipper as well as demolish their houses.

This mysterious object, or objects, has a lead cover and from their size and effects, we can discern they are nuclear missiles. Shinar is the ancient name for the fertile area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which includes Elam; all now part of Iran.

So, right now, in our day, we have this prophecy coming true. Iran has the technology to build these weapons and the motivation to use them against Israel.


But we who study the Prophetic Word, know the Lord will not allow this to happen and He will destroy the chief weapon of their strength. Jeremiah 49:35

Deuteronomy 32:34-35 & 43 I have sealed up in My storehouse, punishment against My enemies, till the Day of vengeance and wrath, at the moment their foot slips. [make a mistake] For the Day of their downfall is near, their doom is fast approaching. the Lord will punish those who hate Him and cleanse His peoples Land.

Isaiah 2:21 On that Day, the Lord will arise and strike the world with terror.

Jeremiah 4:20 Crash follow crash, for the whole land goes down in ruin.

Isaiah 66:6 The noise and distress that you hear, is the Lord dealing retribution to His foes. Revelation 6:12-17

Psalms 110:1-6 In glorious majesty He judges the nations, shattering heads throughout the wide earth. Luke 21:35


Destruction by fire:
Isaiah 30:26a The sun will shine 7 times brighter...A huge Coronal Mass Ejection.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all arrogant evildoers will be as stubble, they will be destroyed in a fiery blaze. 2 Peter 3:7

Isaiah 29:5-6 Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come, storms, earthquakes and a flame of devouring fire. Zephaniah 3:8

Isaiah 66:16 The Lord will judge with fire and sword, many will be slain by Him.

Ezekiel 21:28 A sword of slaughter will flash like lightening. Matthew 24:29

Isaiah 10:17-19 Sudden destruction. As sudden as someone falling in a fit.

Psalms 21:8-9 Your hand will reach all Your enemies, all who hate You. In Your anger, You will engulf them as in a fiery furnace and fire will consume them.


Destroyed at the moment of attack
Amos 5:9 He makes destruction flash forth against the mighty.

Habakkuk 3:14 You pierce their leaders with Your arrows, they are swept away by a whirlwind as they open their jaws to secretly devour their victims.

Psalms 37:12-15 The wicked have drawn their swords and strung their bows, to slaughter the righteous. Their weapons will cut their own hearts and their bows will be shattered.

Psalms 7:12-16 The enemy prepares to attack, he has conceived mischief and given birth to lies. He has dug a deep pit, but he himself will fall into it.

Psalms 9:15-17 The wicked are trapped in their own devices. The wicked depart to Sheol, all the nations who are heedless of the Lord.

The scenario:
Nuclear tipped missiles are prepared for launching. At the moment the firing button is pressed, the Electro Magnetic Pulse of a massive explosion on the sun will strike the area. The highly charged particles will cause the bombs and the missiles to explode on the ground. Psalms 11:4-6, Ezekiel 7:14

michaelvpardo said:

Very deep indeed, my brother. I never made this connection with the two mentions of the woman walking and later flying in the same passage. Thank you for adding some clarity to the vision. Have you studied Zechariah? There is a passage with a vision that I'm not understanding, at least not fully, but I've understood it to be a parallel passage of sorts to the Lord's parables about the kingdom of heaven being like a mustard seed, fish caught up in a net, and measures of meal with leaven.
6 So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket that is going forth.”
He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; 8 then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. Zechariah 5:6-9
I've struggled with this passage for a long time and so looked for differences between translations as I've found translational problems sometimes critical to arriving at truth.
The only significant difference that I found was in the word "basket", translated as "ephah" in the original KJV, but as basket in the NKJV. Young's literal translation also uses "ephah." Now basket would seem to be a reasonable word for ephah, because an ephah is a container used to measure wheat or other grain, and I don't know if the Hebrew has another word for a large container. But with regard to the passage in Zechariah, there is nothing that says that the ephah isn't literally filled with wheat or grain with wickedness sitting among the grain, and even if the ephah had no grain in it, it is still a measure for grain.
The continuation of the passage also says that the basket is placed in Shinar, the location of the tower of Babel.
I'm unsure of my understanding, but I also see this as related to the judgment of Babylon and the desolate places given for the habitation of unclean creatures as in:
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! Revelation 18:2 (I've found a previous word study on " bird" very helpful to my understanding as well.)
I could be lost in the woods with this one, so I'm asking your opinion. Wherever the church is, there is also the presence of the adversary within that visible body, or at least that fallen nature of the flesh. We also have parallel verses in Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28 in the context of the judgment which vary by one word "body" in one, "corpse" in the other. In both passages the "eagles" gather and though eagles are unclean birds of prey, the literal translation is actually "vultures" rather than eagles and gives the picture of a dead or dying body with carrion feeders gathering.

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Very good question, and I would have to pray and study more to give a "solid" answer.

Here are a couple of points that may help you from where I am at with my study of Revelation.... Of the two women, there is a judgment, (Rapture, wheat and tares etc.) after the time in the wilderness, Of those that do not pass, the false religious system of all denominations will emerge from the wilderness riding on the beast from the bottomless pit as the harlot, Namely Azazel, the chief of the fallen angels, this I believe will be their false hope so to speak, the strong delusion that they will follow. The Beast that ascends from the bottomless pit is not the antichrist, But the fourth beast of Revelation. (1 Dragon, 2 Beast, 3 False Prophet, and 4 The beast from the bottomless pit)

So What we have is two women going into the wilderness, with one emerging riding on the beast seeking earthly power. When this beast has done what God ordained along with the ten kings that rule with him to do, to execute judgment on the harlot and her daughters, Then this beast will be destroyed as well, Hence the double "fallen, fallen is Babylon", Once, when the Antichrist beast Man of sin was destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming, and the Latter when this beast has judged the harlot along with his ten kings.

As You know, Shinar is the Land of Babylon, and all false religions are based on the Babylonian false religion of Semiramis and Tammuz worship, aka the queen of heaven and her son. This having even infiltrated the churches particularly Catholic ones in the form of Mary worship, and calling her the queen of heaven etc. All the false religions of the world have this male and female deity duality whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc. Concepts such as the "divine Feminine" Or calling the Holy Ghost a "she" have infiltrated many Charismatic circles as well. This is nothing more than the women "wickedness". The "house" being prepared for her, is her prison.

More about the beast from the bottomless pit, He emerges from the bottomless pit and kills the two witnesses, Not the Antichrist as many presume. The pit not being opened until the fifth trumpet (Revelation 9:1) He is a fallen angel because he is locked in Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4). It is also these fallen Angels which the saints will Judge (1 Corinthians 6:3) which will occur during these final end time battles. If You have ever read the book of Enoch it discusses this in more detail, But am just trying to stay in the parameters of the 66 Book canon we have. Azazel as the name of the chief of the fallen angels comes from the book of Enoch, But it is also used of the place in the wilderness to whom the "scapegoat" was released East of Jerusalem to carry away the sins of Israel during Yom Kippur. So It is a Biblical word for scapegoat. I suspect this is what woman in the basket represents, The total removal of sin from the people.

I Will get back when I study a bit more, hope this helps your study.

David H. said:

Very good question, and I would have to pray and study more to give a "solid" answer.

Here are a couple of points that may help you from where I am at with my study of Revelation.... Of the two women, there is a judgment, (Rapture, wheat and tares etc.) after the time in the wilderness, Of those that do not pass, the false religious system of all denominations will emerge from the wilderness riding on the beast from the bottomless pit as the harlot, Namely Azazel, the chief of the fallen angels, this I believe will be their false hope so to speak, the strong delusion that they will follow. The Beast that ascends from the bottomless pit is not the antichrist, But the fourth beast of Revelation. (1 Dragon, 2 Beast, 3 False Prophet, and 4 The beast from the bottomless pit)

So What we have is two women going into the wilderness, with one emerging riding on the beast seeking earthly power. When this beast has done what God ordained along with the ten kings that rule with him to do, to execute judgment on the harlot and her daughters, Then this beast will be destroyed as well, Hence the double "fallen, fallen is Babylon", Once, when the Antichrist beast Man of sin was destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming, and the Latter when this beast has judged the harlot along with his ten kings.

As You know, Shinar is the Land of Babylon, and all false religions are based on the Babylonian false religion of Semiramis and Tammuz worship, aka the queen of heaven and her son. This having even infiltrated the churches particularly Catholic ones in the form of Mary worship, and calling her the queen of heaven etc. All the false religions of the world have this male and female deity duality whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc. Concepts such as the "divine Feminine" Or calling the Holy Ghost a "she" have infiltrated many Charismatic circles as well. This is nothing more than the women "wickedness". The "house" being prepared for her, is her prison.

More about the beast from the bottomless pit, He emerges from the bottomless pit and kills the two witnesses, Not the Antichrist as many presume. The pit not being opened until the fifth trumpet (Revelation 9:1) He is a fallen angel because he is locked in Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4). It is also these fallen Angels which the saints will Judge (1 Corinthians 6:3) which will occur during these final end time battles. If You have ever read the book of Enoch it discusses this in more detail, But am just trying to stay in the parameters of the 66 Book canon we have. Azazel as the name of the chief of the fallen angels comes from the book of Enoch, But it is also used of the place in the wilderness to whom the "scapegoat" was released East of Jerusalem to carry away the sins of Israel during Yom Kippur. So It is a Biblical word for scapegoat. I suspect this is what woman in the basket represents, The total removal of sin from the people.

I Will get back when I study a bit more, hope this helps your study.

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Thank you so much brother. The primary reason for "mining" out the source and implications of the everlasting gospel is to bring down the heavenly host to judgment and placing the last of His enemies on the ground of judgment, and under His feet. I'm talking greater works indeed.

Keraz said:

Zechariah’s barrel
In Zechariah 5:1-11, the prophet tells us about a large barrel shaped object that flies in our atmosphere and is situated on the place prepared for it, in the land of Shinar.

It is referred to as a curse, that will sweep away every criminal and false religion worshipper as well as demolish their houses.

This mysterious object, or objects, has a lead cover and from their size and effects, we can discern they are nuclear missiles. Shinar is the ancient name for the fertile area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which includes Elam; all now part of Iran.

So, right now, in our day, we have this prophecy coming true. Iran has the technology to build these weapons and the motivation to use them against Israel.


But we who study the Prophetic Word, know the Lord will not allow this to happen and He will destroy the chief weapon of their strength. Jeremiah 49:35

Deuteronomy 32:34-35 & 43 I have sealed up in My storehouse, punishment against My enemies, till the Day of vengeance and wrath, at the moment their foot slips. [make a mistake] For the Day of their downfall is near, their doom is fast approaching. the Lord will punish those who hate Him and cleanse His peoples Land.

Isaiah 2:21 On that Day, the Lord will arise and strike the world with terror.

Jeremiah 4:20 Crash follow crash, for the whole land goes down in ruin.

Isaiah 66:6 The noise and distress that you hear, is the Lord dealing retribution to His foes. Revelation 6:12-17

Psalms 110:1-6 In glorious majesty He judges the nations, shattering heads throughout the wide earth. Luke 21:35


Destruction by fire:
Isaiah 30:26a The sun will shine 7 times brighter...A huge Coronal Mass Ejection.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all arrogant evildoers will be as stubble, they will be destroyed in a fiery blaze. 2 Peter 3:7

Isaiah 29:5-6 Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come, storms, earthquakes and a flame of devouring fire. Zephaniah 3:8

Isaiah 66:16 The Lord will judge with fire and sword, many will be slain by Him.

Ezekiel 21:28 A sword of slaughter will flash like lightening. Matthew 24:29

Isaiah 10:17-19 Sudden destruction. As sudden as someone falling in a fit.

Psalms 21:8-9 Your hand will reach all Your enemies, all who hate You. In Your anger, You will engulf them as in a fiery furnace and fire will consume them.


Destroyed at the moment of attack
Amos 5:9 He makes destruction flash forth against the mighty.

Habakkuk 3:14 You pierce their leaders with Your arrows, they are swept away by a whirlwind as they open their jaws to secretly devour their victims.

Psalms 37:12-15 The wicked have drawn their swords and strung their bows, to slaughter the righteous. Their weapons will cut their own hearts and their bows will be shattered.

Psalms 7:12-16 The enemy prepares to attack, he has conceived mischief and given birth to lies. He has dug a deep pit, but he himself will fall into it.

Psalms 9:15-17 The wicked are trapped in their own devices. The wicked depart to Sheol, all the nations who are heedless of the Lord.

The scenario:
Nuclear tipped missiles are prepared for launching. At the moment the firing button is pressed, the Electro Magnetic Pulse of a massive explosion on the sun will strike the area. The highly charged particles will cause the bombs and the missiles to explode on the ground. Psalms 11:4-6, Ezekiel 7:14

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Hello brother. I know that you're an excellent scholar, but much of your statements seem like carnal interpretations of the prophetic rather than spiritual ones. This is why I don't like dogmatism in scriptural interpretation.
The word of God is a two edged sword and how we handle it reveals where our hearts are. Every passage about judgment has 2 potential correct interpretations, a physical one and a spiritual one. The first is dependent upon the carnal mind, and the latter on the mind of Christ. We can only preach or teach according to our understanding and pray that we don't abuse His word. Personally, I would rather err on the side of mercy and grace, than on the side of judgment and condemnation.
Thank you so much for your understanding and may our Lord keep you close and bless you in His grace with power and righteous judgment. Amen

marks said:

We must place?

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

In saying Christ Jesus is unto us sanctification, this says to me something a little different. We work out - katergadzomai - what God is working in - ergon. We cooperate with His lead.

But I seriously believe God uses each of us for His kingdom, and in the ways which suit Him, the times that suit Him. And that we will all remain "in process" as long as we are in this earthy life, but this doesn't mean God won't use us.

We may not be as effective if we are still too wrapped up in ourselves, as that consumes our time and energy and resources better spent on others.

I see our lives as a process where we become more and more in the mind of Christ, less and less in the mind of the flesh. Walking in the Spirit, or, which is the same thing to me as thinking in the mind of Christ. Thinking according to the truth of the Bible instead of what I see or think on my own. Only according to what the Bible says.

I order my thoughts according to the plainly stated teachings of the Bible. God is love, and loves us. Sin is removed in Christ and we have eternal life in Him. Everything in life is for my good, given by my loving all powerful Creator. I'm here because it's what He wants. I'm reconciled to Him because it's what He wants, and I want it too.

So now I'm His begotten child, and I share His nature, in righteousness, my desire is for Him, to be like Him, to be pleasing to Him. In trusting that He has freed me from sin I can walk overcoming sin. I can walk in love toward everyone. I can spend my days living each moment as a special thing, a gift-moment of basking in the certainty of His love.

Thoughts are what drive feelings, and if these are your thoughts, the feelings are joy, and peace, and kindliness, gentleness. Confidence, and joyful expectation.

For myself, I still have the tendency to drift from this into the mind of the flesh. We need diligence in our minds to make sure we are discerning those fleshy thoughts. They come in our own voice, our own minds, but they are not our thoughts. The flesh deceives us with it's lusts. We think they are our own.

But as we walk in the Spirit, we do not do the works of the flesh, we do the works before ordained that we should walk in them. Though we fall from that path, I believe God is both patient and intent with us. I like that hymn, "Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light". He moves neither too fast nor too slow, but knows each one of us and what we need.

Our part is to cooperate with what He is doing, but even if we don't, still fleshy - and that's what it is, we need mind renewing - we have one of those great and precious promises, that He will chasten us, or literally, train as one trains a child. Discipline, in the sense of instilling discipline.

It is greavous, but effective, always effective to it's purpose. And afterward, the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

Who like to say they've been chastened of the Lord? I rejoice in it!! This is simply part of His renewing my mind.

"Be ye transformed" by the renewing of your mind, this is passive voice, happens to you.

OK, I just realized how much I've written, I'm sorry, I know I go on sometimes!

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Have you ever been in a position where you knew doing one thing was the right thing to do, but for whatever reason you froze and could not do this? I will give some examples: You are hanging out with your friends and they start to bully someone who is weaker than you all, and instead of standing up and saying to leave the person alone you join in just to fit in.

You see, a renewed mind is more than just a mental acknowledgment of wrong, But it is an active action against what is wrong. To Truly Love that person being bullied is to stand up against that bullying at the cost of losing your friendships, It is not Just knowing what you are doing is wrong.

All the parts are there in you, telling you what you are doing is wrong, but they are not assembled properly, and the result is paralysis in the face of adversity rather than courage.

This is why the church in general is in a state of powerless in this generation. This is textualism in a nutshell. It is not the doctrines that are off, but the moving parts are frozen. So You have churches now that deny the gifts of the Spirit (cessationism), they deny the the responsibility to perform Greater works than the Son of Man did, contrary to his promises to do so through us, they deny the action of faith, and overemphasize the doctrine, and the text of faith, and faith without works is dead, and they hold this dead faith up as the standard for what Christ intended for His church. This is the self deception of textualism. The Spirit brings LIFE, not death. Vitality, not inaction, empowers, does not paralyze. Renewing of the mind is just the start of the journey, and that is what I am trying to convey to you, that is, us for the first time realizing all the parts have a purpose, And each part must be placed in their God designed place in order for the vehicle to operate according to the will of God. Can God use an incomplete vehicle? Yes, as he is almighty and does, but he would rather have a working vehicle to show the wonders of what he has done for us.

These are who the saints are. They are a testimony unto themselves of the Blood of the lamb at work in them. They move mountains, overcome principalities and Powers, And it is by their testimony that Satan is cast down to earth and can no longer accuse the brethren in heaven. They in turn will judge the world and the angels. Renewing your mind does not qualify you for this alone, You must be born of the Spirit....
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)

Lest You question what I am saying, here is a search of the Phrase "in the Spirit" Read the passages in the New testament just to get an idea of how important this was to the early church and compare this to the mentions of renewing, renew the mind. (Romans 12:2, and Ephesians 4:23)
KJV Search Results for "in" AND "the" AND "Spirit" (blueletterbible.org)

In Fact, the verse from Ephesians is found in the first list, as this is what "renewing the mind" involves, being "in the Spirit". It is when a saint is in the Spirit that they act according to the will Of God.... please ponder these things. When the engine is humming and the gears are oiled, the vehicle moves, and moves mountains at that.

God Bless, and thank you for the rambling post so I could go off topic a bit and express these things.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

David H. said:

Have you ever been in a position where you knew doing one thing was the right thing to do, but for whatever reason you froze and could not do this?

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All I can say is, whenever this happens, pray in trust, and let Jesus live through you. Don't fear other people, He will lead you in a good way.

Much love!

David H. said:

and that is what I am trying to convey to you, that is, us for the first time realizing all the parts have a purpose, And each part must be placed in their God designed place in order for the vehicle to operate according to the will of God. Can God use an incomplete vehicle? Yes, as he is almighty and does, but he would rather have a working vehicle to show the wonders of what he has done for us.

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A good passage to meditate on, so that you can in renewing your mind, find a new set of thoughts and feelings to with that new mind,

Ephesians 4:1-3 KJV
1) I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Something this doesn't mean, I think, it doesn't mean talking down to others as you cookie cutter label them.

Much love!

David H. said:

When the engine is humming and the gears are oiled, the vehicle moves, and moves mountains at that.

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I truly wish you could see the true way the body functions. Not with a one member rejecting the others in favor of their own self-affirmations.

Much love!

michaelvpardo said:

Hello brother. I know that you're an excellent scholar, but much of your statements seem like carnal interpretations of the prophetic rather than spiritual ones. This is why I don't like dogmatism in scriptural interpretation.

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Trying to interpret Zechariah 5:1-11 spiritually, is a mistake.
It describes literal things and places. It is given to us, now nearly at the end of this Church age, to confirm what is actually taking place right now.
Iran does have a nuclear program, they do have large missiles and their intention is plain; they want to destroy Israel.

Many prophesies tell what the Lord will do to them when they commence their attack.
We should know about it, as the whole world will be affected on that Day.

Keraz said:

Trying to interpret Zechariah 5:1-11 spiritually, is a mistake.
It describes literal things and places. It is given to us, now nearly at the end of this Church age, to confirm what is actually taking place right now.
Iran does have a nuclear program, they do have large missiles and their intention is plain; they want to destroy Israel.

Many prophesies tell what the Lord will do to them when they commence their attack.
We should know about it, as the whole world will be affected on that Day.

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Do you think that scripture is fulfilled only physically?
Will a scroll with curses on both sides fly through the air and enter the houses of thieves, liars, and those who swear falsely in the name of God? That's the literal physical interpretation of the passage about the flying scroll. Those explanations you provide, like a massive coronal mass ejection, are absolutely possible, but not a literal interpretation and are not found in scripture. These are things that you believe may happen, and they may indeed, but if God's given you a vision about it, then say so. If not, aren't you just leaning on your own understanding?
Suppose that you're entirely correct in your ideas, how is that helpful to the church? How does it glorify God?
Joel Rosenberg's best seller "Epicenter " also revealed much of what's happening now in the middle east and he wrote it, based upon the book of Ezekiel and published it in 2006, 15 years ago. He doesn't claim to be a prophet, though some of his fiction actually happened, but he's an intelligence analyst and wrote his books according to his understanding of the middle east and its politics. I dont doubt that there will be a battle of armageddon, but it doesn't have to happen now. The first purpose of all the prophets was to turn kings and nations from destruction. God takes no pleasure in the death of those who die and always gives opportunity for repentance. Jonah preached destruction upon Nineveh without even calling for repentance, but God turned the hearts of the entire city and gave it a temporary reprieve ( it was eventually destroyed, but not when Jonah was written. )

David H. said:

Have you ever been in a position where you knew doing one thing was the right thing to do, but for whatever reason you froze and could not do this? I will give some examples: You are hanging out with your friends and they start to bully someone who is weaker than you all, and instead of standing up and saying to leave the person alone you join in just to fit in.

You see, a renewed mind is more than just a mental acknowledgment of wrong, But it is an active action against what is wrong. To Truly Love that person being bullied is to stand up against that bullying at the cost of losing your friendships, It is not Just knowing what you are doing is wrong.

All the parts are there in you, telling you what you are doing is wrong, but they are not assembled properly, and the result is paralysis in the face of adversity rather than courage.

This is why the church in general is in a state of powerless in this generation. This is textualism in a nutshell. It is not the doctrines that are off, but the moving parts are frozen. So You have churches now that deny the gifts of the Spirit (cessationism), they deny the the responsibility to perform Greater works than the Son of Man did, contrary to his promises to do so through us, they deny the action of faith, and overemphasize the doctrine, and the text of faith, and faith without works is dead, and they hold this dead faith up as the standard for what Christ intended for His church. This is the self deception of textualism. The Spirit brings LIFE, not death. Vitality, not inaction, empowers, does not paralyze. Renewing of the mind is just the start of the journey, and that is what I am trying to convey to you, that is, us for the first time realizing all the parts have a purpose, And each part must be placed in their God designed place in order for the vehicle to operate according to the will of God. Can God use an incomplete vehicle? Yes, as he is almighty and does, but he would rather have a working vehicle to show the wonders of what he has done for us.

These are who the saints are. They are a testimony unto themselves of the Blood of the lamb at work in them. They move mountains, overcome principalities and Powers, And it is by their testimony that Satan is cast down to earth and can no longer accuse the brethren in heaven. They in turn will judge the world and the angels. Renewing your mind does not qualify you for this alone, You must be born of the Spirit....
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)

Lest You question what I am saying, here is a search of the Phrase "in the Spirit" Read the passages in the New testament just to get an idea of how important this was to the early church and compare this to the mentions of renewing, renew the mind. (Romans 12:2, and Ephesians 4:23)
KJV Search Results for "in" AND "the" AND "Spirit" (blueletterbible.org)

In Fact, the verse from Ephesians is found in the first list, as this is what "renewing the mind" involves, being "in the Spirit". It is when a saint is in the Spirit that they act according to the will Of God.... please ponder these things. When the engine is humming and the gears are oiled, the vehicle moves, and moves mountains at that.

God Bless, and thank you for the rambling post so I could go off topic a bit and express these things.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

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Powerful argument brother. Are you sure that you're not a prophet? Getting the church back on track has always been the work of the prophet. I haven't a clue who decided that it was "revelation" as that was always secondary to the purposes of God calling, preparing, and sending the prophets to His sinning congregation.

marks said:

I truly wish you could see the true way the body functions. Not with a one member rejecting the others in favor of their own self-affirmations.

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If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

To Encourage brethren who are living in the Spirit to walk in the Spirit is not self affirming, In Fact it is based on the principal of edification of the Body. To Live in the Spirit is one thing, to walk is to be active in the Spirit. I do not know if what wrote offended you, or belittled you, or convicted you by your response. Over and over again we see Paul and the other Apostles edifying the Body and encouraging them to walk in the Spirit, and we also see their frustration at times as well "Who has bewitched you?" "By now ye ought to be teachers" "Drinking the Milk of doctrine vs. the meat of the Word", But in the end they persevered and ran the race to the finish on their Journey to sainthood. We are all on that Journey, and along the way The Spirit gives us Gifts, we do not all get the same gifts of the Spirit but together and in fellowship, they are the seven Spirits of God, Apart, they have their purpose in the local body, But in the unity of the Spirit they are His presence amongst us "God with us". No Man is capable of having all the seven Spirits of God. Instead, they are divided amongst the seven churches, in seven ages each one with a piece of the Puzzle, that in fellowship and when has put away their pride, they may come together as one in the unity of the Spirit, until that day they will at times be at odds with each other, even to the point of warfare.

You see there is a true unity coming as well as a false unity, The false unity is built on compromise and tolerance, while the true unity is built on affirmation and completion. One Produces a watered down Gospel, the other a concentrated Holy Ghost empowered Presence of the Person of Truth, Christ Jesus in His fulness. One has no conviction and repentance, the Other cannot stand in the presence of the Holy.

It is my belief that the final outpouring of the Spirit is the gift of discerning of Spirits, it is this gift that will expose and enable us to judge as God intended and without this gift we are unable to do so rightly. Much like this final church age began with the outpouring of the gift of tongues, the latter rain will be this gift, It is this gift that is promised in Malachi 3:18 before the end occurs.

michaelvpardo said:

Are you sure that you're not a prophet?

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I Am not a prophet. Never have I claimed to be. Any of us who are walking in the Spirit can receive the word of Prophecy, But this does not make us a prophet. A step below a prophet is a watchmen or a seer, That is what I am. Like Balaam's Donkey. A watchmen is not always right, but they warn of the possibilities of what they see coming to fruition in the hopes of averting disaster. If they fail to warn, blood is upon their hands, and if those who are warned do not heed them the blood is upon their own hands. Read Ezekiel 33.