Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
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So balaams donkey didn’t really see that angel with his eyes?
Of course he did.
We can’t see in infra red light but we figured out how to see it with special optics.
We can’t see the spirit universe spectrum anymore with our eyes, but used to, and will again, just like animals can still do today.
God in fact removes the veil that keeps us from seeing Him during His wrath in the tribulation.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
The first resurrection has NOT occurred yet and there’s NOTHING in scripture that says he was given a special resurrection ahead of time - that claim is merely spin.
The souls in heaven seen by John, of martyrs killed by the Antichrist who talk to God, are proof that soul sleep is bogus - they aren’t asleep in the dirt with their bodies.
TheslightestID
Active Member
TheslightestID
Active Member
I see it as just the opposite, the earth we have floating in space, makes perfect sense because it is a proven reality, but you seem to want to take something fictional and assume its the most likely scenario.
No offense at all intended, but that makes no sense at all to me.
I never said it had taken place. I never implied that it had taken place, and specifically, in several places, said that it has yet to take place and is going to take place near the beginning of the 1,000 years at Jesus' return. Why do you constantly straw man my position?
You are simply mistaken, and especially about "NOTHING", see:
"Cases of Resurrections in Scripture to consider:
OT:
[01.] Moses by The Son of God (aka Jesus/Michael, the eternal uncreated and highest Angel (Messenger) of the LORD (Father) - Numbers 20:8-12, 27:13, 31:2; Deuteronomy 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 32:51-52, 34:1-8; 1 Samuel 2:6; Matthew 22:32; John 11:25-26; Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9" - Special Resurrections - Cases in Scripture, of the past, and of one to come before the Great Ones
OT:
[01.] Moses by The Son of God (aka Jesus/Michael, the eternal uncreated and highest Angel (Messenger) of the LORD (Father) - Numbers 20:8-12, 27:13, 31:2; Deuteronomy 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 32:51-52, 34:1-8; 1 Samuel 2:6; Matthew 22:32; John 11:25-26; Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9" - Special Resurrections - Cases in Scripture, of the past, and of one to come before the Great Ones
Already showed to you the error of your assertions, from scripture (KJB), to which you never responded:
- Special Resurrections - Cases in Scripture, of the past, and of one to come before the Great Ones
All you have is a mere mantra of personal origin to what I provided in response from scripture (KJB).
" ... Job_20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust. ..."
Special Resurrections - Cases in Scripture, of the past, and of one to come before the Great Ones
I asked you to cite NASA and we will consider their own words (which are contradictory, impossible in real physics, etc) on the matter. I even said you could ignore the videos. Why do you pretend you are able to even comprehend the matter, and act as if you are above the situation?
Prove me in error with science. Demonstrate the matters of fact before all. I am more than willing to retract my position if shown to be incorrect from the evidence in maths, physics, chemistry, aerodynamics, thermodynamics, atmospherics, &c.
Look again:
Tell me the actual descent velocities of the Phoenix Mars Lander from space to touchdown, along with the methods of each stage (free fall entry, chute, rocket engine, air bubble, etc), the PSI index of atmosphere at each stage, and the time index in which each supposedly occurred (be careful not to mix up the various stories, for it would be worse than the stories themselves) along with a total ...
Why do you not answer these simple questions?
See - Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
"... For communication between earth and moon, what is the constant power output required for sending from earth to the moon, and what is the power output for sending from the moon to the earth? Did the Apollo 11 equipment (known to have been taken) have the capability to produce such an output? What was the power source (battery, generating electrical field, etc)? If battery, what is the temperature cell stability range of such in the vacuum of space in full sun, and full shade?
What is the time delay in seconds that should occur between each transmission (lunar to lunar), (lunar to cislunar) and (lunar to earth), and is that time delay witnessed in the supposedly Apollo 11 recordings?
For the cameras batteries being supposedly operated on the Apollo 11, what is the cell temperature stability range?" - Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
"... On the various NASA 'lunar' missions, are there any records which demonstrate that external (to suit and pod) sound was actually recorded over the internal microphones (suit) in the complete vacuum of space, and if so, how is that possible?" - Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
"... On the Apollo 11 mission the persons aboard wore suits which were supposedly pressurized to earth atmosphere. What was the exact and specific pressurization, and how would that affect the suits in the vacuum of space, in open full sun and direct shade? Would the suits appendages in both legs, arms and fingers (hands) be capable of easily bending (remember the suit will balloon under internal pressure and because of the lack of external pressure in the vacuum of lunar space) and working with tiny objects, say the size of buttons, tools and etcand screws, etc.? What is the exact measurement of "pressure" that would be exacting due to this? What would be the required pressure to bend, or move, the appendages such as the arms, legs and hands and fingers?" - Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
"... In the vacuum of lunar space, in full view of the sun, without an atmosphere, what is the extreme range of 'heat', and in the shade of any given object large enough to cover the entire body, what is the extreme range of 'cold'? In other words what is full range of temperature that the suits and persons in those suits must experience at any given time, and how did those suits radiate any and all excess heat and or compensate for the cold that would be accumulated by that range and change of temperatures?" - Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
"... To be able to breath in the vacuum of space, a tank of oxygen (mix) is required, along with a pressurized suit. How much air did the 'tanks' on the 'space suits' of Apollo 11 hold (how many 'bars' (diving terms)?) What were the exact size of the tanks (external and internal carrying/load capacity), and what were the composition of materials that the tanks were made of, and what was the external to internal temperature range limits? How long were the exercises carried out on external lunar soil missions and would the tanks hold enough air, and how was the oxygen (air) replaced on each subsequent outing? Where are the exchanged tanks, and what was the exact process for exchanging those tanks, and what was the time it took to exchange each one, and were those time tables given in any available NASA mission logs? When the material 'air' from the lungs is expelled, what venting process occurred by the mechanics of the suits, and can any of this venting be seen on any recorded data, and if there was no need for venting, how was the expelled 'air' recycled and/or stored? If so, where did those storage tanks get stored or ejected?" - Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
And especially here on multiple dimension "hoo-ha" (sic) - Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
Do you think it (the subject, or I) will go away simply because you are 'hand-waving'?
You see, it involves the matter of the idea of sin (mankind) leaving this planet to spread throughout the universe, which God will not allow.
Why don’t I answer these simple questions? Because it’s not worth my time. If someone else would care to answer them, I’ll read it, but honestly, I don’t even read everything you write.
Yes, honesty. Finally.
Yes, the indolence of this age is paramount of its character, being that the hour of power of darkness approaches its peak and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of men. Many love to sleep, and fold their hands, putting them into their bosoms, so as not to bring them to their mouth again. The attention span of mankind is reduced to ashes by the blitzkrieg and third Reich of the devil in his onslaught of instant gratification, and food is swallowed without even chewing each morsel over and over and tasting its sweet particle flavours. I must wonder if the 'advice given' to God about Psalms 119; the book of Isaiah and Jeremiah are of the same character ("TL;DR"; "Wall-O-Text"; "CnP", &c), or to their 'pastors' about the length of the time in the pulpit. ...
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Doesn’t matter what it consists of.
Scripture disproves soul sleep completely, whatever a soul is made of.
A synopsis of facts:
Our body is a HOME we leave at death, and go to be with Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:1,6,8
The soul leaves the body at death, therefore doesn’t sleep with it. 1 kings 17:21-23; Genesis 35:18
Damned humans are put in the same place that spirits called angels are put, who have no bodies to bury or sleep in dirt, hence hell can’t be the grave. Matthew 25:41
John sees souls under the altar in heaven, who’ve been slain by the Antichrist, and they are talking to God, so are conscious and awaiting resurrection - not sleeping in dirt. Revelation 6:9-10
There are beings under the earth who talk, thus are conscious and aren’t eating dirt, or asleep in a grave. Revelation 5:13
Moses has died, but Moses’ soul isn’t taking a snooze in the dirt, because he visited Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Mark 9:4
Shalom Aleichem
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I'm persuaded the way you rationalise in this post Curtis, is muddled and misinformed to the point of inaccuracy.
Scripture says Lazarus was raised from the dead - now show me where scripture says Moses was.
There is none. But Moses is the least of the problems that soul sleep doctrine has with scripture.
To whit:
A synopsis of facts:
Our body is a HOME we leave at death, and go to be with Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:1,6,8
The soul leaves the body at death, therefore doesn’t sleep with it. 1 kings 17:21-23; Genesis 35:18
Damned humans are put in the same place that spirits called fallen angels are put, who have no bodies to bury or sleep in dirt, hence hell can’t be the grave. Matthew 25:41
John sees souls under the altar in heaven, who’ve been slain by the Antichrist, and they are talking to God, so are conscious and awaiting bodily resurrection - not sleeping in dirt. Revelation 6:9-10
There are beings under the earth who talk, thus are conscious and aren’t eating dirt asleep in a grave. Revelation 5:13
Moses has died, but Moses soul isn’t taking a snooze in the dirt, because he visited Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Mark 9:4
Shalom Aleichem
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Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Why did Paul write that "death reigned from Adam to Moses"? Why did "death" only reign from Adam to Moses? What broke the reign of death?
You said it doesn't "matter". That is another way of saying immateriality.
"... IMMATERIALITY
THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}
O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]
who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}
The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}
Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}
As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}
What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}
What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}
What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}
We choose all substance - what remains
The mystical sectarian gains;
All that each claims, each shall possess,
Nor grudge each other's happiness.
An immaterial God they choose,
For such a God we have no use;
An immaterial heaven and hell,
In such a heaven we cannot dwell.
We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
And all the starry worlds on high;
Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
And bodies made of flesh and bones.
Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
All things are ours, and we shall be,
The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1
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