Children (and dogs)?

Brakelite · Jun 20, 2021

amadeus said:
Yes, the beasts, unable to decide for themselves really were there and saved, but consider all of those left to the flood able to make decisions, who simply continued on in the ways of men until there was no more time...

It must have been tempting for Noah to have compassion to let some in as they were hammering on the doors as the rain fell. But it was God who closed and sealed the door. Maybe He knew they needed to stay out. Coming in under false pretenses wasn't an option.

amadeus · Jun 20, 2021

Backlit said:
Although knowing the character of the antideluvians maybe not so sad. Not that it made much difference. Just 3 generations later they were building Babylon. I sometimes think that the technology the antideluvians had was of more importance to be destroyed, and the people second so they couldn't repeat it. Even then, they had the technology and know how to be able to transport 20ton blocks of stone over terrain that today is impossible.

People are essentially the same today as they have always been... always needing help, always needing a savior. God knew this better than they did and He also knew that when the Savior had been sent and when another Comforter was on the scene that still so many would continue to choose and walk through the wide gate.

amadeus · Jun 20, 2021

Backlit said:
It must have been tempting for Noah to have compassion to let some in as they were hammering on the doors as the rain fell. But it was God who closed and sealed the door. Maybe He knew they needed to stay out. Coming in under false pretenses wasn't an option.

Here also for those who are able to understand it is a reason why some of us pray to God in an unknown tongue!

Nancy · Jun 21, 2021

amadeus said:
What was in the ark that Noah built?

Good question John!

Nancy · Jun 21, 2021

Backlit said:
Oh yes, I like horses too. And lions. Tigers. Alpacas. Gold fish..... In fact if I have my way, my mansion in the new Jerusalem and my home in the country will be filled with animals, birds, fish, and maybe even people.

"and maybe even people."

Ronald Nolette · Jun 22, 2021

amadeus said:
Of course anyone who cannot see would be a very poor eye witness, right? How many people are walking around today completely blind to God and the things of God?

But... then how many men are dogs? Here was a dog of great faith that worshipped Jesus:

"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Matt 15:25-28

Amen!

you know she did not consider herself a real dog

Ronald Nolette · Jun 22, 2021

Enoch111 said:
Yes, but you could not have preached the Gospel to that baby in the womb, and neither could he have responded to it.

There is nothing false in postulating an age of accountability. Chances are that you could not have responded to the Gospel when you were 2, or 5, or 8 years old. And God does not expect what cannot be reasonably expected. The Jewish bar mitzvah happens at age 12, so one could say that this is also the age of accountability. But that cannot be a hard and fast rule.

According to Romans 1, all adult human being are without excuse, since the glory of God is revealed in creation. And that is not relevant to what is being discussed. Neither are dogs, cats, or any pets.

but the children of God do not live by chance- we live by every Word of God! There is nothing in SCripture that postulates an "age of accountability" But there is many verses that say all are born in sin and iniquity and are by nature children of wrath.

Once again if God chooses to save infants (and that is a big IF) He did not reveal it to us and to speculate can only lead to fruitless speculation.

I completely trust god to do what is right and just. If He chooses to save infants that are born say in Hindu families, then it is right and just. If HIe chooses not to, then that is right and just as well. There is too much that is open and written for us to deal with than concerning ourselves with maybes and possibities that at best have only a tiny maybe in His Woird.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 22, 2021

Backlit said:
KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The above does not say that man has a soul. He is a soul.
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh...soul... Same as Genesis 2:7 above. Both man and animal are living souls.) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.‭

Well now go and learn the difference between Hebrew and Greek "nephesh" in Hebrew means conscious existence as well as a soul. While Greek describes man as having "soma", "Psuche", and "pneuma" body soul and spirit.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 22, 2021

Backlit said:
Not hearing or understanding the gospel, nor even hearing or knowing who Jesus is, does not preclude someone being saved because Jesus died for them. Let us not box God into our little set of theological formula and claim this one is saved because they completed a degree in being born again according to my theological university.

So then you reject the requirements for being saved as clearly and unambiguously spelled out in Gods word then.

Brakelite · Jun 22, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
but the children of God do not live by chance- we live by every Word of God! There is nothing in SCripture that postulates an "age of accountability" But there is many verses that say all are born in sin and iniquity and are by nature children of wrath.

Once again if God chooses to save infants (and that is a big IF) He did not reveal it to us and to speculate can only lead to fruitless speculation.

I completely trust god to do what is right and just. If He chooses to save infants that are born say in Hindu families, then it is right and just. If HIe chooses not to, then that is right and just as well. There is too much that is open and written for us to deal with than concerning ourselves with maybes and possibities that at best have only a tiny maybe in His Woird.

I would suggest the following as evidence that God takes into account the faithfulness of the parents in consideration of the eternal destiny perhaps of children. I wouldn't state this as being categorical, but to me it makes sense.
KJV 1 Corinthians 7:13-14
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

amadeus · Jun 22, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
you know she did not consider herself a real dog

No, but she knew what Jesus meant and resigned herself to that. Jesus was paying attention to her heart.

Brakelite · Jun 22, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Well now go and learn the difference between Hebrew and Greek "nephesh" in Hebrew means conscious existence as well as a soul. While Greek describes man as having "soma", "Psuche", and "pneuma" body soul and spirit.

You think because of the meaning of the word nephesh, it changes the entire nature and meaning of the scripture in Genesis 2:7?
Adam became a living creature. Yes, he became a conscious living entity, as you suggested. "Conscious entity" isn't a distinctly different living entity from soul. They are one and the same. Man is a soul. Man is a conscious living entity...a living creature...a living soul. And yes, Adam received also the breath of life...psuche... And no suggestion that 'spirit' is an independent conscious entity either.

Brakelite · Jun 22, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
So then you reject the requirements for being saved as clearly and unambiguously spelled out in Gods word then.

If it were so unambiguous and clearly spelled out then none of us would be here. Babylon the Great would have no support, the Kings of the earth wouldn't bother with her, the counterfeit she has set up wouldn't deceive anyone. But we know that's not the case. The whole world gets drunk on her teachings and goes mad. They end up worshipping at her request and according to her rules. The plan of salvation is clear to those being saved because God has revealed it to them... But it ain't so clear to everybody else... And the ones who do understand are a vast minority. I wouldn't be so confident if I were in your shoes demanding that God obey your formulas.

quietthinker · Jun 22, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
So then you reject the requirements for being saved as clearly and unambiguously spelled out in Gods word then.

Did you have any input at you physical birth Ronald?....did you claw your way down that tunnel and choose when?
Why would a rebirth be any more a choice and function than your physical birth?

Enoch111 · Jun 22, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
So then you reject the requirements for being saved as clearly and unambiguously spelled out in Gods word then.

God's requirements apply to those who can in fact understand and obey the Gospel. Which means that little children are excluded from those requirements.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 23, 2021

amadeus said:
No, but she knew what Jesus meant and resigned herself to that. Jesus was paying attention to her heart.

Yes to all Jews, gentiles were dogs metaphorically speaking. Jesus used that to showcase her faith.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 23, 2021

Backlit said:
You think because of the meaning of the word nephesh, it changes the entire nature and meaning of the scripture in Genesis 2:7?
Adam became a living creature. Yes, he became a conscious living entity, as you suggested. "Conscious entity" isn't a distinctly different living entity from soul. They are one and the same. Man is a soul. Man is a conscious living entity...a living creature...a living soul. And yes, Adam received also the breath of life...psuche... And no suggestion that 'spirit' is an independent conscious entity either.

Man is a soul and has a soul (psuche) . Only man has the ability to know His self, grow in their knowledge (add to teh collective amount of knowledge) etc.etc.etc. The soul is that immaterial part of a person that we define as who we are, our personality, our conscience etc.

Backlit said:
You think because of the meaning of the word nephesh, it changes the entire nature and meaning of the scripture in Genesis 2:7?
Adam became a living creature. Yes, he became a conscious living entity, as you suggested. "Conscious entity" isn't a distinctly different living entity from soul. They are one and the same. Man is a soul. Man is a conscious living entity...a living creature...a living soul. And yes, Adam received also the breath of life...psuche... And no suggestion that 'spirit' is an independent conscious entity either.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Boy, Paul sure sounds silly here unless he knows that man is a trichotomous being made up of body(soma) soul(psuche) and spirit(pneuma)

Ronald Nolette · Jun 23, 2021

Backlit said:
If it were so unambiguous and clearly spelled out then none of us would be here. Babylon the Great would have no support, the Kings of the earth wouldn't bother with her, the counterfeit she has set up wouldn't deceive anyone. But we know that's not the case. The whole world gets drunk on her teachings and goes mad. They end up worshipping at her request and according to her rules. The plan of salvation is clear to those being saved because God has revealed it to them... But it ain't so clear to everybody else... And the ones who do understand are a vast minority. I wouldn't be so confident if I were in your shoes demanding that God obey your formulas.

Why yo0u bring in Babylon to muddy the waters is beyond me. we are talking about what teh bible says is needed to be saved and nothing about Babylon the Great.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 23, 2021

quietthinker said:
Did you have any input at you physical birth Ronald?....did you claw your way down that tunnel and choose when?
Why would a rebirth be any more a choice and function than your physical birth?

Because teh bible tells us how the rebirth takes place. It isn't a question of comparing similar things and coming to a conclusion. It is accepting what the bible says no matter what else may sound reasonable.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 23, 2021

Enoch111 said:
God's requirements apply to those who can in fact understand and obey the Gospel. Which means that little children are excluded from those requirements.

And the verse that shows this exclusion is where?

Do you also accept that people who have never heard the gospel or the name Jesus can still be saved as well?

That means you believe and teach three ways to get saved.

For babvies they are automatic, until that mystical "age of accountability" when they lose their salvation and have to get saved the biblical way.

but you forget God is omniscient and omnipotent. If He wants a baby to be saved and if they really have no spiritual capacity to understand the gospel, He is more than able to keep them alive until He calls them to come to Jesus.

Children (and dogs)?

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