How the "Church" is defined

Randy Kluth · Jun 23, 2021

I tend to view "Christians" and the "Church" as all those who simply claim to believe in Christ as their spiritual life. They are not always consisting of those who completely make the transition to the "new birth."

People can follow the "knowledge of Christ" without making a complete commitment to him from the heart. They may mean well, but unless they completely commit to Christ, they are basically men living in their carnal nature who only sometimes obey Christ's word. They are not fully transformed.

The Church thus consists of all kinds of Christians who are in process of determining whether they will complete their "Salvation" with a complete transfer of power, from their carnal selves to Christ himself, who would endow them with a completely new spiritual nature.

I don't know if this definition appeals to you? Most Christians I know define the "Church" as the "glorious Bride of Christ" as if transported into the future, all of the "Christians" who didn't make it are now cut off.

I believe both definitions of "Church" are used in the Bible. It tends to refer to a church as simply a gathering of those who profess faith in Christ, whether they become the future glorious Bride or not.

The ideal is also presented when in the future those who prevail in their faith and are spiritually made new become "glorified." This is how the Bible views the *future Church.* Let me know what you think?

CharismaticLady · Jun 23, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I tend to view "Christians" and the "Church" as all those who simply claim to believe in Christ as their spiritual life. They are not always consisting of those who completely make the transition to the "new birth."

People can follow the "knowledge of Christ" without making a complete commitment to him from the heart. They may mean well, but unless they completely commit to Christ, they are basically men living in their carnal nature who only sometimes obey Christ's word. They are not fully transformed.

The Church thus consists of all kinds of Christians who are in process of determining whether they will complete their "Salvation" with a complete transfer of power, from their carnal selves to Christ himself, who would endow them with a completely new spiritual nature.

I don't know if this definition appeals to you? Most Christians I know define the "Church" as the "glorious Bride of Christ" as if transported into the future, all of the "Christians" who didn't make it are now cut off.

I believe both definitions of "Church" are used in the Bible. It tends to refer to a church as simply a gathering of those who profess faith in Christ, whether they become the future glorious Bride or not.

The ideal is also presented when in the future those who prevail in their faith and are spiritually made new become "glorified." This is how the Bible views the *future Church.* Let me know what you think?

This is why Jesus said, "Few there are that find it."

Enoch111 · Jun 24, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I don't know if this definition appeals to you?

You are attempting to redefine the Church rather than presenting the biblical definition. The Church is the Body of Christ, and every member of that Body has been baptized with the Holy Spirit and baptized into the Body of Christ. And only God knows who is in that Body. And only Christ knows who are members of His body, "of His flesh and of His bones".

Now when Paul wrote to the various churches, he equated the local church with the spiritual Church. But today Christendom consists of all denominations (and cults) and all churches within those. So within Christendom, the true Church may only be a fraction of professing Christians. But neither you nor I are to be the judge of that.

Brakelite · Jun 24, 2021

I can see this thread turning to custard very quickly.

Stumpmaster · Jun 24, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
How the "Church" is defined
I tend to view "Christians" and the "Church" as all those who simply claim to believe in Christ as their spiritual life. They are not always consisting of those who completely make the transition to the "new birth."

Hi Randy,
In the Bible, as you know, the ekklesia (church if you must) is defined metaphorically as a body with believers being its members and Christ being its Head.
A distinction can be made between the current visible local congregations of the body of Christ, and the overall invisible total congregation of all Christians in the history of the body of Christ. The fact that local congregations are a mix of saved and unsaved is covered in the parable of the wheat and the tares, with the outcome being only the wheat remain in the actually body of Christ on Judgment Day.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the ekklesia: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Curtis · Jun 24, 2021

Enoch111 said:
You are attempting to redefine the Church rather than presenting the biblical definition. The Church is the Body of Christ, and every member of that Body has been baptized with the Holy Spirit and baptized into the Body of Christ. And only God knows who is in that Body. And only Christ knows who are members of His body, "of His flesh and of His bones".

Now when Paul wrote to the various churches, he equated the local church with the spiritual Church. But today Christendom consists of all denominations (and cults) and all churches within those. So within Christendom, the true Church may only be a fraction of professing Christians. But neither you nor I are to be the judge of that.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Brakelite · Jun 24, 2021

Curtis said:
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

All of those judgements are decided on the back of verifiable evidence. We don't have that evidence when it comes to one another. Certainly not on a forum. Yet so many think they know others hearts.

Randy Kluth · Jun 24, 2021

Stumpmaster said:
Hi Randy,
In the Bible, as you know, the ekklesia (church if you must) is defined metaphorically as a body with believers being its members and Christ being its Head.
A distinction can be made between the current visible local congregations of the body of Christ, and the overall invisible total congregation of all Christians in the history of the body of Christ. The fact that local congregations are a mix of saved and unsaved is covered in the parable of the wheat and the tares, with the outcome being only the wheat remain in the actually body of Christ on Judgment Day.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the ekklesia: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Well said! In another forum a brother said something similar, but insisted that all those who truly commit to Christ always follow through and become "born again." I take issue with that based on Heb 6.4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

This indicates to me that some nominal Christians have embraced a Christian lifestyle by adopting the knowledge and teaching of Christ without developing a "mature" Christianity, which really starts with becoming "born again." They are not truly being brought to "repentance," and ultimately they fall away. This is what I said to this other brother:

In my experience, there are folks in the church who don't just go through the motions of Christianity, but actually do Christian things, like share Christian teaching, and do acts of Christian love. But they never seem to be all the way there.

I can only surmise that something prevents them from committing wholly to the Lord. They don't completely hang up control over their being, and thus remain, in essence, carnal people--people who only occasionally sacrifice their carnal nature to do spiritual things.

I really don't know how else to say this? There are people in the church who have committed to the Christian lifestyle, who have put on a habit of speaking Christian things and doing Christian things without fully giving up their carnal being. The carnal man remains in control, whereas the Christian things they do are not really reflective of a complete commitment.

How can one tell the difference between a "goat" and a "sheep," since all of us are sometimes carnal in our behavior? As you say, a true commitment always completes the conversion by putting on a new nature. When we do spiritual things it exemplifies we've made a total commitment, and as such indicates love flowing out of a complete commitment, rather than just a "show" of love, or a "one-time payment" to God.

Zechariah called a leader in this state of being a "hireling." They do the "loving" thing, but they are only there for the ride, as a temporary means of self-realization. It isn't really "love" in the Christian sense. It's got ulterior motives, namely personal gain.

Have you seen this in your church? I know genuine saved Christians can be pretty flawed, and really backslide, even though they were truly saved. But there are those I've seen who are respectably committed to the Christian discipline, whose major flaw is that they don't have pure motives in their commitment to Christ. They want to be seen of men for their "good works." Put under pressure there is a boat load of hostility that emerges, with all of the carnal exhibitions that are normally suppressed.

It does seem that some nominal Christians adopt the Christian lifestyle and the language of Christianity, and live their by habit and by discipline, without being fully converted into disciples of Christ. We can know this not just by the indication of their seeming lack of total commitment, but also by the fact that ultimately, they "fall away." They are eventually goaded to make a complete commitment, and fall short, because it's not what they really wanted out of Christianity. What do you think?

Randy Kluth · Jun 24, 2021

Enoch111 said:
You are attempting to redefine the Church rather than presenting the biblical definition. The Church is the Body of Christ, and every member of that Body has been baptized with the Holy Spirit and baptized into the Body of Christ. And only God knows who is in that Body. And only Christ knows who are members of His body, "of His flesh and of His bones".

Now when Paul wrote to the various churches, he equated the local church with the spiritual Church. But today Christendom consists of all denominations (and cults) and all churches within those. So within Christendom, the true Church may only be a fraction of professing Christians. But neither you nor I are to be the judge of that.

I agree that we shouldn't "judge" people, who are making their own spiritual decisions in life. But I do see Webster's Dictionary define "Christian" as those who "profess," regardless of how real their profession is lived out.

I find this in the book of Revelation and in Paul's letters, as well. He treats all Christians alike, and yet recognizes that some haven't "made sure" their Salvation. What do you think?

Randy Kluth · Jun 24, 2021

CharismaticLady said:
This is why Jesus said, "Few there are that find it."

That really nails it. Not all who walk down the broad path will get in the door. Far be it from me to prevent anybody from walking down that path--I would encourage all, not to be overly introspective, self-doubting, or guilt-ridden, but to simply walk down that path we all know we should be on.

Those who go down the Christian path will be better for it, whether they get saved in eternity or not. I'm not going to judge them to death--they will know within themselves what they're doing. My only purpose here is to encourage the full commitment, so that we *know* we're saved. This reassurance is what we genuine Christians live for. We want to hear, "Well done!"

Curtis · Jun 24, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I tend to view "Christians" and the "Church" as all those who simply claim to believe in Christ as their spiritual life. They are not always consisting of those who completely make the transition to the "new birth."

People can follow the "knowledge of Christ" without making a complete commitment to him from the heart. They may mean well, but unless they completely commit to Christ, they are basically men living in their carnal nature who only sometimes obey Christ's word. They are not fully transformed.

The Church thus consists of all kinds of Christians who are in process of determining whether they will complete their "Salvation" with a complete transfer of power, from their carnal selves to Christ himself, who would endow them with a completely new spiritual nature.

I don't know if this definition appeals to you? Most Christians I know define the "Church" as the "glorious Bride of Christ" as if transported into the future, all of the "Christians" who didn't make it are now cut off.

I believe both definitions of "Church" are used in the Bible. It tends to refer to a church as simply a gathering of those who profess faith in Christ, whether they become the future glorious Bride or not.

The ideal is also presented when in the future those who prevail in their faith and are spiritually made new become "glorified." This is how the Bible views the *future Church.* Let me know what you think?

Actually the word church isn’t found in the Bible.

Ekkleesia just means an assembly of people - a PTA meeting is also an ekklesia.

They incorrectly translate ekklesia as church, whereas the Greek word for church - kuriakos - is not in the Bible.

Thus the Bible speaks about congregations, and does not outline a structure of hierarchy such as pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, etc, as some want us to believe that scripture is talking about, when Jesus said He would build His congregation on the confession of faith Peter made that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God.

marks · Jun 24, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
The ideal is also presented when in the future those who prevail in their faith and are spiritually made new become "glorified." This is how the Bible views the *future Church.* Let me know what you think?

When you say, Spiritually made new, do you mean that they already were? Or will be?

My view is that when we believe and receive, we become reborn. All the reborn are what I call the church, and none who are not. I like Sir Robert Anderson's use of Christendom to describe the cultural Christianity as a religion.

What makes us the church is that we are unified by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

When Paul addressed the church, I think there was an aspect of not trying to say who is true and who is not, but that the writing will distinguish individually, to ourselves, if we are paying attention.

Much love!

Enoch111 · Jun 24, 2021

Curtis said:
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

These verses must only be applied within a local church setting. As it is clear from the context.

Addy · Jun 24, 2021

Backlit said:
I can see this thread turning to custard very quickly.

You don't like custard??

Enoch111 · Jun 24, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I find this in the book of Revelation and in Paul's letters, as well. He treats all Christians alike, and yet recognizes that some haven't "made sure" their Salvation. What do you think?

We should bear in mind that (1) it is Christ who was judging all the churches in Revelation and (2) it is Christ who admonished each local church (each member) to address false teachings and practices within that particular church. Every NT church was autonomous under Christ.

So if you make judgments within your local assembly that is perfectly OK. But beyond that, we are not to involve ourselves in the affairs of other churches.

amigo de christo · Jun 24, 2021

CharismaticLady said:
This is why Jesus said, "Few there are that find it."

Yes HE DID . AND JESUS , unlike man , cannot LIE . FEW INDEED there be that find it .
Its getting real bad right now all over christendom .
And JESUS also said , never the less when the Son of man Comes will HE even find faith on the earth .
WE are in a massive falling away that only grows larger and darker by the day .
Cling to Christ , cling to that bible , and let no man take thy crown . For we have many deceivers all about and within
and prowling like a mad lion . Foaming out falsehoods and shame . and worse they do it in His name .

amigo de christo · Jun 24, 2021

QUIT YE LIKE SOLDIERS OF THE LORD .
The TIME is that the true lambs must contend more than ever for the true faith.
The division in the sand will be the we are one all inclusive religoin and secular , and on the other side
the non conforming lambs . We will be like a speck in number compared to them .
BUT FEAR them not . GOD IS WITH THE LAMBS and there are more with us in heaven and above .
Fear not to die , fear not to suffer .
The command is given .
Soldiers of the LORD , FORWARD MARCH , route step , Now RUN TO THE TRENCHES ITS ALL OUT WARFARE
and its truly for the souls of men . The powers of the darkness of this world are fast gathering a world
right unto the beast . A world which has not and shall not tolerate the lambs .
THIS GENERATION must go out faithful as did the first generation and all others since have done .
FAITHFUL TO THE LORD . BUT MAKE SURE ITS THE BIBLICAL JESUS one follows , or in truth its another jesus , which in truth
IS THE DRAGON . And marvel not , for he can appear as an angel of light and HE can use the name of JESUS
but he does so to point us to another non biblical jesus , WHICH IS HIM < THE DRAGON . He has always desired to be as God
and now His religion of the we are one all inclusive will have the world to worship him for one hour and give their kingdoms
unto the beast . NO fear . JUST REMEMBER THE PRIZE that comes at the END OF OUR FAITH .

Ziggy · Jun 24, 2021

amigo de christo said:
WE are in a massive falling away that only grows larger and darker by the day .

You would be surprised where some little candles flicker amigo de christo.
Some of the darkest, dankest , slumiest corners of the most horendous and vitriolic forums..
in a corner, under a bench, behind a door... those little candles are alit.
And every now and then one of those little candles get's real big and bright, and the flame lights up a whole room.

And then darkness descends again.. but those little candles, they don't give up. nope they don't.
I found a few, quite a few.. but they been hiding, because it can be really difficult and scary to be a bright flame.
But they are beginning to gather together. And what a wonderful sight it is to see.
Chasing the shadows away from those dark dank recessed corners of hell itself.

Keep Praying my Friend
God is listening

HUGS!!

amigo de christo · Jun 24, 2021

Backlit said:
I can see this thread turning to custard very quickly.

I dont know about custard , but i warn us all to beware of the chameleon . She knows how to deceive
and she has many that work along side with her . She has infected the hive known as christendom .
Almost all churches have tasted of her cup . While some are not yet as infected with her , if they do not
repent they will go and fully embrace her in time . She works in music , in spirituality , in contemplative prayer
and rituals . SHE is all about experimental , experienctial truth . NOT BIBLE TRUTH .
Beware her , for her voice , her song is flooding the minds of many now .

amigo de christo · Jun 24, 2021

Ziggy said:
You would be surprised where some little candles flicker amigo de christo.
Some of the darkest, dankest , slumiest corners of the most horendous and vitriolic forums..
in a corner, under a bench, behind a door... those little candles are alit.
And every now and then one of those little candles get's real big and bright, and the flame lights up a whole room.

And then darkness descends again.. but those little candles, they don't give up. nope they don't.
I found a few, quite a few.. but they been hiding, because it can be really difficult and scary to be a bright flame.
But they are beginning to gather together. And what a wonderful sight it is to see.
Chasing the shadows away from those dark dank recessed corners of hell itself.

Keep Praying my Friend
God is listening

HUGS!!

This we must do . COMFORT the feeble minded and remind those who do fear , they have no reason to fear .
TO LIVE IS CHRIST , to DIE is only gain .
We must make our last stand now and it must be upon the truth . For the current of deception
is washing all away in the river of its destruction . BUT for those who stand upon the STONE
the waters of the whore shall not knock them off THE STONE . Armour up one and all ,
as the early church came in , the last generation church shall go out . With much betrayal and much blood .
But fear not what is ,nor what is to come against us . THE LORD IS WITH US . GOD IS ACTUALLY WITH THE LAMBS .
AND HE IS ALL WE NEED . Let us focus on the PRIZE , the HOPE that comes at the end of our faith . FOREVER WITH THE LORD .

How the "Church" is defined

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