Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts

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APAK

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@Emily Nghiem not to throw the conversion my way, although I do think that @Wrangler does not believe that the Son created his own Father. That would be an incredible idea.

I'm curious where you might have picked up that idea from your post #374 when you said "Again I can understand the Father creating the Son to be sent that man may receive and reconcile, but NEVER see anything in the Bible that the Son created the Father."

APAK
 
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Wrangler

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what you don't seem to understand ... Jesus explains He is not of Himself but of the Father who is in Heaven. Jesus also states He is not only from Heaven but was still in Heaven even though He was in the flesh.

We are like Jesus, in the flesh but with the Spirit of God in us, part of us is in heaven.
 

Wrangler

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The KJV is nearly half a millennia old and is one of the worst translations available today. I provided 3 translations that have worship. King David was worshipped.

The only problem with this is how totally it destroys trinitarian doctrine.

By the power of Providence, I encountered 2 other men who were worshipped from the book of Daniel: Daniel &
Nebuchadnezzar.

Then King Nebuchadnezzar threw himself down before Daniel and worshiped him
Daniel 2:46

When you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes, and other musical instruments, bow to the ground to worship King Nebuchadnezzar’s gold statue.
Daniel 3:5
 

Emily Nghiem

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By the power of Providence, I encountered 2 other men who were worshipped from the book of Daniel: Daniel &
Nebuchadnezzar.

Then King Nebuchadnezzar threw himself down before Daniel and worshiped him
Daniel 2:46

When you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes, and other musical instruments, bow to the ground to worship King Nebuchadnezzar’s gold statue.
Daniel 3:5
If this was in the OT stages, that was before Jesus was incarnated and received by man.

I understand the OT before Jesus when it is described as living by the Letter of the law, people following leaders and depending on them to give the laws to the people.

The NT is where Jesus restores and fulfills the true meaning and authority of God's Word or Laws where we live by the Spirit of the law.

@Wrangler the biggest difference I see in how far people embrace and embody Jesus:
Righteous gentiles who just follow the laws and leaders by conscience don't necessarily see Jesus as the embodiment of Justice.

The believers in Jesus or Justice who receive and live this Spirit in their hearts and embrace it in our relations talk about doing things THROUGH Christ as the connection with God. Not externally just following God but actually having Jesus live in our hearts where we SHARE Authority of law in matters of relations with neighbors.

We do not necessarily rely on Priests to serve as the Authority of Jesus, but we can invoke Jesus to govern over and dwell in us and our relationships.

This is a deeper sense of embodiment.
Like th difference it makes when a law offcer or military veteran takes a solemn oath to defend the law with their lives as their sacred duty. This is different from the average citizen agreeing to comply with laws as given by others and following leaders.

When we take on this Authority through Jesus and make that commitment to the law, similar to an Officer or a Priest, we embody Jesus and we the people become the Church, the Bride of Christ receiving Jesus as Lord or Husband governing us as God's Law or Word, Lording over all other lords or laws.

When we the people embrace the Natural Laws given by God as embedded in Constitutional laws governing the state, again by agreeing to govern by the spirit of Jesus as Equal Justice Under Law, then we the people become the Government, not under man's justice but God's Justice through Jesus who is perfect while man is biased and not perfect in justice.

So the reason you will see Christian believers and leaders push so ardently to empower all people to receive Jesus, not just follow leaders and expect them to act as authority for us, but to FULLY embrace and embody Jesus as God's Authority of Law, is so we the people become the church living by the laws through Christ in our heart, and we the people become the government where Jesus fulfills and governs those laws as well.

We will have peace and harmony between our personal lives governed by church laws, and our public society, institutions and nations united and governed by God through Christ Jesus who equally fulfills those laws as well.

The Christians I know most dedicated to uphold the Constitutional laws as given to us by God are praying,preaching and teaching that we fully embrace and embody the Spirit of the Laws over both church and state so these are reconciled in perfect harmony and peace.

The ultimate meaning of establishing one faith in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit is to unite humanity, all tribes church denominations political affiliations and nations, in receiving God's universal Truth, Justice and Peace.

This is how I understand the significance of teaching the three manifestations as coming from the One God. Through Jesus as joining and fulfilling the laws of man with the Laws of God, we are made one and achieve lasting Peace.

I think this is why there is such a concern for fully receiving and experiencing Jesus as Divine incarnation and not just a prophet following God or teaching His Word and Law, but full embodiment, like all His being is the Spirit of God's Law and Justice sent down to this earthly level so we can embrace the Law.

Our fellow believers here want to make sure you are not just following others, but you fully embrace Jesus as the Authority of God directly, not depending on others to have this where you are just following them.

I think that is why these questions keep coming up about the Trinity and Jesus being God's Word not just repeating or teaching it like a prophet but full embodiment.
 
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Emily Nghiem

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Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!
Isa 6:3

Hope this helps
Again there is a clear distinction that nobody created God the Father (who is greater than all, according to Jesus, while still being true that the Son and the Father are ONE. John 10:29-30)

While Jesus the Son is BEGOTTEN from the Father or God as Creator.

So Jesus and God being ONE
does not mean Jesus "is the same as God" interchangeably in all contexts.

Your cited teaching DOES say these three are DISTINCT.

What causes the CONFUSION is saying ambiguous statements like "Jesus is God"
which can sound like "the two are the same" and raise objections if it sounds like you just voided your premise the three are distinct.

This is confusing enough trying to word it between fellow believers who know what we mean, and that we are referring to the one God.

It is intolerably confusing to others, to the point of invoking frustration, derision or cruelty to judge people for their reactions.

The most helpful use I have gotten from the Trinity teachings is in learning to align with other cultural languages, laws or tongues for expressing God's laws in parallel ways.

These are not "the same" either, but distinct expressions representing the relationship between God/Christ/Holy Spirit
"translated" into Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, Constitutionalism, in order to compare and understand the psychology of how other people or groups govern their relationships. And where Jesus as Authority of Law or Justice fulfills those laws as well to unify the three levels in each respective system.

That is how the Trinity teachings have helped me to communicate connect and share with others coming from secular or other religious backgrounds.
 

kcnalp

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God and Jesus are REPEATEDLY said to be our Savior in the Bible! Nobody else! They are ONE!

Gen 1:26 God said let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness.
 
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Emily Nghiem

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God and Jesus are REPEATEDLY said to be our Savior in the Bible! Nobody else! They are ONE!

Gen 1:26 God said let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness.
Yes they being distinct does not negate
them being ONE.

And man made in God's image
means we are mind body and spirit
Being human means all three.
These are also distinct, but the person
is ONE, not three persons.

Being distinct does not negate being ONE.
 

Wrangler

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If this was in the OT stages, that was before Jesus was incarnated and received by man.

True but not relevant. The OT shows 3 people, at least, were worshipped Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar and David. This destroys the trinitarian claim that only God is worshipped in the Bible.
 

Wrangler

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The ultimate meaning of establishing one faith in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit is to unite humanity

Jesus did not come to bring peace but to divide father against son, mother against daughter etc. Beyond that, some are going to ultimately burn in the Lake of Fire and therefore, be permanently separated from all humanity. Finally, requiring doctrinal purity ultimately divides humanity.
 

theefaith

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True but not relevant. The OT shows 3 people, at least, were worshipped Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar and David. This destroys the trinitarian claim that only God is worshipped in the Bible.
What verses?
 

theefaith

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True but not relevant. The OT shows 3 people, at least, were worshipped Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar and David. This destroys the trinitarian claim that only God is worshipped in the Bible.

is this worship?

1 kings 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
 

Wrangler

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What verses?

Again, Scripture says he was. Not sure why other translations use a synonym in v 16 but there it is. (And it is not the JW translation).

Bethsabee bowed herself, and worshipped the king.
1 Kings 1:16 (DRA, JUB, WYC)

By the power of Providence, I encountered 2 other men who were worshipped from the book of Daniel: Daniel & Nebuchadnezzar.

Then King Nebuchadnezzar threw himself down before Daniel and worshiped him
Daniel 2:46

When you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes, and other musical instruments, bow to the ground to worship King Nebuchadnezzar’s gold statue.
Daniel 3:5

The 3 verses in the OT where men were worshipped are:
1 Kings 1:16 (3 translations DRA, JUB, WYC)
Daniel 2:46
Daniel 3:5

The 3 men worshipped in the OT were David (by his servant), Daniel (by King Nebuchadnezzar) & King Nebuchadnezzar by most of his countrymen.
 

DPMartin

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We are like Jesus, in the flesh but with the Spirit of God in us, part of us is in heaven.
what are you talking about? Jesus says God is a Spirit, and that is what remains with God, if it be of God. flesh is nothing more than water and dirt, that returns to the ground.
 

Wrangler

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what are you talking about? Jesus says God is a Spirit, and that is what remains with God, if it be of God. flesh is nothing more than water and dirt, that returns to the ground.

Oh my, you are that much in need of milk huh? Let me give you this equation:

SOUL = BODY (flesh, dust) + SPIRIT (from God)

When we die, our life sustaining, God given Spirit returns to God, who is in heaven. By this means, part of us are in this world and part is with God in Heaven.

Jesus is totally NOT unique in this.
 

theefaith

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JW's do, maybe some others, but its not scriptural as you pointed out. maybe i missed something, but this is a debate on trinitarian theology.

I’m with you Jesus divine
Trinity one God three persons
 
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