Christian warfare

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Robert Gwin

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It appears that many feel it ok for Christians to participate in war. What does the Bible really teach, here are my notes if you are interested: Lets look at some scriptures in the NT to see if they support a Christian to participate in war. To support war some use Romans Chap 13:1-7 and Mat. 22:21, these are good scriptures to indicate that you should, although this makes one wonder why no Christian is recorded as having done so, maybe because the latter half of v21 says “but God’s things to God.” Consider too when the Jewish high court ordered the apostles to violate God’s law the apostles replied “We must obey God as ruler rather than man“ (Acts 5:29). The account in Romans and the account in Luke 22 are the only places that appear to support war, consider however that they may have been taken out of context when used in the way to support war.

Now we’ll examine some more direct scriptures from Jesus and the apostles relating to war and enemies in general. We have all heard of the golden rule, some may not know this is a teaching of Jesus found at Mat. 7:12 which states:12 “All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” Jesus did not say, do unto others as they do to you, but as you would like them to do to you. Granted this truly can be hard in today’s society, but remember if you want to be a Christian then you must obey scripture.

Jesus said of enemies: Matthew 5:43-47 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?

Jesus, our “model for you to follow his steps closely” (1 Pet. 2:21) did not participate in war although he said that a Christian would have enemies, clearly telling us how he wanted us to treat our enemies.

The apostle Paul wrote at: Romans 12:17-21 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” 20 But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good. Paul realized that throughout the history of God’s people and all the conflicts they had been in did nothing to relinquish war. He new man kinds only hope to end war was with Jehovah. It might be noted here too that Jehovah hates war, and will bring it to an end: Psalm 46:9 He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. How will He accomplish this? Read at Isaiah 34:2: For Jehovah has indignation against all the nations, and rage against all their army. He must devote them to destruction; he must give them to the slaughter. By destroying the nations and their armies at Armageddon, is how Jehovah will end war.

To contrast Christians with others a couple of scriptures come to mind, first lets look at John 13:34,35: 34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves. Did you notice how Christians would be identified, by the love they have among themselves. How does this play in with those who claim to be Christian, but kill their brothers in other lands?

Can this be justified? Notice to at: Galatians 6:10 Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to [us] in the faith. Does this fit in to killing our brothers in other lands? Jesus said: Matthew 7:15-16 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. These that appear to be Godlike but prove false to its power (2 Tim. 3:5) can be identified by their “fruits“, that is the things they do. What fruits would identify Christians?: Galatians 5:19-23 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. The contrast here is easy to see; to those who are not true Christians fits of anger, contentions, divisions, things that are prevalent in war. Real Christians however display the fruitages of the spirit, there’s no room here for a Christian to engage in war.

Now lets get more direct into conflicts it says at: Ephesians 6:13-17
On this account take up the complete suit of armor from God, that YOU may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after YOU have done all things thoroughly, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm, therefore, with YOUR loins girded about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and with YOUR feet shod with the equipment of the good news of peace. 16 Above all things, take up the large shield of faith, with which YOU will be able to quench all the wicked one’s burning missiles. 17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word.

Here the Bible pointed out the weapons a Christian would have, not the incomplete, but the complete suit of armor from God, no room for aggression here. Another scripture showing Christians will not fight: 2 Tim. 2:23-26 Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights. 24 But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, 25 instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, 26 and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.

There is one more point to consider; if you believe that we are living in the last days as many do, then true Christians would be “walking in God’s Paths” and “beating their swords into plowshares” Isa. 2:4. Also if it is the last days then satan and his hoards have “been going forth to the kings of the entire earth to gather them together” to battle God. Rev. 16:14 Sure wouldn’t want to be in the military then!
 

marks

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It appears that many feel it ok for Christians to participate in war.
The Bible is clear that God honors the defense of the defenseless. After that it's a matter for your conscience.

Many people have gone to war and freed those who were captive, and saved them from death.

War is just macro what is easily seen in micro. If you come to man about to murder a child, do you stand there and watch? "Don't return evil for evil?" Is that what that means? No.

Much love!
 
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Robert Gwin

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The Bible is clear that God honors the defense of the defenseless. After that it's a matter for your conscience.

Many people have gone to war and freed those who were captive, and saved them from death.

War is just macro what is easily seen in micro. If you come to man about to murder a child, do you stand there and watch? "Don't return evil for evil?" Is that what that means? No.

Much love!

Christians follow Jesus, what did he do sir? What did he do when he saw that man murder a child?
 

JohnDB

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There's other ways to make war...
Economic warfare has become the new model.

Israel has been waging an economic war against it's enemies for a while now. Even using electronic warfare when necessary. (Iran's nuclear power outage)

Making people poor with no hope for financial gain from their efforts.
(Payday loans, pawn shops, and real estate devaluation)

What about this sort of warfare?
 

marks

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Christians follow Jesus, what did he do sir? What did he do when he saw that man murder a child?
So let me see if I understand you. Are you saying that God does NOT want us to defend the defenseless? Is that your POV?

Of course we don't find such a circumstance described in the Gospels. I'm expecting that you know that.

Psalms 82:3-4 KJV
3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

What do you think? Should we obey?

Is that what it means to follow Jesus? To do what He says?

Much love!
 

Robert Gwin

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There's other ways to make war...
Economic warfare has become the new model.

Israel has been waging an economic war against it's enemies for a while now. Even using electronic warfare when necessary. (Iran's nuclear power outage)

Making people poor with no hope for financial gain from their efforts.
(Payday loans, pawn shops, and real estate devaluation)

What about this sort of warfare?
Hi John, there is no doubt the times we are living in are critical times 2 Tim 3:1. Christians are certainly not removed from the worldly influences that we have to deal with every day. What you mentioned may touch into the warfare that Christians are involved in and that is the spiritual war that we wage in keeping ourselves without spot from satan's world. The greed of the commercial aspect is something that we do get affected by, and have to deal with. Literal tampering with others business by means of electronic devices would be an act of war I am afraid, and I don't really think God would sanction it. But as an individual Christian you would certainly take precautions not to be attacked personally. We simply would not to be the aggressor that might bring harm to others, even if it is only financially.
 
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Robert Gwin

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So let me see if I understand you. Are you saying that God does NOT want us to defend the defenseless? Is that your POV?

Of course we don't find such a circumstance described in the Gospels. I'm expecting that you know that.

Psalms 82:3-4 KJV
3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

What do you think? Should we obey?

Is that what it means to follow Jesus? To do what He says?

Much love!

Not with guns sir. I agree that Christians are not exempt from those passages, but we would never take up weapons to defend them. Kind of a stretch to support Christian participation in war don't you think Marc.
 

marks

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Not with guns sir. I agree that Christians are not exempt from those passages, but we would never take up weapons to defend them. Kind of a stretch to support Christian participation in war don't you think Marc.
So this is to be obeyed if you can do it with your bare hands only?

That seems kind of a stretch to me, don't you think? It doesn't seem logical. Even Jesus made a whip of cords to defend His Father's honor.

Much love!
 

Wrangler

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It appears that many feel it ok for Christians to participate in war.

Of course it is OK for Christians to participate in war! Jesus himself said he did not come to bring peace and told us to arm ourselves.
Gospel of Matthew 10:34
Gospel of Luke 22:36-38

The idea that to be a Christian is to be a pacifist is rejected out of hand. The centuries of Christians fighting wars attest to the abomination of your proclamation. The Holy Crusades are a shinning Light in our politically correct world.
 

Wrangler

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Psalms 82:3-4 KJV
3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

we would never take up weapons to defend them.

You are lost! You are not welcome in my foxhole.


because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:16
 

Triumph1300

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The idea that to be a Christian is to be a pacifist is rejected out of hand. The centuries of Christians fighting wars attest to the abomination of your proclamation. The Holy Crusades are a shinning Light in our politically correct world.

I agree that as Christians we should fight the ones like Adolf Hitler's Nazi's and
other evil forces trying to take away our freedom.

But calling The Holy Crusades a shinning light is bizarre.
Have you read up on these crusades? Murder, rape, etc.
I highly doubt that Christ supports these kind of murderous acts.
 
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Robert Gwin

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So this is to be obeyed if you can do it with your bare hands only?

That seems kind of a stretch to me, don't you think? It doesn't seem logical. Even Jesus made a whip of cords to defend His Father's honor.

Much love!

You are free to do as you desire Marks, but it is best not to misrepresent Jesus sir. The fact is Jesus displayed absolutely no violence to any other human.
 

marks

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You are free to do as you desire Marks, but it is best not to misrepresent Jesus sir. The fact is Jesus displayed absolutely no violence to any other human.

That was the year of the LORD's favor.

Before that time, God did plenty! In fact, He even destroyed the entire population of the planet saving only 8 people. He destroyed nations for failing to help His people, and trying to hurt them instead. He's going to send who know how many into eternal torment for failing to help His people.

And He's told us His heart toward the fatherless, and the defenseless.

God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sins against them. Jesus said to the woman, neither do I condemn you. Do you suppose that will always be true? That God will not condemn sinners?

I don't.

Jesus has displayed more violence against humanity - the rebellious - than any human could ever dream, and He will do more in the time to come.

That Jesus came as our Savior then, not counting sins against us, not here as our judge, At That Time, in no wise gives justification to ignore His admonitions to us to free the weak from the hand of the wicked.

Oh, and of course you are free to do as you wish! I guess! And maybe you will have a change of heart should you see someone whom you could rescue being victimized.

Much love!
 

Robert Gwin

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That was the year of the LORD's favor.

Before that time, God did plenty! In fact, He even destroyed the entire population of the planet saving only 8 people. He destroyed nations for failing to help His people, and trying to hurt them instead. He's going to send who know how many into eternal torment for failing to help His people.

And He's told us His heart toward the fatherless, and the defenseless.

God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sins against them. Jesus said to the woman, neither do I condemn you. Do you suppose that will always be true? That God will not condemn sinners?

I don't.

Jesus has displayed more violence against humanity - the rebellious - than any human could ever dream, and He will do more in the time to come.

That Jesus came as our Savior then, not counting sins against us, not here as our judge, At That Time, in no wise gives justification to ignore His admonitions to us to free the weak from the hand of the wicked.

Oh, and of course you are free to do as you wish! I guess! And maybe you will have a change of heart should you see someone whom you could rescue being victimized.

Much love!

Nope! No change of heart for me. I fully realize that in the near future that Jehovah will send Jesus and the powerful angels to remove the wicked, 2 Thes 1:6-9, and I have no qualms with that as people will have been given the chance to know Jehovah and obey the gospel of Christ. I don't really like the fact that it will be the most horrific time period in history to live, but I fully realize that in the long run, that it will be the most beneficial for humans.

If God's Kingdom proves to be no better than satan's system, then hopefully I will have enough fortitude to stand against Him, and die. It would definitely explain why 1/3 of the angels rebelled. Time alone will answer the righteousness of God.
 

quietthinker

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So this is to be obeyed if you can do it with your bare hands only?

That seems kind of a stretch to me, don't you think? It doesn't seem logical. Even Jesus made a whip of cords to defend His Father's honor.

Much love!
The whip of cords I think was to move sedentary animals languishing in the sun, and that by cracking it. I doubt it was used on any people.
He overturned the tables of the money changers but was compassionate to the doves in cages by ordering them to be taken away.
 
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tsr

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Whenever this question is asked, the implication seems to be that war in the name of Christ is contrary to His mandate to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39).

Otherwise, why would anyone argue with the right to fight a religious war? To understand the “big picture,” we must first understand that the “turn the other cheek” passage is part of the Sermon on the Mount. Its messages pertain to individual believers. His famous sermon shows how believers should respond to temptation, injustice, and the everyday trials of life. It says nothing about warfare.

For some instruction regarding this, we must go to Romans 13, which discusses some of the purposes of government as well as the proper relationship between believers and government:

"… For it [government] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil." (Romans 13:4)

God has given the state the power of life and death over its subjects in order to maintain order. Government also has the right to protect its people from evil by wielding the same “sword” in warfare. Some will argue that God has commanded, “Thou shall not kill.”

Therefore Christians cannot engage in warfare. Actually, God’s command was against murder, not killing. Nowhere does the Bible say that believers should not join the military and thus, should not participate in defending their country. Numbers 25:8-13 is one of many Biblical accounts where killing was required to eradicate sin. However, the bottom line is that while the God of the Bible is a righteous judge, He is also a God of love and mercy Who detests the shedding of innocent human blood.
 

marks

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If God's Kingdom proves to be no better than satan's system, then hopefully I will have enough fortitude to stand against Him, and die. It would definitely explain why 1/3 of the angels rebelled. Time alone will answer the righteousness of God.
I think I'll not stand to close to you!

:eek:
 

marks

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The whip of cords I think was to move sedentary animals languishing in the sun, and that by cracking it. I doubt it was used on any people.
He overturned the tables of the money changers but was compassionate to the doves in cages by ordering them to be taken away.

John 2:13-16 KJV
13) And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14) And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15) And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

He drove them all out of temple, AND the sheep and oxen. I think Jesus drove the people too. All the sedentary animals languishing in the sun, not just the four legged ones.

I don't think I every really noticed about the doves, that He just ordered them taken away.

Much love!
 

quietthinker

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Therefore Christians cannot engage in warfare. Actually, God’s command was against murder, not killing. Nowhere does the Bible say that believers should not join the military and thus, should not participate in defending their country. Numbers 25:8-13 is one of many Biblical accounts where killing was required to eradicate sin. However, the bottom line is that while the God of the Bible is a righteous judge, He is also a God of love and mercy Who detests the shedding of innocent human blood.
I think we (humans) split hairs to suit our purposes like in kill/murder. Is it possible that all the genocidal mayhem recorded in the OT and attributed to God's command was actually another factor and not God at all?
 

quietthinker

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Nope! No change of heart for me. I fully realize that in the near future that Jehovah will send Jesus and the powerful angels to remove the wicked, 2 Thes 1:6-9, and I have no qualms with that as people will have been given the chance to know Jehovah and obey the gospel of Christ. I don't really like the fact that it will be the most horrific time period in history to live, but I fully realize that in the long run, that it will be the most beneficial for humans.

If God's Kingdom proves to be no better than satan's system, then hopefully I will have enough fortitude to stand against Him, and die. It would definitely explain why 1/3 of the angels rebelled. Time alone will answer the righteousness of God.
could it be that the wicked will remove themselves?