Saved By Grace Through FAITH ...

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theefaith

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It speaks of justification by faith. It tells us what God accounts for righteousness. It tells us that works are not accounted as grace to the one who works.

Tong
R3763

faith yes
Faith alone no
Works alone no
Faith and works in Christ thru grace

Is suffering faith alone? No

Christian suffering!

Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
 

Tong2020

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ong2020 said:
It’s not how can it be, but that, it is by grace and it is through faith.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Do you see what works get one to have, that is, what the one who works get out of his work? It is a wage or reward, which is counted as debt, and not counted as grace (χάρις, charis).

It must be clear then that any good work that the Christian does, what he gets is not grace, but a wage that is counted as debt (μισθός, mithos).

So, what is grace? It is not work nor it is what one gets out from his work.

Having said that, let’s go to the truth that the salvation of God is by grace, God’s grace. This truth is indisputable, as all truth are.

What are the obvious? One is that salvation is of God and not of man. Another is that the salvation of God is accomplished by God and not by man. Another is that the salvation of God is the work of God. And that the salvation of God is not by the working of man nor or it is by the works of man. For as had just been shown and explained, the salvation of God is by His grace and that grace is not work. That grace is not works, we have apostle Paul explaining that in the following passage:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Now it is also revealed in scriptures, about the salvation of God, that it is by grace through faith.

What do scriptures say as to why the salvation of God is through or by faith, and not by anything else such as not the works of the law of Moses, nor by the good works or by the working and works of the man?

Apostle Paul in Romans 4 was talking about the promise of God that He made to Abraham or to his seed, that he would be the heir of the world. Regarding this, Paul said that the promise was through the righteousness of faith. He went on to explain that it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.

So as can be seen, the point of the promises of God being of faith, is so that it might be according to GRACE, and further so that, it might be SURE.
Is this works
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
No. Those are about what it takes to be disciples of Christ. Not works, but heart.

Tong

R3764
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
He was speaking to the twelve disciples He have chosen. Do you not believe that those things had already been fulfilled?

Now, keep in mind what apostle Paul said concerning the gospel:

“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

Now, what gospel the apostles preached was written in scriptures. If someone, be it your Pope, your bishops, your priests, your brethren, or even be an angel from heaven, preach another gospel than what the apostles preached that is written in scriptures, do not be deceived and believe them, rather let them be accursed.
The other gospel is Protestantism came 1500 yrs later
Nope. It’s not time that is the basis whether what is preached is a perverted gospel or not.

Even during the time of the apostles, perverted versions of the gospel were already being preached.

Tong
R3765
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I don’t know about your Pope. It is your church who comes up with a Pope. Whether your Pope is valid or not, that concerns you and your church, not me. If there is such as an invalid Pope in your church, that could only be the fault and failure of your church and is your problem, not mine.

And during the times of failure and fault of your church, it would mean that during those times, your church have not a successor of Peter. And that who seats at the seat of Peter, is a fake successor, not a valid successor, seated no less by your church. And if invalid, everything he says in his official capacity as your Pope, is invalid as well. And if he is not a valid Pope, he is then a false Pope. But still, even so, your church kiss his hand and seek his blessings. Your church still give him the honor and respect of a valid Pope. Why? And if your Pope is the vicar of Christ, what is a false Pope? Would he not be a vicar of a false Christ?

May I ask you, is your present Pope an invalid Pope? If invalid, why do you say he is invalid? Or is that only your own opinion and not your church’s opinion, that he is an invalid Pope?
By their fruits you shall know them
What they teach
Irrelevant.

You have totally dodge everything I said and asked of you in my post.

Well, the reason is obvious. Can’t face it and give an answer.

<<<What they teach>>>

And he is your church’s Pope, the head and mouth of your church. What he teach is what your church believes and preach.

Tong
R3766
 
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theefaith

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No. Those are about what it takes to be disciples of Christ. Not works, but heart.

Tong
R3764

There’s a difference between Christians and disciples?

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

why I know thy works?
Are these works meritorious before God?
Why not I know thy faith?
 

theefaith

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Nope. It’s not time that is the basis whether what is preached is a perverted gospel or not.

Even during the time of the apostles, perverted versions of the gospel were already being preached.

Tong
R3765

the two edge sword of the apostles
To define truth and condemn errors

all you’re Protestant fundamentalism was condemned at the glorious apostolic council of Trent
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Well, a hundred times then I must say then, that is not the gospel the apostles preached. What gospel the apostles preach is about the person, life, works, death, and resurrection, ministry of Jesus, who was born of the virgin Mary, that He is the Son of God, the Christ, the Lord, the Savior. Apostle Paul says in relation to that, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”
It’s our gospel we wrote it, your faith alone gospel is the fake gospel
That’s what you claim. But if that were true, why is it that you preach something different?

Tong
R3767
 

Curtis

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Are you including the 10 commandments in the laws of Moses that we don't need to keep?
That’s correct, the Decalogue is called the covenant on two tables of stone, and the old covenant has ended being replaced by a new covenant founded on better promises.
The law of love with its subset of two love commands fulfills Gods royal law.
The two love commands are far superior to the ten.
 

theefaith

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That’s correct, the Decalogue is called the covenant on two tables of stone, and the old covenant has ended being replaced by a new covenant founded on better promises.
The law of love with its subset of two love commands fulfills Gods royal law.
The two love commands are far superior to the ten.

there were three laws
Jurisdictional: pasted to the apostles in government of the new covenant church
Moral: law
Ceremonial law: the ceremonial law is fulfilled nailed to the cross
The moral law is eternal: example
Eph 6:1
Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
 

TheslightestID

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That’s correct, the Decalogue is called the covenant on two tables of stone, and the old covenant has ended being replaced by a new covenant founded on better promises.
The law of love with its subset of two love commands fulfills Gods royal law.
The two love commands are far superior to the ten.

Yet we are we told that the law,including the 10 commandments hang on Jesus's commandments, meaning the commandments are everything the have always been, commandments, and part of Christs 2 commandments...

Matthew 22:37-40 ...'Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'

And if that doesn't convince you, there is no denying, a few verses prior to giving his 2 commandments, the man asked Christ what must he do in order to get to heaven, and Christ answered, keep the commandments.

Matthew 19:16-19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


See, it confuses things for some to say the commanments were done away with, in that those who are newbs might get the idea they can break them as often as they like. I have seen that attitude before, and especially because there is every indication they were not done away with.

Sure, Christ simplified them in his 2 commandments, and we get that, but it may take some awhile to grasp the fact so till then they need the simple and easy to understand set of rules, that we will always know as and, will always be, The Ten commandments.

I do agree with most everything else you said in the post in question.
 
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theefaith

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That’s what you claim. But if that were true, why is it that you preach something different?

Tong
R3767

Is this works? Paul teaching works
Reward works too


eph 6:1 children obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
 

Tong2020

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You still don’t get it. Paul’s emphasis is always that Christians do not have to do the works of the law of Moses. In that day many Jewish converts insisted that believers still had to circumcise and keep tha law of Moses.

It got so bad that all the apostles assembled a council in Jerusalem to deal with the huge controversy in Acts 15.

Paul worked hard to counter that claim about the need to still keep the law of Moses - thus he repeatedly makes reference to the fact that we do NOT have to keep the law of Moses nor do the works of the law of Moses.

When you read all of Paul’s epistles, it’s clear that when he mentions works, the law, works of the law, the law of Moses, or works of righteousness, he’s always talking about works of the law of Moses, a specific body of old covenant law with 613 laws, statutes, and commands, that all had to be kept for their righteousness.

To whit:
Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Thus when Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, he is specifically speaking about being saved by grace through faith, not by works of the law of Moses.

Romans 4:4 is thus talking about ‘to him who does the works of the law of Moses’, it’s not counted as grace, but of debt’ - meaning trying to be righteous by obeying all the statutes and commands of the law of Moses - which are no longer required under the new covenant.

Paul is clear we are not justified by doing the works of the law of Moses.

We dont have to sacrifice animals, keep ceremonial laws, new moons, seasons, feast days, or any of those 613 laws, statutes, and commands that are in the law of Moses.

Whereas James is not talking at all about works of the law of Moses for justification - he makes clear that the works that justify all men, are completely different from the works Paul emphasizes that we are NOT required to perform.

You can’t compare apples and oranges - you can’t quote Paul on being justified apart from works of the law of Moses, to prove we aren’t justified by works of love, in helping the needy, which James says fulfills the royal law of love, and perfects our faith, and makes it a living faith that saves, instead of a dead faith that doesn’t save.
He warns that if you’re not a doer of the word, instead of a being pew-occupying, do nothing hearer of the word only, who does not fulfill the Royal law, you deceive yourself right into hell, just like those Jesus sends to hell as workers of iniquity, because they ignored those who were hungry, naked, poor, sick and in prison:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What was their sin? They were not doers of the word, but were hearers only, and deceived themselves right into hell as workers of iniquity, by ignoring the need to fulfill the royal law of love, thus were never justified by the works of love and obedience., and their dead faith could not save them.

Works of the law of Moses are irrelevant in the book of James, therefore quoting Paul regarding works of the law of Moses, is equally irrelevant, and is comparing apples to oranges, and reaching a wrong conclusion.

<<<Romans 4:4 is thus talking about ‘to him who does the works of the law of Moses’, it’s not counted as grace, but of debt’ - meaning trying to be righteous by obeying all the statutes and commands of the law of Moses - which are no longer required under the new covenant.>>>

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Let’s put in what you say there in the passage. It will go like so:

“Now to him who does the works of the law of Moses, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Explain this part then “the wages are not counted as grace but as debt”.

Wages of what?

These wages, they are then counted as debt. Explain that.

Also, you speak of being justified by works, works that fulfills the royal law.

What is the royal law that James is referring to?


James 2: 8If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

James was referring to that law according to the Scriptures that goes “You shall love your neighbors as yourself”. What scriptures was James referring to? The Jewish scriptures, which we call the OT scriptures. So James is talking about the law of Moses, was he not? Also realize what James said in verse 9. That if you show partiality, which is a violation of the royal law, he said that you commit sin. Now what does the last part of verse 9 says regarding the sinner? He is convicted by the law. That puts the one who commit the sin judged by the law. What law? What else but the law of Moses. Verse 10 makes that even clearer.

So, why do you say “Works of the law of Moses are irrelevant in the book of James, therefore quoting Paul regarding works of the law of Moses, is equally irrelevant, and is comparing apples to oranges,”?

Tong
R3768
 

amigo de christo

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For your info: Your posts are way to long, I doubt anybody will read these long posts.
after reseaching the popes , i would not heed any of them .
Let us simply read our bibles and learn the pattern Christ and later the apostels would set .
And always be praising and thanking the Lord .
 

theefaith

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after reseaching the popes , i would not heed any of them .
Let us simply read our bibles and learn the pattern Christ and later the apostels would set .
And always be praising and thanking the Lord .

that won’t put you in the new covenant church
 

amigo de christo

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that won’t put you in the new covenant church
You mean it wont put me in the RCC . Lambs are already in the new covenant church . And lambs wont follow the RCC my friend .
Faith without works is dead , its not real faith at all . I had that kind of faith once . Praise GOD
for His life saving and life changing grace that truly converted my heart . And yeah , it kept me safe and far from the RCC
and many other churches as well .
Let me leave you with a message . Due to i do care about your soul . COME YE OUT FROM AMONGST THE RCC ,
touch not the unclean thing, be not partakers of their sins and let none beguile you in worshipping angels , saints and etc .
Come ye out and never look back . Hurry my friend . Time is truly running out and no man knows their final hour either .
 

theefaith

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You mean it wont put me in the RCC . Lambs are already in the new covenant church . And lambs wont follow the RCC my friend .
Faith without works is dead , its not real faith at all . I had that kind of faith once . Praise GOD
for His life saving and life changing grace that truly converted my heart . And yeah , it kept me safe and far from the RCC
and many other churches as well .
Let me leave you with a message . Due to i do care about your soul . COME YE OUT FROM AMONGST THE RCC ,
touch not the unclean thing, be not partakers of their sins and let none beguile you in worshipping angels , saints and etc .
Come ye out and never look back . Hurry my friend . Time is truly running out and no man knows their final hour either .

then what is the initiation into the new covenant?
 

amigo de christo

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With all the gospels and all the letters from the apostels , you never once heard
then what is the initiation into the new covenant?
Faith in the biblical Christ . AND if our CHRIST truly is JESUS , then we would be hearers and doers
of all things HE taught and later the apostles taught . Its real simple my friend .
Any true lamb is a hearer and a doer . If not they have deceived themselves and are following another jesus , another gospel
and rest assured its the doctrines of men gone wrong .
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
No. Those are about what it takes to be disciples of Christ. Not works, but heart.
There’s a difference between Christians and disciples?
Why do you ask?

Do you not know what a disciple (Greek, mathétés) is?

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

why I know thy works?
Are these works meritorious before God?
Why not I know thy faith?
What has this to do with the issue we are talking about?

Tong
R3769
 

theefaith

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With all the gospels and all the letters from the apostels , you never once heard

Faith in the biblical Christ . AND if our CHRIST truly is JESUS , then we would be hearers and doers
of all things HE taught and later the apostles taught . Its real simple my friend .
Any true lamb is a hearer and a doer . If not they have deceived themselves and are following another jesus , another gospel
and rest assured its the doctrines of men gone wrong .

so you have the honor!