Biggest mistake of the church and we need to go back

Ronald David Bruno · Jun 24, 2021

Jay Ross said:
Ronald, why attach the person rather than provide a convincing argument as to what Paul had actually written in the Greek Text and provide the context of the actual words themselves. Is it because that is the only defence you know of and can use to defend your post above.

As for lumping me with the, and I assume, SDA's or Jehovah Witnesses, please be advised that I do not fit any of those cults like I do not fit into the Pre-Trib Cult or the reformational cults either.

I can only perceive that your rebuttal demonstrated your lack of a knowledge base to provide the basis as to how the English translation of the Greek Text should have been paraphrased in your opinion. I presented how I would paraphrase the last portion of verse 25, why do you not present your case based on the interlinear Greek word definitions provided above.

As for ripping this particular page out of my Bible and forgetting it, I have not done that. What I have done is provided the rational as to why I believe that your accepted "Paraphrase" of Paul's words is not the case as you have presented them.

I would welcome your words of wisdom if you can provide the evidence to cause me to change my understanding.

Providing the evidence for me to change my mind will go much further and achieve much more than simply just personal attacks on my person.

I await your more reasoned rebuttal.

Shalom

We have a very fine scholary collection of English Bible versions. Teams of scholars, experts in Christian theology, history, Koene Greek, Hebrew, Hermeneutics, etc., worked on these translations for years to get what we have today.
I use a half dozen versions myself. Sometimes I look at the Greek, but usually it is not neccessary - the work has been done already! I read the text and the Holy Spirit helps me to discern it. I'll examine other translations and compare them. You must be born again to discern scripture, might as well throw away your Greek Interlineary if you are not.
I think we had a debate a while back. Something is off about your Bible views - can't recall if you are Preterist, Non-trinitarian, Unitarian?
If you are in any one of those groups, I that explains it.
Just read Romans 11 and take the literal meaning. It is not to be taken symbolically. Words are very simple. You should be able to read them without having to look them up.
I've explained it over and over again. It is simple. You don't accept it, I don't care. I will not waste time and decipher every word. You remind me of Bill Clinton when they asked him if he had sex with Monica. He said, "Define sex?" Then later, "Define is". By golly, he had them looking it up, confused... and it worked for him.
If you think the Jews won't get saved - I don't care.
If and when you think it's going to happen - I don't care either. Don't care to debate with you. You'll find out soon enough.
What does Romans 11:25 mean?
I'm done here.

NayborBear · Jun 25, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
!

Well you communicate in a round about way, like a poet or trying to present the case as if you are Sherlock Holmes.
You already concluded what this was all about in your first post:
"In conclusion?
God BLESS those parents in Louden County, Virginia."
Far out man ... deep.
Oh, and your statement, "all the inhibitions you keep placing, not only in the Father's way, but also the government that Christ bares on His shoulders from "giving increase!"
What the check are you talking about?
Beam me up Scotty!

Well? It's people like you, that make people like us, argue with people like you!
Cuz ya don't know what you're doin'.
Stony grounded Christians teaching others to be stony grounded Christians.
Ezekiel 13:
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Because of a narrow mindedness that comes when a believer starts feeling out of place and starts asking himself questions such as this
1 Corinthians 12:
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
With mindsets such as stony grounded christians have? It is little wonder why there are so many denominations around.
And, why fewer and fewer people are attending "churches of stone!"

Ronald David Bruno · Jun 25, 2021

NayborBear said:
Well? It's people like you, that make people like us, argue with people like you!
Cuz ya don't know what you're doin'.
Stony grounded Christians teaching others to be stony grounded Christians.
Ezekiel 13:
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Because of a narrow mindedness that comes when a believer starts feeling out of place and starts asking himself questions such as this
1 Corinthians 12:
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
With mindsets such as stony grounded christians have? It is little wonder why there are so many denominations around.
And, why fewer and fewer people are attending "churches of stone!"

My seed was planted in fertile soil, the Holy Spirit has confirmed that with fruit that I demonstrate in life - you don't know me!
You can test yourself though. Be honest. Do you possess any of this fruit: Love, joy, hope, faith, peace, patience, goodness, self control, gentleness?
A good tree bears good fruit. A bad tree bears no fruit or rotten fruit.
Seed that is planted in shallow soil or rocky soil doesn't grow to produce good fruit. It may grow partially, but the roots don't go deep; it is not.cared for and nourished properly and when the trials come in life, they don't survive, they wither and die.
Well.Ive had some trials in my 30+ years as a Christian and my faith is solid.
We have been tested mildly in this last year, the next year will be a greater test. Hope you can hold on, because your faith will be tested - along with whatever other fruit you possess.
So in essence, a stony Christian is not a Christian at all. Christians are those who have been born again, and therwdire produce fruit.
Looking at your avatar, are you mocking thus hating Catholics and from your argument against Jews being saved probably anti-Semitic? What kind of fruit is that?

Robert Gwin · Jun 25, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Well the Bible does not contradict itself and Jesus is not a liar!

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

We both know Lord here is Yahweh in the original Hebrew.

2 People called Yahweh.
Yahweh 1--King of Israel
Yahweh 2 Yahweh of hosts who is Yahweh #1's redeemer for Israel and gentiles.

Yes sir I agree

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Altered Bible, same version did not capitalize God at Acts 28:6, deliberate manipulation which contradicts other passages of the Bible.
John 5:17-19
King James Version

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Yes sir, Jesus said it himself. He is not the Father, rather imitates him, as we disciples do as well.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Again a deliberately manipulated version of the Bible, it was talking about Jesus as we will likely agree, but your version translated God, when it simply stated who
As you see- the bible does not contradict itself, Jesus does not lie and the Bible declares Jesus God!

For the sake of argument, if Jesus is God then how do you justify Mrk 10:40 and 13:32?

Robert Gwin · Jun 25, 2021

Curtis said:
Who is Jesus?
My answer is the same as Peters sir. Jesus asked that question to his close disciples, saying. Who are people saying the son of man is. I say he is the Christ, the living son of God, the same as Peter stated, and Jesus told him that God revealed that to him, as I believe He did to me as well.

There is no doubt in anyones mind who is honest that a liar and deceiver would ever be righteous, in fact the Bible is quite against it. Jesus taught us who God is, and it wasn't himself. If he is God Himself, then what hope do we have Curt? That would basically nullify the entire Bible.

Jesus is the one born of a virgin in Isaiah, who is the mighty God and everlasting Father. Isaiah 9:6

He is co-creator of the world, and of everything that was made in the beginning in Genesis 1.

John 1:1,10,14 Colossians 1:16-17

To leave heaven and come to earth as a man, He voluntarily left the form of God that He had by His nature, and emptied Himself, setting aside all use of His divine power, and took the form of a humble servant. Philippians 2:6-7

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but EMPTIED himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

After He left Gods form to take mans form, Yahweh became the Father of Jesus when He made a body for Him to be born in.
Hebrews 10:5

Mary is the woman chosen by God to birth the body Yahweh made.

As a man on earth who set aside all use of His divine power, Jesus didn’t start His ministry of healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out demons, until He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Matthew 3:17

He thereafter did His miracles by the Dunamis power of the Holy Spirit, that Father Yahweh anointed Him with. Acts 10:38

His main purpose for coming to earth as a man, was to to call sinners unto repentance; and give His life a ransom for many.
Luke 5:32 Mark 10:45

He died physically on a cross, the sinless one for sinners, and took our place.

While His physical body was in a tomb on the surface of the earth, His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, where He preached to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19 ; Ephesians 4:9-10

These spirits were the Old Testament righteous dead, who were held in a holding chamber in hades, because no soul could ascend to heaven until Messiah atoned for sins.

This chamber was called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, which is where the thief on the cross went. Luke 16:22-26

When He rose, he emptied out paradise, which is why many saints also arose and went into the city after His resurrection. Matthew 27 53

His resurrection was bodily, and He appeared for 40 days to His followers before He ascended visibly and bodily to heaven on a cloud from Mount Olive - and this same Jesus will return to mount Olive at His second coming, exactly the same as He left, and will bring all the saints from heaven, with Him. Zechariah 14:5

Now paradise is in heaven, and souls of the redeemed go straight to heaven, and Jesus will bring those souls from heaven with Him at His second coming to receive their resurrected bodies. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Ronald David Bruno · Jun 25, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
For the sake of argument, if Jesus is God then how do you justify Mrk 10:40 and 13:32?

God emptied Himself into a human. He relinquished His glory temporarily, and appeared as a man, a suffering servant on a mission to save the world. Only God can save the world, wash away their sins. He was obedient and submissive to the Father. On the cross, He asked for the Father to return His glory as He was glorified before. So when Jesus fulfilled His task, died and rose, the Father returned His glory, giving Him all authority in heaven and on earth ( which requires omnipitenace, omniscience and omnipresence). Then Jesus new all, He returned to His Almighty status. He is the Creator (Col. 1:16, 17) He is the exact reflection and illumination of the Father, the exact essence of God. You cant be exactly like God unless you are God.

NayborBear · Jun 25, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
My seed was planted in fertile soil, the Holy Spirit has confirmed that with fruit that I demonstrate in life - you don't know me!
You can test yourself though. Be honest. Do you possess any of this fruit: Love, joy, hope, faith, peace, patience, goodness, self control, gentleness?
A good tree bears good fruit. A bad tree bears no fruit or rotten fruit.
Seed that is planted in shallow soil or rocky soil doesn't grow to produce good fruit. It may grow partially, but the roots don't go deep; it is not.cared for and nourished properly and when the trials come in life, they don't survive, they wither and die.
Well.Ive had some trials in my 30+ years as a Christian and my faith is solid.
We have been tested mildly in this last year, the next year will be a greater test. Hope you can hold on, because your faith will be tested - along with whatever other fruit you possess.
So in essence, a stony Christian is not a Christian at all. Christians are those who have been born again, and therwdire produce fruit.
Looking at your avatar, are you mocking thus hating Catholics and from your argument against Jews being saved probably anti-Semitic? What kind of fruit is that?

Ya see how narrow minded you and ones like you are? That have become blinded by traditions and precepts of men, to a point that Because I disagreed with the timeline you presented, you are now of a mindset that I don't believe Israel will ever be saved, or grafted in.....again?
So focused on evangelizing the whole earth, and believing they are doing their righteous service, to the point of forsaking the fields that are within their own souls and in their churches of stone!
Oh! Such foolish virgins that give their oil to every passer byer. Not realizing that God sends these passer byers just to see how foolish, and sometimes silly, or stupid they become in "knocking themselves over" to be the first one/s at the scene!
Did not even Jesus himself say that His name will not be spread throughout all the earth before his return?
Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

As far as trials go?
I've had trials long before I even realized there were trials. Some pert near 69 years now!

Ronald Nolette · Jun 25, 2021

Jesus said His Father revealed it to Peter.

Yes Yahweh the Father is both the Father and god of Jesus! but that does not negate the fact that Jesus is fully God Himself in essence or nature.

John declared the truth when He wrote Jesus was equal to God.

Thomoas spoke the truth in John 20 when He declared Jesus His Lord and God!

NayborBear · Jun 25, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Jesus said His Father revealed it to Peter.

Yes Yahweh the Father is both the Father and god of Jesus! but that does not negate the fact that Jesus is fully God Himself in essence or nature.

John declared the truth when He wrote Jesus was equal to God.

Thomoas spoke the truth in John 20 when He declared Jesus His Lord and God!

Then allow me ask you if these are also "mysteries."
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

By what power?
And when are those who believe on his name supposed to use this power?
Would one know if one had or possessed this power?
Interesting questions. Are they not?
But not questions to be asked if one doesn't wish them answered.
Would you agree?

Luke 12:
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Ronald Nolette · Jun 25, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
For the sake of argument, if Jesus is God then how do you justify Mrk 10:40 and 13:32?

Well you are mistaking the persons of the trinity with the nature or essence of the Trinity.

Jesus is referring ot HIs Father. there is no argument that the Father is above the Son in the position of exaltation in the Trinity. However that does not negate the fact that in nature Jesus is just AS MUCH GOD, OR DIVINE IF IT IS LESS CONFUSING, as His Father. Just like you and I are equally human though different, so isn't Jesus equally divine though different.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 25, 2021

NayborBear said:
Then allow me ask you if these are also "mysteries."
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

By what power?
And when are those who believe on his name supposed to use this power?
Would one know if one had or possessed this power?
Interesting questions. Are they not?
But not questions to be asked if one doesn't wish them answered.
Would you agree?

Luke 12:
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Well that power is not power as you understand it. but in the Greek it means authority! When one believes on Jesus He is authorized to become a son of God!

The greek word is exousia which authority or right. The power you are thinking of is dunamis

You should know that this authority has happened if you believe on Jesus.

And I know not the purpose of the verses you posted.

Curtis · Jun 25, 2021

NayborBear said:
Then allow me ask you if these are also "mysteries."
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

By what power?
And when are those who believe on his name supposed to use this power?
Would one know if one had or possessed this power?
Interesting questions. Are they not?
But not questions to be asked if one doesn't wish them answered.
Would you agree?

Luke 12:
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

If Jesus isn’t divine - if the son of God is not God the Son - then Yahweh erred by commanding the angels to worship Jesus, and the risen Jesus sinned by letting Thomas and the other apostles worship Him:

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

If Jesus knew that He wasn’t divinity he should have reacted like Peter did when they worshipped him:

Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man

So you decide: is Jesus a sinner for letting himself be worshipped?

Did Yahweh err by breaking a His own command to worship God only?

Or is the Sin of God also God the Son?

Horses beget horses - not hamsters.

Dogs beget dogs, not cats.

Like begets like.

Any begotten Son of God, will be, by definition, God the Son.

Now you know why they sought to stone Jesus for saying He’s the son of God - He asked them what reason they wanted to stone Him for - they answered, for claiming to be God.

They knew what being Gods son means.

Robert Gwin · Jun 26, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
God emptied Himself into a human. He relinquished His glory temporarily, and appeared as a man, a suffering servant on a mission to save the world. Only God can save the world, wash away their sins. He was obedient and submissive to the Father. On the cross? He asked for the Father to return His glory as He was glorified before. So when Jesus fulfilled His task, died and rose, the Father return His glory, giving Him all authority in heaven and on earth ( which requires omnipitenace, omniscience and omnipresence). Then Jesus new all, He returned to His Almighty status. He is the Creator (Col. 1:16, 17) He is the exact reflection and illumination of the Father, the exact essence of God. You cant be exactly like God unless you are God.

All perfect beings will do everything within Jehovah's guidelines sir. Jesus was sent, and fully displayed all that Jehovah would have done if He would have came Himself. That is what the verse is trying to indicate to us. Could you imagine how silly it would have been for satan to offer God all the kingdoms of the world to worship him?

Do you have an answer for my question Ron? You are not indicating that because Jesus accepted a lower form that it was ok for him to lie and deceive correct? Obviously we can trust his word to be truth, so how do you justify what he said?

Robert Gwin · Jun 26, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Jesus said His Father revealed it to Peter.

Yes Yahweh the Father is both the Father and god of Jesus! but that does not negate the fact that Jesus is fully God Himself in essence or nature.

John declared the truth when He wrote Jesus was equal to God.

Thomoas spoke the truth in John 20 when He declared Jesus His Lord and God!

Fact? Not quite sir. Thomas was an apostle sir, a Jew by birth and fully knew who Jehovah is. Your version of the Bible was one that actually put the exclamation point at the end of his statement. Why? Because he fully realized that Jesus was actually Jesus, how many times have you used that very term, My God, when you are excited? Jesus stated very clearly who God is, and who we are to worship and serve Mat 4:10

Ronald David Bruno · Jun 26, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Could you imagine how silly it would have been for satan to offer God all the kingdoms of the world to worship him?

What makes you think that Satan really knew Who He was talking to when He tempted Jesus? What makes you think that God revealed His plan of Salvation from the beginning to Satan? Satan probably has the Bible memorized - but he does not have discernment, he really didnt understand Messianic prophecies: "Okay this is the day I I'm supposed to come into Judas and betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver so that God's plan will be fulfilled". No, Satan did not have a clue!
Jesus did not regard equality with God something that man would grasp (as you don't); so why would Satan grasp it either. Satan, if he knew God's plan of becoming a man, to sacrifice himself for our sins, wouldn't He try to thwart God's plan from happening?. Yes. What actually happened is that Satan had no idea that Christ's death and resurrection on the Cross would result in saving the world. No, Satan fueled hatred towards Christ, came into Judas to betray Jesus and fueled hatred among the Pharisees and the mob to kill him. Satan thought he was thwarting God's plan , (probably of Jesus becoming king as the Jews expected too); when all along, he was assisting God. Satan was duped. If Satan new God's plan from the start and did all that He did to see that God's plan was completed, then he is not evil at all, just plahimg a part, working for God behind evil, a mission assigned to him.

And then he would not have tried to tempt Jesus to throw himself off the cliff if he had knowledge of God's plan. It is fascinating that in God's sovereignty, every move of Satan is factored in.
Satan can't hurt any of us without God's permission (see Job), this seems odd, thinking that Satan should be totally rebellious, but he is not. He is under God's authority, to administer calamity, destruction, death, only if God ordains it. He is on a leash. This is a mysterious thing to me, but it is true.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 26, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Fact? Not quite sir. Thomas was an apostle sir, a Jew by birth and fully knew who Jehovah is. Your version of the Bible was one that actually put the exclamation point at the end of his statement. Why? Because he fully realized that Jesus was actually Jesus, how many times have you used that very term, My God, when you are excited? Jesus stated very clearly who God is, and who we are to worship and serve Mat 4:10

You have bought th eWatchtower lie well! but in ancient Israel to declarer Elohim as a word of exclamation would have been blasphemy! Sorry but that lame excuse won't walk even with Crutches!

IN a hebrew bible thomas Declared The Lord of Me and the god of me! Hew used the definite articles in both Lord and god!

Now all you have to do is prove that the exclamation point in nearly every English translation was deceptively and conspiratorially moved. Ball is in your court sir!

It is easy to make sill statements like Thomas was surpised and said like we do "Oh my God"! but anyone with a scintilla of knowledge of 1st Century Judaism knows a good Jew (and at this point Thomas had becfome a good jew) would never say this as an exlcamamtion. Sir! that is fact.

Robert Gwin · Jun 27, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
What makes you think that Satan really knew Who He was talking to when He tempted Jesus? What makes you think that God revealed His plan of Salvation from the beginning to Satan? Satan probably has the Bible memorized - but he does not have discernment, he really didnt understand Messianic prophecies: "Okay this is the day I I'm supposed to come into Judas and betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver so that God's plan will be fulfilled". No, Satan did not have a clue!
Jesus did not regard equality with God something that man would grasp (as you don't); so why would Satan grasp it either. Satan, if he knew God's plan of becoming a man, to sacrifice himself for our sins, wouldn't He try to thwart God's plan from happening?. Yes. What actually happened is that Satan had no idea that Christ's death and resurrection on the Cross would result in saving the world. No, Satan fueled hatred towards Christ, came into Judas to betray Jesus and fueled hatred among the Pharisees and the mob to kill him. Satan thought he was thwarting God's plan , (probably of Jesus becoming king as the Jews expected too); when all along, he was assisting God. Satan was duped. If Satan new God's plan from the start and did all that He did to see that God's plan was completed, then he is not evil at all, just plahimg a part, working for God behind evil, a mission assigned to him.

And then he would not have tried to tempt Jesus to throw himself off the cliff if he had knowledge of God's plan. It is fascinating that in God's sovereignty, every move of Satan is factored in.
Satan can't hurt any of us without God's permission (see Job), this seems odd, thinking that Satan should be totally rebellious, but he is not. He is under God's authority, to administer calamity, destruction, death, only if God ordains it. He is on a leash. This is a mysterious thing to me, but it is true.

You are reaching Ron, it is fine to disagree, as we are obviously going to. satan knew Jesus was the Messiah, I truly do not think there was any doubt about it. satan is an infinitely superior being than we are, look at how our knowledge has soared since he has been cast to the earth. His interaction with Jesus was well thought out, if you realize what is at stake for him.

Robert Gwin · Jun 27, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
You have bought th eWatchtower lie well! but in ancient Israel to declarer Elohim as a word of exclamation would have been blasphemy! Sorry but that lame excuse won't walk even with Crutches!

IN a hebrew bible thomas Declared The Lord of Me and the god of me! Hew used the definite articles in both Lord and god!

Now all you have to do is prove that the exclamation point in nearly every English translation was deceptively and conspiratorially moved. Ball is in your court sir!

It is easy to make sill statements like Thomas was surpised and said like we do "Oh my God"! but anyone with a scintilla of knowledge of 1st Century Judaism knows a good Jew (and at this point Thomas had becfome a good jew) would never say this as an exlcamamtion. Sir! that is fact.

What I say is either the truth or lie sir. I stand on what I said, and I state openly it was a deliberate manipulation to the Bible. You have to make the choice as to who God is. I say He is Jehovah. If Jesus is God, he obviously was a great deceiver and liar, therefore the world can be no other way than what it is now. Our extinction will be the future. I choose to think however, that Jesus is actually the son of God, and that the Bible is very accurate in what has already proven true, and the yet to be fulfilled, I have full confidence in.

Ronald David Bruno · Jun 27, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
You are reaching Ron, it is fine to disagree, as we are obviously going to. satan knew Jesus was the Messiah, I truly do not think there was any doubt about it. satan is an infinitely superior being than we are, look at how our knowledge has soared since he has been cast to the earth. His interaction with Jesus was well thought out, if you realize what is at stake for him.

I am reaching, because the Bible is not so explicit about what Satan is or is not aware of. I think he is on a need to know basis. He is not omniscient, omnipresent or omnipotent. He was given certain abilities and power but the blueprints of God's plan of salvation for man? Doubt it.Why? Because of his temptations,and actions towards Jesus and His mission - he actually contributed to the death and resurrection unbeknownst to him. God has been using him all along to. God js in,co,trip of evil and allkws it for a purpose - that's not reaching.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 27, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
What I say is either the truth or lie sir. I stand on what I said, and I state openly it was a deliberate manipulation to the Bible. You have to make the choice as to who God is. I say He is Jehovah. If Jesus is God, he obviously was a great deceiver and liar, therefore the world can be no other way than what it is now. Our extinction will be the future. I choose to think however, that Jesus is actually the son of God, and that the Bible is very accurate in what has already proven true, and the yet to be fulfilled, I have full confidence in.

then sir you are a liar!

I asked you evidence for the manipulation and you refused. Why??

Jesus is not His Father But He is equally divine as His Father He is God the Son. This refers to His nature or essence. He is subserivent to His Father in position and exaltation, but equal to His Father in nature.

No it is Charles Taze Russell, Judge Rutherford, Joseph Franz and the governing bodies that are liars. They have deceived you and millions of others with their very sophisticated lies and half truths.

If you studied original languages side by side with English, you will find it is the Watchtower bible and Tract Society that has deliberately with malice aforethought manipulated and twisted Scriptures. they are not ewntering the kingdom and they are keeping millions from entering in as well.

Biggest mistake of the church and we need to go back

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads