Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

atpollard said:

So why doesn't the POPE and CARDINALS and BISHOPS and PRIESTS exercise their same power and authority and ministry as Jesus Christ and cure all of the sick and heal all of the lame and raise all of the murdered in their congregations?

Could it be because you are lying about the power and authority that you claim God has given you?

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The only authority and power they have is personal rule over their followers. And the devil loves it.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Eph 6)

I believe we can now term the Catholic religion as having low priests in high places.

Eternally Grateful said:

This is all fine and dandy

We are still NOT to judge a person

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I agree. And no-one is judging when I say that , quote, The ten commandments... Is still an active and reliable and holy standard for righteousness.

robert derrick said:

Ok, Good. I like great plainness of speech. Now you have my full attention.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Col 2)

1. So Sabbath days are a shadow of things to come, but they never were a shadow of anything to do with remedial activity to the sin issue, because it was instituted before sin was an issue.

-What is remedial activity to the sin issue...which I think is connected with being an type or antitype. Not sure what you mean there. It is connected with being an antitype.

-Are you making difference between a shadow of things to come vs a shadow of remedial activity to sin?

2. Where does "Let no man therefore judge you" fit in, or does it not apply to sabbaths in the verse? Is Sabbath days exempted from the verse?

3. You call the Sabbath day a holy day, so sabbath days the same as holydays in the verse? So that they must also be exempted?


Thanks, I do appreciate it. I want to know as much as possible exactly what you believe.

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Okay, cool. I'll explain.
The first Sabbath as we all know was instituted at creation, for, being the reason why, in six days the Lord created the heaven and earth and everything that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Now some say that that first seventh day was alone. That there is no command or evidence that the Sabbath continued in a weekly fashion. Yet the very existence of the seven day weekly cycle refutes that argument. Not to mention Exodus 16, which before the law was written, revealed an already existing Sabbath concerning which the Lord was reminding Israel to observe... To see if they will keep my judgments and my statues and my laws.
Then came sin. We don't know how long after creation sin entered the world. It doesn't matter. But sin changed everything. It destroyed relationships, and it brought death. So God needed to remedy the situation. First, He promised a savior. Speaking to Satan He said, He shall bruise your head. Later, He killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve. All sorts of imagery and symbols in there. The sacrificing of animals became the accepted true expression of faith in a coming Savior. A Savior who would Himself die in our place.
When Israel was established at Sinai, God revealed to them the gospel. He did that through the imagery and symbolism of the sanctuary service, the various feast days and rituals surrounding the offerings, and the work of the priest and High Priest in the sanctuary itself. All conveyed deep spiritual meaning and spiritual realities that were to teach object lessons regarding man's need of a savior, and God's mercy and grace in providing Him.
The feast days were particularly rich in meaning and depth. Each different day was to convey truths regarding the ministry of Messiah. The savior. We are all familiar with Passover. But there's also the wave sheaf, pentecost, atonement and Tabernacles, all integral to the gospel message, all essential components to the way of salvation for not only Israel, but the whole world because Jesus, the true Messenger or Angel of the covenant, came to fulfill every single detail of that original pictorial portrayal of the gospel to Israel, and Jesus came not just for Israel, but He came to save the world from sin. Those sabbaths, those yearly feast days, were the shadows spoken of by Paul in his letter. In the OT, strangers, that is people outside of Israel, were always welcome to join in the benefits of the sanctuary services and the gospel portrayed thereby, but Israel through it's self centeredness and introverted way shut them out. This was never God's intention.
Anyway. The sabbaths of those feast days were a part of the gospel remedy for the sin problem. They were separate and distinct to the weekly Sabbath. They fell on specific days of the calendar. There were three in the autumn, and I think four in the spring. I might have that back to front. Sorry, just writing from memory. But each one of those feast days were to find literal fulfillment in the future. Shadows of things to come. They were a prophecy. Each day was a prophecy of an event which would take place in the future which would accomplish righteousness, atonement, peace, forgiveness, mercy, grace and eternal life for mankind. And all of them accomplished in and through Christ. We've seen most of them fulfilled. One is in the process of being fulfilled now, the last one will be in the new earth.
The weekly Sabbath was never a part of the gospel... The remedy for sin. The weekly Sabbath was instituted before sin. It continued after sin. And it will continue in the new earth long after the gospel is completed in the final removal of sin and death from all creation. The weekly Sabbath is as long enduring as the law itself. And in observing and accepting the Sabbath in ones life, one is revealing that God has authority as Creator and Savior in your life.
Observing the Sabbath, just as one observes any other Commandment, is not a means by which one gets to be saved, but obedience reveals that one is saved.
Now you will likely ask, does that mean that because I don't keep the Sabbath I am not saved? Not at all. I was not always a Sabbath keeper. I've been a Christian for over 45 years. I didn't immediately become a Sabbath keeper. Nor did I immediately overcome lust, greed, selfishness, covetousness, or idolatry. I didn't know what righteousness was...I didn't know what sanctification was... But right at the beginning of my Christian walk I asked God to make my life one He would approve of. So began a journey. Accepting the relevance and importance of the Sabbath was a part of that journey. It may not be a part of your journey. Yet. But we must be open to where the Spirit leads us.
There is no justification in scripture for setting aside any of God's Commandments. Not even the Sabbath.

robert derrick said:

It is clear that in the new heaven and the new earth, where all can see the carcasses in the lake of fire, that all flesh will come to worship the Lord from one new moon and from one sabbath to another.

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I have an issue with this, for numerous reasons, but leave it for another time and place.

Backlit said:

I agree. And no-one is judging when I say that , quote, The ten commandments... Is still an active and reliable and holy standard for righteousness.

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It does not even come close to the standard for righteousness. It is called the minister of death for a reason we can not even keep it

start to focus on the law of love if you want to see Gods standard,

robert derrick said:

So, I see you are not serious person.

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Not they which used to do such things, but are now washed.

Since you're not a serious person, and I actually needed to go over the painfully obvious with you, then I'll not bother with you anymore.

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You ignored my question.

“Do you sin?”

The difficulty is not that I am not serious.
I am being very serious.
The problem we are having is that you are not being honest.
It is the fallacy of the false dilemma (aka excluded middle) to imply that one must EITHER be “fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers” or “sinless”.

If you claim that Christians CANNOT SIN, then only those living lives of SINLESS PERFECTION are Christian. That is an unbiblical teaching that I SERIOUSLY object to and stand willing to fight against to protect any weaker brothers that might be reading along.

Perhaps the TITLE is unfortunately written, but here are some questions to ponder:

• If a Christian tells a “LIE” is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?
• If a Christian “STEALS” something (even a pen from the office) is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?
  
• If a Christian “FORNICATES” (sex outside of marriage) is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?

Is that REALLY what you believe? No christian can EVER “Lie, Steal or Fornicate” without immediately loosing their salvation. Where is the verse that teaches that? The verses that teach that Christians do not live reprobate lifestyles do not say that we can never fall into those sins. What of all of the other sins not mentioned in the Title, are they fully allowed or are we required to live in sinless perfection or face damnation?

I am taking this VERY seriously.
I suspect, more seriously than even YOU are.
The LAW (and legalism) brings only DEATH.
The GOSPEL of God’s Grace is the only source of LIFE.
I am teaching about GRACE defeating the LAW.
There is no more important or serious topic in Christiandom.

Eternally Grateful said:

It does not even come close to the standard for righteousness. It is called the minister of death for a reason we can not even keep it

start to focus on the law of love if you want to see Gods standard,

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Oh, the Ten Commandments are absolutely God's standard, but you are right that in our own strength, we cannot hope to obey it. And yes, I totally agree with you that love is what we ought to be focused on. Yet where does that love come from, not us, but from God.
KJV Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Notice that love fulfills the very law you say doesn't meet God's standard. What you have missed is that yes, we cannot keep the commandments by our own striving and determination to obey or live in righteousness, but God has shown how we are able to obey those Commandments... Through love. And that love comes from the Spirit of God avoiding within.

KJV Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The above shows us the sanctification process. Accomplished in and through us by the holy Spirit.

KJV 1 John 2:3-5
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

KJV John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I'm surprised you had no comment on the relation of the weekly Sabbath and the yearly Sabbaths to...
KJV Colossians 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...

considering my previous post explained it in response to your question.

Backlit said:

Oh, the Ten Commandments are absolutely God's standard, but you are right that in our own strength, we cannot hope to obey it. And yes, I totally agree with you that love is what we ought to be focused on. Yet where does that love come from, not us, but from God.
KJV Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Notice that love fulfills the very law you say doesn't meet God's standard. What you have missed is that yes, we cannot keep the commandments by our own striving and determination to obey or live in righteousness, but God has shown how we are able to obey those Commandments... Through love. And that love comes from the Spirit of God avoiding within.

KJV Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The above shows us the sanctification process. Accomplished in and through us by the holy Spirit.

KJV 1 John 2:3-5
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

KJV John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I'm surprised you had no comment on the relation of the weekly Sabbath and the yearly Sabbaths to...
KJV Colossians 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...

considering my previous post explained it in response to your question.

Click to expand...

Yet those same commands condemn you where you stand

focus on the law of love.

Eternally Grateful said:

If they tell you if you do not obey sabbath your not saved. They do believe must obey to be saved

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No, they believe by disobedience to the Sabbath you are no longer saved.

On Saturday.

I just wonder if that means evening friday - evening Saturday. I mean, if they're going to emulate the Jews of the Old Covenant, they ought do it exactly the same.

I also wonder if those who believing they are keeping God's Sabbath on Sunday are likewise eternally damned.

All false doctrine with their special little rules are always about being really 'special' with God, apart from the rest of the average flock. And they enjoy the highest seat in the room of religion, congratulating themselves in their high obedience to their wondrous rule.

atpollard said:

I am teaching about GRACE defeating the LAW.

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May I suggest an alternative focus may also be biblical. It is God's grace by which we stain to righteousness right? This righteousness is a gift, that we receive by faith. When we are born again, we are immediately changed. Our focus is totally redirected and our thinking becomes more in line with God's will as opposed to our own. That is imparted righteousness. We grow in grace. We may fall from time to time. But we get up. Eventually, we won't fall so often. We overcome out weaknesses one by one. Through trial and error, through the word and prayer, we overcome our faults, our auditions, our bad habits, our sin. And this takes a life time, but after those falls, we repent, we find grace to help when we need it, we find forgiveness, and we find strength to continue. But so long as we get up, every time, the imputed righteousness, covers us. So grace to my mind not so much defeats the law, but defeats sin. And the love of God by His Spirit dwelling within not so much defeats the law, but fulfills it.

theefaith said:

no I’m not
Only a man can be a father! Priests or apostles

Christ is high priest who are his low priests?

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Only a Catholic man can be a Catholic father in the Catholic religion.

But in the pure religion of the body of Christ, all members thereof are made priest and kings to God by the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 1) We all are a holy priesthood (1 Peter 2) with our high Priest Jesus.

You know who the law priests are. Your priests in your Catholic religion, as you have said many times. They are the low priests in high places (Eph 6:12).

And that's fine by me. It matters not. There are plenty of religions of the world made by man, and they are all different. There's the Jews' religion, the Catholic religion, the Muslim religion. The lumped together religion of various cults, such as Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc...

And many of them that are not fanatical in their false religion and make decent neighbors, and I have no problem with them, neither do I try to give them problem, but be neighborly.

It's only you fanatics who can't just stick to your own religion, but rather go out of your way to proselytize people that make yourselves odious.

Eternally Grateful said:

Yet those same commands condemn you where you stand

focus on the law of love.

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No, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

robert derrick said:

No, they believe by disobedience to the Sabbath you are no longer saved.

On Saturday.

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The Sabbath is a day. A day has no power to demand obedience, therefore there is no such thing as disobedience to the Sabbath. However, you may find it more difficult in justifying disobedience to God, and then claiming you are saved.

Backlit said:

May I suggest an alternative focus may also be biblical. It is God's grace by which we stain to righteousness right? This righteousness is a gift, that we receive by faith. When we are born again, we are immediately changed. Our focus is totally redirected and our thinking becomes more in line with God's will as opposed to our own. That is imparted righteousness. We grow in grace. We may fall from time to time. But we get up. Eventually, we won't fall so often. We overcome out weaknesses one by one. Through trial and error, through the word and prayer, we overcome our faults, our auditions, our bad habits, our sin. And this takes a life time, but after those falls, we repent, we find grace to help when we need it, we find forgiveness, and we find strength to continue. But so long as we get up, every time, the imputed righteousness, covers us. So grace to my mind not so much defeats the law, but defeats sin. And the love of God by His Spirit dwelling within not so much defeats the law, but fulfills it.

Click to expand...

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well." (James 2)

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8)

We are both saved and justified by grace (Rom 3:24) through faith.

We are imputed righteousness by grace and saved when we believe Jesus, and we are justified with God by grace when we do His will, even as our father Abraham. (James 2:21)

They are both by grace, because we earn nothing from God as of debt, because without Him we cannot believe, and without Him we cannot do His will. We need His grace and willingness to cover our sins with charity (1 Peter 4:8) in order to stand in His faith and fulfill His righteousness.

And so, from salvation by grace, we must go on to justification by grace. If we fail to be justified with God by continuing in dead works and being void of good works (Titus 1:16), then faith is dead, and cannot save us by grace.

Now, whether were ever 'really' believed and were ever 'really' saved doesn't matter with God, but only now and today (2 Cor 6), and the past is forgotten by Him, whether that of unrighteousness before faith and repentance, or righteousness before return to corruption. (Ezek 33)(Heb 6)(2 Peter 2)

Backlit said:

No, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

The Sabbath is a day. A day has no power to demand obedience, therefore there is no such thing as disobedience to the Sabbath. However, you may find it more difficult in justifying disobedience to God, and then claiming you are saved.

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Not sure why you are splitting hairs here, but nonetheless:

God in the law of Moses and the prophets instructs not to profane the Sabbath (Nehem 13:7)(Matthew 12:5). Not to do that which is not lawful on the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:2)

Disobeying the law of the Sabbath in the Old Covenant was to disobey and profane the Sabbath.

Now, if you want to make difference between disobeying and profaning the Sabbath, then I'll not quibble.

Sabbath keepers believe by profaning the Sabbath, and doing that which is not lawful on the Sabbath, you are no longer saved, if they ever were saved.

On Saturday.

robert derrick said:

Sabbath keepers believe by profaning the Sabbath, and doing that which is not lawful on the Sabbath, you are no longer saved, if they ever were saved.

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Do they? Never heard that. You have a link to that teaching from a Sabbath keeping community?

Backlit said:

Oh, the Ten Commandments are absolutely God's standard, but you are right that in our own strength, we cannot hope to obey it. And yes, I totally agree with you that love is what we ought to be focused on. Yet where does that love come from, not us, but from God.
KJV Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Notice that love fulfills the very law you say doesn't meet God's standard. What you have missed is that yes, we cannot keep the commandments by our own striving and determination to obey or live in righteousness, but God has shown how we are able to obey those Commandments... Through love. And that love comes from the Spirit of God avoiding within.

KJV Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The above shows us the sanctification process. Accomplished in and through us by the holy Spirit.

KJV 1 John 2:3-5
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

KJV John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I'm surprised you had no comment on the relation of the weekly Sabbath and the yearly Sabbaths to...
KJV Colossians 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...

considering my previous post explained it in response to your question.

Click to expand...

There is an error of thinking here:

"Notice that love fulfills the very law you say doesn't meet God's standard. What you have missed is that yes, we cannot keep the commandments by our own striving and determination to obey or live in righteousness, but God has shown how we are able to obey those Commandments... Through love. And that love comes from the Spirit of God abiding within"

First there is the faith of Jesus, believing Jesus from the heart, then there is salvation by grace with love of God shed abroad in our heart. It is by faith that works are justified with God (James 2). With love of God we do so, but only by the faith of Jesus can we do so.

Anyone can love doing anything, even believing it is service to God (John 16:2), but without the faith of Jesus to know the Scriptures and so proving the true will of God (Rom 12:2), then we are still not a doer of His Word, but only of our own religion.

Faith alone without works is dead (James 2), and works alone without faith is vain (Gal 3), and works of faith of man and not of Jesus according to the Scriptures, is equally vain and unjustified with God.

For instance:

If the Sabbath were still the law of God in Christ Jesus, then anyone can purpose to work not, but without faith in God while doing so, such work of the law is of no value. It is vain work and foolishly done, thinking that work alone justifies with God. (Gal 3)

But if the Sabbath is not still law of God in Christ Jesus, then the religious 'keepers' thereof that do not profane their Sabbath with work, are doing so in obedience to a false law with corrupted faith, and so equally vain and foolishly unjustified with God.

If the Sabbath is still law of God in Christ Jesus, then the keepers thereof do well fulfilling the royal law (James 2), but if the Sabbath is not according to the royal law of Christ, then the keepers thereof do what they love to do, but not unto any 'special' justification with God.

Backlit said:

Do they? Never heard that. You have a link to that teaching from a Sabbath keeping community?

Click to expand...

I tried a couple, but it was only how they believe Sabbath keeping is for Christians. And I'm not surprised, since their effort is to convince Christians of keeping the Sabbath, and not of repelling anyone by direct condemnation of them that don't.

So, if you know any Sabbath keepers that can correct me in this point...

robert derrick said:

There is an error of thinking here:

"Notice that love fulfills the very law you say doesn't meet God's standard. What you have missed is that yes, we cannot keep the commandments by our own striving and determination to obey or live in righteousness, but God has shown how we are able to obey those Commandments... Through love. And that love comes from the Spirit of God abiding within"

First there is the faith of Jesus, believing Jesus from the heart, then there is salvation by grace with love of God shed abroad in our heart. It is by faith that works are justified with God (James 2). With love of God we do so, but only by the faith of Jesus can we do so.

Anyone can love doing anything, even believing it is service to God (John 16:2), but without the faith of Jesus to know the Scriptures and so proving the true will of God (Rom 12:2), then we are still not a doer of His Word, but only of our own religion.

Faith alone without works is dead (James 2), and works alone without faith is vain (Gal 3), and works of faith of man and not of Jesus according to the Scriptures, is equally vain and unjustified with God.

For instance:

If the Sabbath were still the law of God in Christ Jesus, then anyone can purpose to work not, but without faith in God while doing so, such work of the law is of no value. It is vain work and foolishly done, thinking that work alone justifies with God. (Gal 3)

But if the Sabbath is not still law of God in Christ Jesus, then the religious 'keepers' thereof that do not profane their Sabbath with work, are doing so in obedience to a false law with corrupted faith, and so equally vain and foolishly unjustified with God.

If the Sabbath is still law of God in Christ Jesus, then the keepers thereof do well fulfilling the royal law (James 2), but if the Sabbath is not according to the royal law of Christ, then the keepers thereof do what they love to do, but not unto any 'special' justification with God.

Click to expand...

You are trying very hard to pin Salvation/justification by works on me. But such an accusation is what you hope is there, but not from anything I profess, teach, practise, or believe.

robert derrick said:

I tried a couple, but it was only how they believe Sabbath keeping is for Christians. And I'm not surprised, since their effort is to convince Christians of keeping the Sabbath, and not of repelling anyone by direct condemnation of them that don't.

So, if you know any Sabbath keepers that can correct me in this point...

Click to expand...

In other words the accusation that Sabbath keepers condemn other Christians and claim they are not saved, is another figment of your imagination, much like your accusation that anyone keeping the Sabbath does so in order to be justified by his works. You want so much for these things to be true, and you aren't on your own. But they aren't true. And your desperation is revealing your intense hated for the Sabbath and your avowed reluctance to entertain the slightest desire to honor it .. Regardless any teaching in scripture that says different to your accepted theology. You simply do not want to admit that Sabbath keepers might simply want to honor that day because they love God, and the faith they have believes and accepts His word of authority that says, remember to keep holy my Sabbath day.

atpollard said:

You ignored my question.

“Do you sin?”

The difficulty is not that I am not serious.
I am being very serious.
The problem we are having is that you are not being honest.
It is the fallacy of the false dilemma (aka excluded middle) to imply that one must EITHER be “fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers” or “sinless”.

If you claim that Christians CANNOT SIN, then only those living lives of SINLESS PERFECTION are Christian. That is an unbiblical teaching that I SERIOUSLY object to and stand willing to fight against to protect any weaker brothers that might be reading along.

Perhaps the TITLE is unfortunately written, but here are some questions to ponder:

• If a Christian tells a “LIE” is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?
• If a Christian “STEALS” something (even a pen from the office) is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?
  
• If a Christian “FORNICATES” (sex outside of marriage) is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?

Is that REALLY what you believe? No christian can EVER “Lie, Steal or Fornicate” without immediately loosing their salvation. Where is the verse that teaches that? The verses that teach that Christians do not live reprobate lifestyles do not say that we can never fall into those sins. What of all of the other sins not mentioned in the Title, are they fully allowed or are we required to live in sinless perfection or face damnation?

I am taking this VERY seriously.
I suspect, more seriously than even YOU are.
The LAW (and legalism) brings only DEATH.
The GOSPEL of God’s Grace is the only source of LIFE.
I am teaching about GRACE defeating the LAW.
There is no more important or serious topic in Christiandom.

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You not being serious to me was not dividing between those are ARE drunkards, vs those who WERE drunkards, and so forcing me to make the obvious point that any child would understand.

However, in your sinless vs sinful Christianity, I have no doubt you are serious.

And so,
"It is the fallacy of the false dilemma (aka excluded middle) to imply that one must EITHER be “fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers” or “sinless”."

Agreed, that scenario is a fallacy. I don't accept it. The case of sinless vs sinful Christianity is false.

The correct argument is between sinless and 'trasngressionless', or no sin vs no transgression Christianity.

It is plain the only sinless Christian was Jesus. It is also plain from the Scripture that all 'sin' is not transgression of the law and doctrine and rule of Christ. These are the multitude of sins that charity and love of God covers by grace, as we are growing in grace. (1 Peter 4:8)

'Sin' is anything that does not please God, that is not of faith, that is not wholeheartedly unto the Lord. Therefore, to be sinless, we must be perfect in everything we think and do, that there be no sin of spirit and of flesh.(1 Titus 4:12)

But transgression of written law is much different: To transgress, we must knowingly and willfully disobey what we know to be law of Christ. That is not just 'sin of imperfection', but is iniquity. It is after the manner of Adam's transgression, who was not deceived and transgressed anyway.

And so, while were were yet sinners and transgressors (Rom 5)(Eph 2), Christ saved us, and while we are not without sin (1 John 1), we are not to be found transgressors and thus unrepentant and unforgiven sinners unto death. (1 John 5)

"For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." (Gal 2)

No sin Christianity is false, because none are without sin, while no transgression Christianity is the expectation and command of God, Who's royal law we fulfill well by faith in the His Spirit. (James 2)

If we are found transgressors in the day of the Lord and His appearing, then we are found naked, without the covering of grace and the washed robes of righteousness by the blood of the Lamb.

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." (Rev 16)

Therefore, all who ARE drunkards, etc... shall not inherit the kingdom of God, whether they were believers or are professors only.

We all can come to the point, after having tasted the heavenly gift (Heb 6), where it becomes impossible to renew repentance unto forgiveness, because we have willfully put Christ to an open shame by returning to an openly shameful and riotous living of abounding iniquity, whereby the love of God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), and we no longer have any regard for doing good:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1)

Therefore, sinless Christianity is falsely claiming to have arrived (Phil 3:12)), while no transgression Christianity is the command of God (Matthew 5:23) to do His will in deed and in truth, and be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only. (1 John 3)(James 1)

If we keep the faith of Jesus in sincerity and honesty of heart, confessing our sins to God and one another, growing in His grace and abounding in His love, we shall never fall (2 Peter 1:10) from His grace and shall be found righteous, even as He is righteous at His appearing. (1 John 2)

But if we keep not His faith, but with a wicked heart return to our wallowing in the mire with transgression abounding against His Word and law, building again what once was destroyed by faith, even the old man of sin and trespasses, then faith is dead and we fall from grace, and have no part in His resurrection (Rev 20), even as our names are blotted out of the book of Life of the Lamb:

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." (Rev 3:5)

We cannot fall from that which we have ascended to sit in heavenly places by grace (Eph 1:3, 2:6), and we cannot be blotted out from that which we were never written in, and to reject as possible and true the Scriptures of falling from grace and being blotted out, then we break Scripture as a lie.

In sinlessness we shall never be found, until the appearing of our Lord in the likeness of His resurrection, but in transgression and abounding iniquity we shall be found naked and ashamed at His coming.

If we are not found clothed in white raiment, but naked in transgression and iniquity, (or even clothed improperly other than white for the marriage (Matthew 22)), then we shall be speechless and blotted out of His book forever.

atpollard said:

You ignored my question.

“Do you sin?”

The difficulty is not that I am not serious.
I am being very serious.
The problem we are having is that you are not being honest.
It is the fallacy of the false dilemma (aka excluded middle) to imply that one must EITHER be “fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers” or “sinless”.

If you claim that Christians CANNOT SIN, then only those living lives of SINLESS PERFECTION are Christian. That is an unbiblical teaching that I SERIOUSLY object to and stand willing to fight against to protect any weaker brothers that might be reading along.

Perhaps the TITLE is unfortunately written, but here are some questions to ponder:

• If a Christian tells a “LIE” is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?
• If a Christian “STEALS” something (even a pen from the office) is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?
  
• If a Christian “FORNICATES” (sex outside of marriage) is that the “unpardonable sin”, that separates them from the love of God and negates the blood of Christ as their salvation?

Is that REALLY what you believe? No christian can EVER “Lie, Steal or Fornicate” without immediately loosing their salvation. Where is the verse that teaches that? The verses that teach that Christians do not live reprobate lifestyles do not say that we can never fall into those sins. What of all of the other sins not mentioned in the Title, are they fully allowed or are we required to live in sinless perfection or face damnation?

I am taking this VERY seriously.
I suspect, more seriously than even YOU are.
The LAW (and legalism) brings only DEATH.
The GOSPEL of God’s Grace is the only source of LIFE.
I am teaching about GRACE defeating the LAW.
There is no more important or serious topic in Christiandom.

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"I am teaching about GRACE defeating the LAW."

Quote the Scripture.

It sounds like destroying the law, which Jesus said He did not come to do (Matthew 5). Or that the law is an enemy to be defeated:

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor 15)

At the very lease 'defeat' is the wrong term. We are to fulfill the royal law (James 2) by faith with works of faith.

Maybe you mean sin is defeated and overcome, but the law is not sin. The law makes sin known.