Jesus never said he was God Almighty

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Ronald Nolette

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In your dreams, and you must know this already.

I even would be very skeptical if you claimed Jesus/Yahshua is the Messiah with that silly comment you just made, as you believe in an unbiblical monster for the human Saviour. You say he is truly God the Son. I say he is truly the Son of living God AND the Son of Man. You must stick to your unscriptural God the Son and praise your god, and you can then never say he is also the Son of Man and the Son of God. If you believe you can still call Yahshua the Son of God and the Son of Man and God the Son, you might consider checking into a home for the spiritually insane. Maybe you have already? They are quiet popular you know. Just go the the nearest brick and mortar Trinity home down the street. You'll find many that speaka your language mate. I wonder if having the wrong Messiah means you also do not have the Father and the Son as it says in 2 John 22-23?

Do you deny the Son? You must, because you say he is God the Son. And then do you have the Father and the Son? Notice, John never says God the Holy Spirit in this critical area of scripture. And why do you think this is then? Because there is only God, the Father and his Son. The Holy Spirit is actually of the Father himself. This Trinity chaos does not go well with scripture, including the verses I just mentioned. You have to go into denial or deflect or add some other silly response to save face. And you can NEVER answer my questions directly posed here? It is impossible as long as you hold on to your monstrous pagan Triune God of 3 personalities. You mock scripture because you either really are too spiritually-challenged to realize it, or you do not care.

Happy trails....

APAK

Well that is your choice if you would reject jesus as messiah because I know the Bible better than you.

Maybe you should read John 5

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

ohn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

and try the book of Revelation:

Revelation 1
King James Version

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus declared Himself the first and last and the almighty- if you were educated in grammar you will be able to see this. As for the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Two people named Jehovah are speaking here! and they are the first and last!

Revelation 21
King James Version

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Jesus is speaking here as well!

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

then in John 20:

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Don't trot out that worn out lie that Thomas simply made an exclamation like we do "Oh my god" He would not do that as a good Jew!

Why did not Jesus correct Him? why did not Jesus rebuke Him and say He was Not Thomas' God (The definite article appears in the manuscripts before Lord and God, so Thomas called Jesus His Lord and His god) Why did'nt Jesus tell Thomas He was in error that Jesus was a God but not God with HIs Father?

Sorry but you are confusing nature with person as do all unitarians and JW's.
 

ReChoired

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Did Jesus speak and claim he was divine, let alone God Almighty?
Yes:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 
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APAK

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Well that is your choice if you would reject jesus as messiah because I know the Bible better than you.

Maybe you should read John 5

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

ohn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

and try the book of Revelation:

Revelation 1
King James Version

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus declared Himself the first and last and the almighty- if you were educated in grammar you will be able to see this. As for the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Two people named Jehovah are speaking here! and they are the first and last!

Revelation 21
King James Version

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Jesus is speaking here as well!

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

then in John 20:

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Don't trot out that worn out lie that Thomas simply made an exclamation like we do "Oh my god" He would not do that as a good Jew!

Why did not Jesus correct Him? why did not Jesus rebuke Him and say He was Not Thomas' God (The definite article appears in the manuscripts before Lord and God, so Thomas called Jesus His Lord and His god) Why did'nt Jesus tell Thomas He was in error that Jesus was a God but not God with HIs Father?

"Sorry but you are confusing nature with person as do all unitarians and JW's."

What the rear of a donkey are you spouting about here? Make some sense why don't you. Speak up man, explain yourself.

And in an act of desperation you now say you know scripture better than I. Interesting statement coming from a deep-rooted Trinitarian. It is an oxymoron, indeed. Scripture and the Trinity or a Trinitarian trying to teach scripture are not compatible. It's a joke mate.

The way you would teach scripture is to get your set of Trinity inked stamps and pad out. And when you came to a verse that suggested it spoke of your 3 god in three folks or any one of them you would vigorously stamp it, and call it a trinitarian-support scripture. You do not know scripture because you are hard-wired to see 3 gods in scripture of 3 persons. There is NO WAY getting around it. You abuse scripture in the process mate.

Just be honest with yourself as you cannot even generate a one- paragraph commentary of say your first piece of chaff you ejected as your ploy or attempt to deflect away from my incoming post. You have nothing but your twisted cherry-picked scripture. That is you limit of dealing with scripture.

So let me see a one-paragraph commentary of John 5:18. I would like to see your knowledge and understanding of this scripture.

I bet you won't even try. A typical Trinitarian copout, right! what a joke! All words and talk and no action.


APAK
 

APAK

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Yes:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
And the same goes for you mate, per my last Post #843

I dare you to do this one-paragraph commentary of John 5:18.

Let me see if you are all hot air as well, without any substance
 

HisLife

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"Sorry but you are confusing nature with person as do all unitarians and JW's."

What the rear of a donkey are you spouting about here? Make some sense why don't you. Speak up man, explain yourself.

And in an act of desperation you now say you know scripture better than I. Interesting statement coming from a deep-rooted Trinitarian. It is an oxymoron, indeed. Scripture and the Trinity or a Trinitarian trying to teach scripture are not compatible. It's a joke mate.

The way you would teach scripture is to get your set of Trinity inked stamps and pad out. And when you came to a verse that suggested it spoke of your 3 god in three folks or any one of them you would vigorously stamp it, and call it a trinitarian-support scripture. You do not know scripture because you are hard-wired to see 3 gods in scripture of 3 persons. There is NO WAY getting around it. You abuse scripture in the process mate.

Just be honest with yourself as you cannot even generate a one- paragraph commentary of say your first piece of chaff you ejected as your ploy or attempt to deflect away from my incoming post. You have nothing but your twisted cherry-picked scripture. That is you limit of dealing with scripture.

So let me see a one-paragraph commentary of John 5:18. I would like to see your knowledge and understanding of this scripture.

I bet you won't even try. A typical Trinitarian copout, right! what a joke! All words and talk and no action.

If someone speaks, Do the words come from a separate Person?
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Right on...if all fails they play the word association switch game....

I think I'll start answering these folks with associated scripture and force their words down their throats. They need to taste what they eat and believe in. And for me to inject their God the Holy Spirit where suitable and appropriate.

They can never answer it or explain that ALL the writers never spelt out the Holy Spirit as some separate being or personality from the Father, because they ALL knew the Spirit of purity and divinity was always intrinsically of the Father already. Thee writers would have laughed or blasted anyone who would have said the Son was equal with the Father and his divine composition of Spirit.

Blessings,

APAK
As far as Man is concerned the Son of God is our God, because No one can come to the Father but through his only begotten Son and the Holy Spirit is God just as Jesus is as one within as far as Man is concerned and that's why he is called Emmanuel God with us.
Outside of Jesus Christ all are at a loss, under delusions of Mans works.

No one can go claim anything directly to God in fact and if they claim such they have the wrong Father. all the Jews and Islam have a bastard Father that Jesus pointed out, that they are of their Father of Lies and who was a Murderer from the beginning.

No one can have the Holy Spirit and not believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, the Holy Spirit came after Jesus went up to Heaven.

If one does not truly know Jesus Christ they do not have Grace.
Where we have Christ Jesus Grace abounds.
With our Lord and Saviour of our Soul Grace abounds and we are at one with him united in him as the Body of the true Church with Jesus Christ as the Head their of. everything is all about Jesus Christ foremost in our lives. we abide in the Vine ?
 

ReChoired

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And the same goes for you mate, per my last Post #843

I dare you to do this one-paragraph commentary of John 5:18.

Let me see if you are all hot air as well, without any substance
I am not sure what you are asking for in regards John 5:18. You want me to show you from scripture what it says?

Would you please consider the verses I gave?

Did Jesus speak and claim he was divine, let alone God Almighty?
Yes:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Clearly, "the LORD" (JEHOVAH) "appeared" and spake directly to Abraham on earth in Genesis 17-19. It says "God" spake to Abraham, and was "talking with him". The text says after God was done talking to Abraham, "God went up from Abraham", which means that the LORD God actually came down and stood with Abraham, thus "appeared" to Abraham. The other texts reveal that no man has seen the Father on earth, but the Son was seen. The final text reveals that Jesus was indeed around before the time of Abraham, and thus was the one speaking at the time of Abraham. The Son is in nature Deity just as the Father is in nature Deity, but the Son has that nature because of the Father. They are both (two Persons/Beings) over all creation, which means that they are both God (yet not the same Person/Being).

I am not trinintarian. The Bible doesn't teach trinitarianism. The Bible teaches the eternal heavenly Trio, which is entirely different.

As for John 5:18,

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

This is quite simple.

[1] The Jews sought the more (they already wanted to earlier) to kill Jesus. Why?

[2] because Jesus unbound (set a liberty, broke loose) the Sabbath from the man-made and contradictory restrictions that the Pharisees had placed upon God's Law (Exodus 20:8-11). In other words, Jesus obeyed the Ten Commandments (obeyed God) and ignored their selfish traditions which actually broke God's law (rather than men). Thus He set aside man's authority and upheld God's authority.

[3] because Jesus said that God (the Person/Being of the Ancient of Days; Daniel 7:9,13,22) was His own (actual) Father by nature, since He was the "only begotten" (monogenes), the "the word was God" (theos en o logos; John 1:1c), of the "only true God" (monon alethinon theon; John 17:3, in other words the underived God; ton theon of John 1:1b), where as the Son, also eternally God (Deity) in nature, has His nature (genes) from the Father). Therefore, Jesus was not merely claiming to be a "son of God" like the angels, or Adam, or even the Jews were, but claiming that which none in creation can claim, to be "equal" in eternal nature to the Father, and thus has the right to sit at the Father's right hand on the Throne of eternal Deity with the Father. If Jesus was not who He said He was, and His nature not what He claimed it was (beyond humanity, for the Jews would never have desired to kill Him for that claim, since they all made that claim in John 10:35), then it would have been grounds to declare blasphemy.

You are answered from scripture. Now, please address what I provided to you. Forget mentioning 'trinitarianism', as I do not believe in that nor teach it (it is a heresy, even the opposite of the coin of unitarianism). Just address what I provided to you.
 
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APAK

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I am not sure what you are asking for in regards John 5:18. You want me to show you from scripture what it says?

Would you please consider the verses I gave?


Yes:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Clearly, "the LORD" (JEHOVAH) "appeared" and spake directly to Abraham on earth in Genesis 17-19. It says "God" spake to Abraham, and was "talking with him". The text says after God was done talking to Abraham, "God went up from Abraham", which means that the LORD God actually came down and stood with Abraham, thus "appeared" to Abraham. The other texts reveal that no man has seen the Father on earth, but the Son was seen. The final text reveals that Jesus was indeed around before the time of Abraham, and thus was the one speaking at the time of Abraham. The Son is in nature Deity just as the Father is in nature Deity, but the Son has that nature because of the Father. They are both (two Persons/Beings) over all creation, which means that they are both God (yet not the same Person/Being).

I am not trinintarian. The Bible doesn't teach trinitarianism. The Bible teaches the eternal heavenly Trio, which is entirely different.

As for John 5:18,

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

This is quite simple.

[1] The Jews sought the more (they already wanted to earlier) to kill Jesus. Why?

[2] because Jesus unbound (set a liberty, broke loose) the Sabbath from the man-made and contradictory restrictions that the Pharisees had placed upon God's Law (Exodus 20:8-11). In other words, Jesus obeyed the Ten Commandments (obeyed God) and ignored their selfish traditions which actually broke God's law (rather than men). Thus He set aside man's authority and upheld God's authority.

[3] because Jesus said that God (the Person/Being of the Ancient of Days; Daniel 7:9,13,22) was His own (actual) Father by nature, since He was the "only begotten" (monogenes), the "the word was God" (theos en o logos; John 1:1c), of the "only true God" (monon alethinon theon; John 17:3, in other words the underived God; ton theon of John 1:1b), where as the Son, also eternally God (Deity) in nature, has His nature (genes) from the Father). Therefore, Jesus was not merely claiming to be a "son of God" like the angels, or Adam, or even the Jews were, but claiming that which none in creation can claim, to be "equal" in eternal nature to the Father, and thus has the right to sit at the Father's right hand on the Throne of eternal Deity with the Father. If Jesus was not who He said He was, and His nature not what He claimed it was (beyond humanity, for the Jews would never have desired to kill Him for that claim, since they all made that claim in John 10:35), then it would have been grounds to declare blasphemy.

You are answered from scripture. Now, please address what I provided to you. Forget mentioning 'trinitarianism', as I do not believe in that nor teach it (it is a heresy, even the opposite of the coin of unitarianism). Just address what I provided to you.
I'll look at you lot after I see yourself explain, as a short commentary, where you see any Trinity bleeding through in John 5:18. I first posed the same request of @Ronald Nolette because it was HIS first Trinity verse he tried to rub in my face. so John 5:18 is it. It is a very simple verse to explain. Should only take about 10-15 minutes to think about it and write it up

Thanks..APAK
 

APAK

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If someone speaks, Do the words come from a separate Person?
I guess you are referring to the Christ who spoke on earth? Hard to tell with your words..

When the Christ spoke it was from his own mind and his own spirit and vocal chords. On a some and critical occasions, His Father, his word, spoke real time, into his Christ's mind and then the Christ voiced the word of the Father. And on most occasions, the Christ spoke from the memory of the Father's word laid into his mind.

No, our Saviour was not a robot or a dead spirit with a dead or dormant mind where the Father 'took him over' and spoke for him...

Hope this helps...APAK
 
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Ronald Nolette

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"Sorry but you are confusing nature with person as do all unitarians and JW's."

What the rear of a donkey are you spouting about here? Make some sense why don't you. Speak up man, explain yourself.

And in an act of desperation you now say you know scripture better than I. Interesting statement coming from a deep-rooted Trinitarian. It is an oxymoron, indeed. Scripture and the Trinity or a Trinitarian trying to teach scripture are not compatible. It's a joke mate.

The way you would teach scripture is to get your set of Trinity inked stamps and pad out. And when you came to a verse that suggested it spoke of your 3 god in three folks or any one of them you would vigorously stamp it, and call it a trinitarian-support scripture. You do not know scripture because you are hard-wired to see 3 gods in scripture of 3 persons. There is NO WAY getting around it. You abuse scripture in the process mate.

Just be honest with yourself as you cannot even generate a one- paragraph commentary of say your first piece of chaff you ejected as your ploy or attempt to deflect away from my incoming post. You have nothing but your twisted cherry-picked scripture. That is you limit of dealing with scripture.

So let me see a one-paragraph commentary of John 5:18. I would like to see your knowledge and understanding of this scripture.

I bet you won't even try. A typical Trinitarian copout, right! what a joke! All words and talk and no action.


APAK

Why do you need a mans commentary on a verse that even a 2nd grader can understand? what part of this verse do you not understand that you need a man to explain to you?

YOu seem more interested in what men have to say about Gods Word than what God says in His Word. No wonder why you reject the deity of Jesus.
 

APAK

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Why do you need a mans commentary on a verse that even a 2nd grader can understand? what part of this verse do you not understand that you need a man to explain to you?

YOu seem more interested in what men have to say about Gods Word than what God says in His Word. No wonder why you reject the deity of Jesus.
Well Ron, I didn't think you would defend your first Trinity verse of John 5:18 from that post you sent me..a pity. And it then astounds me why not, since you wasted no time to throw it at me.

Let me do it for you...again, as I've done for dozens in the past.

I think John 5:18b is the real part you wanted to show me that supports your Trinity. So let me expand on that part only.

John 5:18b "He was even calling God his own father, making himself equal with God (NIV)...not necessarily my best translation.

The Pharisees understood and acknowledged that Yahshua claimed his Father was indeed the one true indivisible God Almighty. This destroys any notion that Yahshua is God and divine.

And in so acknowledging what Yahshua told them, the Pharisees were mindful that Yahshua was only as a human being born of Mary and Joseph. They knew of his birth and family history. They did not however believe Yahshua was born by God Almighty, his Father, and not Joseph, with Mary as a miraculous conception, and thus his birth was truly a miracle. And of course they never believed Yahshua was the Son of God, let alone the prophesized Messiah at all.

And that is why the Pharisees now energized with passion, denounced his equality with God, his Father.

In the tradition of patriarchal families, especially in those days, the Pharisees knew that Yahshua was saying he had equal AUTHORITY with God, his Father. That was too much for them to take. They wanted to stone Yahshua to death for this statement, along with his work on the Sabbath. How dare he place himself with the same and equal authority as their God Almighty.

Here are other verses in scripture that point to being 'equal' with the Father, Leader or other men:

Gen 44:18 - Joseph...."you are equal to Pharaoh himself"
2 Cor 11:12 - men wanting to be "equal with us"

No writer of the Bible, or any early Christian ever thought that Joseph, Pharaoh or Paul and his opposition were considered "of one substance" "one being" simply because they are called 'equal.'

Yahshua was using God, his Father's power and authority on earth and thus was 'equal' to God, as was Joseph with Pharaoh.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Well Ron, I didn't think you would defend your first Trinity verse of John 5:18 from that post you sent me..a pity. And it then astounds me why not, since you wasted no time to throw it at me.

Let me do it for you...again, as I've done for dozens in the past.

I think John 5:18b is the real part you wanted to show me that supports your Trinity. So let me expand on that part only.

John 5:18b "He was even calling God his own father, making himself equal with God (NIV)...not necessarily my best translation.

The Pharisees understood and acknowledged that Yahshua claimed his Father was indeed the one true indivisible God Almighty. This destroys any notion that Yahshua is God and divine.

Ans in so acknowledging what Yahshua told them, the Pharisees were mindful that Yahshua was only as a human being born of Mary and Joseph. They knew of his birth and family history. They did not however believe Yahshua was born by God Almighty, his Father, and not Joseph, with Mary as a miraculous conception, and thus his birth was truly a miracle. And of course they never believed Yahshua was the Son of God, let alone the prophesized Messiah at all.

And that is why the Pharisees now energized with passion, denounced his equality with God, his Father.

In the tradition of patriarchal families, especially in those days, the Pharisees knew that Yahshua was saying he had equal AUTHORITY with God, his Father. That was too much for them to take. They wanted to stone Yahshua to death for this statement, along with his work on the Sabbath. How dare he place himself with the same and equal authority as their God Almighty.

Here are other verses in scripture that point to being 'equal' with the Father, Leader or other men:

Gen 44:18 - Joseph...."you are equal to Pharaoh himself"
2 Cor 11:12 - men wanting to be "equal with us"

No writer of the Bible, or any early Christian ever thought that Joseph, Pharaoh or Paul and his opposition were considered "of one substance" "one being" simply because they are called 'equal.'

Yahshua was using God, his Father's power and authority on earth and thus was 'equal' to God, as was Joseph with Pharaoh.


Well it is sad that you translate shop to find one that tries to match your misconception of the person and nature of Jesus.

Yes Jesus declared His Father was greater than Him. that is without dispute. but Jesus by nature is God as I showed you from the Scriptures you avoid!

Your understanding of the patriarchal authority is lacking any historical Jewish basis. If you believe it does- please cite it.

Genesis 44 was strictly about authority. Joseph was elevated to second highest ruler and in all things EXCEPT the throne he was equal to pharoah!

and your comment on 2 cor. 11 is disingenuous at best. Those that Paul was excoriating here desired through their works to be considered on the same level as apostles. so while it is a somewhat truth to be equal, it does nothing to rebut John 5 at all. For the word equal in JOhn 5 is "isos" which means to be the same as! Different word than in 2 cor. 11

I need no defense for a verse (John 5) that is clear as a bell! Jesus called God His Father making Him divine Himself. dogs beget dogs, cats beget cats, fish beget fish, humans beget humans and God begets God. But because jesus had "dna" from God and human He is truly the God-man.

No one is arguing the Father is greater than the son. He is! But the Bible declares Jesus God, Jesus declared HImself God, the apostles declared Jesus God- you should as well.

He is not His Father, He is God the Son. Like the Holy Spirit is also called God but is no the Father nor the son.

God is used 2 ways. To denote a person, or to denote a "nature or essence" we are human by nature. Jesus was God by nature before His birth and now is the God man, by the determinate counsel of the godhead!

Well I am off onvacation to visit two of my children and 6 of my grandkids. We can take up this lively debate when I return. Until then read and ponder the verses I posted. and ask yourself What was jesus before He became man? angel? NO cherub? NO seraph? No. John 1:1 God? yes and as God He was in the beginning with God!
Phil 2:6 declares this
and 1 Tim 3:16 declares Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.,

Even Gabriel in speaking to Mary said Jesus would be Emmanuel--God with us. Not a godlike person with us or gods reflection with us or one who had the authority of god with us, but God with us. all that other garbage was added by men without any warrant from SCripture.
 

HisLife

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I guess you are referring to the Christ who spoke on earth? Hard to tell with your words..

When the Christ spoke it was from his own mind and his own spirit and vocal chords. On a some and critical occasions, His Father, his word, spoke real time, into his Christ's mind and then the Christ voiced the word of the Father. And on most occasions, the Christ spoke from the memory of the Father's word laid into his mind.

No, our Saviour was not a robot or a dead spirit with a dead or dormant mind where the Father 'took him over' and spoke for him...

Hope this helps...APAK

Hi again, No just a simple question I was skimming through the thread and noticed something you said And I thought of a discussion we had about half a year ago I wasn't able to finish, unfortunately. You said "Because there is only God, the Father and his Son. The Holy Spirit is actually of the Father himself". So you are Saying God is God, Fair enough, The Holy is of the Father Himself, Fair enough, So my point was If someone speaks are the words of the person as well? From the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks, If Gods Word Came from his Heart, like let there be light as an example, Do you think God the Father's Words he speaks Are From Himself or do they come from another? Basically Is Gods Word Part of God himself as well?
 
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ReChoired

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I'll look at you lot after I see yourself explain, as a short commentary, where you see any Trinity bleeding through in John 5:18. I first posed the same request of @Ronald Nolette because it was HIS first Trinity verse he tried to rub in my face. so John 5:18 is it. It is a very simple verse to explain. Should only take about 10-15 minutes to think about it and write it up

Thanks..APAK
I already addressed your question in the post, you obviously did not read. Jesus never said he was God Almighty

"Trinity" is non-sequitur. It is a red-herring. It is a straw-man of my position. I clearly stated in that reply:

"... I am not trinintarian. The Bible doesn't teach trinitarianism. The Bible teaches the eternal heavenly Trio, which is entirely different. ... Forget mentioning 'trinitarianism', as I do not believe in that nor teach it (it is a heresy, even the opposite of the coin of unitarianism). Just address what I provided to you."​

If you refuse to address what I gave, in both parts, it shows you have no honour, and no intention of listening to anyone other than yourself.
 

Wrangler

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Why do you need a mans commentary on a verse that even a 2nd grader can understand? what part of this verse do you not understand that you need a man to explain to you?

There are so many verses flying around, it is hard to keep track of what verse is being referred to. However, if this is the verse, why don't you meet his challenge of a commentary? Obviously, you want your twisted interpretation to be taken as the obvious or only one.

So let me see a one-paragraph commentary of John 5:18. I would like to see your knowledge and understanding of this scripture.

I bet you won't even try. A typical Trinitarian copout, right! what a joke! All words and talk and no action.

Let me give it a stab using a modern translation. He was justifying the importance of His work on the Sabbath, claiming God as His Father in ways that suggested He was equal to God. These pious religious leaders sought an opportunity to kill Jesus, and these words fueled their hatred.

1. Clearly, in this verse Jesus is not God since his father is explicitly God, in his unitarian nature.

2. No doubt the 'equality' part short circuits your trinitarian capacity to discern. A suggestion is NOT a statement of fact. The laughable trinitarian position here is to literally use the Jewish authorities misunderstanding of Jesus ministry to support their doctrine.
  • It's literally like quoting the serpent as an authoritative reference that we are like God's and God is keeping us down, confusing God's word on theology with God's word on history.

3. Many ways and times Jesus talks about how we humans - including him - are one with God. Having God's spirit does not make us God but we do have the divine Spirit in us. Cross reference to

All the glory You have given to Me, I pass on to them. May that glory unify them and make them one as We are one,
John 17:22.

Undoubtedly, you will ignore all this and present other verses and rely on personal attacks. But it would be nice for you to give a point by point - on point response.
 
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APAK

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Hi again, No just a simple question I was skimming through the thread and noticed something you said And I thought of a discussion we had about half a year ago I wasn't able to finish, unfortunately. You said "Because there is only God, the Father and his Son. The Holy Spirit is actually of the Father himself". So you are Saying God is God, Fair enough, The Holy is of the Father Himself, Fair enough, So my point was If someone speaks are the words of the person as well? From the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks, If Gods Word Came from his Heart, like let there be light as an example, Do you think God the Father's Words he speaks Are From Himself or do they come from another? Basically Is Gods Word Part of God himself as well?
Yes, his (W)word(s) is/are his expression(s) or inner voice from his will, mind, within his Spirit. They cannot be separated.
 

APAK

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I already addressed your question in the post, you obviously did not read. Jesus never said he was God Almighty

"Trinity" is non-sequitur. It is a red-herring. It is a straw-man of my position. I clearly stated in that reply:

"... I am not trinintarian. The Bible doesn't teach trinitarianism. The Bible teaches the eternal heavenly Trio, which is entirely different. ... Forget mentioning 'trinitarianism', as I do not believe in that nor teach it (it is a heresy, even the opposite of the coin of unitarianism). Just address what I provided to you."​

If you refuse to address what I gave, in both parts, it shows you have no honour, and no intention of listening to anyone other than yourself.
Copy that you are not a Trinitarian...I lost track then..sorry.

So do you want me to address your entire list all at once then? Why not a piece at a time?
 
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