COVENANTS

Robert Gwin · Jun 29, 2021

ReChoired said:
To understand your position Robert, I would really need an answer to those two last questions.

Yes Re, I consider the Bible to be God's inspired word, both the old and new testaments. We believe that those are just titles given to the Hebrew and Greek portions of the Bible however, and really don't have any significance, as we believe the Bible is from Genesis to Revelation.

Robert Gwin · Jun 29, 2021

ReChoired said:
Ok, thank you for clarifying. Would you understand by that then, that God made distinction between that which God specifically wrote (Ten Commandments) and that which Moses wrote (everything else), or do you not think there is any difference by that distinction?

I do not find anywhere in scripture where God commands anyone to just keep "9" out of the Ten Commandments. James and John said,

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law [Ten Commandments, 10/10], and yet offend in one point [1/10], he is guilty of all [10/10].

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression [1/10 or more] of the law [10/10].

Solomon said:

Ecc_12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments [10/10]: for this is the whole duty of man [Adam, the 1st and Last].

So, if I may ask, why do you, as a Jehovah's Witness, only observe 9/10 and not keep the one commandment God (JEHOVAH) said to "Remember" (Exodus 20:8-11)? That is sin according to John in scripture, and it also means that the other 9 are also broken and not actually kept according to James.

We believe that Jehovah personally wrote the original tablets which Moses destroyed. Moses was commanded by God to restore them, so the replacements were written by Moses. We believe the words of the Bible are Gods. Inspired into the men who served as penmen to the recorded word.

As far as I know, which is little, the only faith that observes the Sabbath to a degree is the 7th day adventists, however they are hypocritical in doing so. I know a few of them that worked 2nd shift. I knew one that would not work on Saturday, but did not see the need to not work after dusk on Friday.

Post Christian Jehovah's witnesses do not observe the sabbath based on Paul's writings, which we believe are God's words at: (Colossians 2:16) 16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath.

I personally do not know anyone who observes the Sabbath, do you Re?

Robert Gwin · Jun 29, 2021

ReChoired said:
interested in truth and presenting accurately. Where should we begin to test the timeline? I am ready to acc

ReChoired said:
Ok, so I see it this way.

[1] The timeline I provided is correct and the WTS/JW is in error. Or,
[2] The WTS/JW timeline I provided is correct and the timeline I provided is in error. Or,
[3] Both timelines are in error.
How can we determine which is the correct timeline, or at least a more accurate one? What do you suggest? I am interested in truth and presenting accurately. Where should we begin to test the timeline? I am ready to accept your suggestion to where we begin to test and look.

I definitely see it this way as well Re, and I apologize to you for not caring as much as you do to resolve the point. This could take considerable time to research, and I simply am unwilling to put in the time for what I have openly stated is unprovable anyway, and what appears to me as being irrelevant to salvation. Added to that, we are within a few yrs in our understanding with yours, how critical is that in the scheme of things? Please forgive me for what appears to be rudeness, as I truly care about you, and would go to greater lengths to discuss this if I felt your life was on the line.

Mungo · Jun 29, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Hi Re,

For God's people over history there were two major covenants, the law covenant for pre-Christians and the new covenant put into force on Pentecost of the yr 33 CE. We are still under that covenant.

There are three major Covenants. You have omitted the Abrahamic Covenant(s).

It is because of the Covenant with Abraham that we, non Jews, come into the family of God.

God says to Abraham
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves. (Gen 12:2-3).

That promise of worldwide blessing was re-iterated in Gen 22:18 by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves.

Paul writes in Gal 3:26-27) For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.

And in Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.

Paul compares the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants in his allegory of Hagar and Sarah in Gal 4:21-29. Again he emphasises that we are children of the (Abrahamic) promise.

Mungo · Jun 29, 2021

Regarding the Ten Commandments

In Ex 32 we read that the Israelites broke the Covenant by worshipping a golden calf. Therefore God had to make a new Covenant with them (or renew the previous one). We read about this in Ex 34

Vs 10 And he said, “Behold, I make a covenant…..

Vs 27-28 And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 2And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The Ten Commandments were Covenant law of the Sinai Covenant. As such they are not applicable to gentiles because
a) they were never valid for Gentiles
b) the Sinai Covenant has been abolished

@ReChoired
You claim the "Ten Commandments were already known long before Mt. Sinai". This is a very misleading claim.

What was known before Sinai were God's moral laws. From the beginning God made certain moral laws that are applicable to all men in all times. We can call them eternal moral laws.

Mankind knew these laws from the beginning because they were made known to him by his conscience. Thus Cain knew that he had done wrong when he murdered Abel. We believe that man can know something about God and his moral laws from our nature and our consciences.

As the psalmist says:
The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. (Ps 19:1-2)

Paul says:
Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him (Rom 1:20-21)

And
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (Rom 2:14-15)

Thus God’s eternal moral law already exists before man is created and is embedded in our hearts.

When God called the Israelites of Egypt he had to build them into a nation, a kingdom. He did this by means of a Covenant where he bound them to a set of laws, a code of law. This Covenant was accompanied by blessings for keeping the covenant and curses for breaking it. This was standard for Ancient Near East Covenants (ANE Covenants).

God gave the most important of these moral laws to the Israelites written on tablets of stone.

However not all of the Ten Commandments are moral laws. 7th day sabbath keeping is not a moral law. Worshipping God is a moral duty but when we do it is not in itself a moral issue. God made it so for the Israelites because the was the sign of their Covenant with God.

And the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the people of Israel, ‘You shall keep my sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. …...

Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the sabbath, observing the sabbath throughout their generations, as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign for ever between me and the people of Israel (Ex 31:12-13, 16-17)

Curtis · Jun 29, 2021

ReChoired said:
There was a statement made on the matters of "covenants" which was stated as,

"

Each of the other of the Ten Commandments may also be seen long before Mt. Sinai, upon request.

Quoting Exodus, which was written after Israel’s Exodus from Egypt, hence its name, hardly proves anything about whether the law and Decalogue were in place since day 7 of creation.

First of all, the Decalogue IS THE COVENANT, says scripture, being called the covenant written on two tables of stone:

Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses gives Israel, what? The covenant God gave on the mountain - the one Moses said no one but them received before, not even their FATHERS - and as part of that covenant, He gives them the ten commands - then note that AFTER God gave Israel the sabbath day command in the scripture passage below, He said exactly WHEN , WHY and TO WHOM He gave the sabbath day command in verse 15:

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT this COVENANT with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount

saying,

Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

As a preface to Moses giving Israel the covenant given on the mountain, he stated:

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

In Deuteronomy 5 verse 15 it explicitly lays out WHEN the sabbath day command was given (after the Exodus from Egyptian slavery) WHY it was given (as a remembrance of their being set free) and to WHOM it was given (Israel) :

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

It’s also made clear that the sabbath day command, is a covenant sign between God and Israel -not with anyone else.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you

That wouldn’t be much of a memorial of remembrance and a covenant sign - as God calls the sabbath day command in Exodus 31:13 - to give them a command that was ALREADY BEING KEPT since the 7th day of creation, now would it?

Obviously not

Moses said neither their father’s nor them were given the covenant and law given to Israel before it was given to them after their Exodus from Egypt, and other scriptures confirms this.

When the law and the covenant was given to Moses, it was given 430 years after Abraham, and that law did not nullify the Abrahamic covenant promise of faith:

Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

And that scripture confirms that because the law was not given in the time period between Adam and Moses, God will hold no one accountable for their sins (on judgment day) who lived during that time.

1. There was a time when there was no law, and no transgression of the law can occur, at the time that no law exists:

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

2. Death reigned from Adam to Moses - because sin entering the world brought death - but sin during that time was not counted against anyone, until Moses received the laws because there was no law:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Adam Clark commentary explains that passage succinctly:

1. That sin was in the world from Adam to Moses.

2. That law was not in the world from Adam to Moses during the space of about 2500 years; for, after Adam’s transgression, that law was abrogated; and, from that time, men were either under the general covenant of grace given to Adam or Noah, or under that which was specially made with Abraham.

3. That, therefore, the sins committed were not imputed unto them to death, for they did not sin after the similitude of Adam’s transgression; that is, they did not, like him, transgress a law, or rule of action, to which death, as the penalty, was annexed. And yet -

4. Death reigned over mankind during the period between Adam and Moses; therefore men did not die for their own transgressions, but in consequence of Adam’s one transgression.

All these facts refute the claims that the law and commands, especially the sabbath day command, were in place since day 7 of creation.

God indeed rested - once - after creation, but waited 2500 years to give anyone a command for a weekly sabbath day observance, until He gave it to Israel, as a covenant sign, and memorial of His deliverance of Israel from Egyptian bondage.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Hi Re, I think you helped me with posting, we will see how this works out. To answer this part. YHWH is God's name, it occurs thousands of times in the Bible, yet the translators of the KJV, not B, V stands for version of the Bible, the translators ignored God's name and changed it to Adonai, properly translated Lord. A good example of the manipulation is Ps 110:1 which is easy to see the alteration which contains both YHWH as well as Adonai, yet the KJV says The LORD said to my Lord, when in reality the Bible said Jehovah said to my Lord. It is notable however that where LORD is all capatalized it is where the Divine Name occurs. Some publishers have included that in the forward.

The AV1611 was the King James Holy Bible (KJB), or AV (Authorized Version).

Ecc_8:4 Where the word of a king is, there is power [Authority]: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?

The whole 'KJV' came about later to lessen its importance and significance when in company of other so called modern English translations.

Yes, Psalms 110 in KJB says,

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psa 110:1 לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה לאדני שׁב לימיני עד־אשׁית איביך הדם לרגליך׃

The NT says, in 3 places, by two authors (Matthew & Luke), both inspired of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and they did not use the koine Greek for the name of God "IEOVAH", but rather simply used the koine Greek "κυριος τω κυριω" to translate the OT text (and they were Jews, inspired of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and Christians), which is really the Father speaking to the Son:

Mat_22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Mat 22:44 ειπεν ο κυριος τω κυριω μου καθου εκ δεξιων μου εως αν θω τους εχθρους σου υποποδιον των ποδων σου

Luk_20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Luk 20:42 και αυτος δαβιδ λεγει εν βιβλω ψαλμων ειπεν ο κυριος τω κυριω μου καθου εκ δεξιων μου

Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:34 ου γαρ δαβιδ ανεβη εις τους ουρανους λεγει δε αυτος ειπεν ο κυριος τω κυριω μου καθου εκ δεξιων μου

This was why I asked the several questions that I did. Here they are again:

In the NT koine Greek that underlies the KJB, is there any place in which one Apostle or NT writer wrote in koine Greek the name "IEOVAH", or did every single one of the NT writers, in the original language, simply use "kurios" (kyrios), etc., when citing an OT passage with God's name in it or speaking about JEHOVAH specifically?

Question: If the NT writers, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost (you believe the NT is inspired of God, yes?), wrote in koine Greek a form of the word for 'Lord', such as the word "κυριε" (Hebrews 1:10 GNT TR) when translating from the Hebrew "יהוה" (Psalms 102:12), why cannot the KJB translators do the same when going from Hebrew to English and just use "Lord"?

Question: If the OT writers, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost (you believe the OT is inspired of God, yes?), wrote in Hebrew (some Syriack) a form of the word for 'Lord', such as the word "אדני" (adonai) (Psalms 16:2, etc) when referring to "יהוה" (Psalms 16:2, etc), or where they were referring to another place in the OT, or restating a section of the OT, and simply used "אדני" (adonai) where was "יהוה" in a previous place, why cannot the KJB translators do the same when going from Hebrew to English and use "Lord" or "LORD"?

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Hi Re, I think you helped me with posting, we will see how this works out. ...

Glad to be of help. It would not be fair to you, if I can do it, and you could not. It also makes for easier reading, and responding.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Yes Re, I consider the Bible to be God's inspired word, both the old and new testaments.

Glad to hear it Robert.

Robert Gwin said:
We believe that those are just titles given to the Hebrew and Greek portions of the Bible however, and really don't have any significance, as we believe the Bible is from Genesis to Revelation.

I too believe the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
We believe that Jehovah personally wrote the original tablets which Moses destroyed.

Ok. Sounds biblical.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu_5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Robert Gwin said:
Moses was commanded by God to restore them

Moses was commanded to bring up additional blank tablets:

Exo_34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

Exo_34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

Deu 10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.

Deu_10:3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

Robert Gwin said:
so the replacements were written by Moses.

That is incorrect Robert. God again wrote the words, not Moses:

Exo_34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

Deu 10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
Deu 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Deu 10:3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

You are probably referring to Exodus 34:27-28, but if you read carefully and prayerfully, along with Deuteronomy 10:2-4, and consider the pronoun, "he", refers back to the LORD and not Moses

Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he [context, LORD God] wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The other words which were before vs 27 is what Moses wrote:

Exo 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Exo 34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
Exo 34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exo 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
Exo 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Exo 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Exo 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
Exo 34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
Exo 34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
Exo 34:19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
Exo 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
Exo 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
Exo 34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
Exo 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.
Exo 34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
Exo 34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
We believe the words of the Bible are Gods. Inspired into the men who served as penmen to the recorded word.

Yes, the words of scripture came by "inspiration" (2 Timothy 3:16), and it was the Holy Ghost/Spirit that worked upon the men who wrote (Mark 12:36; Acts 1;16, etc).

Robert Gwin said:
As far as I know, which is little, the only faith that observes the Sabbath to a degree is the 7th day adventists

Yes and no. There are many groups that Keep the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD (JEHOVAH), the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10; Isaiah 58:13).

List of Sabbath-keeping churches - Wikipedia

Mennonites, 7th Day Baptists, 7th day men (Ireland), etc all have kept God's Holy day, and others long before them all the way back to Adam, and God Himself. Can be demonstrated from historical sources upon request.

Robert Gwin said:
however they are hypocritical in doing so.

I will take this to mean you have something to share specifically about the Seventh-day Adventists as a whole body. You have used the word "they". Can you give specific examples on a world wide body, for you might find individuals who are hypocrites, but the Bible told us of these, the goats, the tares, the foolish. Shall I use the same scales for the WTS members I know and blame the whole organization on a few lackluster characters? I should think not.

Robert Gwin said:
I know a few of them

You first said, "... they [context, "the 7th day adventists"] are hypocritical in doing so ..." and then say "a few of them". That is contradictory. Shall we blame the whole for the few? How would it be if I pointed out the same in the WTS org? I think it a little unfair. However, ...

Robert Gwin said:
that worked 2nd shift.

Can you clarify what is the "work", and by "2nd shift" what do you mean time wise please. Thank you. I can then further address this after your clarification.

Robert Gwin said:
I knew one that would not work on Saturday, but did not see the need to not work after dusk on Friday.

Can you clarify the "work" please? There is a "work" which can be properly done on the Sabbath, and a "work" that cannot. There is Holy work, and common work. The two are distinct, even in the commandment (Exodus 20:8-11).

Robert Gwin said:
Post Christian Jehovah's witnesses do not observe the sabbath based on Paul's writings, which we believe are God's words at: (Colossians 2:16) 16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath.

That is a misunderstanding of what Paul stated, and an incorrect translation, "eat" (koine Greek says, "βρωσει" (N-DSF, being a Noun, not an Verb) which is "food", KJB "meat" (Genesis 1)), the drink is also a Noun, "ποσει" not a verb (N-DSF) and "of a sabbath", the koine Greek is plural, not singular, "σαββατων" ["sabbath [days] [KJB]". Can I share with you please on where Paul is quoting from, and why, and where else he also makes the same statements which all demonstrate that Paul is not referring to the 7th day (Exodus 20:8-11) at all in Colossians 2?

Paul also wrote Hebrews 3-4, which is the two chapters which shows that the Sabbath rest remains for us (Christians) to keep. I can also show that also if you would like. Just ask please. I will not force anything.

Paul also wrote, in many places that Christians are to fulfil God's law, by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, as for instance (many more upon request):

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As did James:

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

As did John:

1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Robert Gwin said:
I personally do not know anyone who observes the Sabbath, do you Re?

Yes. First and foremost, JEHOVAH elohiym. Secondly, I personally do. Thirdly, very many others whom I know personally, and second-handedly also do, and many others which can be shown upon request.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
I definitely see it this way as well Re, and I apologize to you for not caring as much as you do to resolve the point. This could take considerable time to research, and I simply am unwilling to put in the time for what I have openly stated is unprovable anyway, and what appears to me as being irrelevant to salvation. Added to that, we are within a few yrs in our understanding with yours, how critical is that in the scheme of things? Please forgive me for what appears to be rudeness, as I truly care about you, and would go to greater lengths to discuss this if I felt your life was on the line.

Hey Robert, I get it in one sense, and in another I don't. To me I want to know if what I believe is accurate. I have left the Roman Catholic faith, when after I found out all of the deception, and being deceived for 30 years. I want no more deception, or errors.

I think I can prove the WTS/JW chart is in error in the main, and even in the matter of the 'stake' itself at the center from pure scripture. I am only asking if you would like to consider my reasons from scripture and history.

I know what it feels like to come up against a serious challenge to my beliefs. My head/heart wrestled with a lot of things then. A real "CogDis" (Cognitive Dissonance).

God gave me the victory, and it took many hours of prayerful study (God wasn't going to simply insert it into my head).

You are not rude. I think there is another underlying reason.

The Seventh-day Adventist chart deals directly with salvation, even the plan of Redemption. If it is in error in the main, then there is no salvation. You'll see why if you decide to continue discussion with me on it.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Mungo said:
There are three major Covenants. ...

Actually no. The covenant that God made with Abraham is simply a continuation of the Everlasting Covenant.

The salvation of the human race has ever been the object of the councils of heaven. The covenant of mercy was made before the foundation of the world. It has existed from all eternity, and is called the everlasting covenant.

Gen_17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Noah also shared in it:

Gen_9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Israel the peoples were supposed to share in it:

1Ch_16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Isa_24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

It is for the Christian:

Jer_32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

It was ratified by the blood of Jesus:

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

For it was made between the Father and Son in Eternity before all creation existed:

Mal_2:5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

The "two major covenants" (sic), as I understand them from scripture (KJB), are:

[1] The "Everlasting Covenant" (aka, "New Covenant", "Covenant of Life and Peace" (Malachi 2:5)), which was formed between the Person/Being of the Father and the Person/Being of the Son (aka: 'Israel'; Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1) in eternity past before angels or men were created, and witnessed by the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and later ratified by Jesus' blood (Psalms 116:14,18 and the Father's confirmation/ratification after Jesus' ascension in Psalms 61:5, sealed by the Holy Ghost/Spirit). God promised to write His Law (Ten Commandments, God's "my law", "my covenant"; Exodus 16:4; Jeremiah 6:19, 9:13, 16:11, 26:4, 31:33, 44:10; Ezekiel 22:26; &c) upon the hearts of mankind that they may do them (Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 11:19, 36:25-29, 37:26-28; Hebrews 8:10, 10:16; 2 Corinthians 3:3)

[2] The 'old Covenant' (Hebrews 8:13), which was formed between God and Moses & the peoples of Jacob (their leaders) (Exodus 19:3-9, 24:1-11), of which all peoples (except Christ Jesus) failed in keeping their promises (Hebrews 8:6-8) to God, even beginning to fail as soon as the golden calf incident (Exodus 32:1), was where the peoples promised God that they would keep God's law, "my covenant" (Ten Commandments).

In this, Exodus 19 & 24, reveals two distinct and separate covenants:

[2A.] God's Law, "my covenant" (Ten Commandments) (in Exodus 19:5).

[2B.] "... if ... then ... and ..." of God (Exodus 19:5-6) and the promise of the people themselves, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Exodus 19:8), with Moses as the Mediator of that agreement (Exodus 19:7, &c).

God's people have always seen the Ten Commandments, not as the Old Covenant itself, but as the eternal promises ("better promises", "I will") of God in the New Covenant, and to that which the peoples agreed to "do" in the Old Covenant. The Ten Commandments were never an agreement (a covenant) between God and the people, but rather they were always that perfect will and character of God which were to be done or carried out by all mankind, after the image and likeness of God by and through the Holy Ghost/Spirit.

Christians are truly participating in the New Covenant.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Mungo said:
In Ex 32 we read that the Israelites broke the Covenant by worshipping a golden calf. Therefore God had to make a new Covenant with them (or renew the previous one). We read about this in Ex 34

Vs 10 And he said, “Behold, I make a covenant…..

Vs 27-28 And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 2And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The Ten Commandments were Covenant law of the Sinai Covenant. As such they are not applicable to gentiles because
a) they were never valid for Gentiles
b) the Sinai Covenant has been abolished

Again, not so. When God spoke to the peoples that came out of Egypt, they were a "mixed multitude":

Exo_12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

That multitude included more than the children of Israel. It also included Egyptians, Ethiopians, etc. and even Moses' wife, Zipporah, who was of Midian.

Exo 2:15 Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.

Exo_2:21 And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.

It is not a new covenant made, but simply the same agreement made in Exodus 19:3-8, ratified by blood in Exodus 24.

Exo 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

This is what is found again in Exodus 34:

Exo 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

Exo 34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

Notice what the covenant actually is. Not the Ten Commandments themselves. The Ten Commandments are what they were to obey, along with everything else they agree to, when they promised God, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Exodus 19:8); "All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient." (Exodus 24:7) The Ten Commandments are God's "my covenant" (Exodus 19:5), His Law. This is not that "covenant" God made with the peoples, wherein God said, "... if ... then ... and ...".

There are two distinct covenants in Exodus 19.

[A.] God's Law, "my covenant" (Ten Commandments) (in Exodus 19:5).

[B.] "... if ... then ... and ..." of God (Exodus 19:5-6) and the promise of the people themselves, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Exodus 19:8), with Moses as the Mediator of that agreement (Exodus 19:7, &c).

You have a misunderstanding when the word "covenant" is used. The Ten Commandments are indeed a "covenant", but not theirs, instead rather it is God's. The peoples promises to God to obey in all things, and God would bless is the other covenant. So in Exodus 34:28 that refers, in context to God's "my covenant", not the peoples covenant with God found in Exodus 19 and 24. God's "my covenant" existed long before Moses even came into existence.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Mungo said:
@ReChoired
You claim the "Ten Commandments were already known long before Mt. Sinai". This is a very misleading claim.

What was known before Sinai were God's moral laws.

It is not misleading (Ten Commandments were already known long before Mt. Sinai). It is very plain.

You said "moral laws" were "known before Sinai".

All Ten Commandments are "moral", being "spiritual":

Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul, what Law are you talking about?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Ah, the Ten Commandments. They are a package deal:

Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu_10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

You will not find anywhere in scripture, the 9 moral commandments of God. Doesn't exist, except in your head Mungo.

All Ten Commandments were spoken from Heaven:

Exo_20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Heb_12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Many know this:

Albert Barnes [Presbyterian]:

“... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...”

Adam Clarke [Methodist]:

“... There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...”

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown [theologians]:

“... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...”

Justin Edwards [Congregationalist]:

“… A holy-day-sabbath-days; in the original, a festival-sabbaths. The days referred to are those required to be observed in the ceremonial law-days associated by God with meats, drinks, and new moons. The passage does not refer to the Sabbath of the moral law, associated with the commands forbidding theft, murder, and adultery. This weekly Sabbath was never against men or contrary to them, but was always for them, and promotive of their highest good. The observance of it caused them to ride upon the high places of the earth, and to possess the heritage of God’s people. Isaiah 58:13-14; Jeremiah 17:21-27. …”

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Mungo said:
Worshipping God is a moral duty but when we do it is not in itself a moral issue.

"Worshipping God is a moral duty ..."

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

PS. just in case you missed Exodus 20:8-11, it deals with the entire week, not just the 7th day.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Mungo said:
God made it so for the Israelites because the was the sign of their Covenant with God.

And the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the people of Israel, ‘You shall keep my sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. …...

Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the sabbath, observing the sabbath throughout their generations, as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign for ever between me and the people of Israel (Ex 31:12-13, 16-17)

Yes, it was made with "Israel" and is a "sign" to the people of "Israel".

Jesus is the real and true Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15,19-21; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

This is why scripture teaches:

Who was the Sabbath made for according to scripture?

Yes, there is an Adam at Genesis, but it is really the greater Adam:

Mar_2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom_5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Did you see who the Sabbath was made for? It was made for the Son, at the request of the Father to the Son (Genesis 1-2). In other words, the Father gave the plans/instructions to the Son, and the Son made it, as a gift from the Father. It would, humanly speaking, be like a parent giving their child a set of legos with instructions on how to build something neat. The child then follows those instructions, and receives the true gift.

Who, according to the Bible [KJB], is Israel? In the Bible there are two Israels, a 'natural' [of the 'flesh', carnal] and a 'spiritual' [of the 'Spirit'], as it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Consider:

Romans 9:6 KJB - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 9:7 KJB - Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 9:8 KJB - That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Again, Israel after the flesh, carnal:

1 Corinthians 10:18 KJB - Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Again, Israel after the Spirit, spiritual:

Galatians 6:16 KJB - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Hebrews 13:10 KJB - We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

Israel, after the flesh, was not originally a 'peoples', but rather instead, was a single person, being 'the Head', ruler to be, of/over 'a body', a nation:

Genesis 32:28 KJB - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Genesis 35:10 KJB - And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Genesis 35:21 KJB - And Israel journeyed, and spread his tent beyond the tower of Edar.

The 'peoples', after the flesh, came from this single person:

Genesis 32:32 KJB - Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

Genesis 35:22 KJB - And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:

Israel, the person, is as a “king” which is a head or ruler [Joshua 11:10; 1 Samuel 15:17; 1 Kings 1:35, 1 Chronicles 11:2; Psalms 105:20 KJB], over a body or kingdom/land [Isaiah 62:1-5 KJB]. The two [king & kingdom/land] are two things, yet joined, as husband and wife, or Head and body, Father and children, etc.

Yet, as it is written in Romans, it is not those who are of the 'flesh' which are Israel, but rather those of the promise, in Christ Jesus, the seed.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Mungo said:
God made it so for the Israelites because the was the sign of their Covenant with God.

Who then is the true and real spiritual Israel, and who then are Israel's spiritual children? Jesus Christ, being the Head, and his body, his disciples, his children, his kingdom (Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:8-21; John 13:33):

Matthew 2:13 KJB - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matthew 2:14 KJB - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Matthew 2:19 KJB But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Matthew 2:20 KJB Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

Matthew 2:21 KJB And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

It's really Jesus' land. He is the true King of it. He was the one who entered first leading the people in.

Please notice that the scripture [KJB; which cannot be broken, John 10:35 KJB] by the Gospel writer, Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], is citing an Old Testament prophecy [Hosea 11:1 KJB], and claims its proper and actual fulfillment is in Christ Jesus [not Israel after the flesh, who [person [Jacob, son of Isaac] and nation [his physical children]] was merely a type [Koine Greek, 'τύπος', transliterated 'tupos'], an example, earthly, a shadow [Koine Greek, 'σκία', transliterated 'skia'] [Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 10:6,11; Philippians 3:17; Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5, 10:1 KJB], while Jesus Christ is the anti-type [Koine Greek, 'ἀντίτυπον', transliterated 'anti-tupon', see also 1 Peter 3:21 KJB], substance, body [Koine Greek, 'σῶμα', transliteration 'swma' [thus 'soma'] [where 'w' is O-mega, not O-micron], reality, heavenly and Light [1 Corinthians 10:3-4; Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5, 10:1 KJB]]. What prophet gave the prophecy? It was the prophet Hosea:

Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

According to the prophet Hosea, “Israel” is the [male, “him”] “child”, even the “son” of God [JEHOVAH, the Father], whom God “called” “out of Egypt”.

Compare again to the words specifically used by Matthew in Matthew 2:13-15:

"the young child", "into Egypt", "the young child", "him", "the young child", "into Egypt", "that it might be fulfilled" "which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet", "Out of Egypt", "have I called", "my son".

To the words used in Hosea 11:1:

“a child”, “him”, “called” “my son” “out of Egypt”.

Who then according to Matthew and Hosea [under inspiration of the Holy Ghost] is really and truly “Israel” and the fulfillment of the coming out of Egypt.

Is it 'Jacob, son of Isaac' [Israel after the flesh], or Jesus the Christ [Israel, after the Spirit]?

While Israel after the flesh [Jacob, son of Isaac] was indeed called out of Egypt [in the days of Moses], this was not the truest fulfillment, but merely a shadow, a type, an example of the great plan of redemption, in miniature.

Jesus is throughout the entire scriptures, in type, and in reality [Proverbs 40:7; Luke 24:27; John 1:45; John 5:39; Hebrews 10:7; Acts 3:18, 28:23 KJB, etc].

Jesus Christ, is the true person, Israel, the true Son of God the Father, who Matthew [under inspiration of the Holy Ghost], says was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Hosea. The New Testament passage explained the Old Testament passage. Who will say, “Not so.” unto the Holy Ghost? I warn, in love.

I did not say so, the scripture [KJB] itself, said so, for scripture interprets scripture [Genesis 40:8; 1 Corinthians 2:13; Isaiah 28:10,13 KJB, etc], and it is God who defines His own word.

Jesus, has many names in scripture. “Israel” is one of His many names, which name signifies His character [“as his name is so is he” - 1 Samuel 25:25; Proverbs 22:1; Ecclesiastes 7:1 KJB], and it means, He who overcomes [temptation, world, flesh, sin, satan, self] with God [see Genesis 32:28 KJB], even as it is written:

John 16:33 KJB - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 3:21 KJB - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with this spiritual “Israel”, this “Judah” and His “house” [2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 KJB]:

Hebrews 3:6 KJB - But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Isaiah 42:1 KJB - Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Hebrews 8:6 KJB - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 KJB - For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 KJB - For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Robert Gwin · Jun 30, 2021

Mungo said:
There are three major Covenants. You have omitted the Abrahamic Covenant(s).

It is because of the Covenant with Abraham that we, non Jews, come into the family of God.

God says to Abraham
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves. (Gen 12:2-3).

That promise of worldwide blessing was re-iterated in Gen 22:18 by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves.

Paul writes in Gal 3:26-27) For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.

I did and there is a reason why, we did not become His covenanted people as a nation until the Law covenant given through Moses. The people living in the day of Abraham were not "in" the covenant. Although all humans who receive everlasting life will have benefited by that covenant.
And in Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.

Paul compares the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants in his allegory of Hagar and Sarah in Gal 4:21-29. Again he emphasises that we are children of the (Abrahamic) promise.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Curtis said:
Quoting Exodus, which was written after Israel’s Exodus from Egypt, hence its name, hardly proves anything about whether the law and Decalogue were in place since day 7 of creation.

All of scripture was written post exodus of Egypt. It is a non-sequitur to make such a statement. I provided what the scriptures said. Even the Ten Commandments were engraved post exodus. That has nothing to say of whether they existed before in unwritten form through common knowledge handed down from father to son from the beginning or not.

Curtis said:
First of all, the Decalogue IS THE COVENANT, says scripture, being called the covenant written on two tables of stone:

Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

No, the Ten Commandments, were written on Two Tables. Thus they are "the tables of" the "covenant". See the distinction? You will never find in scripture where the Ten Commandments are the covenant between God and the peoples. Are the Ten Commandments a "covenant"? Yes, but it is God's "my covenant" (Exodus 19:5), not the actual covenant made with the peoples. They are (part of) the commandments which the peoples entered into covenant agreement with God to obey. They are not the covenant entered into itself.

The tables of stone, upon which God himself had inscribed the ten commandments. Hence it was called the ark of God's testament, or the ark of the covenant, since the ten commandments were the basis of the covenant made between God and Israel.

Look at Exodus 19:3-8 carefully:

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

The words in red are the 'old covenant' agreement between God and the peoples. This was never made with any other before them. Not with Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, or Noah or Adam, etc.

The words in blue, refer to the Ten Commandments, which are God's "my covenant". Notice, that God's "my covenant" already existed before the agreement and 'old covenant'.

In other words, the people entered into an agreement with God (thus a covenant), about obeying God in His "my covenant" (Ten Commandments).

Notice what the covenant actually is. Not the Ten Commandments themselves. The Ten Commandments are what they were to obey, along with everything else they agree to, when they promised God, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Exodus 19:8); "All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient." (Exodus 24:7) The Ten Commandments are God's "my covenant" (Exodus 19:5), His Law. This is not that "covenant" God made with the peoples, wherein God said, "... if ... then ... and ...".

There are two distinct covenants in Exodus 19.

[A.] God's Law, "my covenant" (Ten Commandments) (in Exodus 19:5), aka "His covenant" (Exodus 2:24; Deuteronomy 4:13; 1 Chronicles 16:15).

[B.] "... if ... then ... and ..." of God (Exodus 19:5-6) and the promise of the people themselves, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Exodus 19:8), with Moses as the Mediator of that agreement (Exodus 19:7, &c).

You have a misunderstanding when the word "covenant" is used. The Ten Commandments are indeed a "covenant", but not theirs, instead rather it is God's. The peoples promises to God to obey in all things, and God would bless is the other covenant. So in Exodus 34:28 that refers, in context to God's "my covenant", not the peoples covenant with God found in Exodus 19 and 24. God's "my covenant" existed long before Moses even came into existence.

Look:

Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

The Ten Commandments were the basis for the agreement. The people promised to keep that law, and God promised to bless them in return. The Ten Commandments are not a "covenant" made with the peoples, but rather a "covenant" of God commanded to the peoples who agreed with God in a covenant to obey everything that God said.

The Tables of Stone were "cut", based upon Israel's agreement ['covenant'] to obey all that the Lord had said, which is the [old] covenant that they entered into with God about His "my covenant". The Law, the Ten Commandments is the same in both, but the two covenants are different in their relationship to God (see 2 Corinthians 3).

Many commentators understand this, including John Wesley (see John Wesley, Misc. Works, page 405, etc), among others, who understand that the Ten Commandments are not the 'old covenant' itself, but rather are the "terms of the covenant" that they, the peoples, agreed with God to obey earlier.

The 'first/old' covenant is one of "works"! All that the Lord hath said "we will do".

The "new/abrahamic" is one of "Faith", the Lord said, "I will...", but the Law is the same! This is what Paul refers to in Galatians, speaking of Hagar/Sinai and Sarah/Jerusalem above!

COVENANTS

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