COVENANTS

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Curtis said:
In Deuteronomy 5, Moses gives Israel, what? The covenant God gave on the mountain - the one Moses said no one but them received before, not even their FATHERS

True. Never before Exodus 19 & 24 was such an agreement entered into:

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Yet, God's "my covenant" (the Ten Commandments) already existed prior to that agreement, covenant. Even with Abraham:

Gen_26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen_18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Notice carefully in Exodus 19:6, "these are the words" of the 'old covenant'. The Ten Commandments are differing a "word" (Deuteronomy 4:2).

Curtis said:
- and as part of that covenant

You just said it yourself. "part of". That, by your admission, shows that the Ten Commandments are not the covenant itself. They are part of the "terms" agreed to in covenant with God. While the Ten Commandments existed prior to this, the agreement/covenant then made (entered into) was never made before them.

Curtis said:
He gives them the ten commands

Indeed, "commands". They had agreed 3 days prior to "obey all" of what God commanded.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Again, "his covenant", the "my covenant" of God is not the 'old covenant' (agreement of the peoples to obey God), they are what the peoples agreed to "obey" and "perform".

Curtis said:
- then note that AFTER God gave Israel the sabbath day command in the scripture passage below, He said exactly WHEN , WHY and TO WHOM He gave the sabbath day command in verse 15:

...

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Except you need to look more carefully at Deuteronomy 5:12 first, before considering Deuteronomy 5:15.

Deuteronomy 5:15 is not the primary reason, but a secondary reason. Look at Deuteronomy 5:12:

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Did you notice the words "Keep", "as" (the manner already given) and "hath commanded" (past tense)?

When did God command them in their covenant agreement? Exodus 20:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Did you see the primary reason ("For") in verse 11? The "therefore" in Deuteronomy 5:15 is secondary (additional reason) to that previous "for".

Can you show me anywhere in Exodus where God then made the Sabbath holy? It was already "made" (Mark 2:27) holy (sanctified) from Genesis 2:1-3. It was already in existence long before Mt. Sinai, even as Paul states:

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

The passage in Deuteronomy, thus shows two reasons, a primary (Exodus 20:11), and then a secondary in addition to the primary (Deuteronomy 5:15). The first is a matter of Creation, the second a matter of Redemption.

God had already reminded Israel the peoples to keep the Sabbath of the LORD through Moses (Exodus 5 & 16). Moses was a sabbath reformer, for while in Egypt they had forgotten God's sabbath as a whole (though some individuals still observed it). See Genesis 18:19; 26:5 as previously given, for Abraham had kept the sabbath of the LORD, and taught i to his children, and they to theirs. Even Joseph had it in Egypt, but due to the long years of captivity they backslid, and eventually forgot. This is why God said "Remember" (it already existed), and asked them in Exodus 16:

Exo_16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Exo_16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Read 1 Corinthians 10. As they were tested on this, so too we upon whom the ends of the world have come. Then read Revelation 14:6-12. Same test.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Curtis said:
... It’s also made clear that the sabbath day command, is a covenant sign between God and Israel -not with anyone else.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you

That wouldn’t be much of a memorial of remembrance and a covenant sign - as God calls the sabbath day command in Exodus 31:13 - to give them a command that was ALREADY BEING KEPT since the 7th day of creation, now would it?

That God chose to utilize that which already existed (Sabbath) as a sign of covenant relationship does not mean that it could not have existed before/previously. For instance, the "rainbow" already existed, and could be seen in Heaven where God's throne is, and also on earth in the mist that arose, or spray of water and sunlight. Circumcision also already existed with Abraham (at least), and yet God required it also of the peoples Israel, & etc. that would join themselves to him (Gentiles). It was as much a 'sign' to these, as it was to Abraham. There can also be multiple signs, that one is with God.

Read 1 Corinthians 10 & 15:46.

The Sabbath is a perpetual covenant between God and the people of God, and always has been:

Exo_31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

As for "Israel", this was already addressed here - COVENANTS

I quote:

"Yes, it was made with "Israel" and is a "sign" to the people of "Israel".

Jesus is the real and true Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15,19-21; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

This is why scripture teaches:

Who was the Sabbath made for according to scripture?

Yes, there is an Adam at Genesis, but it is really the greater Adam:

Mar_2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom_5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Did you see who the Sabbath was made for? It was made for the Son, at the request of the Father to the Son (Genesis 1-2). In other words, the Father gave the plans/instructions to the Son, and the Son made it, as a gift from the Father. It would, humanly speaking, be like a parent giving their child a set of legos with instructions on how to build something neat. The child then follows those instructions, and receives the true gift.

Who, according to the Bible [KJB], is Israel? In the Bible there are two Israels, a 'natural' [of the 'flesh', carnal] and a 'spiritual' [of the 'Spirit'], as it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Consider:

Romans 9:6 KJB - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 9:7 KJB - Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 9:8 KJB - That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Again, Israel after the flesh, carnal:

1 Corinthians 10:18 KJB - Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Again, Israel after the Spirit, spiritual:

Galatians 6:16 KJB - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Hebrews 13:10 KJB - We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

Israel, after the flesh, was not originally a 'peoples', but rather instead, was a single person, being 'the Head', ruler to be, of/over 'a body', a nation:

Genesis 32:28 KJB - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Genesis 35:10 KJB - And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Genesis 35:21 KJB - And Israel journeyed, and spread his tent beyond the tower of Edar.

The 'peoples', after the flesh, came from this single person:

Genesis 32:32 KJB - Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

Genesis 35:22 KJB - And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:

Israel, the person, is as a “king” which is a head or ruler [Joshua 11:10; 1 Samuel 15:17; 1 Kings 1:35, 1 Chronicles 11:2; Psalms 105:20 KJB], over a body or kingdom/land [Isaiah 62:1-5 KJB]. The two [king & kingdom/land] are two things, yet joined, as husband and wife, or Head and body, Father and children, etc.

Yet, as it is written in Romans, it is not those who are of the 'flesh' which are Israel, but rather those of the promise, in Christ Jesus, the seed."

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Curtis said:
... When the law and the covenant was given to Moses, it was given 430 years after Abraham, and that law did not nullify the Abrahamic covenant promise of faith:

Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

Yes, "a law" "and" "a covenant". Two things. They are not the same thing.

What was given 430 years after Abraham? Not the Ten Commandments (which were already known and practiced, though the sabbath was being forgotten in Egypt), but the "book of the law" which Moses wrote.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What "law"? The one that had "works":

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

That was found in the "book of the law" written by Moses. There was never a curse in God's Ten Commandments. There were curses associated with the other things. There is not one faulty promise in the Ten Commandments, which are "perfect" (Psalms 19:7). The "works" of the book of the law, are all of the sacrifices, and ordinances of the worldly sanctuary, etc.

Did you read the words "it (the law, in the book (not stone tables written by God) of the law, which was in the side of the Ark (not inside of the Ark as the Ten Commandments) was added because of transgressions".

What "transgressions"? Transgressions of what? The Ten Commandments which already existed and were known (Romans 5:12-13).

Therefore, there was another "law" (book of the law) "added" to the Law of God (moral law, spiritual law; Romans 7:14) which already existed.

Abraham had the same law of God:

Gen_26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen_18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

He knew it was sin/transgression to violate them. Even so did others:

Gen_4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Gen 12:18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

Gen_18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

By they way (peoples in the cities of the plain, like Sodom and Gomorrah) - they died for their "sin", and were a type of the coming fire (2 Peter 2:6; Jude 1:7; so much for the claim that you made, "... God will hold no one accountable for their sins (on judgment day) who lived during that time ..."; utter rubbish).

Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
Gen 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Gen 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

Many more could be listed. All Ten Commandments in fact.

ReChoired · Jun 30, 2021

Curtis said:
...

1. There was a time when there was no law, and no transgression of the law can occur, at the time that no law exists:

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. ...

Curtis, you may not realize it, but you just contradicted yourself.

You cited Galatians 3:17, which is in the context of Galatians 3:19:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Romans 4:15 is not saying that there was no Law of God (spiritual Law of Ten Commandments) in existence before Moses. It is simply pointing out the obvious that sin or transgression and accountability for such can only take place if there is a Law to violate. Galatians 3:19 proves that such Law of God existed previous to Moses or Mt. Sinai, for there were many "transgressions" and many held accountable for violating such. Even Exodus 9 (Exodus 9:34) and Exodus16 showed that much (Exodus 16:28), and Joseph (Genesis 50:17), and Abraham long before showed that as well (Genesis 18:20, 26:5), along with Job (Job 4:8, 5:16, 6:29,30, 7:21, 10:6,14, 11:6,14, 13:23, 14:17, 15:5,16, 20:27, 21:19, 22:23, 31:3,28,33, 33:9, 34:8,10,22,32, 36:10,21,23); and Noah (Job 22:15-16; 2 Peter 3:6), and Cain long long before them all (Genesis 4:17), all the way back unto Lucifer in Heaven (2 Peter 2:4; Ezekiel 28:15,18).

Job_36:10 He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.

Job 22:15 Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden?
Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

They were judged (context, 2 Peter 2), even as those in Sodom and Gomorrah were, for their "unlawful deeds".

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

What "law" Curtis? One must have existed.

Curtis said:
... 2. Death reigned from Adam to Moses - because sin entering the world

Sin is a violation of God's character and His law. See previous verses in evidence. The reason death reigned, because no one before Moses had ever been permanently resurrected. Moses was, and taken to heaven, thus breaking death for the first time. Death is the wages for sin:

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin is the transgression of the Law of God:

1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Job_13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Job_37:12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.

Look:

Exo_34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

How could God say that (already present tense and ongoing), if His Law (Ten Commandments) had not existed before? Did God not show mercy upon the people of Sodom by rescuing them by Abraham? Did God not show punishment for violation after knowing, and destroying their lives and cities?

Gen_50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

Curtis said:
... brought death - but sin during that time was not counted against anyone, until Moses received the laws because there was no law:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

As I have just shown you have misunderstood the meaning of those words.

Paul said "sin was in the world" even before the "added" "law" (not Ten Commandments) at Mt. Sinai in the book of the law. Paul is saying how could God impute sin to those before Moses. He says there was God's law already in existence, before the 'book of the law', and even showed this in Romans 1.

Paul never says that their sins (before Mt. Sinai) were not imputed to them. He is making a statement of fact. It's like saying I cannot be held accountable for speeding if there is no law against speeding. Yet they were all held accountable, and thus God's law existed prior to Mt. Sinai.

Curtis said:
...

Adam Clark commentary explains that passage succinctly ...

Ah, we begin to see where your theology comes from, not God's word, but the opinions of fallible men.

Adam Clark is simply in error, as shown - Isaiah 8:20.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Those men did not sin like Adam (for they could not eat of the forbidden tree as he (Adam) did), but they sinned in their own ways, which all violated God's Law, like Cain which murdered (1 John 3:12). Murder (Exodus 20:13).

Men die for their own transgressions, not their fathers:

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

It is true, that in Adam the first all men would have died permanently, if not for Christ Jesus stepping in and taking the blow by promise, Genesis 3:15,22. Thus all men were spared from simply dying in Adam. All men die for their own transgressions, not Adam's.

Curtis · Jun 30, 2021

ReChoired said:
Curtis, you may not realize it, but you just contradicted yourself.

You cited Galatians 3:17, which is in the context of Galatians 3:19:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

That’s no contradiction at all.

The law was given because sin was in the world between Adam and Moses, but no one knew what sin was, because there was no law - the law that was added was 430 years after Abraham, when it was given to Moses.

When you quote the whole passage, instead of part of it for a proof text, it becomes undeniable that the law given because of transgression was 430 years after the Abrahamic covenant was given TO Abraham.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

The law was given 430 years after what event? After THE PROMISES MADE TO ABRAHAM, verse 16.

That’s just too clear as to its meaning.

Curtis · Jul 1, 2021

ReChoired said:
Curtis, you may not realize it, but you just contradicted yourself.

You cited Galatians 3:17, which is in the context of Galatians 3:19:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Romans 4:15 is not saying that there was no Law of God (spiritual Law of Ten Commandments) in existence before Moses. It is simply pointing out the obvious that sin or transgression and accountability for such can only take place if there is a Law to violate. Galatians 3:19 proves that such Law of God existed previous to Moses or Mt. Sinai, for there were many "transgressions" and many held accountable for violating such. Even Exodus 9 (Exodus 9:34) and Exodus16 showed that much (Exodus 16:28), and Joseph (Genesis 50:17), and Abraham long before showed that as well (Genesis 18:20, 26:5), along with Job (Job 4:8, 5:16, 6:29,30, 7:21, 10:6,14, 11:6,14, 13:23, 14:17, 15:5,16, 20:27, 21:19, 22:23, 31:3,28,33, 33:9, 34:8,10,22,32, 36:10,21,23); and Noah (Job 22:15-16; 2 Peter 3:6), and Cain long long before them all (Genesis 4:17), all the way back unto Lucifer in Heaven (2 Peter 2:4; Ezekiel 28:15,18).

Job_36:10 He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.

Job 22:15 Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden?
Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

They were judged (context, 2 Peter 2), even as those in Sodom and Gomorrah were, for their "unlawful deeds".

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

What "law" Curtis? One must have existed.

Sin is a violation of God's character and His law. See previous verses in evidence. The reason death reigned, because no one before Moses had ever been permanently resurrected. Moses was, and taken to heaven, thus breaking death for the first time. Death is the wages for sin:

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin is the transgression of the Law of God:

1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Job_13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Job_37:12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.

Look:

Exo_34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

How could God say that (already present tense and ongoing), if His Law (Ten Commandments) had not existed before? Did God not show mercy upon the people of Sodom by rescuing them by Abraham? Did God not show punishment for violation after knowing, and destroying their lives and cities?

Gen_50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

As I have just shown you have misunderstood the meaning of those words.

Paul said "sin was in the world" even before the "added" "law" (not Ten Commandments) at Mt. Sinai in the book of the law. Paul is saying how could God impute sin to those before Moses. He says there was God's law already in existence, before the 'book of the law', and even showed this in Romans 1.

Paul never says that their sins (before Mt. Sinai) were not imputed to them. He is making a statement of fact. It's like saying I cannot be held accountable for speeding if there is no law against speeding. Yet they were all held accountable, and thus God's law existed prior to Mt. Sinai.

Ah, we begin to see where your theology comes from, not God's word, but the opinions of fallible men.

Adam Clark is simply in error, as shown - Isaiah 8:20.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Those men did not sin like Adam (for they could not eat of the forbidden tree as he (Adam) did), but they sinned in their own ways, which all violated God's Law, like Cain which murdered (1 John 3:12). Murder (Exodus 20:13).

Men die for their own transgressions, not their fathers:

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

It is true, that in Adam the first all men would have died permanently, if not for Christ Jesus stepping in and taking the blow by promise, Genesis 3:15,22. Thus all men were spared from simply dying in Adam. All men die for their own transgressions, not Adam's.

Death came to all men between Adam and Moses because when Adam sinned, the tree of life was removed, which would have kept everyone from ever dying:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”

Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.

Gen 3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

That they died doesn’t prove everyone that died between Adam and Moses died as punishment for their sins, because there was no law at that time, as Moses said in Deuteronomy 5. we nor our fathers had this covenant law given to us, that I’m giving to you today.

Romans 5 clearly says that those who sinned between Adam and Moses did not break Gods - law as Adam did in eating forbidden fruit - because where there is no law is no imputing of sin.

Rom 5:13 There was sin in the world before the Law was given; but where there is no law, no account is kept of sins.

Rom 5:14 But from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, death ruled over all human beings, even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam did when he disobeyed God's command. Adam was a figure of the one who was to come.

That’s clear all by itself, yet when I cite scholarship which explains the passage in detail, you claim I’m getting my doctrine from scholars and not from scripture.

Curtis · Jul 1, 2021

ReChoired said:
How could God say that (already present tense and ongoing), if His Law (Ten Commandments) had not existed before? Did God not show mercy upon the people of Sodom by rescuing them by Abraham? Did God not show punishment for violation after knowing, and destroying their lives and cities?

Gen_50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

Your error is in citing Lot and Abraham having some kind of law and commands, and equate that with proof they already had the law given to Moses, including the Decalogue.

Everyone who lived after Noah had the Noahic covenant laws, laws given by God - not the 613 laws given to Moses that included the Decalogue.

They are:

1.Do not deny God.
2.Do not blaspheme God.
3.Do not murder.
4.Do not engage in incestuous, adulterous or other immoral sexual relationships.
5.Do not steal.
6.Do not eat of a live animal.
7.Establish courts/legal system to ensure law and obedience.

In 'The Noahide Laws,' Jeffrey Spitzer offers us this further information:

The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments: [to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8). Source:The Noahide Laws | My Jewish Learning

They did NOT have the law of Moses or the ten commands.

Mungo · Jul 1, 2021

ReChoired said:
Actually no. The covenant that God made with Abraham is simply a continuation of the Everlasting Covenant.

The salvation of the human race has ever been the object of the councils of heaven. The covenant of mercy was made before the foundation of the world. It has existed from all eternity, and is called the everlasting covenant.

I'll give you a prize for inventiveness but the above is not biblical. It only exists in your head ReChoired.

From the beginning God has dealt with mankind via series of covenants - eight in all. These are separate covenants, although some Messianics suggest that the Sinai covenant was a temporary extension of the covenant with Abraham to be replaced by the New Covenant.

ReChoired · Jul 1, 2021

Curtis said:
That’s no contradiction at all.

The law was given because sin was in the world between Adam and Moses, but no one knew what sin was, because there was no law - the law that was added was 430 years after Abraham, when it was given to Moses. ...

"no one knew what sin was"???

Gen_39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

ReChoired · Jul 1, 2021

Curtis said:
...

When you quote the whole passage, instead of part of it for a proof text, it becomes undeniable that the law given because of transgression was 430 years after the Abrahamic covenant was given TO Abraham.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

The law was given 430 years after what event? After THE PROMISES MADE TO ABRAHAM, verse 16.

That’s just too clear as to its meaning.

Already showed you. The "law" referred to is not the Ten Commandments. It is that which is of the "book of the law", in the very context of Galatians 3:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The context is "the book of the law" and the "works of" that "law". The context is the "curse" written in the "book of the law". Nowhere in the Ten Commandments is any curse. They are all perfect promises of God to usward (and especially in the New/Everlasting Covenant). Nowhere in the Ten Commandments is it "written", "Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them", or "The Just shall live by faith", or "The man that doeth them shall live in them.", or "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree".

The "book of the law" came 430 years after (Abraham, who never had the "book of the law", but did obey the (Ten) Commandments of God), at Mt. Sinai.

ReChoired · Jul 1, 2021

Curtis said:
Your error is in citing Lot and Abraham having some kind of law and commands, and equate that with proof they already had the law given to Moses, including the Decalogue.

That is a strawman of the position I provided. I never stated that Abraham had "the law given to Moses" which was separate (even in your own statement) from the "Decalogue". I stated that Abraham knew the spiritual Ten Commandments of God. Abraham also knew tithe, and the clean/unclean division, as well as blood sacrifice. Yet he did not have everything that was given to Moses. Please do not misrepresent what I have clearly stated.

ReChoired · Jul 1, 2021

Curtis said:
Everyone who lived after Noah had the Noahic covenant laws, laws given by God - not the 613 laws given to Moses ...

There is no such thing as 613 laws. That is based upon kabbalisitic talmudistic rabbinicism. Here is that evidence:
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Ok. I know how some like ordered lists, so hear goes:

[1.] To begin with, there is not a single place in all the TaNaKh, neither the portion thereof, the Torah (Gen-Deut) where God, Moses, Joshua, or any person of heaven above, or on this earth below, state on biblical record that there are exactly '613' 'mitzvot'. For the New Testament minded (Matt-Rev), the same applies also. Again, absent. Jesus, as a final example (for the New Testament minded), did not once enumerate the 'mitzvot' of the Torah for us in such fashion, to '613' or any other such number.

[2.] The enumeration of '613' is a Rabbincal, yea even after a Talmudical, fashioning or calculation or enumeration. No one has to take my word for this, it is said as much on the very site so kindly provided to us (it has been provided so many times, I lost count):

"... Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages. ..." - Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

As a side note:

The RaMBaM (whom I have read on numerous occasions, with others, such as RaMBaN, Pirke, etc) is actually, Ra(bbi) M(oses) Ba(ni) M(aimon), aka Maimonides, of the 12th cent Morocco & Egypt (during the Almoravid (Muslim) empire, and died under the Ayyubid sultanate) - Link

[3.] RaMBaM's listing isn't the only one. There are other listings, by other Rabbis, all several thousand years removed from Moses or Joshua, and the website provided demonstrates the accuracy of this point.

[4.] RaMBaM's order of listing isn't the only one. There are other orderings, by other Rabbis and persons non-Rabbi (scholars, etc), and again, the very website provided, demonstrates this by stating it out as matters of fact, and in personal ordered listing preferred instead to RaMBaM's (example 2 orders at least on the face of it).

[5.] RaMBaM's explanation for the listing and ordering thereof is not the only one. There are explanations, just as there are other listings and orderings by other Rabbis, etc. (generally, not exclusively, following after RaMBaM, (thus post 12th cent), possible just more easily accessible)

[6.] The '613' number is for some calculated on Gematraic principles, with differing reasons or starting points by differing Rabbis, and for this reason, some disagree that it should be said number, for instance:

"... I disagree there are 613 Mitzvot because the explanation for the number is based on gematria, however the gematria of the Torah is not Standard ( Long preview of 'The Genesis Wheel: & other hermeneutical essays'. ). Instead of the letters Shin and Tav having the value of 300 and 400, they are valued at 3 and 4, and using this most secret gematria the number of Mitzvot would be 217 (31 × 7). However 613 is discovered with this gematria in the opening verses of Genesis so it is still a very significant gematria number.

We first get the idea of 613 mitzvot from Rabbi Simlai:

From Makkot 24a:

"דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם אמר רב המנונא מאי קרא (דברים לג, ד) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה תורה בגימטריא שית מאה וחד סרי הוי אנכי ולא יהיה לך מפי הגבורה שמענום

§ Rabbi Simlai taught: There were 613 mitzvot stated to Moses in the Torah, consisting of 365 prohibitions corresponding to the number of days in the solar year, and 248 positive mitzvot corresponding to the number of a person’s limbs. Rav Hamnuna said: What is the verse that alludes to this? It is written: “Moses commanded to us the Torah, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 34:4). The word Torah, in terms of its numerical value [gimatriyya], is 611, the number of mitzvot that were received and taught by Moses our teacher. In addition, there are two mitzvot: “I am the Lord your God” and: “You shall have no other gods” (Exodus 20:2, 3), the first two of the Ten Commandments, that we heard from the mouth of the Almighty, for a total of 613."[1]

However the word תורה is valued at 215; Tav:4 + Vav:6 + Resh:200 + Heh:5 = 215. So if we add the two for the first two commandments the people heard at Sinai: 215 + 2 = 217.

Regarding the number of צִיצִית which is supposed to equal the number of Mitzvot:

Rashi "וזכרתם את כל מצות ה'. שֶׁמִּנְיַן גִּימַטְרִיָּא שֶׁל צִיצִית שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת, וּשְׁמוֹנָה חוּטִין וַחֲמִשָּׁה קְשָׁרִים הֲרֵי תרי"ג (תנחומא): You will remember all of Adonoy’s commandments. As the numerical value of צִיצִית is 600, and the eight threads and five knots equal 613."[2]

צִיצִית = 204

plus 8 threads and 5 knots = 217.

You can check the sums on this gematria calculator which uses the correct gematria of the Torah; Shematria

Vilna Gaon in Orot Hagra also disagreed that 613 was the correct number, saying;

It definitely cannot be said that only 613, and no more, come under the category of mitzvot. For if so, there are only three mitzvot from Bereishit until Bo, and many portions of the Torah contain no mitzvot. That is not plausible… The mitzvot are thus multitudinous beyond enumeration… ..." - https://www.reddit.com/r/Gematria/comments/d0jzef/are_there_really_613_mitzvot/

ReChoired · Jul 1, 2021

Curtis said:
Everyone who lived after Noah had the Noahic covenant laws, laws given by God - not the 613 laws given to Moses ...

There is no such thing as 613 laws. That is based upon kabbalisitic talmudistic rabbinicism. Here is that evidence:

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

[7.] Moses specifically said by inspiration of God, that what God spoke and wrote at Mt. Sinai with His own voice and finger from Heaven were "the ten commandments". God came down upon Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty, with the whole mountain covered in the fire of the presence of the Holy Angels of God, so that none but those whom God called up were able to come near.

Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu_10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

In each place the Hebrew word "[1697] dabar" is used, as the Ten Commandments are not merely laws or commands, but individual promises of God each that He would perform in those who would walk in His covenant. More on that later as needful.

[8.] The "ten commandments" that God spake in Person to all the people without the mediator Moses, were a complete Law, nothing further being added unto them, except later as to be written in a scroll/book through a mediator (Moses):

Deu_5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

[9.] The "ten commandments" were written by God's own finger originally on sapphire stone and which second set was placed into the "pattern" Ark of the Covenant in the earthly tabernacle (Exodus 25:16,21).

[10.] The other precepts, statutes, laws, commands, ordinances, etc were all given by God through the mediator Moses, to be written by Moses' hand, and placed not inside of the Ark, but to be placed in the side of the Ark:

Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

So, while important, God makes distinction, by several means. The many other things which God gave fall under the umbrella of the Ten Commandments:

Psa_119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

and as such '613' probably wouldn't even come close to the depth of God's Ten Commandments, which are the expansion of His perfect character of Love, which itself is expressed in the greatest (Deuteronomy 6:5) and second greatest commandments (Leviticus 19:17-18) (both of whose contexts are the Ten Commandments, see Deut. 5, etc).

[11.] The '613' enumeration only considers material within the texts of the Torah (Gen-Deut), and not any other material from the Nevi'im or Ketuvim, as if God somehow stopped talking and giving commands through men, priests or prophets or kings, see Isaiah 8:20 (Law and Testimony)

[12.] Even from a basic search of scripture, the Torah itself makes differences between words:

Gen 26:5 KJB Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen 26:5 KJB Str. BecauseH6118 thatH834 AbrahamH85 obeyedH8085 my voice,H6963 and keptH8104 my charge,H4931 my commandments,H4687 my statutes,H2708 and my laws.H8451

Gen 26:5 HOT עקב אשׁר־שׁמע אברהם בקלי וישׁמר משׁמרתי מצותי חקותי ותורתי׃

Gen 26:5 HOT Str. עקבH6118 אשׁרH834 שׁמעH8085 אברהםH85 בקליH6963 וישׁמרH8104 משׁמרתיH4931 מצותיH4687 חקותיH2708 ותורתי׃H8451 (apologies for how this posts, not much can be done about that, I used highligher to mark the beginning and ending, so while the sentence reads left to right, each individual word correctly reads right to left)

Gen 26:5 HOT Translit. ëqev ásher-shäma av'rähäm B'qoliy waYish'mor mish'mar'Tiy mitz'wotay chuQôtay w'tôrotäy

Notice the distinction made between H4687 (mitzvot) and H8451 (torah), which is again found in Exodus 16:28,

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

This should suffice for now.

Curtis said:
... that included the Decalogue.

Again, you clearly make a distinction between the two things. The Decalogue and the other laws. This proves my point.

ReChoired · Jul 1, 2021

Curtis said:
[Noahic laws (so called)]

They are:

1.Do not deny God.
2.Do not blaspheme God.
3.Do not murder.
4.Do not engage in incestuous, adulterous or other immoral sexual relationships.
5.Do not steal.
6.Do not eat of a live animal.
7.Establish courts/legal system to ensure law and obedience.

In 'The Noahide Laws,' Jeffrey Spitzer offers us this further information:

The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments: [to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8). Source:The Noahide Laws | My Jewish Learning

They did NOT have the law of Moses or the ten commands.

So, you are going to reference some guy who references the Babylonian Talmud, based in anti-Christian (I have studied the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud's, and it blasphemes Christ Jesus all over the place) Rabbinic Kabbalism???

There is no such thing in scripture.

As I have said, I live according to scripture, you live according to the word and doctrines of fallible (and even Christ rejecting) men. The Babylonian Talmud has a curse:

"Quote 1
A Sage said: "May the curse of heaven fall upon those who calculate the date of the advent of the Messiah, and thus create political and social unrest among the people." Sanhedrin, 97b.

Louis Newman and Samuel Spitz, The Talmudic anthology: tales and teachings of the rabbis (Behrman House, 1945): 277. ISBN 0874413036, 9780874413038

Read this quote online

Quote 2
What is meant by 'but at the end it shall speak [we-yafeah] and not lie?' — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be18 the bones of those who calculate the end.19 For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you.20 But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it.21 But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him.

Footnotes to the above:

18 [H] The verse is rendered, 'he will blast him who calculated the end.'
19 I.e., Messiah’s advent.
20 Isa. XXX, 18.
21 I.e., because we are not yet worthy of it.
22 Ibid.

"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online

Quote 3
Rabbis after the time of Christ have pronounced a curse on anyone who would attempt to calculate the dates of this chapter. - Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino ed., p. 659. Read this quote online

Quote 4
6. Furthermore, this passage deals primarily with Jesus — not with some “future Fuehrer,” to use Hal Lindsey’s term for the Antichrist. In fact, the prophecy points so unmistakably to the time of the MESSIAH’S COMING, and so directly foretold HIS DEATH, that in later centuries Jewish rabbis who did not accept Jesus DISCOURAGED its study and finally pronounced a CURSE on all who attempt to compute the time elements! 31

Footnote to the above:

31 See Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino edition, p. 659.

NOTE: All the capitalizations in the above quote are original with the author, and are reproduced for the sake of accuracy.

Howard A. Peth, 7 Mysteries Solved: 7 Issues that Touch the Heart of Mankind Second edition, Revised (California: Hart Books, 2002).

Quote 5
HAS MESSIAH COME?
by Avram Yehoshua

A most amazing thing occurs in the ninth chapter of Daniel: we’re told when Messiah would come. But instead of explaining it to us, our Rabbis curse anyone wanting to find it out: ‘Rabbi Samuel b. Nachmani said in the name (of) Rabbi Jonathan: ‘Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end.’ (1) Some of our Rabbis, in a further attempt to keep us from Daniel, even state that Daniel was wrong. Alfred Edersheim, a Talmudic scholar who would come to know Messiah said, ‘later Rabbinism, which, naturally enough, could not find its way through the Messianic prophecies of the book, declared that even Daniel was mistaken’ (2) (emphasis added).
Footnotes to the above:

1 Sanford R. Howard, L’Chayim: Finding The Light of Shalom (Thorsby, AL: Sabbath House, Inc., 1999), p. 209. Sanhedrin 97b, vol. 2, p. 659, Soncino Press. Editorial footnote #6 says, ‘i.e., Messiah’s advent.’
2 Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2000), p. 957. Bereshith Rabba 98 (a midrash or commentary on Genesis). Edersheim lived from 1825 to 1889 C.E.

Read this quote online

Quote 6

Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds.

"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online.

Jesus and the The Talmud
In Judaism, the Talmud is called the "most holy." It is the sourcebook for Jews.

On the eve of Passover, Jesus was hanged. For 40 days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned, because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retored; Do you suppose has was one for whom a defense could be amde? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government. (Sanhedrin 43a)

The scholars know that when you calculate the time of the Messiah, using Daniel 9 as the prophetic template, you come to one Messiah: Jesus Christ. But they rejected Him. The stone that was rejected turned out to be the capstone, the corner stone, the foundation. No other foundation can we have than that which is Christ Jesus, the Bible says. Israel rejected this Messiah that their own scriptures point to, and say, "Blasted be the ones if you try and calculate why he didn't come." This is Jewish Talmudic theology regarding the absence of the timely Messiah.

The Soncino edition of the Talmud can be purchased on the web here, but please note that it is very expensive." - Rabbinic Curse

Why then trust it as a reputable source on things pertaining to the worship of God (whom Jesus is)?

charity · Jul 2, 2021

@ReChoired (replies #1,2,4,6,7,10-12,16-18. 17-44, 49-54)
@Robert Gwin (replies #3,5,8,9,13-15, 20-23, 39)
@Ziggy (reply 19)
@Mungo (replies #24,25,48)
@Curtis (replies #26,45-47)

Hello there,

Forgive me if I do not engage with anyone directly: for you have been engaged in discussion concerning this subject from several different angles, I can only offer what I know, little as it is:-

Covenants made by God:-
- With Noah, his seed, and every living creature - (Genesis 6:18; Genesis 9:8-17)
The token (or sign) given is the rainbow.
It is an 'everlasting' covenant (Genesis 9:16): and is 'unconditional'.

- With Abram and his seed concerning the land - (Genesis 15:18- 21 & chapter)
The token being Genesis 15:8-17.
This is an 'unconditional' covenant, a covenant of promise, made by God to Abram, while Abram slept.

- With Abraham and his seed through Isaac - (Genesis 17:1-14 [Exodus 2:24; 6:2-8]; Genesis 17:19 & 21)
The token being circumcision (Genesis 17:11).
It is an 'everlasting' covenant (Genesis 17:7& 19), in which God promises to be their God (Genesis 17:7-8).

- God's covenant made with Israel at Mount Sinai (Exodus 19 - [v.24; 34:7] - 34:35 )
The token (or sign) being the observance of the Sabbath day. (Exodus 31:16-17)
This is a conditional covenant. Between God and Israel.

* There are other covenants and promises made and recorded in Scripture of course, but I haven't got time to consider them here.

* Israel are associated with a covenant, both old and new.
* Believing Gentiles during the Acts were blessed with faithful Abraham, but by nature, and in the flesh, the Gentiles were strangers from the covenant of promise: and in the teaching of the Prison Epistles, (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus) written following the departure of Israel into the darkness of unbelief at the end of the Acts period, concerning the Church which is Christ's Body, no covenant of any description is known.
* Titus 1:2 says that the eternal life was 'promised before the world began'. 2 Timothy 1:19 says that the believer was called according to the Lord's own purpose and grace 'which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'. Ephesians 1:4 says that such were 'chosen in Him before the foundation of the world'. Here are covenants, agreements, promises, but they were not made with or to us, they were all made in and with Christ. So, we see in 2 Corinthians 3 & 4 that everything turns on two mediators - Moses and Christ.

* How thankful should we not be, to think that so far as the Church of the one Body is concerned there are no contractual agreements, no covenants, no testaments, that involve the believer, he finds all in His completeness in Christ.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

DPMartin · Jul 2, 2021

ReChoired said:
COVENANTS

This thread is specifically about "covenants" (and/or "testaments") in scripture, and how they affect salvation or the plan of redemption, who they are made with and by whom. There is a lot of confusion in "Christian" circles about the subject of covenants, and this thread is to consider what scripture says in some detail that Christians, the world over, may understand God's word together.

PLEASE NOTE (READ): Before jumping into this thread and getting something off of your mind, I would ask that all who desire to participate herein, please just take some time to pray each instance you enter this thread and also when replying/responding to/in this thread. Pray for the guidance of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and His indwelling, along with the fruit that comes. Ask for the mind of Christ Jesus. Then after doing so, and entering, please take some prayerful time to consider each response and texts and evidences that are given by each participant. Do not rush to answer. Consider carefully all that is given, point by point.

i realize i'm late to the party here but;

if it hasn't been mentioned, covenants are agreements or contracts marriages treaties. you do this, i'll do that or, we agree to do the same. the Lord called His ten commandments a covenant so its an agreement.

therefore, this is where "morals" come from. the agreement. the morals are the specifics in the agreement. but it should also be understood if one isn't a participant in the agreement those rules don't apply nor is that person bound to that agreement.

if you are a US citizen then the laws in Russia don't apply to you. but if you are in the country of Russia then by virtue of agreeing to be in that country's territory, you agree to their law until you leave. so if you break their law (set of morals) then they can hold it against you.

if you walk in a store, its assumed that you agree to the law that you will pay for an item for sale before you leave the premises. and this is done all over the world without any acknowledgment of the ten commandments in their country.

so back to the Lord God, if you notice all His relationships with man is through an agreement. the commandment given after He put the man in the garden is a covenant. and all the sons of man experience the result of that outcome. same with Noah, God established a covenant with Noah and all the sons of Noah are seen by God through that agreement. (note that the first place Grace is mentioned in the bible is with Noah)

same with Abraham all the children of Israel are seen through the covenant or covenants with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

and with the children of Israel the Lord their God establish a covenant via the hand of Moses known as the Torah. actually a law between nation of people and their God. God agrees to do this, if they do that. the Lord God being Faithful keeps that agreement even unto today with the children of Israel.

Jesus being the everlasting covenant is between man and God is He not? but the truth is all of creation knows their Creator through God's Word that all things made were made through.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

and all the covenants in the case of God and man have been God's Word.

ReChoired · Jul 2, 2021

charity said:
@ReChoired (replies #1,2,4,6,7,10-12,16-18. 17-44, 49-54)
...

Hello there,

Forgive me if I do not engage with anyone directly ...

* Israel are associated with a covenant, both old and new.
* Believing Gentiles during the Acts were blessed with faithful Abraham, but by nature, and in the flesh, the Gentiles were strangers from the covenant of promise: and in the teaching of the Prison Epistles, (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus) written following the departure of Israel into the darkness of unbelief at the end of the Acts period, concerning the Church which is Christ's Body, no covenant of any description is known.
* Titus 1:2 says that the eternal life was 'promised before the world began'. 2 Timothy 1:19 says that the believer was called according to the Lord's own purpose and grace 'which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'. Ephesians 1:4 says that such were 'chosen in Him before the foundation of the world'. Here are covenants, agreements, promises, but they were not made with or to us, they were all made in and with Christ. So, we see in 2 Corinthians 3 & 4 that everything turns on two mediators - Moses and Christ.

* How thankful should we not be, to think that so far as the Church of the one Body is concerned there are no contractual agreements, no covenants, no testaments, that involve the believer, he finds all in His completeness in Christ.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi charity (Chris). You ought to "engage". It will show whether what you believe/practice is correct or needs to be adjusted in the light of God's word (KJB).

Consider with me please, Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16, 21:16-17; Isaiah 56:2-7:

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Jesus is our Righteousness, even the "righteousness" of the Father "revealed".

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2Pe_1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jesus is our Salvation, even the "salvation" "sent" of the Father to usward.

1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Mat_1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus just quoted Isaiah 56:8, and applied it to Himself, as the fulfillment, who gathers those of the Jews (this fold), and of the Gentiles (other sheep), to make of twain one fold, in one new man, himself. Thus the entire context of Isaiah 56:1-8 is the Everlasting and New Covenant/Testament.

Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Jesus further confirms the two types of sheep in John 21, the Jews, first, and the Gentiles after.

Now, consider the sandwich of Isaiah 56:1,8, and the "substance" in between:

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Notice, Jesus is central, and the "covenant" spoken of is eternal. The "sabbath" of God, the holy 7th day, (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Mark 2:27; Hebrews 4:9; Isaiah 58:13; Revelation 1:10; etc) is to be kept by both Jew and Gentile (sons of the stranger) who "join themselves" to God, by this everlasting and eternal "covenant", who is Christ Jesus, for whom the Sabbath was made for (Colossians 1:16).

As for 2 Corinthians 3:

There are two glories spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] the glory of the law of God

[2] the glory of Moses face.

The context and the koine Greek endings demonstrate that the 2nd glory was "done away" with.

Look:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

There are several things in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] The spiritual Law of God, the Ten Commandments (doesn't change, stays, "remaineth")

[2] ministration (changes), how the Law is administered

[3] glories (differing glories)

The glory of the Law as seen in Moses face goes away

the glory of the Law in the life and face of Jesus Christ remaineth and is more glorious.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[4] Mediator (differing mediators)

Moses ('old covenant'; Exodus 19:8)

Jesus (eternal covenant; Malachi 2:5; Jeremiah 31; Hebrews 8; etc)

[5] location (differing locations)

tables of stone

tables of the fleshy heart (the brain is two hemispheres, two tables)

[6] Holy Ghost (doesn't change)

The Law of God brings death, why?

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom_7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

But it was ordained to Life, not death.

Through the Holy Ghost, who writes the "my (God's) law" upon the heart, the Law is able to be fulfilled in the life:

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Curtis · Jul 2, 2021

ReChoired said:
So, you are going to reference some guy who references the Babylonian Talmud, based in anti-Christian (I have studied the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud's, and it blasphemes Christ Jesus all over the place) Rabbinic Kabbalism???

There is no such thing in scripture.

As I have said, I live according to scripture, you live according to the word and doctrines of fallible (and even Christ rejecting) men. The Babylonian Talmud has a curse:

"Quote 1
A Sage said: "May the curse of heaven fall upon those who calculate the date of the advent of the Messiah, and thus create political and social unrest among the people." Sanhedrin, 97b.

Louis Newman and Samuel Spitz, The Talmudic anthology: tales and teachings of the rabbis (Behrman House, 1945): 277. ISBN 0874413036, 9780874413038

Read this quote online

Quote 2
What is meant by 'but at the end it shall speak [we-yafeah] and not lie?' — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be18 the bones of those who calculate the end.19 For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you.20 But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it.21 But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him.

Footnotes to the above:

18 [H] The verse is rendered, 'he will blast him who calculated the end.'
19 I.e., Messiah’s advent.
20 Isa. XXX, 18.
21 I.e., because we are not yet worthy of it.
22 Ibid.

"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online

Quote 3
Rabbis after the time of Christ have pronounced a curse on anyone who would attempt to calculate the dates of this chapter. - Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino ed., p. 659. Read this quote online

Quote 4
6. Furthermore, this passage deals primarily with Jesus — not with some “future Fuehrer,” to use Hal Lindsey’s term for the Antichrist. In fact, the prophecy points so unmistakably to the time of the MESSIAH’S COMING, and so directly foretold HIS DEATH, that in later centuries Jewish rabbis who did not accept Jesus DISCOURAGED its study and finally pronounced a CURSE on all who attempt to compute the time elements! 31

Footnote to the above:

31 See Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino edition, p. 659.

NOTE: All the capitalizations in the above quote are original with the author, and are reproduced for the sake of accuracy.

Howard A. Peth, 7 Mysteries Solved: 7 Issues that Touch the Heart of Mankind Second edition, Revised (California: Hart Books, 2002).

Quote 5
HAS MESSIAH COME?
by Avram Yehoshua

A most amazing thing occurs in the ninth chapter of Daniel: we’re told when Messiah would come. But instead of explaining it to us, our Rabbis curse anyone wanting to find it out: ‘Rabbi Samuel b. Nachmani said in the name (of) Rabbi Jonathan: ‘Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end.’ (1) Some of our Rabbis, in a further attempt to keep us from Daniel, even state that Daniel was wrong. Alfred Edersheim, a Talmudic scholar who would come to know Messiah said, ‘later Rabbinism, which, naturally enough, could not find its way through the Messianic prophecies of the book, declared that even Daniel was mistaken’ (2) (emphasis added).
Footnotes to the above:

1 Sanford R. Howard, L’Chayim: Finding The Light of Shalom (Thorsby, AL: Sabbath House, Inc., 1999), p. 209. Sanhedrin 97b, vol. 2, p. 659, Soncino Press. Editorial footnote #6 says, ‘i.e., Messiah’s advent.’
2 Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2000), p. 957. Bereshith Rabba 98 (a midrash or commentary on Genesis). Edersheim lived from 1825 to 1889 C.E.

Read this quote online

Quote 6

Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds.

"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online.

Jesus and the The Talmud
In Judaism, the Talmud is called the "most holy." It is the sourcebook for Jews.

On the eve of Passover, Jesus was hanged. For 40 days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned, because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retored; Do you suppose has was one for whom a defense could be amde? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government. (Sanhedrin 43a)

The scholars know that when you calculate the time of the Messiah, using Daniel 9 as the prophetic template, you come to one Messiah: Jesus Christ. But they rejected Him. The stone that was rejected turned out to be the capstone, the corner stone, the foundation. No other foundation can we have than that which is Christ Jesus, the Bible says. Israel rejected this Messiah that their own scriptures point to, and say, "Blasted be the ones if you try and calculate why he didn't come." This is Jewish Talmudic theology regarding the absence of the timely Messiah.

The Soncino edition of the Talmud can be purchased on the web here, but please note that it is very expensive." - Rabbinic Curse

Why then trust it as a reputable source on things pertaining to the worship of God (whom Jesus is)?

There are other sources that reference the noahide laws.

Robert Gwin · Jul 3, 2021

ReChoired said:
The AV1611 was the King James Holy Bible (KJB), or AV (Authorized Version).

Ecc_8:4 Where the word of a king is, there is power [Authority]: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?

The whole 'KJV' came about later to lessen its importance and significance when in company of other so called modern English translations.

Yes, Psalms 110 in KJB says,

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psa 110:1 לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה לאדני שׁב לימיני עד־אשׁית איביך הדם לרגליך׃

The NT says, in 3 places, by two authors (Matthew & Luke), both inspired of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and they did not use the koine Greek for the name of God "IEOVAH", but rather simply used the koine Greek "κυριος τω κυριω" to translate the OT text (and they were Jews, inspired of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and Christians), which is really the Father speaking to the Son:

Mat_22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Mat 22:44 ειπεν ο κυριος τω κυριω μου καθου εκ δεξιων μου εως αν θω τους εχθρους σου υποποδιον των ποδων σου

Luk_20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Luk 20:42 και αυτος δαβιδ λεγει εν βιβλω ψαλμων ειπεν ο κυριος τω κυριω μου καθου εκ δεξιων μου

Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:34 ου γαρ δαβιδ ανεβη εις τους ουρανους λεγει δε αυτος ειπεν ο κυριος τω κυριω μου καθου εκ δεξιων μου

This was why I asked the several questions that I did. Here they are again:

In the NT koine Greek that underlies the KJB, is there any place in which one Apostle or NT writer wrote in koine Greek the name "IEOVAH", or did every single one of the NT writers, in the original language, simply use "kurios" (kyrios), etc., when citing an OT passage with God's name in it or speaking about JEHOVAH specifically?

Question: If the NT writers, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost (you believe the NT is inspired of God, yes?), wrote in koine Greek a form of the word for 'Lord', such as the word "κυριε" (Hebrews 1:10 GNT TR) when translating from the Hebrew "יהוה" (Psalms 102:12), why cannot the KJB translators do the same when going from Hebrew to English and just use "Lord"?

Question: If the OT writers, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost (you believe the OT is inspired of God, yes?), wrote in Hebrew (some Syriack) a form of the word for 'Lord', such as the word "אדני" (adonai) (Psalms 16:2, etc) when referring to "יהוה" (Psalms 16:2, etc), or where they were referring to another place in the OT, or restating a section of the OT, and simply used "אדני" (adonai) where was "יהוה" in a previous place, why cannot the KJB translators do the same when going from Hebrew to English and use "Lord" or "LORD"?

It looks like you got my point sir

Robert Gwin · Jul 3, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
We believe that Jehovah personally wrote the original tablets which Moses destroyed. Moses was commanded by God to restore them, so the replacements were written by Moses. We believe the words of the Bible are Gods. Inspired into the men who served as penmen to the recorded word.

As far as I know, which is little, the only faith that observes the Sabbath to a degree is the 7th day adventists, however they are hypocritical in doing so. I know a few of them that worked 2nd shift. I knew one that would not work on Saturday, but did not see the need to not work after dusk on Friday.

Post Christian Jehovah's witnesses do not observe the sabbath based on Paul's writings, which we believe are God's words at: (Colossians 2:16) 16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath.

I personally do not know anyone who observes the Sabbath, do you Re?

I am very sorry sir, you are very well correct, Moses delivered new blank tablets for Jehovah to rewrite the commandments. My error! Thanks for correcting me.

COVENANTS

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads