Postrib vs Dispy.

farouk · Jul 8, 2021

1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God...

Randy Kluth · Jul 8, 2021

farouk said:
1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God...

Israel is not being defined in 1 Cor 10.32 as the International Church, but she is certainly being used as a *model* to instruct other nations in the NT period.

Keraz · Jul 8, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I reject the idea of Christian nations being "Israel." That's a contradiction to me. Israel is only one of many nations. Therefore, all nations cannot be "Israel."

Christians are scattered among the nations; including Israel.
Many prophesies tell us how the Lord will gather them into all of the holy Land, where they will become the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
The Nation formed in one day, as described in Isaiah 66:7-14 & 18b-21

You discard plainly stated scripture to reject these and many other prophesies.
Thinking that the current Jewish State of Israel is still the Chosen people of God, also ignores just about the entire New Testament.

GISMYS_7 · Jul 8, 2021

Antisemitism = a very ugly evil thing!!!

n2thelight · Jul 8, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
Yea, that's a common view, which I don't hold to. Judah was only the predominant tribe in which proper worship under the Law was taking place. So all tribes, over time, joined with Judah in proper worship under the Law. Israel came to be identified as "Jews," only because it was a reconstitution in the southern kingdom of Judah, and not because it consisted only of those from the tribe of Judah.

I reject the idea of Christian nations being "Israel." That's a contradiction to me. Israel is only one of many nations. Therefore, all nations cannot be "Israel."

All one has to do is look at the promises to Abraham .You reject that ,why? I'm not understanding your rejection of Christian nations being Israel, Not all nations, Iran , China Russia just to name a few ,can't be.

My question to you is where are the other 10 tribes ,dang sure ain't in that nation state of Israel

Where and who are the company of nations ?

Randy Kluth · Jul 8, 2021

Keraz said:
Christians are scattered among the nations; including Israel.
Many prophesies tell us how the Lord will gather them into all of the holy Land, where they will become the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
The Nation formed in one day, as described in Isaiah 66:7-14 & 18b-21

You discard plainly stated scripture to reject these and many other prophesies.
Thinking that the current Jewish State of Israel is still the Chosen people of God, also ignores just about the entire New Testament.

On the contrary, you retain promises made specifically for Israel and apply them to the Church. The land of Israel belongs to Israel. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's property.

Truth7t7 · Jul 8, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I'm Postrib and also believe in the future salvation of national Israel. I think it's important to state this because many Postribs reject Israel in prophecy altogether, or reinterpret it to apply to the international Church.

Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.

But these things are obviously tied together. God said that without spirituality and without obedience, a nation will not be saved. It will ultimately perish or suffer significant judgment.

Many get confused about this because they think that saving a society is not important in relation to saving an individual. Actually, both are important to God--both nations and individuals. The nation protects the individual, and thus provides a healthy spiritual climate for the individual if the nation is itself generally spiritual, or tolerant of spirituality.

The problem with Postribs who deny the place of national Israel in prophecy is that God did indeed promise this to Abraham. And God doesn't break His promises. Though the Early Church gave up hope in Israel's future salvation because Israel didn't repent, this does not mean that after many generations God cannot begin again with Israel, and ultimately refine her through the fires of His judgment.

So I do believe in Israel's future salvation, and also in the salvation of other nations--primarily Christian nations. Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.

So where in the Bible do we see the salvation of Christian nations? We don't, because when the Bible was written Christian nations did not yet exist. And yet God promised them to Abraham. He was promised he would become father of a multitude of nations.

The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.

That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.

So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand not in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.

2/3 of Jews will be cut off and die?

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Keraz · Jul 8, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
The land of Israel belongs to Israel.

Sure it does. To the true faithful Christian Israelites of God. The new owners, as Jeremiah 8:10 tells us. Jeremiah 23:8, Romans 9:24-26...Christians in the very place....
Note; the indictment against the Jews in Jeremiah 8:1-12...therefore they will fall with a great crash, brought down on the Lord's Day of reckoning.

Randy Kluth · Jul 9, 2021

Keraz said:
Sure it does. To the true faithful Christian Israelites of God. The new owners, as Jeremiah 8:10 tells us. Jeremiah 23:8, Romans 9:24-26...Christians in the very place....
Note; the indictment against the Jews in Jeremiah 8:1-12...therefore they will fall with a great crash, brought down on the Lord's Day of reckoning.

I've told you before, and I'll tell you again. The nations include Israel, but the nations are not "Israel." The land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People, who will one day become a Christian people with a Christian constitution.

But I do believe that in the end we will all be gathered to the land in and around Israel, just as the Israelites used to have to gather to Jerusalem 3 x per year. Only when the international Church gathers to the Middle East, the New Jerusalem will be enormous, and reach up higher than satellites.

It will encompass the entire Middle East. My thought is that the Church will gather to the Middle East at times, and at other times be elsewhere on the planet. But who knows?

Keraz · Jul 9, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

But if you cared to look at many other prophesies, you would see that the third part that will pass thru fire, is also decimated. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27
Only a remnant of Messianic Jews will survive, to join with their Christian brethren, back into all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5
The remaining Jews will be so ashamed, they will never open their mouths again. Ezekiel 16:63

Keraz · Jul 9, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
It will encompass the entire Middle East. My thought is that the Church will gather to the Middle East at times, and at other times be elsewhere on the planet. But who knows?

Daniel 7:25 and John in Revelation 13:7, knew where God's holy people, the faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, will be in the end times.

There are over 20 prophesies that detail the demise of Jewish Israel. Why do you ignore them?

Randy Kluth · Jul 9, 2021

Keraz said:
Daniel 7:25 and John in Revelation 13:7, knew where God's holy people, the faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, will be in the end times.

There are over 20 prophesies that detail the demise of Jewish Israel. Why do you ignore them?

The demise of Jewish Israel is the story of their failure as a nation of God, as well as the story of all human failure under the Law. The Law condemns all men, and renders them ineligible for eternal life.

However, Israel's failure as a nation did not mean failure for individuals who embrace Christ for their atonement. A remnant of Jews have become Christian, giving rise to the hope of a future national restoration of the Jewish people.

God doesn't just restore people from all ethnicities--He restores nations, as well. God cares just as much about our social environment as He does about those who inhabit them. He also cares about the planet that He created for us to live on.

I believe God's promise to Israel is irrevocable. But I also believe that before Israel is restored to being a nation of God, there will indeed be a serious "demise" of the Jewish People. Only a remnant of Israel will survive. But that remnant will once again become a full nation, after Christ's return.

GISMYS_7 · Jul 9, 2021

Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Romans 11:25-28 I do not want you to be ""ignorant ""of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way ""all Israel will be saved"". As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Ronald Nolette · Jul 9, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.

That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.

So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand not in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.

First off, You are free to accept whatever time frame for the rapture you wish, but when the trumpet sounds before the antichrist signs the treaty with Israel, you will go with us pre-tribbers!

God has no "Christian nations". America was founded on christian principles, but God made no covenant with America. Only Israel as a nation has an everlasting covenant with god. More later.

GISMYS_7 · Jul 9, 2021

Those that reject the rapture are left behind Jesus tells us who He will return for==
Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and ""unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time"" without sin unto salvation.

Keraz · Jul 9, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I believe God's promise to Israel is irrevocable. But I also believe that before Israel is restored to being a nation of God, there will indeed be a serious "demise" of the Jewish People. Only a remnant of Israel will survive. But that remnant will once again become a full nation, after Christ's return.

Your confusion stems from believing that a bunch of people who had the money* and motivation* to establish a new nation in the Middle East, are the true and only Israel.
Money- the Rothschilds
Motivation - Communistic principals. Plus, the Holocaust helped, as the survivors wanted a safe haven.

That secular nation comprising of people who may or may not have a claim of descent from Judah, or any other of the 12 tribes, they have no proofs and in fact: the historical record shows mostly they do not, does seem to have been supported by spiritual forces. Keep in mind; there are two kinds of spiritual forces and anyway God uses people to achieve His own purposes.

I see God's Purpose in allowing a false Israel to be established in the holy Land, as His means of diverting attention from His main aim. Which is to form a righteous group of peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language, People who have freely chosen to believe in His Son, whom God sent to redeem them and to teach them to Way of life.

They are the holy nation of the Christian peoples and it is the vast multitude of them, the true Israelites of God, who John sees gathered in Jerusalem, soon after the Lord has cleared, cleansed and regenerated all of the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 35:1-10, Revelation 7:9

Randy Kluth · Jul 9, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
First off, You are free to accept whatever time frame for the rapture you wish, but when the trumpet sounds before the antichrist signs the treaty with Israel, you will go with us pre-tribbers!

God has no "Christian nations". America was founded on christian principles, but God made no covenant with America. Only Israel as a nation has an everlasting covenant with god. More later.

If you deny there are no "Christian nations" you must be a "flat-earther?" You will find "Christian nations" in the encyclopedia of your choice. Denying that is the equivalent of denying you exist.

I do appreciate that you think I will go up in the Pretrib Rapture, even though I'm not expecting it. We are brothers. But don't worry--it's not going to happen in my book.

Randy Kluth · Jul 9, 2021

Keraz said:
Your confusion stems from believing that a bunch of people who had the money* and motivation* to establish a new nation in the Middle East, are the true and only Israel.
Money- the Rothschilds
Motivation - Communistic principals. Plus, the Holocaust helped, as the survivors wanted a safe haven.

That secular nation comprising of people who may or may not have a claim of descent from Judah, or any other of the 12 tribes, they have no proofs and in fact: the historical record shows mostly they do not, does seem to have been supported by spiritual forces. Keep in mind; there are two kinds of spiritual forces and anyway God uses people to achieve His own purposes.

I see God's Purpose in allowing a false Israel to be established in the holy Land, as His means of diverting attention from His main aim. Which is to form a righteous group of peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language, People who have freely chosen to believe in His Son, whom God sent to redeem them and to teach them to Way of life.

They are the holy nation of the Christian peoples and it is the vast multitude of them, the true Israelites of God, who John sees gathered in Jerusalem, soon after the Lord has cleared, cleansed and regenerated all of the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 35:1-10, Revelation 7:9

We're not too far apart in some respects. I do think God is going to remake a *Jewish Israel.* But on many other issues, we're probably in agreement.

GISMYS_7 · Jul 9, 2021

Why try to deny the truth of God's Word?
Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Romans 11:25-28 I do not want you to be ""ignorant ""of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way ""all Israel will be saved"". As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

marks · Jul 9, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
If you deny there are no "Christian nations" you must be a "flat-earther?" You will find "Christian nations" in the encyclopedia of your choice. Denying that is the equivalent of denying you exist.

Hardly, I should say!

Which is the nation whom God covenanted with as He did with Israel?

I don't know any.

Much love!

Postrib vs Dispy.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads