Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Emily Nghiem

Active Member
Jun 16, 2021
297
105
43
57
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Perhaps we are are saying the same thing but in very different ways. We may have learned to say these things in different ways based on where we grew in the faith.
I do not know how proficient your english, I see your last name is very asian. But I will accept we are conveying the same doctrine in just differently worded ways. I was concerned for your words hinted of other beliefs.
You remind me of how I could not explain Forgiveness to my mother.
She is Vietnamese Buddhist.
I was born and have lived in Texas all my life, so not only American but Texan where Southern Christian and beliefs in God are heavily engrained in the culture and laws.

Talk about "talking about the same thing in different ways":

By the time my mother understood and accepted what it meant to "let go" it was more like Buddhist detachment.
The concept of "attachment to material thinking and conditions" is the Buddhist equivalent of "not coveting" or having "unnatural lust" (which Buddhists call "striving" from one own's will or expectations and this "attachment" is the cause of suffering which Christians refer to as "sinful conditions")

But to get to this agreement to let go, the Buddhist Monk who finally explained it to her, where she accepted it, had to say it using her cultural traditions:

He stated it in terms of Buddha advising to treat all beings with Equal Compassion and Wisdom REGARDLESS how they treat us.
How they act is not our responsibility.
How WE act is our responsibility.
So we still follow the same ethical standards and do not try to be bad to people just because they are bad.

Something like that.

But INDIRECTLY in order to let go means somewhere in that process Forgiveness has to take place.

Nobody I know can have the same loving Compassion "for all people" like God does WITHOUT the Grace that comes from Christ!

Nowhere in there did that explanation say or credit Jesus. But in order to meet that standard, guess what?

People would have to forgive on the level that God does. So to follow that standard, this still requires Christ Jesus to be able to forgive at that level.

It was the most "indirect" way of describing the same process.

But anyone would get stuck, not being able to forgive some things or some people, without God's help through Jesus.
 

Emily Nghiem

Active Member
Jun 16, 2021
297
105
43
57
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Scrip-ture says the Father raised jesus. Scripture also say8s the son raised HImself, and the Spirit raised Jesus and God raised jesus! Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Who did Jesus SAY would raise the temple of His body here?

I don't argue Acts 17 though I question your use of such a poor paraphrase to quote from.
@Wrangler @Ronald Nolette
This is like arguing that when
"God's Justice" restores or raises up
the Temple:
Is that Jesus doing it or God?

BOTH -- because God is doing it through
*His Authority of JUSTICE* which is manifested on man's level as *JESUS*.

Jesus is both one with God, inseparable,
and God's perfect will/justice embodied in man.

If you refer to the manifestation we see from our human perspective, we use the term JESUS for that.

If you refer to this coming from the higher infinite source beyond man, we use the term GOD for that.

This can cause mixed contexts and references because Jesus both comes from God as perfectly one with the Father and manifests on man's level as Jesus the Son.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Wrangler @Ronald Nolette
This is like arguing that when
"God's Justice" restores or raises up
the Temple:
Is that Jesus doing it or God?

BOTH -- because God is doing it through
*His Authority of JUSTICE* which is manifested on man's level as *JESUS*.

Jesus is both one with God, inseparable,
and God's perfect will/justice embodied in man.

If you refer to the manifestation we see from our human perspective, we use the term JESUS for that.

If you refer to this coming from the higher infinite source beyond man, we use the term GOD for that.

This can cause mixed contexts and references because Jesus both comes from God as perfectly one with the Father and manifests on man's level as Jesus the Son.

Well if by all this you mean that Jesus was God in human flesh and not just a manifestation of an attribute of God, I agree. Jesus is God-not HIs Father, but the Son who also is god as the Scriptures clearly say.
This esoteric way of saying things leaves me wondering what you really are trying to say.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Emily Nghiem

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,799
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Scrip-ture says the Father raised jesus. Scripture also say8s the son raised HImself

Scripture never says the son raised himself. Saying I would get my wife a cup of coffee is not the same thing as someone else actually got her a cup of coffee.

The Father alone is God alone. We know this because Scripture says it over and over and over again.

God alone raised Jesus per Acts 17:31 and other verses.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,799
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus is both one with God, inseparable,

While Batman and Robin are the Dynamic Duo, they too are separable.

The separation is that the Father alone is God alone. While we too are one with the Father in John 17:3, that does not make us God.

P1. God is Spirit, who no one has seen.
P2. Jesus is flesh which many have seen.
C. Jesus is not God.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Scripture never says the son raised himself. Saying I would get my wife a cup of coffee is not the same thing as someone else actually got her a cup of coffee.

The Father alone is God alone. We know this because Scripture says it over and over and over again.

God alone raised Jesus per Acts 17:31 and other verses.

Reread John 2:19. Jesus is God as it says in Scripture what do you make of that? what was Jesu8s before He became man? Just an attribute of God like you said earlier?

Once again by refusing to educate yourself, you cripple your u understanding of the Word of God written from c. 4,000B.C. to c. 96 A.D.
 

Emily Nghiem

Active Member
Jun 16, 2021
297
105
43
57
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well if by all this you mean that Jesus was God in human flesh and not just a manifestation of an attribute of God, I agree. Jesus is God-not HIs Father, but the Son who also is god as the Scriptures clearly say.
This esoteric way of saying things leaves me wondering what you really are trying to say.
The more I read arguments over how to say it, I see more and more how our finite/human language isn't perfect enough to describe Jesus/God.

If we state it as saying "Jesus is God" this conveys PART of the meaning that is lost by stating it as "Jesus is God's Word or Authority of Law/Justice" that makes it sound like Jesus is just a manifestation of PART of God and not fully one with ALL of God.

But saying "Jesus is God" sounds confusing because Jesus as the Son is NOT perfectly interchangeable with God as the Father
In ALL CONTEXTS.

@Ronald Nolette all I know is that I agree there is only one God, so when we talk about God this must be the same.
And Jesus is this ONE God connecting with man. Both "God in man" and "God's WORD or Law/Justice embodied in man" describe Jesus.

But saying it one way can confuse and alienate people who say it the other way, and vice versa.

Still only ONE God, and only ONE Jesus as the only Mediator between man and God.

These same arguments that people keep having merely remind me our language is not perfect, and when we try to explain it, it can just cause more confusion.

Sorry about this.
I just agree to understand that we share the same faith in Christ Jesus, and our limited human language and perception fails to do justice and capture the full nature of God and the relationship with God through Jesus.

We can go in circles, and it still doesn't clarify for everyone who relates to the other ways of saying it, and reads the other ways as not accurate.

The nature of God and Jesus is still what it is, even if we fail to explain it perfectly to each other.

It is funny to me how some explanations work for some people and not others!

I can totally relate to the Parable using Govt.
That there are 3 authorities Judicial Legislative Executive but only 1 Govt not 3.

Some people cannot stand or get that way of explaining how the three are one inseparable.

Others totally pick it apart to show it isn't the same as explaining God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

One person tried to explain how H2O manifests as Vapor, Liquid and Ice. But other people pick that apart as well. Liquid is not a bridge between solid and gas but just another form. Etc.

No finite explanation is going to be perfect since God's true nature is infinite and beyond us.

I am just grateful we can even agree on
God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Some people don't even have that much in common.

At least I can tell we share faith in Christ.
One God we connect to and receive through knowing and receiving Jesus.

You remind me to be thankful for the blessings of faith we do have.
Clearly we rely on that where our words and ways of explaining can totally fail and leave us unable to fully reconcile.

I also could not fully resolve things with my mother and rely on faith in God to speak with her in her own ways to figure out the rest!

Since there is only ONE Mediator between God and man, then this still has to be through Jesus. Even if we describe things in different ways, that process of reconciling and receiving God's truth has to be through Christ by definition.
 

Emily Nghiem

Active Member
Jun 16, 2021
297
105
43
57
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
While Batman and Robin are the Dynamic Duo, they too are separable.

The separation is that the Father alone is God alone. While we too are one with the Father in John 17:3, that does not make us God.

P1. God is Spirit, who no one has seen.
P2. Jesus is flesh which many have seen.
C. Jesus is not God.
No, Batman and Robin are separable.

Jesus as the Son/Word of God
is DISTINCT from God as Creator
Or we would not need a DISTINCT name
for Jesus.

But these are inseparable as
God's Justice is inseparable from God's Truth.

Justice and Truth are Distinct but Inseparable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
wow, we're still denying the deity of Christ by crazily arguing that David accepted worship?

what a pitiful state the supposed 'church' is in
 

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject trinitarianism. Read in that light.

those monthesitic Jews put Christ to death for exactly one charge: that He claimed to be equal to God

so is Christ a liar?
that's what you've devoted your life to.
 

Emily Nghiem

Active Member
Jun 16, 2021
297
105
43
57
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
those monthesitic Jews put Christ to death for exactly one charge: that He claimed to be equal to God

so is Christ a liar?
that's what you've devoted your life to.
Dear @post @Wrangler
I thought this was established in Christian faith that Jesus was UNJUSTLY accused and crucified for blasphemy when He WAS telling the truth.

Had Jesus been guilty, the punishment would have been for worldly acts the law authorized the process and penalty for.

I thought that was the whole point!

He DIDN'T commit wrongs, the people wrongly accused, sentenced and punished Jesus.

And Jesus having no debts to pay, this Sacrifice was to redeem for man's sins collectively, which were the reason for the Crucifixion : not to punish Jesus, but to cause redemption of humanity through Jesus, acting on our behalf.
 

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dear @post @Wrangler
I thought this was established in Christian faith that Jesus was UNJUSTLY accused and crucified for blasphemy when He WAS telling the truth.

Had Jesus been guilty, the punishment would have been for worldly acts the law authorized the process and penalty for.

I thought that was the whole point!

He DIDN'T commit wrongs, the people wrongly accused, sentenced and punished Jesus.

And Jesus having no debts to pay, this Sacrifice was to redeem for man's sins collectively, which were the reason for the Crucifixion : not to punish Jesus, but to cause redemption of humanity through Jesus, acting on our behalf.

I agree, He was unjustly accused.
He was accused of falsely presenting Himself as God, the true King of Israel.
And the only way that the charges are false is that He is indeed The King of Israel, equally the LORD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Emily Nghiem

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Psalms 47:7
God is the King of all the earth;
Sing praises with understanding!

Luke 23:3
Pilate asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered him and said, "It is as you say."
 

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Psalms 47:7
God is the King of all the earth;
Sing praises with understanding!

Luke 23:3
Pilate asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered him and said, "It is as you say."

John 19:19-22
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews."'" Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."

Ask 1 Samuel 8:7 who the real king of Israel is? He is the LORD.

John 10:32-33
Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

These pharisees understood Him better than many people who claim to believe Him!
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,799
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The more I read arguments over how to say it, I see more and more how our finite/human language isn't perfect enough to describe Jesus/God.

If we state it as saying "Jesus is God" this conveys PART of the meaning that is lost by stating it as "Jesus is God's Word or Authority of Law/Justice" that makes it sound like Jesus is just a manifestation of PART of God and not fully one with ALL of God.

It’s very simple. One being is God almighty, the LORD of Heavens Armies, Creator of the Universe.

This being selected a man to reconcile and judge the world through. This selected man is adopted, like us, and goes by many titles. I prefer Anointed, to emphasize he was acted upon by God.

To suppose there is more to it is subterfuge, to support a doctrine not found in Scripture.

30 But that was not the end:God raised Him from the dead, 31 and over a period of many days, He appeared to those who had been His companions from the beginning of their journey in Galilee until its end in Jerusalem. They are now witnesses to everyone. 32 We are here to bring you the good news of God’s promise to our ancestors, 33 which He has now fulfilled for our children by raising Jesus. Consider the promises fulfilled in Jesus. The psalmist says, “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.”
Acts 13:30-33 The Voice

He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts17:31
 
Last edited:

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dear @post @Wrangler
I thought this was established in Christian faith that Jesus was UNJUSTLY accused and crucified for blasphemy when He WAS telling the truth.

My dear, Mssr Wrangler put me in ignore very quickly. He can't bear to read these things I show him in the scripture :(
 

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But that was not the end:God raised Him from the dead

Reconcile that with this:

John 2:18-21
So the Jews said to Him, "What sign do You show us for doing these things?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking about the temple of His body.

Jesus is extremely clear that He Himself raises Himself. So He is either God, He is a liar, or He is a lunatic.

Those the scripture calls "unbelievers" say He is a liar and out of His mind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.