Biggest mistake of the church and we need to go back
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
To give His Blood . Look at the3 verses I posted. they say it is the blood that is for the forgiveness of sins. And He did not give His body. He raised it up on the third day as the first fruits of the resurrection as Scripture declares! He took His body back and went to heaven with it, minus the blood. ass it is written, "the life of the flesh is in the blood." that is why with Thomas Jesus said "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see me have". Too many overlook He did not say the customaryu flesh and blood.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
The Bible states Jesus was resurrected a spirit 1 Pet 3:18. He was unrecognized but appeared bodily as many angels in the past had who came to earth. The Bible states very clearly that flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven. Jesus flesh and blood was sacrificed in our behalf, and therefore the taking back of any of the sacrifice nullifies the sacrifice given in our behalf. Jesus appeared in spirit form as well as bodily we believe, when he appeared through locked doors unseen.
Thomas was given what he needed to see to believe that his Lord had been resurrected, even though he did not personally recognize Jesus physically, the marks in the hands convinced him that the one speaking to him was Jesus.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well He was unrecognized by Mary for she at first thought He was the gardener. He was unrecognized by the disciples on the road to Emmaus, because they were kept from recognizing Him until the breaking of bread, so that is an irrelavent argument.
YOu and Barney have failed to biblically prove that Jesus taking back His body as he said He would nullifies the sacrifice.
It was His blood that had to be shed for the remission of sins as I showed you by 20 bible verses. You give me just alot of human reasoning from the Watchtower that has no basis of Scripture.
As for Thomas you are just conjecturing without proof. that is spiritual arrogance. As for appearing through locked doors? does that mean He was a spirit when He walked on water? No human can do that, especially in a strong storm!
But you and Barney both fail to acknowledge or try to refute the bible when Jesus said this:
John 2:18-22
King James Version
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
See verse 21? Jesus spoke of His body!!! Not HIs Spirit(pneuma) but body (soma) when Jesus was resurrected the disciples believed the Scriptures , imagine that the old testament speaks of His bodily resurrection!
Also you both fail to address the fact that the word resurrection (ana-stasis) a standing again, means something that was laid down standing again! Are you saying Jesus died as an invisible spirit creature and sttod up again as an invisible spirit creature.
I know you are confused because of watchtower teaching and reinterpreting the Scripture that says this:
Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:.
they teach you man has no soul but is a soul and man has no immortal spirit as well as His immortal soul and at the resurrection all will have immortal bodies. but these lies run contrary to the simple plain Word of God and have to be shown through slick manipulation of Gods Word and even rewriting Scripture and commanding you to not listen to anyone who contradicts their control of the congregations! these men will recieve their eternal torment if they do not recant these lies!
If you understood that when Jesus appeared to Thomas He said something that most people fail to see the significance of.
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
We all say flesh and blood! even the Jews used this very common idiom of language. Jesus did not. I do not believe Jesus was careless with any word He spoke! He shed all His blood and was quickened by the spirit and in the spirit! He was reanimated in His body by the Father, HImself and the Spirit as the firstfruits of the resurrection that is promised to all (not just 144,000) who trust in His death and physical resurrection alone as the full payment for their sin.
He was put to deat a mere man but raised in that body that is glorified and immortal
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Thanks Ron for your opinion, we disagree sir. I teach Jesus was resurrected as a spirit being and went back to heaven in the form he had before. We teach all residents of heaven are spirit beings, not flesh. We believe flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of the heavens.
NayborBear
Active Member
.....and such is the conundrum within ourselves and between each other eh? 
God's Spirit within our hearts, and minds, and souls, and spirits being unyielding, while the "spirits, and hearts, and minds, and souls, of these "apt to die" flesh bodies" always seeking (a) compromise! Some places is referred to as a "lusting" the one against the other. Other places is referred to as a "hammering out one's salvation with fear and trembling." Yet another as being "lively stones" building a Spiritual house, an Holy Priesthood with spiritual sacrifices acceptable TO God BY Jesus Christ!
Worshiping God in truth with love?
Is not the same as worshiping God in truth AND spirit.
When the reality, or prince of this world (age), keeps hammering home: "Faith and spirit, and 4 dollars, will get you a cup of coffee."
Ya see? A very tangled web!
This is why we must ask Lord of the Harvest, to send even more of His "Harvesting Angels."
Not only for Missionary's and missions work, but also for ourselves and each other.
For we ourselves are the same, and of this same harvest as everyone who has not heard the "good news!"
Unless, of course, one feels one has been harvested enough, and sees no further need, or want to be unentangled further from the tares that "choke!"
God's Spirit within our hearts, and minds, and souls, and spirits being unyielding, while the "spirits, and hearts, and minds, and souls, of these "apt to die" flesh bodies" always seeking (a) compromise! Some places is referred to as a "lusting" the one against the other. Other places is referred to as a "hammering out one's salvation with fear and trembling." Yet another as being "lively stones" building a Spiritual house, an Holy Priesthood with spiritual sacrifices acceptable TO God BY Jesus Christ!
Worshiping God in truth with love?
Is not the same as worshiping God in truth AND spirit.
When the reality, or prince of this world (age), keeps hammering home: "Faith and spirit, and 4 dollars, will get you a cup of coffee."
Ya see? A very tangled web!
This is why we must ask Lord of the Harvest, to send even more of His "Harvesting Angels."
Not only for Missionary's and missions work, but also for ourselves and each other.
For we ourselves are the same, and of this same harvest as everyone who has not heard the "good news!"
Unless, of course, one feels one has been harvested enough, and sees no further need, or want to be unentangled further from the tares that "choke!"
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes I know, I have a watchtrowerr library that matches many small kingdom halls. I even have books and magazines going back to the 1910's. I have seen th emany changes the Watchtower has made concerning their teachings.
But the fact you reject teh physical resurrection of jesus because you have become convinced of this by the watchtower keeps you from all hope of entering Gods Kingdom in any fashion.
I know you do not believe you are part of the 144,000 (unless you do) so are not part of teh spirit class. But even as those who will liver forever on paradise earth, because you reject the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead- you will never see paradise earth either! That is SCripture and not man made reasonings as yo have been ensnared by. I consider you sincere and of good heart but I say this as Pual did:
Romans 10
King James Version
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Jehovahs witnesses is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
I pray one day god opens your eyes so you may see that Jesus rose again from the dead with the body He died in! It was raised glorified and immortal but it was the same body He lived and died in. Outside of trust in that there is no salvation.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Pro 4:18; Dan 12:4 expect to see even more changes in the Christian congregation sir
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Matthew 6:22-23
King James Version
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Well sir, that does not mean that a man made organization like the Watchtower can wholesale change biblical doctrine like they are wont to do! They have predicted the end of the world multiple times, when one had to be born by to be one of the 144,000 mythological saved according to them, when Jesus invisibly returned and set up His kingdom, and on and on and on and on.
When they finally open their eyes and see Jesus is Yahweh as SCriptures say and that He physically rose again from the dead and it is trust alone in His death and resurrection that saves a person, then they will have changed for the good! But as fore the "Governing body of the Watchtower I quote Jesus in His screed against the Scribes:
Luke 11:52
King James Version
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
We teach the Bible sir. Jesus is not YHWH, rather he is the son of YHWH. Accept it or reject it your choice of course. The King James Version of the Bible does not alter it so much that it says that!
Peter said that Jesus was the son of the living God, and Jesus told him that was revealed to him by God, I agree with Jesus, he is the son of the living God. Mat 16:15-17 Why would you believe anything else?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 44:6
King James Version
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Jesus is called Yahweh of hosts here!
He is called equal with His Father in John 2
He is called God in flesh in Timothy
He is creastor and god is creator.
He is part of Elohim and Adonai as both are plural. Elohim Created the heavens and earth.
I agree that jesus is the Son of the living god! He is not His Father! and I agree with Jesus that His Fasther is also His God. the Father is exalted above the son. but you and Barney and wranglewr refuse to acknowledge I am not talking about the persons or their order of exaltation and adoration.
I am talking about the nature or essence of who Jesus was and is! He is fully divinje of fully God!
Who was manifest in the flesh according to this inspired passage of Timothy?
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
What does the name mean in this passage?
Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
It does not say it is just like as if God was with us.
What was Jesus nature or form before He became man according to inspired Scriptures?
Philippians 2:6-7
King James Version
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
See I teach jesus is the son of God! That is who He is as a "person" according ot Scripture.
BUT BUT BUT:
I also teach He is God the Son! for that is who He is in HIs nature as SCripture teaches.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
No sir, we disagree. Thanks for your input Ron. I would recommend more research as it is imperative that one knows God at Jesus' return 2 Thes 1:6-9
NayborBear
Active Member
When "this" is taught the "way" it's being taught? Which is more then less "relegating" the Father and God of Jesus to "chopped liver" status? The Father and God don't much like that yanno?
Meaning, strong delusion is sure to follow.
Such as?:
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I do know HIm and getting to know HIm more each day thanks to prayer and His Word. I do not have to trust some man made organization like the Watchtower to tell me what is plainly written in Scripture. anytime someone says they are the only representatives of God- you should be very very alarmed!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I do not have the gift of interpreting tongues so can you translate what you wrote to me? I have no clue what you are saying here.
NayborBear
Active Member
Well? It's like this. As Jesus said to his disciples who were actually right there looking at him. "If you have seen me?" "You have seen the Father."
If this "essence" that you teach of Jesus, as being fully God?
Then what reason would anyone being taught this nonsense have for going onto the Father?
Because, going to Jesus and going onto the Father is like the difference between grapes and wine.
Teaching that grapes and wine are the same thing? Or, that once you have grapes, you don't need, or even want wine?
You are doing this:
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Which is a position that Jesus the Messiah would NOT take!
But, the spirit of antichrist would!
And strong delusion would cause you to believe it!
1 Peter 2:
(grapes?)
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
(wine!)
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
You should not trust any man for sure. Matter of fact I may be telling you truth or a lie, you are responsible for what you believe and your actions. God chose to include an account in Acts for this very reason. No doubt you recognize Paul as one of Christ's anointed apostles, and that Jesus assigned his disciples to preach and teach all that he commanded, thus making disciples who would continue to do that till the end of this world Mat 28:19,20; 24:14. Even though Paul and all other disciples of Jesus do the assignment, God does not expect you to take it as gospel truth, you will be reached as God has promised, but your part of it is to research what is said, proving by scripture that what we say is either true or false Acts 17:11. That includes the Watchtower, or anyone who discusses God's word with you.
If there is something that you disagree with, then I will be glad to reason with you from the Scriptures sir, as I have been doing.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Grapes are not wine but may become wine. Jesus and teh Father are one! Jesus said if you saw Him you saw the Father! I believe that!
The inspired Word of God says jesus is God, was God in human flesh, the first and last, yahweh, the almighty, The Father is above the son and the son worships His Father as we do! But He is still divine or god as to His nature! He is not God HIs Father, He is God the Son.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I have been posting many things from the Scriptures I disagree with you and your organization, the Watchtower. YOu have not reasoned from teh Scriptures, but simply regurgitated Watchtower and not bible teaching.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Be glad to discuss what you disagree with Ron. That is the way I came into the truth. What is something you disagree with from our teachings, and I will give you the Scriptural reason behind why we practice it.
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