Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
When quenching the Spirit, Yes!
I take it you are a servant of sin. Nothing is too hard for my God.
Nothing can quench the Spirit of the eternal living God...not even Satan...not even your sins. Just as nothing can separate His love for me.
Non sequitur.
Please do not make excuses for yourself to me...I will not have no respect for them.
I'll pray harder. The problem with communication via online forums is that it allows for limited and full understanding, opens the door for misreading someone's character and their true conviction. Not always but sometimes. I would enjoy meeting you in person sometime. You're in Texas and so am I. I'm in Houston. If you would like to meet for coffee and discuss what I suspect are slight differences in theology it would be great.
I have no problem communicating with you. I understand everything you have stated to me.
As I said, I'm in Houston but I do travel the state often. Always good to meet another Christian brother. If your open to meeting sometime send me a message with your location if you do not want to communicate that in the open forum.
It's very presumptuous to label Christians "grace haters" just because they don't subscribe to the unBiblical "sloppy agape", "greasy grace" of Once Saved Always Saved or Antinomianist doctrines.I decided to place this in the DEBATE forum because I have no expectations that @Curtis will engage in anything approaching a brotherly discussion on the Calvinist teaching from the Doctrines of Grace commonly called “Perseverance of the Saints”.
BEGIN FORMAL DEBATE:
It has been falsely claimed by my esteemed opponents that Perseverance of the Saints and O.S.A.S. (once saved always saved) are identical, that they spring from the non-biblical and false teachings of Calvinism and they both teach: “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.
I offer the simplest possible response, just one word sums it up.
Balderdash!
Rather than fight rumors and innuendos and false claims about what Calvinism teaches with endless, unheeded protestations about “straw men” (I was told Calvinists have to use that word in every discussion), I will simply present an explanation from R.C. Sproul of Ligonier Ministries written by a Presbyterian Calvinist to explain to other Calvinists the meaning of Perseverance of the Saints. I then invite my opponent, @Curtis to respond in proper debate form and refute my belief (Perseverance of the Saints) as defined by Mr Sproul as “unbiblical” using scripture and logic to refute the actual claim rather than to attack the imaginary claims of some “invisible Calvinists” that teach whatever it is that @Curtis may have heard.
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
FROM R.C. Sproul Apr 22, 2017
Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.
We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.
I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.
We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.
The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.
I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God. The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been preserved. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.
Two things should be immediately apparent to any honest person reading the explanation of Perseverance of the Saints, by Dr. Sproul (even if you completely disagree with him and me and the P of TULIP):
- To claim that it is “completely unbiblical” or that it is “found nowhere in the Bible”, as some have been known to say in the heat of discussions, it patently FALSE.
- “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” is NOT what the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints teaches and both Dr Sproul and I adamantly reject even the notion that that is what we teach or believe.
I yield the “soapbox” to @Curtis to address how we (Calvinists like Sproul and I) have incorrectly understood (exegesis) the verses quoted above, or have read into them meanings that are not there (eisegesis). I also look forward to reading his scriptural proof that God does not preserve His blood-bought Saints from the moment they receive God’s gift until they arrive home to the reality of “eternal life” in Christ.
Arthur
It is written in your bible the sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.
Excellent post. I am not a Calvinist but I do believe God ordains us to persevere. I do believe OSAS too and often quote RC Sproul.I decided to place this in the DEBATE forum because I have no expectations that @Curtis will engage in anything approaching a brotherly discussion on the Calvinist teaching from the Doctrines of Grace commonly called “Perseverance of the Saints”.
BEGIN FORMAL DEBATE:
It has been falsely claimed by my esteemed opponents that Perseverance of the Saints and O.S.A.S. (once saved always saved) are identical, that they spring from the non-biblical and false teachings of Calvinism and they both teach: “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.
I offer the simplest possible response, just one word sums it up.
Balderdash!
Rather than fight rumors and innuendos and false claims about what Calvinism teaches with endless, unheeded protestations about “straw men” (I was told Calvinists have to use that word in every discussion
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
FROM R.C. Sproul Apr 22, 2017
Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.
We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.
I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.
We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.
The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.
I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God. The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been preserved. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.
Two things should be immediately apparent to any honest person reading the explanation of Perseverance of the Saints, by Dr. Sproul (even if you completely disagree with him and me and the P of TULIP):
- To claim that it is “completely unbiblical” or that it is “found nowhere in the Bible”, as some have been known to say in the heat of discussions, it patently FALSE.
- “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” is NOT what the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints teaches and both Dr Sproul and I adamantly reject even the notion that that is what we teach or believe.
I yield the “soapbox” to @Curtis to address how we (Calvinists like Sproul and I) have incorrectly understood (exegesis) the verses quoted above, or have read into them meanings that are not there (eisegesis). I also look forward to reading his scriptural proof that God does not preserve His blood-bought Saints from the moment they receive God’s gift until they arrive home to the reality of “eternal life” in Christ.
Arthur
If you believe this here you have stated then the sin you commit is not more than you can
I have a real problem with "Total Depravity". I was told by a Calvinist that the "predestined" do not exercise freedom of choice to turn from sin because they are so "totally depraved" that God has to "clean them up a bit" in order that they may see what privileged beneficiaries they are of such glorious salvation denied to those chosen for the Lake of Fire.
