The importance of context...

Robbie · Feb 25, 2011

As some of you may have noticed I get really bummed when I write a paragraph and someone takes a few sentences out and replies... this is because I feel the Spirit of what I'm saying is only fully in the complete context...

I first understood this principle back in the day when I was sitting there listening to a sermon and the pastor quoted. "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man, The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." and like my usual bad (or good) habit self instead of listening to the pastor go on about how heaven was this place that we can't even imagine I continued to read on to the next verse, "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit."... my jaw dropped... I was waiting... actually hoping the guy was going to address the next part but he never did. He left what the Spirit made available out...

That was the first time I began to question what I was being taught... the pastor had just taken the sentence out of context and in doing so left the most important part unsaid, "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit." He had left out the Spirit and what the Spirit made available to us and still lived in the old.

Since then I've been really insistent about things not being taken out of the context of the fullness of what someone's saying...

Check the difference...

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man, The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

or

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man, The things which God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit.

Anyone else experienced anything similar?

Anastacia · Feb 25, 2011

Robbie said:
Anyone else experienced anything similar?

Um, yeah.

jacobtaylor · Feb 25, 2011

Maybe you should start learning context. Heres a quick lesson with the verse you quoted. Do you see the footnote its labeled C Isaiah 64:4 Paul is quoting Isaiah 64:4
Do you see the word them In italic that means it been added.

1 Cor 2
[sup]6[/sup] However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. [sup]7[/sup] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, [sup]8[/sup] which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[sup]9[/sup] But as it is written:

“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[sup]c]" class="footnote">[c][/sup]

[sup]10[/sup] But God has revealed ~~them~~ to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. [sup]11[/sup] For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. [sup]12[/sup] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Isa 64

Isaiah 64
[sup]1[/sup] Oh, that You would rend the heavens!
That You would come down!
That the mountains might shake at Your presence—
[sup]2[/sup] As fire burns brushwood,
As fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!
[sup]3[/sup] When You did awesome things for which we did not look,
You came down,
The mountains shook at Your presence.
[sup]4[/sup] For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.
[sup]5[/sup] You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.

After looking at both it becomes clear Paul is speaking of Jesus not all the really awesome things in heaven. Yes Robbie context is very important. The reveling of Jesus threw the spirit and confirming it with Isa 64:4 How do you suppose Isaiah knew what to write? Dont you suppose he was also inspired as well?Do you see the word them In italic that means it been added.

Robbie · Feb 25, 2011

This topic isn't about whether Isaiah is inspired... it's about context... I don't want to derail this thread... start a topic about that scripture if you want and I'll discuss it with you as long as we can stay respectful...

This topic is about context...

And the importance of that scripture being that when they took it out of context they made it say the opposite of what it was saying which is God has revealed those things to us by His Spirit... they actually made it say the opposite...

Anastacia · Feb 25, 2011

Jacob T said:
Maybe you should start learning context. Heres a quick lesson with the verse you quoted. Do you see the footnote its labeled C Isaiah 64:4 Paul is quoting Isaiah 64:4
Do you see the word them In italic that means it been added.

Isa 64

Isaiah 64
[sup]1[/sup] Oh, that You would rend the heavens!
That You would come down!
That the mountains might shake at Your presence—
[sup]2[/sup] As fire burns brushwood,
As fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!
[sup]3[/sup] When You did awesome things for which we did not look,
You came down,
The mountains shook at Your presence.
[sup]4[/sup] For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.
[sup]5[/sup] You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.

After looking at both it becomes clear Paul is speaking of Jesus not all the really awesome things in heaven. Yes Robbie context is very important. The reveling of Jesus threw the spirit and confirming it with Isa 64:4 How do you suppose Isaiah knew what to write? Dont you suppose he was also inspired as well?Do you see the word them In italic that means it been added.

Very good, Jacob T. Absolutely wonderful.

jacobtaylor · Feb 25, 2011

Anastacia said:
Very good, Jacob T. Absolutely wonderful.

Adds a bit to our revelation doesn't it.

[sup]4[/sup] For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.

God Bless ya I'm off to bed.

Robbie · Feb 25, 2011

whoa... you just basically did the same thing as that pastor and left what's available by the Spirit out... haha

Let me once again keep it in context and let's even keep the context even more complete...

what was said next according to the new was...

"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[sup] [/sup]Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?”[sup][ [/sup]But we have the mind of Christ.

jacobtaylor · Feb 25, 2011

Robbie said:
whoa... you just basically did the same thing as that pastor and left what's available by the Spirit out... haha

Let me once again keep it in context and let's even keep the context even more complete...

what was said next according to the new was...

"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[sup] [/sup]Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?”[sup][ [/sup]But we have the mind of Christ.

Just what is it that's been reveled Robbie?

Robbie · Feb 25, 2011

haha... read what it says above... those who know... know... and those who don't ... can't... they're foolishness to them... so what's the point of even discussing that? People either know it or else it will sound foolish... but that's also another topic... this is about the importance of context... and how things can end up saying the opposite of what they say when taken out of context... like that part of Isaiah that was quoted if you leave out what's been made available to us by His Spirit... when taken out of context it denies the Spirit...

I've actually talked to more than one person who had the same part left out about what the Spirit's made available... I was kind of interested if anyone else has had the same experience? With that or any other scriptures?

jacobtaylor · Feb 25, 2011

No Robbie what we have here is a real treasure. One that gets misquoted and over looked all the time. The treasure is Jesus. Jesus is the only God man has ever seen or heard Thats what Paul is saying. Thats why he Quoted Isaiah. Hes making a much larger statement that most don't realize. Look what Isaiah says,

Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear, Men have not heard in their heart or their ear. Two types of hearing.
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You, Nor has the eye seen any God besides you. There are lots of verses that say no man has seen the Father, but this verse is different. It says, nor has the eye seen any God but you. Read 1 Cor 2 Its clear that Paul is speaking of Jesus. Hes the only God men have seen or heard with their ear or heart. Like I said Robbie its all about context. Its all about knowing God.

[sup]4[/sup] For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.

So now you to know the secret about whats been reveled.

Angelina · Feb 25, 2011

Robbie said:
whoa... you just basically did the same thing as that pastor and left what's available by the Spirit out... haha

Let me once again keep it in context and let's even keep the context even more complete...

what was said next according to the new was...

"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[sup] [/sup]Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?”[sup][ [/sup]But we have the mind of Christ.

Hi Robbie!

Yes, I do know what you are talking about....and yes, I do believe that your OP has been derailed [or at least sidetracked].

Here's a scripture I find being misquoted a lot.

Psalms 37:4 Delight [ H6026] thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

I know a few believers who have used this scripture to pray for a particular [future] marriage partner [even though that person may not even be interested in them]
Then they get really angry and disappointed with God because it did not happen. :huh:

Delight H6026 - ‛ânag
A primitive root; to be soft or pliable, that is, (figuratively) effeminate or luxurious: - delicate (-ness), (have) delight (self), sport self.

When you think about the idea of being soft or pliable, it tends to take away your own desires, as his will becomes your will and the desires of your heart becomes the desire that he has given you. The rest of the scriptures go on thusly....

Psalms 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
Psalms 37:6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

Bless you!

Robbie · Feb 25, 2011

Nah Jacob... you're telling me it says something it doesn't say... you keep quoting Isaiah and then leaving the next part out about what the Spirit's made available or quoting Isaiah and then telling me it's saying something different than what it says... just like in church that day I read it for myself... in context... and the context of what it says is...

“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit.

I don't need someone to bring some private revelation of what they think it really means that's nothing even close to what it says... haha

Here's the thing...

Eye had seen and ear heard Jesus...

Also... the revelation of the things God has prepared for those who love Him is only available to those who have the Spirit... if you have the Spirit you already have Jesus... so obviously these are things that are revealed as being ours after we already have Jesus.

So simply just to reiterate the context of what's being talked about here it's the things that God has prepared for us who love Him... which God has made known to us by His Spirit... simple...

It doesn't need to be changed around into some private interpretation... it says what it says... and I agree with what it says...

That's why I don't have to take it out of context... because I can quote it word for word and agree with it completely... I don't have to be all, "What it's really saying is this thing that it doesn't say which I figured out" hahaha

So yeah... simply reading things in context and not reaching beyond what's written into assumptions about what we think the writer is "really saying" is really important not only when reading the bible but also while reading or responding to each others posts on this board.

dfj · Feb 25, 2011

If I may, de-contextualization has been going on since the beginning of humankind. We have dealt with it more so since the church began, for some, with Peter or for others with Paul.

We know that Christ established the "Church", (ekklesia), but ever since man got a hold of it, we have had "Heresy".
1 Cor 11:18-20; "No doubt there have to be differences, (hairesis), among you to show which of you have God's approval."

If you are willing to do the research, trace back some of these verse notes in the margin of your study Bibles and see just who started the thought. Was it true or was it just another denominationally influenced tradition?

Many verses can stand alone as a Precept and not injure Scriptural context, however, Like Peter said:

2 Peter 3:16; [Paul] writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Why?

Heb 5:11-14; "We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk , being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to discern both good and evil."

1 Cor 2:14-15; "The natural, (governed by the flesh i.e. the sensuous nature), human being, (Psuchikós dé ánthroopos), without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

dfj · Feb 25, 2011

Also, speaking of the importance of context and the truth it conveys, did Jesus really say, "why have you forsaken me"? Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34.

Heb 13:5; God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Was this a Scribal insertion?

Was this a Denomination driven Translation?

Or did God really forsake His Perfect sinless Son?

Take a look at the Aramaic Peshita, (English Translation), by George Lamsa

Take your time and don't fall for the KJV only party line that the Peshita is a not valid translation. Do the research yourself.

jacobtaylor · Feb 25, 2011

Robbie said:
Nah Jacob... you're telling me it says something it doesn't say... you keep quoting Isaiah and then leaving the next part out about what the Spirit's made available or quoting Isaiah and then telling me it's saying something different than what it says... just like in church that day I read it for myself... in context... and the context of what it says is...

I don't need someone to bring some private revelation of what they think it really means that's nothing even close to what it says... haha

Here's the thing...

Eye had seen and ear heard Jesus...

Also... the revelation of the things God has prepared for those who love Him is only available to those who have the Spirit... if you have the Spirit you already have Jesus... so obviously these are things that are revealed as being ours after we already have Jesus.

So simply just to reiterate the context of what's being talked about here it's the things that God has prepared for us who love Him... which God has made known to us by His Spirit... simple...

It doesn't need to be changed around into some private interpretation... it says what it says... and I agree with what it says...

That's why I don't have to take it out of context... because I can quote it word for word and agree with it completely... I don't have to be all, "What it's really saying is this thing that it doesn't say which I figured out" hahaha

So yeah... simply reading things in context and not reaching beyond what's written into assumptions about what we think the writer is "really saying" is really important not only when reading the bible but also while reading or responding to each others posts on this board.

Well Robbie here are a few verses that say no man has seen God in heaven.
John 1:18
1 Tim 6:16
1 John 4:12
Ex 33:20
John 12:45
Col 1:15

The last 2 indicate just what I told you about Pauls quotation from Isaiah 64:4 That Jesus is the image of God. You can see Paul gives a greater account in Colossians.
Col 1:15
[sup]15[/sup] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. [sup]17[/sup] And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. [sup]18[/sup] And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Sorry If you feel I took your thread off topic. You gave the verse and I fall to see myself making up some personal revelation. By simply reading Isaiah 64:4 and knowing what it says in Colossians 1:15-18 combined with verses that say no man has seen God "the Father". The deeper things are reveled threw the Spirit, I asked you what had been reveled in the verse you were speaking about, you replied with.

haha... read what it says above... those who know... know... and those who don't ... can't... they're foolishness to them... so what's the point of even discussing that?

What happens is people take verses out of context by failing to see the theme of the conversation. Thats why I posted the verses before and after the verses you were speaking of, I did the same with Isaiah as well. Your insistence that Isaiah has no bearing on the context shows you want to remove the verse right before your point about the Spirit. In doing so you miss the deeper point Paul is making. That Jesus is the only God man has seen or heard in both the OT and the New.The Spitit was no secret of revelation we can find the same attributes in John, Jesus described them before the Spirit was sent into the world in Acts. Thats not what is being reveled. I can appreciate your simple understanding basic simple truths are the very foundation, but Paul is speaking of the deep things of God. Read the context before, hes speaking of a hidden a mystery a wisdom. No Robbie I think my reply is very much in line with the CONTEXT.

1 Cor 2
[sup]6[/sup] However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. [sup]7[/sup] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, [sup]8[/sup] which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Robbie · Feb 25, 2011

Dude... you're doing the same thing to me as you're doing to the the writer of Corinthians... you're taking stuff out of context and making up stuff that was never said and then responding to it.... neither me on this message board nor Paul in that passage ever said we saw God in heaven with our eyes so all your responses to that are totally and completely irrelevant, pointless and misleading...

What was said in context once again was... let's try a different translation and see if you can comprehend the simplicity of it...

NIV

However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love him

these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

It's the things God has prepared for us that He reveals to us by His Spirit...

How do you respond to that by saying, "Well Robbie here are a few verses that say no man has seen God in heaven." when no one ever said they saw God in heaven... you're arguing with your own imagination... haha

I'm not going to go back and forth with you anymore... it's pointless to me to talk to someone who's responding to their own imagination instead of what's actually said... especially when in doing so they're completely derailing the topic and arguing about stuff that they're pulling out of thin air... haha

Hope you're blessed...

jacobtaylor · Feb 25, 2011

Dude have it your way. I don't want to cause you to like wipe-out ya know like over the falls or sum thing.
I'll just leave ya to drop-in with your mat with what ever you want to hear, instead of hearing from a grommet like me. I wouldn't want you to slop on a slab.

Latter dude.

dfj · Feb 25, 2011

Jacob, I really don't see any definitive framework for suggesting that Paul was talking about Jesus in 1 Cor 2:1-11.

1 Cor 2:1-11: "When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"- but God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God."

This passage is supposedly quoted from Isa 64:4. However it is not quoted literally in either the Masoretic Text or the Septuagint. Some interpreters and commentators claim that only the sense of the passage is given. The words are found in the apocryphal books of Elijah; and Origen and Jerome supposed that Paul quoted from those books. So, it is really evident that Paul had in his eye the passage in Isaiah?

1 Cor 2:9; from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright (c) 1985 by Broadman Press:

"It is not certain where Paul derives this quotation as Scripture. Origen thought it a quotation from the Apocalypse of Elias and Jerome finds it also in the Ascension of Isaiah. But these books appear to be post-Pauline, and Jerome denies that Paul obtained it from these late apocryphal books. Clement of Rome finds it in the Septuagint text of Isa 64:4 and cites it as a Christian saying. It is likely that Paul here combines freely Isa 64:4; 65:17; 52:15 in a sort of catena or free chain of quotations as he does in Rom 3:10-18."

The problem with some commentaries in the margin of many Bibles, is that the commentator might not be correct.

Anastacia · Feb 25, 2011

Jacob T said:
Well Robbie here are a few verses that say no man has seen God in heaven.
John 1:18
1 Tim 6:16
1 John 4:12
Ex 33:20
John 12:45
Col 1:15

The last 2 indicate just what I told you about Pauls quotation from Isaiah 64:4 That Jesus is the image of God. You can see Paul gives a greater account in Colossians.
Col 1:15
[sup]15[/sup] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. [sup]17[/sup] And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. [sup]18[/sup] And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Sorry If you feel I took your thread off topic. You gave the verse and I fall to see myself making up some personal revelation. By simply reading Isaiah 64:4 and knowing what it says in Colossians 1:15-18 combined with verses that say no man has seen God "the Father". The deeper things are reveled threw the Spirit, I asked you what had been reveled in the verse you were speaking about, you replied with.

What happens is people take verses out of context by failing to see the theme of the conversation. Thats why I posted the verses before and after the verses you were speaking of, I did the same with Isaiah as well. Your insistence that Isaiah has no bearing on the context shows you want to remove the verse right before your point about the Spirit. In doing so you miss the deeper point Paul is making. That Jesus is the only God man has seen or heard in both the OT and the New.The Spitit was no secret of revelation we can find the same attributes in John, Jesus described them before the Spirit was sent into the world in Acts. Thats not what is being reveled. I can appreciate your simple understanding basic simple truths are the very foundation, but Paul is speaking of the deep things of God. Read the context before, hes speaking of a hidden a mystery a wisdom. No Robbie I think my reply is very much in line with the CONTEXT.

1 Cor 2
[sup]6[/sup] However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. [sup]7[/sup] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, [sup]8[/sup] which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

You had something revealed to you that you wanted to share with everyone---a great revelation that all seem to miss here posting, except me. I love the revelation, and grateful that you shared it.

jacobtaylor · Feb 25, 2011

Dave Jones said:
Jacob, I really don't see any definitive framework for suggesting that Paul was talking about Jesus in 1 Cor 2:1-11.

1 Cor 2:1-11: "When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"- but God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God."

This passage is supposedly quoted from Isa 64:4. However it is not quoted literally in either the Masoretic Text or the Septuagint. Some interpreters and commentators claim that only the sense of the passage is given. The words are found in the apocryphal books of Elijah; and Origen and Jerome supposed that Paul quoted from those books. So, it is really evident that Paul had in his eye the passage in Isaiah?

Dude look at the sentence before the Isa quote.

[sup]7[/sup] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, [sup]8[/sup] which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Not speaking about Jesus, just who is the Lord of glory?
Read the whole of Isa 64 and tell me its not speaking of Jesus. Who is coming down from Heaven in Rev? Who will make the nations tremble at His presents? Who will make His name known to His adversaries? All of that right before Nor has the eye seen any God besides You, Can you show me where men have seen the Father in Heaven? Of course you can't it has never happened. But Isaiah says God has been seen. So who is it that was seen in the OT. Maybe now your prepared to answer the question I asked of you before. Who was the LORD that appeared to Abraham in Gen 18?

Isaiah 64
[sup]1[/sup] Oh, that You would rend the heavens!
That You would come down!
That the mountains might shake at Your presence—
[sup]2[/sup] As fire burns brushwood,
As fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!
[sup]3[/sup] When You did awesome things for which we did not look,
You came down,
The mountains shook at Your presence.
[sup]4[/sup] For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.
[sup]5[/sup] You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
[sup]6[/sup] But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
[sup]7[/sup] And there is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us,
And have consumed us because of our iniquities.
[sup]8[/sup] But now, O LORD,
You are our Father;
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all we are the work of Your hand.
[sup]9[/sup] Do not be furious, O LORD,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look—we all are Your people!
[sup]10[/sup] Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
[sup]11[/sup] Our holy and beautiful temple,
Where our fathers praised You,
Is burned up with fire;
And all our pleasant things are laid waste.
[sup]12[/sup] Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O LORD?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely?

The importance of context...

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