Catholic Distinctives: Prelimary Questions

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Enoch111

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No, it is based on their irrational virulent anti-Catholic posts and consistent refusal, despite my pleas, to at least consider the relevant questions arising from biblical texts foundational to this debate.
Since you are mischaracterizing evangelicals, looks like you are under some kind of delusion. Every Bible text used to support the false Catholic teachings has been either (1) misunderstood, (2) misinterpreted, (3) misapplied, or (4) twisted out of shape. So one would need a book like Fifty Years in the Church of Rome to refute all that nonsense.

So let's take one example" (3) Why do evangelicals ignore Jesus' authorization of His disciples' role as mediators of divine forgiveness? "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained (John 20:22-23)."

1. Those "disciples" were in fact apostles who received the Holy Spirit immediately after the resurrection of Christ. And according to Scripture there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb.

2. Apostles had special apostolic authority in the NT churches to resolve issues. To either have the church forgive sins or withhold forgiveness until repentance was evident. In the case of Ananias and Sapphira, it was not Peter who brought judgment on them but the Holy Spirit, to whom they lied. In the case of the man in Corinth who committed incest, he was subjected to punishment through Paul's apostolic authority, and then forgiven by the church (not simply by Paul) after repentance. In fact Paul pleaded with the church to let bygones be bygones.

3. The elders of the churches were not authorized to grant absolution. But Catholic priests have been given this "authority" by the Catholic church. Not by God. Indeed the Catholic priesthood violates the priesthood of believers. And the whole concept of the confessional is foreign to Scripture.

4. In James, it says "confess your faults (Gk paraptoma) to one another. But the Catholic bibles have changed that to confess your sins -- not to "one other" but to Father Confessor. "Bless me Father, for I have sinned".

So do you now see how John 20:22-23 has been PERVERTED? Now are the Catholics reading this willing to admit that this is true? That there were no "Father Confessors" in the NT churches, and this is all a sham, since only God can forgive sins and give absolution? And is this "irrational" and "virulent" or is this exactly what Bible-believing Christians have always believed? Now this is not "anti-Catholic" but "anti-Catholic-dogma". BIG DIFFERENCE.

It would take a 1,000 pages or more to show how Bible texts have been perverted by the RCC. And in the end it would not matter to any Catholic who believes that his church is the "true church" and the pope is "the vicar of Christ".
 
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Addy

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@Heart2Soul... I absolutely admit that I jumped the gun... yesterday morning... I saw ANOTHER Catholic thread.... and answered it out of annoyance. ( that in itself is NOT a good or Godly state of mind ). As can be seen... I later realized that not only had I jumped the gun... but I made my comments in a SECTION that was totally meant for this type of topic.... and so.... I apologized and even offered to remove my posts completely.... The matter was resolved quickly and I walked away....

It was when I was re-tagged in the afternoon that things got bad.... and once again... I am guilty of FEEDING the fire with my responses back.
It was my heart's intention to simply walk away after my communication with Mungo... however that did not occur.

Truly.... I have NO desire to talk about Catholicism... and I will make it a point to AVOID all topics relating to this Institution... I will attempt to ACCEPT that this site accepts all denominations.

Tenderly... Addy
 
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Addy

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@Berserk .... I am unable to apologize for the words I have spoken regarding Catholicism. However... I can apologize to YOU personally for posting on your THREAD. You have my assurance that I will not do so AGAIN. Respectfully... Addy
 
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tsr

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With all the various denominations, schisms, associations, divisions, and sects within the Christian faith, some conclude that there are actually different Christian religions. That is not an accurate assessment. There is only one Christian religion. The different branches of the Christian faith are not separate religions, but rather distinct interpretations of what the Christian religion is supposed to be.

For example, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism are very different in their beliefs and practices. At the same time, they all claim to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ; therefore, all three of them are commonly considered part of Christendom. Further, despite all of the differences, they actually agree on many important issues, such as the Trinity and the deity of Christ. While the differences in teaching and practice are important, they do not mean one is Christian and the others are not. Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Protestantism cannot all be correct interpretations of Christianity, but all three can be considered branches of the Christian religion.

Within Protestantism, there are hundreds of different denominations and associations of churches. These are not different Christian religions, either, but different segments of the Protestant branch of Christianity. While there are important differences among the Protestant denominations, the similarities outweigh the differences. Protestant churches agree on the core doctrines of the Christian faith and the five solas, with their disagreements being over non-essential matters.

The most difficult aspect of this question is whether the “Christian” cults, such as the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, should be considered different religions. These groups and many others are defined as cults since they deny one or more of the core doctrines of the Christian religion. At the same time, these groups claim to be Christian and do follow some of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Are their teachings on the person of Christ and the means of salvation biblically accurate? Definitely not. Does this put them outside of the Christian religion? That depends on how religion is defined.
 
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Heart2Soul

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That depends on how religion is defined
James defined it as this:
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
— James 1:27 (KJV)
 
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Berserk

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Enoch: "Since you are mischaracterizing evangelicals, looks like you are under some kind of delusion."
\
As a longtime evangelical pastor and theology professor, I'm confident that I grasp evangelical attitudes better than you, who insipidly pontificate about the demise of evangelicalism with little allowance for individual differences. You will be held accountable for ignorantly slandering the greatest soul winner in Christian history, Billy Graham.

Enoch: So let's take one example" (3) Why do evangelicals ignore Jesus' authorization of His disciples' role as mediators of divine forgiveness? "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained (John 20:22-23)."
And according to Scripture there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Nope! In the first century the title "apostle" is far broader than that (e. g. 2 Corinthians 8:23; Romans 16:7; Didache 11:3-6).

Enoch: "2. Apostles had special apostolic authority in the NT churches to resolve issues. To either have the church forgive sins or withhold forgiveness until repentance was evident."

To use your misguided logic, spiritual principles and faith promises revealed to Jesus' apostles don't apply to us today. Your limitation of the authority to "forgive sins" is a totally arbitrary perversion of the Gospels' role as a model of spirituality for future Christians. If the apostles "can forgive sins," so can Spirit-filled elders. What you don't get is this: The authority to forgive sins is enfolded in the apostles' authority to "bind and loose (Matthew 16:19)," but Jesus then extends the authority of to bind and loose to the entire church (18:17-18)!

Enoch: "And the whole concept of the confessional is foreign to Scripture. 4. In James, it says "confess your faults (Gk paraptoma) to one another. But the Catholic bibles have changed that to confess your sins -- not to "one other" but to Father Confessor. "Bless me Father, for I have sinned"."

First, this comment exposes your ignorance of Greek: "paraptoma" means "sin" as in sin against God (See BAG p. 627).
Second, James' command to "confess your sins to one another" is given in the context of the leadership role of "the elders," the precursors of Catholic priests (5:15-16).
Third, mature spiritual leadership is required to hear confessions and pronounce absolution because the sincerity and clear understanding of confessors must be discerned. So confession to priests or, in the case of evangelicals, to mature leaders is advisable and included in James' phrase "to one another."
Fourth, in my experience, most evangelicals act as if confession to God is sufficient, and so, they see no need to regularly confess their sins to each other. The other day, I overheard 2 Catholics who had just been to confession. They were discussing the need for increased self-awareness to discern sins of omission and unconscious sins of thought and motive. Their priest had given them a book to assist them in this introspective task.
By contrast, I have never seen a widespread evangelical concern for regular confession. Evangelicals act as if post-baptismal confession is optional because failing to do so won't affect their salvation. Such evangelicals should let Socrates famous saying sting: "The unexamined life is not worth living."

In the 19th century the Methodist revival was so widespread that in 1870 40% of all Americans were Methodist. The secret of this revival was the requirement of a weekly class meeting in which they had to confess the inner and outer state of their soul. By the 20th century, Methodists voted to suspend this confession requirement. Their numbers have slowly declined ever since!
 
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BreadOfLife

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3. The elders of the churches were not authorized to grant absolution. But Catholic priests have been given this "authority" by the Catholic church. Not by God. Indeed the Catholic priesthood violates the priesthood of believers. And the whole concept of the confessional is foreign to Scripture.
This is absolute nonsense.

In John 20 - Jesus says the following to the Apostles:
John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this,
he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained."


Whose sins YOU forgive and whose sins YOU retain.
The Greek word for "forgive" here is aphiemi, which means: "to send away, to send forth, yield up, to expire, to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit."
This is the very definition of "absolving" sin.
4. In James, it says "confess your faults (Gk paraptoma) to one another. But the Catholic bibles have changed that to confess your sins -- not to "one other" but to Father Confessor. "Bless me Father, for I have sinned".

So do you now see how John 20:22-23 has been PERVERTED? Now are the Catholics reading this willing to admit that this is true? That there were no "Father Confessors" in the NT churches, and this is all a sham, since only God can forgive sins and give absolution? And is this "irrational" and "virulent" or is this exactly what Bible-believing Christians have always believed? Now this is not "anti-Catholic" but "anti-Catholic-dogma". BIG DIFFERENCE.

It would take a 1,000 pages or more to show how Bible texts have been perverted by the RCC. And in the end it would not matter to any Catholic who believes that his church is the "true church" and the pope is "the vicar of Christ".
This is more nonsense . . .

First of all - the word used in James 5:16 is ηαμαρτια (ham-ar-tee'-ah) - which is defined as "SIN".
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, SIN
2) that which is done wrong, SIN, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act

_
It's the SAME Greek word used elsewhere for "sin" - as we see in John 9:40-41, when Jesus rebukes the Pharisees by telling them:
John 9:40-41
“If you were blind, you would not be guilty of SIN, but now because you claim that you can see, your SIN remains.

The Catholic Church doesn't change James 5:16 - ONE BIT.
And it would take at LEAST 1,000 pages to show where ignorant anti-Catholics have falsely accused the Catholic Church . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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Truly.... I have NO desire to talk about Catholicism... and I will make it a point to AVOID all topics relating to this Institution... I will attempt to ACCEPT that this site accepts all denominations.
For a person who claims to NOT want to discuss Catholicism - you certainly rear your head on virtually EVERY Catholic thread on this forum.

Dishonest to the end . . .
 
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Berserk

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II. QUESTIONS PREMINARY TO A DISCUSSION OF THE REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN THE ACT OF PARTAKING OF HOLY COMMUNION:

Academic commentaries on John rightly note the shift in focus in John 6:35ff. from believing in Jesus as the bread of life to Eucharistic eating and drinking of Jesus flesh and blood (6:53-58).

"Those who munch ("trogo") on my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them." Trogo" ('munch") is not used in a merely figurative sense and the clear implication is that by drinking Jesus' blood (=the Communion cup) produces a mutual abiding of Jesus in us and we in Jesus--in other words, the real presence of Christ during this sacramental act. This concept of mutual abiding is again applied to the Eucharist in the Parabolic vine and branches imagery of the Last Supper Discourse (15:1-7). In the first century such imagery is applied to Jesus only in a Eucharistic context:

"Concerning the Eucharist (Communion) give thanks like this: First for the cup: We give thanks to You, our Father, for Your holy vine of David (Jesus), Your servant, which You made known to us through Jesus, Your Servant (Didache 9:1-2)."
"But you have blessed us with spiritual food and drink and eternal light through your Servant (Didache 10:3)."

Jesus' teaching in John 6:56 that He is really present in the Eucharistic act explains these 5 otherwise inexplicable facts:
(1) Why Jesus relocates His discussion of Holy Communion from the Last Supper (John 13:2ff.) to John 6
(2) Why Jesus teaches that He comes to abide in "those who munch on (Greek: "trogo") my flesh and drink my blood (John 6:56)?" "Trogo" is never used figuratively!
(3) Why Jesus says, "My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink (6:55) and then adds, "Whoever eats me will live because of Me (6:57)?"
(4) Why Jesus does not try to prevent the mass exodus of offended disciples who take Him literally (6:66)?
(5) Why the consequences of failing to discern Christ's body in the Eucharist are so uniquely severe: "many of you are sick and ill and many have died" because you "eat and drink (the bread and wine) without "discerning the Body (1 Corinthians 11:29-30)?"
 
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Marymog

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I think the question should be... WHY on earth do Catholics come into Non Denominational Forums to cause strife????

I certainly do not SEEK OUT Catholic forums.... because I do not desire to have conversations about Catholicism...
I find it so strange that the Catholics seem to think they need to come and defend their faith here ... when in all reality...
there would be NO discussions about Catholicism.

It's one thing to have discussions between protestant doctrines with other protestants... but absolutely FRUITLESS to have discussions about faith between Catholic and Protestant... the two sides are completely opposite.

I am a former Catholic... in real life... I would never ever attend a Catholic church... that is my choice... I do not go around bashing Catholics... it is Catholicism that I loathe.

I don't think the Catholics would tend to find themselves wandering in and attending any kind of Protestant services either... so why should the forums be any different?
Hi Addy. This forum has plenty of strife without any Catholic involving themselves in the discussion. Furthermore, there are members of other denominations on this forum. Why did you not accuse them of causing strife?

Curious Mary
 
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