What the Word says about the Rapture

revturmoil · Feb 28, 2011

Anastacia said:
I figured as much....you just couldn't stop yourself from posting back your personal attack on me. You are guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse me of. Now go read what you said about me---that is who you are.....the proof is in what you posted. Did you not know you are not supposed to personally attack? That's the rule's here. Did you not know as a Christian you are not supposed to slander?
We don't have to know a little Greek, nor a little Hebrew, nor a little Aramaic. Doesn't matter how many times you come back to say otherwise. I guess those who don't know Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic think I'm nice and standing up for the Truth? Stop judging.

Whether there is or is not an ignore feature, all I can say is goodbye and enjoy yourself. I have no desire to deal with you...you're not my type!

BYE!

Anastacia · Feb 28, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
Whether there is or is not an ignore feature, all I can say is goodbye and enjoy yourself. I have no desire to deal with you...you're not my type!

BYE!

But wait....reconsider?

veteran · Mar 1, 2011

Michael V Pardo said:
When I was a newborn in Christ, I really loved the idea of being raptured away by God prior to the events of the Great tribulation, but over the years, the Teacher has been showing me verses which led me to doubt the doctrine as it was taught to me. 1st Thessalonians definitely foretells the event referred to as the Rapture, so I believe in it, but a few nights ago the Lord showed me something from the book of the Revelation, which I'd read many times before, but never quite got.
Verses 4 through 6 of chapter 20 describe those who will live and reign with Christ during the millenial kingdom and identifies them as those who have taken part in the first resurrection (also known as the resurrection of the Just.) The second resurrection (of the rest of the dead) doesn't occur until the end of the millenial reign and the battle of Armageddon.
1st Thessalonians chapter 4, in verses 13 through 17 describe the event referred to as the rapture and identify the timing as immediately following the raising up of the dead in Christ. Since there are only 2 resurrections, this resurrection spoken of by the Apostle Paul is also the first resurrection (or resurrection of the just).
Now, according to the book of the Revelation the first resurrection happens after (or coincides with) the return of Christ in victory over the anti-christ. Those servants of God who have been justified through faith in Christ (both before His birth and after) that are to be rewarded with thrones during the millenial kingdom are described to include those who were beheaded for their testimony, did not receive the mark of the beast, and did not worship the beast nor his image (Rev.20:4).
You could try to make a case for these "tribulation" saints being Jews or others saved after the rapture, but then you have 3 resurrections and 2 churches. Furthermore, chapter 7 of the book of the Revelation, which describes the 144,000 saints from the tribes of Israel, also describes a "great multitude which no one could number" of all nations, tribes, and tongues who are also dressed in white robes and worshipping the lamb. This great multitude is further identified in the latter part of the chapter as those who have come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb. These same also are described as standing before the throne of God, serving Him night and day. We don't need to invent some other gospel through which these are saved, as they are identified as having received the sacrifice of our Savior's blood.
As I said before, I'd read these verses many time without making the connection (although the rapture doctrine as I was taught it, tended to confuse the issue.) I firmly believe that God reveals those things that we need to know and understand, when we need to know them. The days are short indeed. Hallelujah and Amen.

I hope you hang onto that specific understanding about the timing Michael. You're going to see many more Bible witnesses to that as you stay in study of God's Word asking His help.

Once curious matter you mentioned about the timing of Armageddon though. You inferred it happens after Christ's thousand years reign. That battle happens on the 7th vial of Christ's coming. Note it's about the gathering of the wicked and devils for the final battle of this present world per Rev.16:13-17. It's OT parallel is Ezek.38-39. Ezekiel 40 forward is after Christ's return. Especially notice our Lord's words in Rev.16:15 just prior to that battle and 7th vial, that He comes as a thief, and for His saints to keep their garments lest they walk naked in shame. That's shows us Christ's coming is not until that 7th vial.

Another matter that's easy to confuse is the 2nd inferred resurrection. The "first resurrection" is only of those who remain faithful to Christ, through history and through the future tribulation. But the later second resurrection at the great white throne judgment is not one unto death, but another one unto life like the first. I know that may sound totally different than what is most often taught, but bear with me a minute.

As our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29, both the just AND the unjust will be raised at His second coming. The unsaved of the nations will still exist for Satan to try and deceive at the end of the thousand years (per Rev.20:9). Those unsaved will be resurrected at Christ's coming also, but unto the "resurrection of damnation", i.e., a different spiritual state. Our Lord showed in John 5:29 they're raised at His coming also, but not unto Life like those of the first resurrection.

The reason the still unsaved "dead" of Rev.20:5 are called "the dead" is because even though in resurrection bodies, their "resurrection of damnation" means they are still subject to the later "second death" (cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years). That's who those of the first resurrection will reign over with Christ's rod of iron. As written in Isaiah 29:24, those are the ones "...that erred in the spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." Many of them have been blinded by God for this world, not being given eyes to see and ears to hear.

This is why Satan is loosed once more at the end of the thousand years to go tempt them. Some of those will believe, remain faithful to Christ and be saved, their names found in the Book of Life at the end. Those are the inferred second resurrection unto eternal Life through Christ. The rest will still choose to follow the devil to the end, and will perish at the second death with him.

michaelvpardo · Mar 1, 2011

veteran said:
I hope you hang onto that specific understanding about the timing Michael. You're going to see many more Bible witnesses to that as you stay in study of God's Word asking His help.

Once curious matter you mentioned about the timing of Armageddon though. You inferred it happens after Christ's thousand years reign. That battle happens on the 7th vial of Christ's coming. Note it's about the gathering of the wicked and devils for the final battle of this present world per Rev.16:13-17. It's OT parallel is Ezek.38-39. Ezekiel 40 forward is after Christ's return. Especially notice our Lord's words in Rev.16:15 just prior to that battle and 7th vial, that He comes as a thief, and for His saints to keep their garments lest they walk naked in shame. That's shows us Christ's coming is not until that 7th vial.

Another matter that's easy to confuse is the 2nd inferred resurrection. The "first resurrection" is only of those who remain faithful to Christ, through history and through the future tribulation. But the later second resurrection at the great white throne judgment is not one unto death, but another one unto life like the first. I know that may sound totally different than what is most often taught, but bear with me a minute.

As our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29, both the just AND the unjust will be raised at His second coming. The unsaved of the nations will still exist for Satan to try and deceive at the end of the thousand years (per Rev.20:9). Those unsaved will be resurrected at Christ's coming also, but unto the "resurrection of damnation", i.e., a different spiritual state. Our Lord showed in John 5:29 they're raised at His coming also, but not unto Life like those of the first resurrection.

The reason the still unsaved "dead" of Rev.20:5 are called "the dead" is because even though in resurrection bodies, their "resurrection of damnation" means they are still subject to the later "second death" (cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years). That's who those of the first resurrection will reign over with Christ's rod of iron. As written in Isaiah 29:24, those are the ones "...that erred in the spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." Many of them have been blinded by God for this world, not being given eyes to see and ears to hear.

This is why Satan is loosed once more at the end of the thousand years to go tempt them. Some of those will believe, remain faithful to Christ and be saved, their names found in the Book of Life at the end. Those are the inferred second resurrection unto eternal Life through Christ. The rest will still choose to follow the devil to the end, and will perish at the second death with him.

I can accept your understanding of the great white throne judgment, not because the Lord has taught me this, but I see it as more in character with his grace. E.G. not everyone had the chance to hear the gospel. However, Rev.20:7-9 does speak of the gathering together of Gog and Magog for battle against the saints at the end of the 1000 years. It's a short battle, as the scripture says that fire came down from God and devoured them. There is another description of the plague that takes them which is in the OT and a bit more graphic, but I believe that this gathering was to be at Har Meggido, hence Armageddon. I also realize that the plain below Har Meggido was the place of former battles and is suited to it, so there may be such a gathering during the tribulation period, but it obviously isn't the one mentioned in Revelation chapter 20. I don't need to know or understand everything in the book, but I do need to be accurate with regard to what is unfolding now. Some of the saints understand and rejoice in the nearness of our Lord, yet many will be surprised by what overtakes them and are unprepared for the trials to come. We are called to the building up of the saints and I don't want to be slack in this respect. Many will see the rise of the anti-Christ and wonder why they are still here. Others will have their faith weakened or shattered as it isn't deeply rooted in the Word. There's an old blues tune called "Keep your lamps trimmed and burning" and this is good advice.

I've also notice some comments aimed at other members making postings and comments which don't appear to be done in a spirit of love. So I ask, please, obey the commandment of our Lord and love one another if you indeed call upon the name of our Savior. Peace! There is room for different understandings; We all grow in sanctification through the word and our understanding changes with time. What is necessary for the time is forgiveness and love. I say this like it's easy when I know that it's not, but where the Spirit of the Lord is there is peace.

Surf Rider · Mar 1, 2011

Kaoticprofit, shame on you.

Surf Rider · Mar 1, 2011

If somebody says that they know the original languages, such as the greek NT, they are full of brown stuff. It is an extinct language. The scholars can't even agree on how it is pronounced, it grammatical rules, etc.. That's why a person can buy any of 2 dozen lexicons with their own greek renderings, with each having variants on accidence, each stating it to be "truth". Not to mention that a person can't show me one that was not taken from German or Latin! How "original languages" is that?!!! They can't even agree on the general classifications of types of words! Yet they all avow most emphatically that one must "know" the original languages. It's really hard to find a more two-faced belief than that. Even children see this dichotomy.

A more blind, arrogant statement than one needs to "know" the originals is harder to find, and is about errant as a person can get.

Poor, silly God -- to need us to know the originals to have insight, which God says comes by His Spirit ONLY. To hold otherwise, is to assert that the Pharisees and Sadducees had far more wisdom in spiritual things than we will ever, ever have: they had the original language down pat, and had better "manuscripts" than we can ever hope to have! Obviously, then, scripture was so right when God said that "knowledge puffs up". Indeed, it clearly has, such as with K-profit.

Shame on you, K-profit, for your bad heart that you can't hide.

The bible surely states, "you must know original languages, or you're in the dark for "true" spiritual understanding." Why on earth, then, did God speak to them in their own languages? Why then the gift of the Spirit for speaking in their native tongue, instead fo the Spirit having them hear miraculously in the "original" languages? Such man made philosophies are meant purely to lord it over those who have not been "trained" in the "original languages". It is merely a system of keeping the laity in perpetual spiritual subserviance. And the proof of that fact is staring everybody on earth right in the face: just look at the sick state of the church under the current system of what has been forced on Christendom for almost 2000 years now -- it just changed it's mask in the reformation. The proof is in the pudding. Only one who has the same heart as Saul before Samuel denies the facts that everyone else sees so clearly.

Anastacia · Mar 1, 2011

Surf Rider said:
If somebody says that they know the original languages, such as the greek NT, they are full of brown stuff. It is an extinct language. The scholars can't even agree on how it is pronounced, it grammatical rules, etc.. That's why a person can buy any of 2 dozen lexicons with their own greek renderings, with each having variants on accidence, each stating it to be "truth". Not to mention that a person can't show me one that was not taken from German or Latin! How "original languages" is that?!!! They can't even agree on the general classifications of types of words! Yet they all avow most emphatically that one must "know" the original languages. It's really hard to find a more two-faced belief than that. Even children see this dichotomy.

A more blind, arrogant statement than one needs to "know" the originals is harder to find, and is about errant as a person can get.

Poor, silly God -- to need us to know the originals to have insight, which God says comes by His Spirit ONLY. To hold otherwise, is to assert that the Pharisees and Sadducees had far more wisdom in spiritual things than we will ever, ever have: they had the original language down pat, and had better "manuscripts" than we can ever hope to have! Obviously, then, scripture was so right when God said that "knowledge puffs up". Indeed, it clearly has, such as with K-profit.

Shame on you, K-profit, for your bad heart that you can't hide.

The bible surely states, "you must know original languages, or you're in the dark for "true" spiritual understanding." Why on earth, then, did God speak to them in their own languages? Why then the gift of the Spirit for speaking in their native tongue, instead fo the Spirit having them hear miraculously in the "original" languages? Such man made philosophies are meant purely to lord it over those who have not been "trained" in the "original languages". It is merely a system of keeping the laity in perpetual spiritual subserviance. And the proof of that fact is staring everybody on earth right in the face: just look at the sick state of the church under the current system of what has been forced on Christendom for almost 2000 years now -- it just changed it's mask in the reformation. The proof is in the pudding. Only one who has the same heart as Saul before Samuel denies the facts that everyone else sees so clearly.

You have blessed me so much by what you wrote here. I'm grateful to of read this excellently written truth. There are so many Christians getting into learning Greek and Hebrew....and speaking to all as if it is a necessity to know. I truly am thinking of the baby Christian and those not yet Christian, and how it could be a stumbling block for them to believe they need to learn a new language to be serious about God. Thank you.

tomwebster · Mar 1, 2011

Surf Rider said:
If somebody says that they know the original languages, such as the greek NT, they are full of brown stuff. ...

No, you are! This is as foolish a post as I have read on CB. You have no idea what you are talking about.

hereister · Mar 1, 2011

tomwebster said:
No, you are! This is as foolish a post as I have read on CB. You have no idea what you are talking about.

That's right. No one needs to know the greek and hebrew as a second language to learn the scriptures, but....having the tools to take the English words back to the original, does give one a better understanding of God's word. It wasn't written in English and alot gets lost in the translations....

For me, I'd rather know what God is saying, especially if I'm having a difficult time, by going back to the original words. It makes a world of difference. And I don't see it as being too much trouble....anything worthwhile is worth the work.

That's why God calls his truth like a treasure...it's not found on the surface, you have to dig for it.

revturmoil · Mar 1, 2011

Surf rider said,

Shame on you, K-profit, for your bad heart that you can't hide.

The bible surely states, "you must know original languages, or you're in the dark for "true" spiritual understanding."

Shame on you for accusing me of a bad heart.

Shame on you for false accusasions! I never said you must know the original language. Only that we should use those resources. I never said anyone would be in the dark for true spiritual understanding. You did!

You too must have an inferiority complex...and a serious lack of common sense!

Thank God for the ignore feature. That way I don't have to listen to the slander of people who call good evil...and call evil good...

All I see is...

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by...

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Titus 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

James 4:11 ¶Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law,

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

I've been here less than a week and I already have 2 people on ignore! I like it! It's a little like the separation of sheep and goats!

Surf Rider · Mar 1, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
Surf rider said,

Shame on you for accusing me of a bad heart.

Shame on you for false accusasions! I never said you must know the original language. Only that we should use those resources. I never said anyone would be in the dark for true spiritual understanding. You did!

You too must have an inferiority complex...and a serious lack of common sense!

Thank God for the ignore feature. That way I don't have to listen to the slander of people who call good evil...and call evil good...

All I see is...

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by...

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Titus 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

James 4:11 ¶Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law,

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

I've been here less than a week and I already have 2 people on ignore! I like it! It's a little like the separation of sheep and goats!

It's ok to read the KJV or other versions to get a general understanding of God's Word. To really study it, esp. eschatology, you must have resources in the original language.

The verse you quote is basically saying that people with worldly wisdom and knowledge can't take in the simple truths of God's Word.

We must know Christ and not just know about Christ. Any serious student of God's Word should do their research in the original language to get the full understanding of it. Several other resources like a good bible dictionary is a must for someone seeking a full understanding of the truth.

"Any serious student of God's word shoud do their research IN the original language to get the full understanding of it."

Yes, you said "should". You also said IN. And also stated that if they don't, they are not serious students of God's word -- they aren't serioius students of God's word. You cannot hide your heart.

You lambasted Anastasia, and lambaste others, but can't see this that others see so hugely.

Then you continue to be derogatory with the "ignore" statements.

Then you quote scripture. Novel.

Your fathers did this to Christ.

Anastacia · Mar 2, 2011

Surf Rider said:
It's ok to read the KJV or other versions to get a general understanding of God's Word. To really study it, esp. eschatology, you must have resources in the original language.

The verse you quote is basically saying that people with worldly wisdom and knowledge can't take in the simple truths of God's Word.

We must know Christ and not just know about Christ. Any serious student of God's Word should do their research in the original language to get the full understanding of it. Several other resources like a good bible dictionary is a must for someone seeking a full understanding of the truth.

"Any serious student of God's word shoud do their research IN the original language to get the full understanding of it."

Yes, you said "should". You also said IN. And also stated that if they don't, they are not serious students of God's word -- they aren't serioius students of God's word. You cannot hide your heart.

You lambasted Anastasia, and lambaste others, but can't see this that others see so hugely.

Then you continue to be derogatory with the "ignore" statements.

Then you quote scripture. Novel.

Your fathers did this to Christ.

Thanks again, brother. Thanks again.

Search

Search

What the Word says about the Rapture

revturmoil

New Member

Anastacia

New Member

veteran

New Member

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member

Surf Rider

New Member

Surf Rider

New Member

Anastacia

New Member

tomwebster

New Member

hereister

New Member

revturmoil

New Member

Surf Rider

New Member

Anastacia

New Member

Similar threads