The great tribulation is rapidly approaching, survival depends on doing God's will Mat 7:21

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Ronald Nolette

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Spirit anointed Christians called to be holy ones will meet the Lord in the air upon his return. The other sheep Jn 10:16 in which you called gentiles, but are really not in the strictest sense of the word, are those who are not of the little flock. They are innumerable, and righteous in God's eyes as they are the ones who come out of the tribulation and stand before the Lamb. I know it is difficult to understand, but not too bad if you keep in mind God's purpose for the earth.


Once again you simply vomit the pap force fed you from your "anointed class". The other sheep Jesus referred to were gentile believers as was shown shortly after Pentecost. reinterpreting the scriptures brings condemnation!
 

Ronald Nolette

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I fully agree, although many do. Of course that is not to say that God's people go it on their own, as there are multiple congregations of the faith, and no doubt you realize that we are commanded to gather together as a united people in the faith according to Heb 10:24,25. You do believe that don't you Ron?


Yes many sects still have believing congregations that meet. But Jehovahs witnesses are not a Christian Congregation. Very spiritual, and very religious, but not according to accurate knowledge.
 
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Davy

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Spirit anointed Christians called to be holy ones will meet the Lord in the air upon his return. The other sheep Jn 10:16 in which you called gentiles, but are really not in the strictest sense of the word, are those who are not of the little flock. They are innumerable, and righteous in God's eyes as they are the ones who come out of the tribulation and stand before the Lamb. I know it is difficult to understand, but not too bad if you keep in mind God's purpose for the earth.


The other sheep Jesus was pointing to in John 10:16 that He will gather (in conjunction with believing Israel) is about the believing Gentiles, like those of the "great multitude" of Rev.7 that are sealed. All those in that Rev.7 is about those 'sealed' with God's seal, otherwise they would not be shown serving The Lamb, nor having overcome by the Lamb's Blood.

As for the 144,000 of Israel, no brainer to know they are sealed with God's seal, because the Rev.7 Scripture tells us that directly!

Also about Rev.7, that is NOT about a false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. The "great multitude" shown having come out of great tribulation and washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb means they went through... the tribulation and overcame in Christ Jesus.
 

Robert Gwin

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how horrible ..... OP's post is Wrong ... just as every comment following that ...

The great tribulation is horrible sir, the most horrible thing that man will ever have to go through honestly. I seriously doubt that any of us wants to go through it, yet we realize that for God's kingdom to come, it has to precede that coming as well. All of us Christians have prayed for, and continue to pray for God's Kingdom to come, and we fully realize that many of us will have to endure the tribulation for that to happen, but we also realize that the end results will be well worth it.
 
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Robert Gwin

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and the reason God gives in prophets is the following :
they believe in my son [=which is good ofcourse] ,
but they interpret it as their total salvation .

now
God does NOT say ofcourse 'that souls will not be saved when accepting Christ' --
that is impossible

but
God's main concern is "the time of Revelation" , in prophets

cont

The literal theme of the Bible is: The vindication of Jehovah's sovereignty and the fulfillment of His purpose for the earth by means of His Kingdom under Christ, the promised offspring. That is God's main concern. Everyone who receives salvation will receive it through the ransom sacrifice given through Jesus the Christ sir. Many souls will be saved, all that are obedient to the Christ. That is a promise from God Himself, and is just as sure as His existence.
 

Davy

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Well said. This is clearly stated in scripture, but so widely misunderstood or denied.

It wouldn't matter if one was the purest soul on earth prior to Christ's return, that isn't what the end of this world is about. Instead, it's about keeping Christ's commandments and Testimony of The Gospel, and remaining faithful waiting on His coming all the way through the coming tribulation.
 

Robert Gwin

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The other sheep Jesus was pointing to in John 10:16 that He will gather (in conjunction with believing Israel) is about the believing Gentiles, like those of the "great multitude" of Rev.7 that are sealed. All those in that Rev.7 is about those 'sealed' with God's seal, otherwise they would not be shown serving The Lamb, nor having overcome by the Lamb's Blood.

As for the 144,000 of Israel, no brainer to know they are sealed with God's seal, because the Rev.7 Scripture tells us that directly!

Also about Rev.7, that is NOT about a false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. The "great multitude" shown having come out of great tribulation and washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb means they went through... the tribulation and overcame in Christ Jesus.
I fully agree Davy. We may understand the term Gentiles a bit differently however, since I don't really use that term in conjunction with the other sheep.
 

Davy

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The great tribulation is horrible sir, the most horrible thing that man will ever have to go through honestly. I seriously doubt that any of us wants to go through it, yet we realize that for God's kingdom to come, it has to precede that coming as well. All of us Christians have prayed for, and continue to pray for God's Kingdom to come, and we fully realize that many of us will have to endure the tribulation for that to happen, but we also realize that the end results will be well worth it.

In what 'way' will it be horrible? You haven't been reading Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye fiction books have you?

Per Lord Jesus, the coming "great tribulation" is going to be a time of world peace, when all wars have stopped (Matthew 24:6). The opposite of a time of wars and rumors of wars is a time of peace. Apostle Paul showed this for the end also...

1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV


That "day of the Lord" is the final day... of this present world when Lord Jesus returns to gather His faithful Church. Paul here in 1 Thess.5 is actually pulling from the Old Testament prophets here about that day, like from the Book of Isaiah. That "day of the Lord" is that day of "sudden destruction" upon the wicked that shall happen on the day of Christ's return. The wicked will not escape it. But just prior to that 'day', it will be a time of world peace on earth, which is why the wicked and deceived will be saying that, "Peace and safety".

Daniel was given to prophesy of that future time of 'peace and safety' also, in Daniel 8:23-26, which is a parallel to the Revelation 13:4-8 events of the symbolic dragon's 42 month reign.

We were given specific warnings about a coming false Messiah for the end, in Jerusalem, playing Christ, with the whole world believing on him in place of God. This is why the whole world will be at peace, with all wars stopped. That false Messiah is going to have miraculous supernatural power over the earth which will cause the deceived to believe he is God (Revelation 13:11 forward; 2 Thessalonians 2).

Only Christ's faithful that heed His command to 'watch' will know that one is a fake, and to wait on Lord Jesus' return at the end of that tribulation. If one's Church is not warning of these things from God's Word, then they are preparing their congregations to be deceived away from Lord Jesus Christ. Take heed.
 

Davy

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We may understand the term Gentiles a bit differently however, since I don't really use that term in conjunction with the other sheep.

Yeah, I noticed that. But that's who He was pointing to, along with scattered Israelites among believing Gentiles that would make up His Church.
 

BibleStu

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It wouldn't matter if one was the purest soul on earth prior to Christ's return, that isn't what the end of this world is about. Instead, it's about keeping Christ's commandments and Testimony of The Gospel, and remaining faithful waiting on His coming all the way through the coming tribulation.
I don’t see that you’ve said anything contrary here. Do we not all agree that you must be born again? That unfruitful branches will be cast into the fire? That the Book of Life records the judgment? That such salvation comes from that faith that leads you to be truly born again?
 

Davy

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I don’t see that you’ve said anything contrary here. Do we not all agree that you must be born again? That unfruitful branches will be cast into the fire? That the Book of Life records the judgment? That such salvation comes from that faith that leads you to be truly born again?

Other than being a believing Christian, Lord Jesus gave those of His at the end of this world a command to 'watch'.

Mark 13:37
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
KJV


Watch what? Those who listen to the Pre-trib Rapture doctors don't know, because they are told to disregard that Mark 13 Chapter, because they say it was written only to the Jews. Telling them that is a direct denial of Christ's command to 'Watch' there.

Our Lord Jesus spoke that about watching those main Signs of the end of this world He gave there upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples. The last Sign He gave there is about His future coming to gather His faithful Church that wait for Him.

What do I mean by 'wait for Him'?

The main Sign of warning He gave to watch for there is that of the pseudo-Christ, a false Messiah that others will say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", and He said don't believe it. That is a parallel to the coming "man of sin" Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2 to Jerusalem for the end that will work those great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world into worshipping him as God.

So what are we to do, sit in our houses and act like monks, praying and fasting only? God forbid no. We are to be watching those Signs He commanded us to watch, so as to NOT be deceived by that coming false Messiah, and STAY faithful waiting on Christ's coming to destroy that false one later. We are going to receive temptations from our own family members that are deceived to go and worship that false one. That is how far reaching the deception during the great tribulation is going to be. Some of us will be arrested for refusing to bow to that coming false one, and some of us will be put to death. Still, we are to remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come, regardless of the danger of death.

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose (his life) shall preserve it.


34 I say unto you, in that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

36 (There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.)

37 And they answering say unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Where the body (is), thither will the eagles also be gathered together."

ASV

Lord Jesus gave the key to that even in that 33rd verse. Whosoever seeks to save their life shall lose it??? Took a while to understand that, but once you look at the context of those 1st ones taken, and His disciples ask Him "Where, Lord?", and He answers, then it becomes more clear.

The Matthew 24:28 version of His answers uses the Greek word for "carcase" instead of "body". So His answer is definitely about being gathered to wherever the fowls are that feed on dead carcases. That is where the 1st ones taken are taken to. And thus those who seek to try and save their life, by being the 1st one taken, they instead lose their life. But those who lose their life (for Christ because of persecution) will preserve their life (eternal Life).

Thus Christ's faithful are to make a 'stand' for Him during and through the coming "great tribulation", even to the death!

That! is how we prepare for the end, and we are to include with it prayers and fasting.
 

Robert Gwin

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In what 'way' will it be horrible? You haven't been reading Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye fiction books have you?

Per Lord Jesus, the coming "great tribulation" is going to be a time of world peace, when all wars have stopped (Matthew 24:6). The opposite of a time of wars and rumors of wars is a time of peace. Apostle Paul showed this for the end also...

1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV


That "day of the Lord" is the final day... of this present world when Lord Jesus returns to gather His faithful Church. Paul here in 1 Thess.5 is actually pulling from the Old Testament prophets here about that day, like from the Book of Isaiah. That "day of the Lord" is that day of "sudden destruction" upon the wicked that shall happen on the day of Christ's return. The wicked will not escape it. But just prior to that 'day', it will be a time of world peace on earth, which is why the wicked and deceived will be saying that, "Peace and safety".

Daniel was given to prophesy of that future time of 'peace and safety' also, in Daniel 8:23-26, which is a parallel to the Revelation 13:4-8 events of the symbolic dragon's 42 month reign.

We were given specific warnings about a coming false Messiah for the end, in Jerusalem, playing Christ, with the whole world believing on him in place of God. This is why the whole world will be at peace, with all wars stopped. That false Messiah is going to have miraculous supernatural power over the earth which will cause the deceived to believe he is God (Revelation 13:11 forward; 2 Thessalonians 2).

Only Christ's faithful that heed His command to 'watch' will know that one is a fake, and to wait on Lord Jesus' return at the end of that tribulation. If one's Church is not warning of these things from God's Word, then they are preparing their congregations to be deceived away from Lord Jesus Christ. Take heed.

Forever said horrible, and I fully agree Davy. Perhaps you are overlooking Matt 24:22 and Luke 21:26. The mere fact that it is called tribulation should give you some insight on it. In fact Jesus himself said: (Matthew 24:21) . . .there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. . .

That leads me to believe it is not going to be a pretty picture sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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Yeah, I noticed that. But that's who He was pointing to, along with scattered Israelites among believing Gentiles that would make up His Church.
Perhaps if you define gentiles it may help. If you are thinking the literal meaning, then we disagree, if you are applying that name to them as spiritual gentiles, then I would fully agree. Those gentiles will be made up of people of all nations the same way the little flock is.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The great tribulation is horrible sir, the most horrible thing that man will ever have to go through honestly. I seriously doubt that any of us wants to go through it, yet we realize that for God's kingdom to come, it has to precede that coming as well. All of us Christians have prayed for, and continue to pray for God's Kingdom to come, and we fully realize that many of us will have to endure the tribulation for that to happen, but we also realize that the end results will be well worth it.

If you miss the rapture which you don't believe is real, there i s a very real possibility that when you have to go through the tribulation you will never truly accept the biblical Jesus!

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
King James Version

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


If I understand this verse correctly, once me and my brethren leave this earth at the rapture, it is very possible that all who heard and rejected the gospel of Jesus physical resurrection from the dead ones will be given a strong delusion by God!
 
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ReChoired

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If you miss the rapture which you don't believe is real, there i s a very real possibility that when you have to go through the tribulation you will never truly accept the biblical Jesus!

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
King James Version

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If I understand this verse correctly, once me and my brethren leave this earth at the rapture, it is very possible that all who heard and rejected the gospel of Jesus physical resurrection from the dead ones will be given a strong delusion by God!
Read the verses more carefully. It says those who do not believe the second advent as described will be given the strong delusion, as it is even today with some saying the resurrection is already past, some teaching the secret rapture nonsense, and left behind (2nd chance) foolishness and all manner of other error, like the WTS/JW error of being on earth for the 1,000 years.

Hab_3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,​

When Jesus comes the second time, it is the destruction of the living (physically) wicked humanity. Only satan remains alive (with his evil angels) on the broken planet.

The "Kingdom of God" (which includes, righteousness (Psalms 119:172), peace (Psalms 119:165) & joy (Psalms 16:11; Jude 1:24) (Romans 14:17) does not exist on earth during the 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-7; Isaiah 24:22; see also Psalms 37). Many have a misunderstanding of Daniel 2:44. In Daniel 2:34-35, there is seen a several phases or time events. In Daniel 2:34, there is seen the beginning of this:

"... a stone was cut out (of the mountain, vs 45; God's Heavenly Kingdom above) without hands (Mark 14:58; Colossians 2:11 (a stone was used to circumcise, and cut away; Exodus 4:25-26)), which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." (Daniel 2:34)​

This is the destruction of the kingdoms of this earth by the return of Jesus Christ in the second advent, the stone (Zechariah 3:9; Revelation 5:6; Matthew 21:44; 1 Peter 2:4, etc) cut out of the Mountain without hands, and the timing is given in Daniel 2:35, being the end of the "summer" (Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30) harvest and threshing (see Jeremiah 8:20, etc).

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; ..." (Daniel 2:35)​

Then there is a period of 1000 years of desolate earth (see scriptures below), followed by the total destruction of all the finally impenitent who ever lived at the 3rd Advent of Jesus Christ with New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven above, with all the saints:

"... and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:"​

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." (Revelation 20:11)​

After that event, then will God re-create the earth and heaven, and then, and only then, will the saints dwell upon the earth made new:

"... and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:35)​

Here are the texts of Revelation 20:1-7 cited:

Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 - And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​

Please notice, that in these texts [Revelation 20:1-7], there is no where written that either Jesus, or the “saints” (or “satan” for that matter), shall “reign upon the earth” for 1,000 years, but simply says [vss. 4,6] that Jesus and the saints reigned “a thousand years”. The location of this 1,000 reign is nowhere stated to be “upon the earth” in these, or any passages of scripture [KJB]. Revelation 20:1 refers to Jesus coming “down” from Heaven but not touching the sin polluted earth, which connects to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in its “descend from Heaven”. Revelation 20:6 speaks of the “first resurrection”, which is connected to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, in its “the dead in Christ shall rise first” and “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”, which ties into John 14:1-4. One should very carefully look for themselves. It also is very clearly written that “satan” himself was not reigning during this “thousand years”, but is “bound” and “shut … up” with a “seal” placed “upon him”.

The phrase “the day of the Lord” [Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Lamentations 2:22; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7,8,14,18, 2:2,3; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10], is a direct reference to the “thousand years” [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7, see also Isaiah 24:22, “many days”], which is the final “day”, the 7th day – the great Sabbath, of the great week “with the Lord” [2 Peter 3:8].

The second Advent of Jesus Christ, wherein the “saints” are “caught up together … in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20:1-6] is but the beginning of the “thousand years” or “the day of the Lord”, while the third Advent of Jesus Christ [Zechariah 14:1-21; Revelation 20:7-10] is the ending of the “thousand years” or “the day of the Lord”, after which the finally impenitent shall be utterly destroyed in the second death, and finally the “New Heavens” and the “New Earth” are recreated [Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1] which the “meek shall inherit”.

Revelation 19-22, is parallel to Isaiah 24, and so also connected to Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:26-32.

Isaiah 24 and Revelation 19-22 parallelism (short notes):

World Destroyed - Isaiah 24:1-20
High Ones on High - Isaiah 24:21
Kings of the Earth - Isaiah 24:21
Prisonsers in the Pit - Isaiah 24:22
Many Days - Isaiah 24:22
New Jeruslam/Zion - Isaiah 24:23
Reign Gloriously - Isaiah 24:23
Sun and Moon Ashamed - Isaiah 24:23
Remnant - Isaiah 4:3
Ancients - Isaiah 24:23

World Destroyed - Revelation 19:11-21; 16:18-21
Satan - Revelation 20:1-2
Kings - Revelation 19:19
Prison/Pit - Revelation 20:1-2
The Thousand Years - Revelation 20:1,2,3,4,5,6,7
New Jerusalem/Zion - Revelation 21:2
King of Kings - Revelation 19:11,16
No Need of Sun or Moon - Revelation 21:23
Remnant - Revelation 22:14
Heavenly Elders Council - Job 1-2; Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16,14:3, 19:4​

It also parallels to Psalms 37.

Armageddon, the gathering to war against the Lamb (and his body) - Psalms 37:14,12,35

The Day of the LORD, the final thousand years, beginning, middle and ending - Psalms 37:13

Final Destruction of the Wicked - Psalms 37:1,2,9a,10,20,22b,28b,34b,36,38

Heavens & Earth Made New, saints reign upon the earth made new, forever - Psalms 37:3,9b,11,18,22a,28b,29,34a,37​
 

ReChoired

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If you miss the rapture which you don't believe is real, there i s a very real possibility that when you have to go through the tribulation you will never truly accept the biblical Jesus!
When Jesus comes the second time, it is the destruction of the living (physically) wicked humanity. Only satan remains alive (with his evil angels) on the broken planet.

Revelation 20:4, is directly tied to Daniel 7:22 (in its 4 "time" portions; [1] "Until" (previous time, Daniel 7:21, 1,260 years of AD 538 - AD 1798, the Dark Ages to Reformation); [2] "the Ancient of days came", being October 22, 1844, the end of the 2,300 of Daniel 8:13-14,26, Revelation 9:13-15, 14:6-7,12, etc., [3] "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High", being the time period of the judgment that the saints go over the books of record in Heaven, judging the world and fallen angels (1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 20:4; Psalms 149:6); [4] "and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.", being at the end of the 1000 years that they had spent in Heaven, returning with Christ Jesus and New Jerusalem above to execute the judgment written (Psalms 149:7-9), with God, in the Great White Throne judgment. Afterwards God recreates the earth and heaven (Isaiah 66:22-23)), by language (Revelation 20:4 "judgment was given unto them", Daniel 7:22 "judgment was given to the saints of the most High", which again ties into Psalms 149).

Revelation 20, is also directly ties to Revelation 9, 11, & 17, by language, speaking of the "the bottomless pit" "key" (9 & 20), "the king" (9), "beast" (11 & 17), and "dragon" (20).

Revelation 20, is also tied directly to Leviticus 16 & 23 by event:

Leviticus 16:8,10,20 -- Revelation 20:1
Leviticus 16:21-22 -- Revelation 20:2-3​

The location of this “reign” of Jesus and the saints, for “a thousand years” is never said to be on the plague wracked, utterly sin polluted and totally cursed and devastated “earth”, wherein even the upper heaven [atmosphere] is burned away by the second Advent [Genesis 3:17, 5:29, 8:21; Isaiah 34:4; 2 Peter 3:10-12; Revelation 6:14; 11:19, 15:1,6,8, 16:9,17-21, 18:4,8 21:9, 22:18]. So likewise for the passages of “Isaiah 2, 11, 65; Amos 9; Zechariah 14”. Read prayerfully and carefully for oneself. Where then is the “thousand year” reign of Jesus and the saints to be? It is to be in Heaven, the “third” [2 Corinthians 12:2].

Notice Isaiah 2:4 in which it speaks of, “... they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” That is the earth “made new”, wherein it is said in Revelation 21:4, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” The earth is not “made new” until after the 1,000 years, not before.

Notice Isaiah 11:4-10, in which the complete destruction of the wicked takes place first (as in Revelation 20:9-10, 11-15), and then follows the statements about the New Heaven and New Earth, which comes after the 1,000 years, see Isaiah 11:9, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” See Isaiah 11:6-8 and compare to Isaiah 65:20-25, 66:22-23. See that Isaiah 66:16 and its events, the destruction of the wicked in entirety, come before those other events, which take place in the earth “made new”.

Notice Amos 9:14-15 in which the events, “... they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.”, and of the planting and building are in the earth “made new”, after the events of the destruction of the wicked in Amos 9:8, which does not take place until after the 1,000 years as Isaiah 24 and Revelation 20 (and other places) show.

Notice Zechariah 14 carefully, and see that this is not referring to the Second Advent (the beginning of the 1,000 years), wherein the “saints” are “caught up” to “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), as also John 14:3 says, “... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”, but refers to the Third Advent, wherein the Lord Jesus comes “down” and touches the sin polluted earth, along with the saints and New Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives, as in Revelation 20, at the ending of the 1,000 years, and thus metes out judgment, executing all the wicked, and recreating the heavens and earth. See Zechariah 14:12-13,21 in connection to Revelation 20:9-10,11-15.

The “reign upon the earth” comes after 1,000 years [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7], for the “saints” must be both resurrected and/or translated, glorified, and brought back to Heaven [John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc] at the Second Advent and First Great Resurrection, to “reign” in Heaven, for 1,000 years [Revelation 20:4,5a,6] going over the record books of the lost [1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9]:

[1] The “thousand years” reign “in Heaven” [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; “Paradise”, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with Christ Jesus [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and

[2] The “reign on earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts “forever and ever” [Revelation 5:10; “meek inherit earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].​

As for the word "bottomless pit", as found in the GNT TR of Revelation 9:1,2,11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:1, it is the Koine Greek "αβυσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], in GNT TR of Revelation 20:3, it is again "αβυσσον" [abusson, or abysson], which in the transliterated English is the word "abyss", which according to the first use in Genesis, means the "deep", being in "darkness", and "without form and void [empty of/having no life]", thus is associated with a dark chaotic wilderness/desert [water or earth], symbolic of death/no life.

According to the King James Concordance, this word, G12 "ἄβυσσος" [abussos] is found to be translated from the Koine Greek texts, 8 times in the New Testament, variously translated as:

Total Occurrences: 8

bottomless, 6

Revelation 9:1-2 (2),11, 17:8, 20:1,3

deep, 2

Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7.​

This very same word is also found to be utilized in the so-called LXX [Septuagint, really Origen's Hexapla] Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 LXX, "ἀβύσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], of which the King James [from the HOT, "תהום", tehom] reads "deep", Genesis 1:2, 7:11, 8:2; Deuteronomy 8:7, 33:13; Job 38:16,30, 41:32 (41:24); Psalms 33:7 (32:7), 71:20 (70:20), 71:21 (70:21), 78:15 (77:15), 106:9 (105:9), 107:26 (106:26), 135:6 (134:6); Proverbs 8:24; Isaiah 44:27, 51:10, 63:13; and in the apocryphal books/texts of (so-called LXX) Daniel 3:54; Wisdom 10:19; Sirach 24:5,29.

Here are those so-called LXX texts in full, with their English counterparts, and corresponding words highlighted in red, and please notice that in every case the "abyss" is always associated with the earth in a certain place, state or condition, even a deep and dark place, devoid of life, such as a grave [see Psalms 71:20], and also a dried up place, a desolate wilderness [see Psalms 106:9; Isaiah 63:13], or places of great deep basins [sea floor, etc], as like a bowl in which is much waters, called a 'sea' [not only an ocean, but also the laver of the sanctuary of Solomon is called this]:

After the earth is hit with the 7 last plagues, the wrath of God, and His fierce anger, and the massive earthquake and the tearing away of the first heaven [the atmosphere], and already having the other curses still upon it from the beginning [massive ocean, that vast water desert, from the global flood of Noah; ice poles, ice deserts/wastes, scorched earth, earthy and sandy deserts], this earth will have returned to a chaotic wilderness, filled with darkness, waters, earth and no life [except for Satan and his angels, the dragon and owls [unclean night birds of the air]], for 1,000 years, and after those "many days", then shall the wicked be visited in their prison, and the final resurrection of the wicked take place. It will in effect, have been brought back to its state/condition as seen in Genesis 1:2, during those 1,000 years, and thus the 'earth', is indeed the 'bottomless' 'pit', just as Isaiah (24) stated:

Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:4, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:2-17.
 

Davy

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Forever said horrible, and I fully agree Davy. Perhaps you are overlooking Matt 24:22 and Luke 21:26. The mere fact that it is called tribulation should give you some insight on it. In fact Jesus himself said: (Matthew 24:21) . . .there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. . .

That leads me to believe it is not going to be a pretty picture sir.

There's a period prior to the actual great tribulation time that Lord Jesus called the beginning of sorrows, which is not the end. It's that time that will be horrible; we're in it already. Hearing of wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, pestilences, earthquakes, etc., is all part of that horrible time of sorrows. But remember, Lord Jesus said as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, the end is not yet.

This means we have to do a bit of process of elimination reasoning about that Matthew 24:6 verse, like -- if the end is not while wars are going on, then what will the end be like? The opposite of wars is a time of peace. And that's the kind of time the very end (trib) will be like, a time of "Peace and safety", which is what the deceived will be saying (1 Thess.5).

So again, I caution, the very end of this world, i.e., the "great tribulation" time, will be a time of world peace, not war and chaos. It will be because the beast king with his ten kings (ten horns) will be in power over all... nations and peoples upon this earth (Revelation 13:4-8). The whole world is going to worship him as God. It'll be a chicken in every pot for those who are deceived into bowing to him as Christ.

This is why the time of sorrows just prior is the actual time of chaos. It's so the whole world will be looking for a savior to come fix the world's mess and bring peace on the earth. It's all in prep for worshiping that coming Antichrist in place of God. The idea of no flesh being saved isn't about all out war and chaos. It's about no soul being saved because of being deceived to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem. The setting up of the "abomination of desolation" is the turning point, as shown by Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:15.

Thus the great tribulation will be of 2 different types:

1. a literal physical tribulation upon those of us who remain faithful waiting on Lord Jesus' coming at the end of it.
2. a spiritual tribulation upon the deceived who won't be aware they've fallen away to worship a fake in place of Christ.

That is the reason why Lord Jesus said it will be a time unlike any other since the beginning of the world. It's because the false Messiah that is coming to play Christ will be the devil himself, in person, upon this earth, working those great signs and wonders that if it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. There has never, ever... been a time on earth like that since the beginning of this world, nor ever will be again.
 

Davy

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Perhaps if you define gentiles it may help. If you are thinking the literal meaning, then we disagree, if you are applying that name to them as spiritual gentiles, then I would fully agree. Those gentiles will be made up of people of all nations the same way the little flock is.

'ethnos', is how Paul in 2 Timothy 1:11 defined it, which means non-Israelite bloodline peoples.

In Romans 9, when Paul quoted from Hosea to believing Roman Gentiles, that represented a joining together, in final, of the believing seed of Israel with believers of the Gentile peoples. The Old Testament prophets made that distinction between the two groups in God's Plan of Salvation, and likewise does The New Testament Books. So Revelation 7 with the division of the 144,000 Israelites and the Gentiles of the "great multitude" is the same type of presentation, just in The New Testament.
 

Robert Gwin

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If you miss the rapture which you don't believe is real, there i s a very real possibility that when you have to go through the tribulation you will never truly accept the biblical Jesus!

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
King James Version

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


If I understand this verse correctly, once me and my brethren leave this earth at the rapture, it is very possible that all who heard and rejected the gospel of Jesus physical resurrection from the dead ones will be given a strong delusion by God!

We believe that the remainder of the anointed holy ones will meet the Lord in the air upon his return Ron 1 Thes 4:17. We believe there will be an innumerable number that will survive the tribulation and enter into the Kingdom of God when it comes. Do you?
 

Robert Gwin

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There's a period prior to the actual great tribulation time that Lord Jesus called the beginning of sorrows, which is not the end. It's that time that will be horrible; we're in it already. Hearing of wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, pestilences, earthquakes, etc., is all part of that horrible time of sorrows. But remember, Lord Jesus said as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, the end is not yet.

This means we have to do a bit of process of elimination reasoning about that Matthew 24:6 verse, like -- if the end is not while wars are going on, then what will the end be like? The opposite of wars is a time of peace. And that's the kind of time the very end (trib) will be like, a time of "Peace and safety", which is what the deceived will be saying (1 Thess.5).

So again, I caution, the very end of this world, i.e., the "great tribulation" time, will be a time of world peace, not war and chaos. It will be because the beast king with his ten kings (ten horns) will be in power over all... nations and peoples upon this earth (Revelation 13:4-8). The whole world is going to worship him as God. It'll be a chicken in every pot for those who are deceived into bowing to him as Christ.

This is why the time of sorrows just prior is the actual time of chaos. It's so the whole world will be looking for a savior to come fix the world's mess and bring peace on the earth. It's all in prep for worshiping that coming Antichrist in place of God. The idea of no flesh being saved isn't about all out war and chaos. It's about no soul being saved because of being deceived to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem. The setting up of the "abomination of desolation" is the turning point, as shown by Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:15.

Thus the great tribulation will be of 2 different types:

1. a literal physical tribulation upon those of us who remain faithful waiting on Lord Jesus' coming at the end of it.
2. a spiritual tribulation upon the deceived who won't be aware they've fallen away to worship a fake in place of Christ.

That is the reason why Lord Jesus said it will be a time unlike any other since the beginning of the world. It's because the false Messiah that is coming to play Christ will be the devil himself, in person, upon this earth, working those great signs and wonders that if it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. There has never, ever... been a time on earth like that since the beginning of this world, nor ever will be again.

Yes sir, we agree that we are in that time period, referred to as the last days in the Bible. There will be a time that comes that will appear peaceful as you are stating, matter of fact it is very significant in Bible prophecy, because we Christians will not be deceived by it, as we realize that will be the last straw before the return of Christ, which will bring destruction upon them.

I am not incorrect about the tribulation however, perhaps you even agree, but it is a timing issue that separates us. But at any rate, the tribulation will be the greatest that has ever occurred in human history, and will never again happen. It will be so severe that if Jesus did not return, no flesh would be saved as he personally said at Mat 24:22 when he was speaking of that tribulation. He clearly said on the account of the chosen ones, those days would be brought to their end. It is quite clear sir if you read the entire account, especially vs 21 and 22. I am glad you realize that we are in the last days, perhaps like me you might even believe we are in the very final stages of those days. Nice speaking with you Davy.