The great tribulation is rapidly approaching, survival depends on doing God's will Mat 7:21

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Robert Gwin

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'ethnos', is how Paul in 2 Timothy 1:11 defined it, which means non-Israelite bloodline peoples.

In Romans 9, when Paul quoted from Hosea to believing Roman Gentiles, that represented a joining together, in final, of the believing seed of Israel with believers of the Gentile peoples. The Old Testament prophets made that distinction between the two groups in God's Plan of Salvation, and likewise does The New Testament Books. So Revelation 7 with the division of the 144,000 Israelites and the Gentiles of the "great multitude" is the same type of presentation, just in The New Testament.

There are several similarities like that in the Bible Davy, another comparison of them was those attending the Passover on the last night of Jesus' life; the faithful 11 and Jesus as the Israel of God in the new covenant that go to heaven, and those millions outside that were observing the same event, just not in the covenant and did not drink the blood or eat the flesh of Jesus, who represent that great crowd who will inherit the earth. Yes sir, the Bible is full of contrasts, another famous one is the foreshadowing of Jehovah offering up His son, Abraham and Isaac.
 

Davy

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I am not incorrect about the tribulation however, perhaps you even agree, but it is a timing issue that separates us. But at any rate, the tribulation will be the greatest that has ever occurred in human history, and will never again happen. It will be so severe that if Jesus did not return, no flesh would be saved as he personally said at Mat 24:22 when he was speaking of that tribulation. He clearly said on the account of the chosen ones, those days would be brought to their end. It is quite clear sir if you read the entire account, especially vs 21 and 22. I am glad you realize that we are in the last days, perhaps like me you might even believe we are in the very final stages of those days. Nice speaking with you Davy.

That's where we apparently disagree, because what I see as the "great tribulation" is different depending on what one believes and who they follow in that time.

In the Matthew 24:23-26 verses, the context is about the coming of a pseudo-Christ (pseudochristos in the Greek). That false one is to work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive Christ's own very elect. It's that... event that is kicked off by the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem in false worship. So all those Matthew 24:15-28 verses are actually about the same time period and events.

Per Revelation 11 with God's two witnesses, they will be causing the beast system and its followers misery with the plagues they will be given power to do, during that 'end' period. And per the Revelation 9 chapter, the locusts in that time are only allowed to 'sting' those not sealed with God's seal for five months, but cannot kill them. So that's pointing that the only ones put to death in that time will be some of us who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come. It's showing the deceived will be partying it up, especially when the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., the devil) kills God's two witnesses there in Jerusalem.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Read the verses more carefully. It says those who do not believe the second advent as described will be given the strong delusion, as it is even today with some saying the resurrection is already past, some teaching the secret rapture nonsense, and left behind (2nd chance) foolishness and all manner of other error, like the WTS/JW error of being on earth for the 1,000 years.

Hab_3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,​

When Jesus comes the second time, it is the destruction of the living (physically) wicked humanity. Only satan remains alive (with his evil angels) on the broken planet.

The "Kingdom of God" (which includes, righteousness (Psalms 119:172), peace (Psalms 119:165) & joy (Psalms 16:11; Jude 1:24) (Romans 14:17) does not exist on earth during the 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-7; Isaiah 24:22; see also Psalms 37). Many have a misunderstanding of Daniel 2:44. In Daniel 2:34-35, there is seen a several phases or time events. In Daniel 2:34, there is seen the beginning of this:

"... a stone was cut out (of the mountain, vs 45; God's Heavenly Kingdom above) without hands (Mark 14:58; Colossians 2:11 (a stone was used to circumcise, and cut away; Exodus 4:25-26)), which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." (Daniel 2:34)​

This is the destruction of the kingdoms of this earth by the return of Jesus Christ in the second advent, the stone (Zechariah 3:9; Revelation 5:6; Matthew 21:44; 1 Peter 2:4, etc) cut out of the Mountain without hands, and the timing is given in Daniel 2:35, being the end of the "summer" (Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30) harvest and threshing (see Jeremiah 8:20, etc).

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; ..." (Daniel 2:35)​

Then there is a period of 1000 years of desolate earth (see scriptures below), followed by the total destruction of all the finally impenitent who ever lived at the 3rd Advent of Jesus Christ with New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven above, with all the saints:

"... and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:"​

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." (Revelation 20:11)​

After that event, then will God re-create the earth and heaven, and then, and only then, will the saints dwell upon the earth made new:

"... and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:35)​

Here are the texts of Revelation 20:1-7 cited:

Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 - And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​



The phrase “the day of the Lord” [Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Lamentations 2:22; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7,8,14,18, 2:2,3; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10], is a direct reference to the “thousand years” [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7, see also Isaiah 24:22, “many days”], which is the final “day”, the 7th day – the great Sabbath, of the great week “with the Lord” [2 Peter 3:8].


Well your reply is too cumbersome to deal with all of it. I will say you have falsely conflated verses to deny the millenial kingdom.

As for Satan being left on the planet for the thousand years? NO!

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is abyssed for the thousand years!

There is no 3rd Advent! Unless you consider the new Jeruslame coming down from heaven an advent. Jesus reigns on the earth for 1,000 years.

As for your hypothesis that Thess. deals with those who reject teh second advent? This is wrong also:

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

They received not the truth of Jesus. to limit it to just a second advent is faulty exegesis.

REv. 20:11 is for the eternal order- not the thousand years!

The millenial kingdom is the fulffilment of prophecy where God said He would give Israel the kingdom. I can give you loads of verses that show th ekingdom is on an almost completely resotred earth with justr few places left desolate as a sign.

Well there is no secret rapture- millions will disappear across the globe and th eworld will know an event took place.

You need to remember that jesus returns to earth in REv. 19- defeats theantichrist at Petra, marches to Jerusalem and splitsw th emount of olives, judges the sheep and goats, goats sent to place of torments, sheep enter the kingdom on earth!

REv. 20 gives us how long this kingdom lasts on earth! You have to imply that after Jesus returns to earth, He goes back to heaven to return again! There is no biblical warrant for that except through enormous allegorical reinterpreting Scripture.

Onjy revelation gives us the time frame of the Lords reign on earth. Everywhere else it simply shows He returns and reigns and sits on Davids throne! The tribulation saints live and reign with Jesus for 1,000 years on earth , notin heaven.
 

Ronald Nolette

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When Jesus comes the second time, it is the destruction of the living (physically) wicked humanity. Only satan remains alive (with his evil angels) on the broken planet.

Revelation 20:4, is directly tied to Daniel 7:22 (in its 4 "time" portions; [1] "Until" (previous time, Daniel 7:21, 1,260 years of AD 538 - AD 1798, the Dark Ages to Reformation); [2] "the Ancient of days came", being October 22, 1844, the end of the 2,300 of Daniel 8:13-14,26, Revelation 9:13-15, 14:6-7,12, etc., [3] "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High", being the time period of the judgment that the saints go over the books of record in Heaven, judging the world and fallen angels (1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 20:4; Psalms 149:6); [4] "and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.", being at the end of the 1000 years that they had spent in Heaven, returning with Christ Jesus and New Jerusalem above to execute the judgment written (Psalms 149:7-9), with God, in the Great White Throne judgment. Afterwards God recreates the earth and heaven (Isaiah 66:22-23)), by language (Revelation 20:4 "judgment was given unto them", Daniel 7:22 "judgment was given to the saints of the most High", which again ties into Psalms 149).

Revelation 20, is also directly ties to Revelation 9, 11, & 17, by language, speaking of the "the bottomless pit" "key" (9 & 20), "the king" (9), "beast" (11 & 17), and "dragon" (20).

Revelation 20, is also tied directly to Leviticus 16 & 23 by event:

Leviticus 16:8,10,20 -- Revelation 20:1
Leviticus 16:21-22 -- Revelation 20:2-3​

The location of this “reign” of Jesus and the saints, for “a thousand years” is never said to be on the plague wracked, utterly sin polluted and totally cursed and devastated “earth”, wherein even the upper heaven [atmosphere] is burned away by the second Advent [Genesis 3:17, 5:29, 8:21; Isaiah 34:4; 2 Peter 3:10-12; Revelation 6:14; 11:19, 15:1,6,8, 16:9,17-21, 18:4,8 21:9, 22:18]. So likewise for the passages of “Isaiah 2, 11, 65; Amos 9; Zechariah 14”. Read prayerfully and carefully for oneself. Where then is the “thousand year” reign of Jesus and the saints to be? It is to be in Heaven, the “third” [2 Corinthians 12:2].

Notice Isaiah 2:4 in which it speaks of, “... they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” That is the earth “made new”, wherein it is said in Revelation 21:4, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” The earth is not “made new” until after the 1,000 years, not before.

Notice Isaiah 11:4-10, in which the complete destruction of the wicked takes place first (as in Revelation 20:9-10, 11-15), and then follows the statements about the New Heaven and New Earth, which comes after the 1,000 years, see Isaiah 11:9, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” See Isaiah 11:6-8 and compare to Isaiah 65:20-25, 66:22-23. See that Isaiah 66:16 and its events, the destruction of the wicked in entirety, come before those other events, which take place in the earth “made new”.

Notice Amos 9:14-15 in which the events, “... they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.”, and of the planting and building are in the earth “made new”, after the events of the destruction of the wicked in Amos 9:8, which does not take place until after the 1,000 years as Isaiah 24 and Revelation 20 (and other places) show.

Notice Zechariah 14 carefully, and see that this is not referring to the Second Advent (the beginning of the 1,000 years), wherein the “saints” are “caught up” to “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), as also John 14:3 says, “... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”, but refers to the Third Advent, wherein the Lord Jesus comes “down” and touches the sin polluted earth, along with the saints and New Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives, as in Revelation 20, at the ending of the 1,000 years, and thus metes out judgment, executing all the wicked, and recreating the heavens and earth. See Zechariah 14:12-13,21 in connection to Revelation 20:9-10,11-15.

The “reign upon the earth” comes after 1,000 years [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7], for the “saints” must be both resurrected and/or translated, glorified, and brought back to Heaven [John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc] at the Second Advent and First Great Resurrection, to “reign” in Heaven, for 1,000 years [Revelation 20:4,5a,6] going over the record books of the lost [1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9]:

[1] The “thousand years” reign “in Heaven” [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; “Paradise”, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with Christ Jesus [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and

[2] The “reign on earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts “forever and ever” [Revelation 5:10; “meek inherit earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].​

As for the word "bottomless pit", as found in the GNT TR of Revelation 9:1,2,11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:1, it is the Koine Greek "αβυσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], in GNT TR of Revelation 20:3, it is again "αβυσσον" [abusson, or abysson], which in the transliterated English is the word "abyss", which according to the first use in Genesis, means the "deep", being in "darkness", and "without form and void [empty of/having no life]", thus is associated with a dark chaotic wilderness/desert [water or earth], symbolic of death/no life.

According to the King James Concordance, this word, G12 "ἄβυσσος" [abussos] is found to be translated from the Koine Greek texts, 8 times in the New Testament, variously translated as:

Total Occurrences: 8

bottomless, 6

Revelation 9:1-2 (2),11, 17:8, 20:1,3

deep, 2

Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7.​

This very same word is also found to be utilized in the so-called LXX [Septuagint, really Origen's Hexapla] Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 LXX, "ἀβύσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], of which the King James [from the HOT, "תהום", tehom] reads "deep", Genesis 1:2, 7:11, 8:2; Deuteronomy 8:7, 33:13; Job 38:16,30, 41:32 (41:24); Psalms 33:7 (32:7), 71:20 (70:20), 71:21 (70:21), 78:15 (77:15), 106:9 (105:9), 107:26 (106:26), 135:6 (134:6); Proverbs 8:24; Isaiah 44:27, 51:10, 63:13; and in the apocryphal books/texts of (so-called LXX) Daniel 3:54; Wisdom 10:19; Sirach 24:5,29.

Here are those so-called LXX texts in full, with their English counterparts, and corresponding words highlighted in red, and please notice that in every case the "abyss" is always associated with the earth in a certain place, state or condition, even a deep and dark place, devoid of life, such as a grave [see Psalms 71:20], and also a dried up place, a desolate wilderness [see Psalms 106:9; Isaiah 63:13], or places of great deep basins [sea floor, etc], as like a bowl in which is much waters, called a 'sea' [not only an ocean, but also the laver of the sanctuary of Solomon is called this]:

After the earth is hit with the 7 last plagues, the wrath of God, and His fierce anger, and the massive earthquake and the tearing away of the first heaven [the atmosphere], and already having the other curses still upon it from the beginning [massive ocean, that vast water desert, from the global flood of Noah; ice poles, ice deserts/wastes, scorched earth, earthy and sandy deserts], this earth will have returned to a chaotic wilderness, filled with darkness, waters, earth and no life [except for Satan and his angels, the dragon and owls [unclean night birds of the air]], for 1,000 years, and after those "many days", then shall the wicked be visited in their prison, and the final resurrection of the wicked take place. It will in effect, have been brought back to its state/condition as seen in Genesis 1:2, during those 1,000 years, and thus the 'earth', is indeed the 'bottomless' 'pit', just as Isaiah (24) stated:

Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:4, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:2-17.


So if we are to listen to you , Jesus returns, wars with the armies of the antichrist, takes the tribulation saints to heaven and they reign with him for 1,000 years, then jesus returns again to fight again. WOW
 

Ronald Nolette

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We believe that the remainder of the anointed holy ones will meet the Lord in the air upon his return Ron 1 Thes 4:17. We believe there will be an innumerable number that will survive the tribulation and enter into the Kingdom of God when it comes. Do you?

but you man made organization until 1930 (Judge Rutherfords book Prohecy, a yellow cover) taught Jesus returned in 1874, and since then have taught Jesus returned in 1914. So those "anointed ones" as the Watchtower calls them were either caught up in 1874 or 1914 so there are no more anointed ones left!

Yes the "anointed ones" are the body of Christ which is composed of believers within all sects of Christendom who are trustin in the death and physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus alone for their salvation. They will be caught up. Then comes the time when believers are known by me as "tribulation saints". They are th eones that will gain entrance to the 1,000 year kingdom ruled by Jesus.
 

ReChoired

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So if we are to listen to you , Jesus returns, wars with the armies of the antichrist, takes the tribulation saints to heaven and they reign with him for 1,000 years, then jesus returns again to fight again. WOW
Two battles are as one, spread out.

'Armageddon' (wicked alive at Jesus 2nd advent) leads to the greater 'Gog and Magog' (all the wicked who ever lived since Cain; 3rd Advent).
 

ReChoired

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Jesus reigns on the earth for 1,000 years.
As I gave, that is not possible:

"After the earth is hit with the 7 last plagues, the wrath of God, and His fierce anger, and the massive earthquake and the tearing away of the first heaven [the atmosphere], and already having the other curses still upon it from the beginning [massive ocean, that vast water desert, from the global flood of Noah; ice poles, ice deserts/wastes, scorched earth, earthy and sandy deserts], this earth will have returned to a chaotic wilderness, filled with darkness, waters, earth and no life [except for Satan and his angels, the dragon and owls [unclean night birds of the air]], for 1,000 years, and after those "many days", then shall the wicked be visited in their prison, and the final resurrection of the wicked take place. It will in effect, have been brought back to its state/condition as seen in Genesis 1:2, during those 1,000 years, and thus the 'earth', is indeed the 'bottomless' 'pit', just as Isaiah (24) stated:

Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:4, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:2-17."​

I do desire people read my references, which are not 'me', but God's word.
 

ReChoired

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As for Satan being left on the planet for the thousand years? NO!

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is abyssed for the thousand years!
As I showed, the earth itself is that 'abyss', having been returned to such a state by the 7 last plagues, great earthquake, the heaven being shredded, population being reduced to nothing, etc.

"As for the word "bottomless pit", as found in the GNT TR of Revelation 9:1,2,11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:1, it is the Koine Greek "αβυσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], in GNT TR of Revelation 20:3, it is again "αβυσσον" [abusson, or abysson], which in the transliterated English is the word "abyss", which according to the first use in Genesis, means the "deep", being in "darkness", and "without form and void [empty of/having no life]", thus is associated with a dark chaotic wilderness/desert [water or earth], symbolic of death/no life.

According to the King James Concordance, this word, G12 "ἄβυσσος" [abussos] is found to be translated from the Koine Greek texts, 8 times in the New Testament, variously translated as:

Total Occurrences: 8

bottomless, 6

Revelation 9:1-2 (2),11, 17:8, 20:1,3

deep, 2

Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7.

This very same word is also found to be utilized in the so-called LXX [Septuagint, really Origen's Hexapla] Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 LXX, "ἀβύσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], of which the King James [from the HOT, "תהום", tehom] reads "deep", Genesis 1:2, 7:11, 8:2; Deuteronomy 8:7, 33:13; Job 38:16,30, 41:32 (41:24); Psalms 33:7 (32:7), 71:20 (70:20), 71:21 (70:21), 78:15 (77:15), 106:9 (105:9), 107:26 (106:26), 135:6 (134:6); Proverbs 8:24; Isaiah 44:27, 51:10, 63:13; and in the apocryphal books/texts of (so-called LXX) Daniel 3:54; Wisdom 10:19; Sirach 24:5,29."​
 

Robert Gwin

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That's where we apparently disagree, because what I see as the "great tribulation" is different depending on what one believes and who they follow in that time.

In the Matthew 24:23-26 verses, the context is about the coming of a pseudo-Christ (pseudochristos in the Greek). That false one is to work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive Christ's own very elect. It's that... event that is kicked off by the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem in false worship. So all those Matthew 24:15-28 verses are actually about the same time period and events.

Per Revelation 11 with God's two witnesses, they will be causing the beast system and its followers misery with the plagues they will be given power to do, during that 'end' period. And per the Revelation 9 chapter, the locusts in that time are only allowed to 'sting' those not sealed with God's seal for five months, but cannot kill them. So that's pointing that the only ones put to death in that time will be some of us who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come. It's showing the deceived will be partying it up, especially when the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., the devil) kills God's two witnesses there in Jerusalem.

Thank you for your input Davy.
 

Robert Gwin

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but you man made organization until 1930 (Judge Rutherfords book Prohecy, a yellow cover) taught Jesus returned in 1874, and since then have taught Jesus returned in 1914. So those "anointed ones" as the Watchtower calls them were either caught up in 1874 or 1914 so there are no more anointed ones left!

Yes the "anointed ones" are the body of Christ which is composed of believers within all sects of Christendom who are trustin in the death and physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus alone for their salvation. They will be caught up. Then comes the time when believers are known by me as "tribulation saints". They are th eones that will gain entrance to the 1,000 year kingdom ruled by Jesus.

I was not around then Ron, I am not sure about that. What I do know is that in 1879 in print, we believed that Jesus' presence that he gave signs for in Mat 24 would occur in 1914. I believe that happened sir. We did think at the time that the anointed ones would meet the Lord in the air at that time, however that was misunderstood. We now believe that will happen at the end of the tribulation when Jesus ends the last days, and removes the wicked. We agree about the anointed ones Rev 5:9,10
 

Ronald Nolette

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Two battles are as one, spread out.

'Armageddon' (wicked alive at Jesus 2nd advent) leads to the greater 'Gog and Magog' (all the wicked who ever lived since Cain; 3rd Advent).

those battles in REvelation are spearated by 1,000 years! Trying to make them one is disingenuous at best.

Now you are saying that Jesus' undeclared third advent will be with all the wicked resurrected from the place of torments and living on earth?
 

Ronald Nolette

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I was not around then Ron, I am not sure about that. What I do know is that in 1879 in print, we believed that Jesus' presence that he gave signs for in Mat 24 would occur in 1914. I believe that happened sir. We did think at the time that the anointed ones would meet the Lord in the air at that time, however that was misunderstood. We now believe that will happen at the end of the tribulation when Jesus ends the last days, and removes the wicked. We agree about the anointed ones Rev 5:9,10


Well they are easily found and discovered if one wishes to look. In 1879 the Watchtower did not exist. It was
Russell and the INTNL. bible Students. He predicted it but it was never mentioned again until 1930 for it was in print that 1874 was the year.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I was not around then Ron, I am not sure about that. What I do know is that in 1879 in print, we believed that Jesus' presence that he gave signs for in Mat 24 would occur in 1914. I believe that happened sir. We did think at the time that the anointed ones would meet the Lord in the air at that time, however that was misunderstood. We now believe that will happen at the end of the tribulation when Jesus ends the last days, and removes the wicked. We agree about the anointed ones Rev 5:9,10

“THE SCRIPTURES SHOW” JESUS RETURNED IN 1874 From 1876 Charles T Russell (who founded the Watchtower Society-the publishing/legal channel of the Jehovah’s Witness sect) promoted 1874 as the date for Christ’s return and the start of Christ’s “invisible presence”. That Christ returned in 1874 was official doctrine until 1930.

Teh 144,000 are Jews not Watchtower followers. You only get that by reinterpreting the Scriptures. Why do you think that God would go into such detail describing the 144,000 if ti was all a metaphor that needed extra biblical interpretation as the Watchtower does?
 

Ronald Nolette

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As I gave, that is not possible:

"After the earth is hit with the 7 last plagues, the wrath of God, and His fierce anger, and the massive earthquake and the tearing away of the first heaven [the atmosphere], and already having the other curses still upon it from the beginning [massive ocean, that vast water desert, from the global flood of Noah; ice poles, ice deserts/wastes, scorched earth, earthy and sandy deserts], this earth will have returned to a chaotic wilderness, filled with darkness, waters, earth and no life [except for Satan and his angels, the dragon and owls [unclean night birds of the air]], for 1,000 years, and after those "many days", then shall the wicked be visited in their prison, and the final resurrection of the wicked take place. It will in effect, have been brought back to its state/condition as seen in Genesis 1:2, during those 1,000 years, and thus the 'earth', is indeed the 'bottomless' 'pit', just as Isaiah (24) stated:

Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:4, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:2-17."​

I do desire people read my references, which are not 'me', but God's word.


Well to you it is not possible, but it is biblical. The old testament is loaded with many many passafges describing life in the Millenial Kingdom. Once again the only new thing that teh NT gives concerning that kingdom is the length of time it will be. As it is the fulffilment of Gpds immutable promises to Israel for their kingdom, It is to be expected not be spoken of in the NT. If you wish I can give you a detailed list of verses and what they describe as life in the kingdom.

One is in Isaiah where a person who is 100 years old will be considered a child! And that the people who entered the kingdom will give birth and repopulate the eareth, that their offspring will have till their 100th birthday to become a believer and if they do not- they will be killed by Jesus! As it say8s He will rule with a rod of iron and punish evil immediately.
 

Ronald Nolette

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As I showed, the earth itself is that 'abyss', having been returned to such a state by the 7 last plagues, great earthquake, the heaven being shredded, population being reduced to nothing, etc.

"As for the word "bottomless pit", as found in the GNT TR of Revelation 9:1,2,11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:1, it is the Koine Greek "αβυσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], in GNT TR of Revelation 20:3, it is again "αβυσσον" [abusson, or abysson], which in the transliterated English is the word "abyss", which according to the first use in Genesis, means the "deep", being in "darkness", and "without form and void [empty of/having no life]", thus is associated with a dark chaotic wilderness/desert [water or earth], symbolic of death/no life.

According to the King James Concordance, this word, G12 "ἄβυσσος" [abussos] is found to be translated from the Koine Greek texts, 8 times in the New Testament, variously translated as:

Total Occurrences: 8

bottomless, 6

Revelation 9:1-2 (2),11, 17:8, 20:1,3

deep, 2

Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7.

This very same word is also found to be utilized in the so-called LXX [Septuagint, really Origen's Hexapla] Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 LXX, "ἀβύσσου" [abussou, or abyssou], of which the King James [from the HOT, "תהום", tehom] reads "deep", Genesis 1:2, 7:11, 8:2; Deuteronomy 8:7, 33:13; Job 38:16,30, 41:32 (41:24); Psalms 33:7 (32:7), 71:20 (70:20), 71:21 (70:21), 78:15 (77:15), 106:9 (105:9), 107:26 (106:26), 135:6 (134:6); Proverbs 8:24; Isaiah 44:27, 51:10, 63:13; and in the apocryphal books/texts of (so-called LXX) Daniel 3:54; Wisdom 10:19; Sirach 24:5,29."​


Well you showed that the earth is that bottomless pit from opinion and not exegesis. And translating is nice- it shows how it was used. But you misread deep as meaning the surrface of the earth! I can't think of one passage where deep is used of the land mass of the eaerth! The depths of the unformed earth, the depths of the formed oceans, the bottomless pit where Satan will be cast i nto(no where does it say his fallen angels are cast with him into that abyss). You do too much speculating and philosophizing which leads you to form faulty conclusions over the simple understanding of Scripture.
 

ReChoired

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those battles in REvelation are spearated by 1,000 years! Trying to make them one is disingenuous at best. ...
Yes, it's why I said this:

"Two battles are as one, spread out.

'Armageddon' (wicked alive at Jesus 2nd advent) leads to the greater 'Gog and Magog' (all the wicked who ever lived since Cain; 3rd Advent)."

Did you see the "two", "are as one"?

Armageddon is the final battle, and it begins with the battle of all the wicked presently living on this earth just before the 2nd Advent of Jesus, which culminates therein. All the rebellious humanity will be "slain by the brightness of his coming" (Habakkuk 3:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:8). All their thought processes stop at that moment of death (Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:6), and will resume from that last thought they had just before death when they are resurrected 1,000 years later (Revelation 20:5a,8-9) to continue to battle, Gog and Magog, which are all the wicked nations who ever lived from the time of Cain. Armageddon is still ongoing in that way, but now includes all those rebellious nations who ever lived (Gog and Magog) in it's final phase, and satan goes to deceive them all one last time to do continue their assault upon all that is of God. Is there a thousand years between the 2nd and 3rd Advents? Yes. I gave those verses.
 

ReChoired

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Well to you it is not possible, but it is biblical. The old testament is loaded with many many passafges describing life in the Millenial Kingdom. Once again the only new thing that teh NT gives concerning that kingdom is the length of time it will be. As it is the fulffilment of Gpds immutable promises to Israel for their kingdom, It is to be expected not be spoken of in the NT. If you wish I can give you a detailed list of verses and what they describe as life in the kingdom.

One is in Isaiah where a person who is 100 years old will be considered a child! And that the people who entered the kingdom will give birth and repopulate the eareth, that their offspring will have till their 100th birthday to become a believer and if they do not- they will be killed by Jesus! As it say8s He will rule with a rod of iron and punish evil immediately.
I provided the verses which show you in error. Read them, in context:

Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:4, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:2-17.

Did you read them?

As for Isaiah 65:20, it is not referring to physical death. It is referring to maturity, of childhood passing to adult hood, at 100 years, rather than what we currently experience of around 18-21, and as for the sinner, they are still yet dead and accursed in the second death, not actually living (gone for ever), even after 100 years later. Consider:

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

[Context: Isaiah 65:17 KJB - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.]​

Shall we not see how the text begins with:

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days", in comparison to the latter part of the text?, "the child shall die an hundred years old". These two together speak of a childhood that lasts 100 years, before becoming an adult.

The Bible [KJB] in several places speaks of "the days of thy youth", "days of his youth", "yet a youth", "but a youth" which ceases at manhood, for the "days of youth [as a child]" are not endless, but have a set time, for a period of growth [thus as Ecclesiastes says, a "time to die" [Ecclesiastes 3:2 KJB]], for instance:

Psalms 144:12 KJB - That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:​

In further context, we read:

Isaiah 65:22 KJB - They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.​

The children in the New Heavens and New Earth do not stay youth forever, but grow up, and thus the youth dies, is "passed away", ceases to be youth, and is now adult, thus the phrase of 'passing' into adulthood:

Malachi 4:2 KJB - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.​

Paul says something similar:

1 Corinthians 13:11 KJB - When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
As for the accursed sinner, they are still dead (2nd death) then, for the contempt is upon them, not by them:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
We do this still to this day, with people like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc, who when their names are mentioned, or thought upon, are derided, known as evil wicked persons, infamous, yet not actually living, though they have been dead some time. It will be written against them in God's book forever.

We can look at any text you like. I will show you by God's grace.
 

ReChoired

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Well you showed that the earth is that bottomless pit from opinion and not exegesis. And translating is nice- it shows how it was used. But you misread deep as meaning the surrface of the earth! I can't think of one passage where deep is used of the land mass of the eaerth! The depths of the unformed earth, the depths of the formed oceans, the bottomless pit where Satan will be cast i nto(no where does it say his fallen angels are cast with him into that abyss). You do too much speculating and philosophizing which leads you to form faulty conclusions over the simple understanding of Scripture.

Read:

Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Mar 5:10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Mar 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Luk 8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
Luk 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

Luk 8:31 και παρεκαλουν αυτον ινα μη επιταξη αυτοις εις την αβυσσον απελθειν​

Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
Luk 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.​

Where is the "abysson" (Luke 8:31) in these texts? a wilderness with no life, and yet the pigs all perished in a watery grave, on the earth, even near the surface of the waters, which is still above the earth mass beneath? Remember, they asked to not be sent "out of the country", which means they were still very much in that "country", yet not going into the "wilderness" where there were no humans to tempt.

Paul uses the word to mean a place with no life, or the grave (which is a pit) of darkness:

Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
The earth during the 1000 years will look just like that. No life, as the texts I gave you show:

Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:4, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:2-17.

All the wicked (humanity) will have been slain, and the righteous left alive and caught up to Heaven and return to place prepared by Jesus for us for that time, until such time as we come back.
 
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Davy

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those battles in REvelation are spearated by 1,000 years! Trying to make them one is disingenuous at best.

Now you are saying that Jesus' undeclared third advent will be with all the wicked resurrected from the place of torments and living on earth?

What 3rd advent? There's only 2 comings of Lord Jesus written of in God's Word.