Daniel 2 and Nebu's vision of the statue

revturmoil · Mar 1, 2011

Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the great statue is what Protestant's quote as proof that Rome is the origin of the beast(s).

The reformers were convinced. Rome persecuted Christian's and Jew's, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and persecuted people for defecting from the faith. So to them, it was a given. Rome (RRE) would in the latter days emerge as the endtime beasts of Revelation.

In Daniel 2, Babylon is the head of gold in Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the great statue.

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

The only thing said about the second kingdon is that it's inferior to Babylon. What kingdom was inferior to Babylon?
Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not!

The word inferior in Daniel 2:39 is #0772 "arah" which means earth, world, ground and is the only place the word inferior is translated land. So if inferior means land, that rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the second Empire. The arms of silver can't be Medo-Persia since that Empire was about three times the size of Babylon. It wasn't 'land inferior' to Babylon.
The Median empire was not only shortlived but it was also smaller making it the inferior kingdom.

In both Greek and Hebrew inferior means,
to make less,
inferior,
to fall short,
below

The word kingdom in 2:39 not only means a kingdom but a realm of territory. Since obtaining territory is one of the main objectives of war, and since the word inferior/land is the only word used to describe that kingdom, my logical conclusion is that it is a kingdom who's land is smaller than, lower, less than, or inferior to Babylon...just as all the words imply.

In Isaiah 13, God say's He would stir up the Mede's against Babylon. Not the Persian's!

Daniel 5 quotes Darius the Mede as the one who "took" Babylon at the age of 62.

Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom.

I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:19-21
And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

The higher horn that came up last is the Persian Empire. The other horn, the one that was not as high (smaller) that came up first is the Medes. This explains that the Mede's are the smaller kingdom that emerged first...the inferior kingdom of Daniel 2.

Both secularist and many Protestant's believe Cyrus the Persian conquered Babylon but scriptures say that Darius the Mede invaded and conquered Babylon. If they were to agree with Daniel 5:31 that Darius the Mede's took Babylon at age 64, that would blow the revived Roman empire theory right out of the water!

The Medes were superior warriors compared to the Persian's but the Persian's were better engineers and nation builders than the Mede's. The Median kingdom occupied Babylon for only a few years (4) before the Persian's who were already confederate with them combined their efforts under Cyrus the Persian into what became the Ram or the Persian empire who is the third kingdom of brass that was conquered by Greece.

The fourth kingdom, symbolized by the legs of iron (Greece) and toes mingled with "iron and clay", doesn't come from Rome as most Protestant's teach but from the Grecian Empire. The Grecian Empire didn't cover Rome or Europe as it was a Mid-East Empire just like the others depicted in the statue. Rome was an European Empire and is excluded as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2. Rome cannot be the origin of the two and ten horned beast. (antichrist and false prophet)

The word mixed used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab" meaning mixed and it denotes an Arabian. (Gesenius)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6151&t=KJV

Why would God use this word to describe a Roman?!

Daniel 2:41-43
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The ten toes mingled with iron and clay are a description of the final kingdom that will bring us to Armageddon and none other than the Arabs. Protestant's would like you to believe these toes represent the European Union. How can that be when mingled is 'arab' and verses 41-43 say the kingdom will be divided and not cleave to one another and mixed with the seed of men? That's not true of Rome or the EU but is certainly true of Arab Islamic countries. Rome and the EU are a peaceful unified coalition of nations with strong alliances!" Arab /Muslim countries are a mixture of many tribes and clans and have fragile alliances. The've had problems molding together their ethnic, religious, and cultures differences. Their history and the scriptures prove they are divided, intermarried, mixed with the seed of men, and have not cleaved to one another.

Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, (Hagar) I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

Ishmael was born and for 13 years Abraham thought Ishmael's birth had fulfilled God's promise that Ishmael would become the father of many nations which is todays today's Arab world - the Arabs are an Ishmaelite race.
Ishmael's legacy is one of envy and rivalry. We see the causes and effects of this domestic rivalry today in the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam as well as the Arab-Israeli conflict.
The Ismaelites were known for their wandering, lawlessness, and freebooting lifestyle and they haven't changed much as we see this today in their cultures. Ishmael died at the age of 137 (Genesis 25:17) and just as God had promised, his 12 sons grew into "a great nation." Ishmael is clearly the forefather of the Arab world. The Arab people are a mixture of intermarried tribes and clans. Today the Arab's are destined to play a significant role in the End-times.

Being divided, partly strong and partly broken, not cleaved to one another, mixed with the seed of men, is a very good description of the Arab's and Muslim's. This can't be said about Rome or the EU. They aren't a broken or fragile union and they have strong alliances. Ironically, most of the unrest in the EU comes from the rising Muslim population.

History also proves that the Roman Empire was more unified than the Grecian Empire.

The Arab's have mixed, crossed, and broken up into hundreds if not thousands of different tribes scattered across the entire Mid-East including northern Africa. The two major sects of Islam have also divided themselves into several different sub-divisions. Arab Muslim's have also subdued nearly all religions in the region. The toes of iron could be symbolic of the Suuni's, and the clay could be symbolic of the Shia's.
There are several hundred different Arab tribes in Iraq alone and about 250 in Northern Africa. The iron and clay better symbolize the intermarriages of Arab/Islamic cultures than Rome.

Daniel 2:40-43. NLT

Following that kingdom, there will be a fourth great kingdom, as strong as iron. That kingdom will smash and crush all previous empires, just as iron smashes and crushes everything it strikes. The feet and toes you saw that were a combination of iron and clay show that this kingdom will be divided. Some parts of it will be strong as iron, and others as weak as clay. This mixture of iron and clay shows that these kingdoms will try to strenghten themselves by forming alliances with each other through intermarriage. But this will not succeed, just as iron and clay do not mix.

The word "Arab" is probably an alteration of the word "crossed" and supports what the scriptures are saying about the iron and clay.

The toes mingled with iron and clay as well as the beast with seven heads and ten horns symbolically represent the coming ten nation Islamic empire of the beast which will be a "united" Sunni and Shia Arab/Islamic Middle-East.

The ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7 and 8 who takes his stand against the Prince of princes comes out of Alexander’s splintered kingdom and no where else. And the ‘king of the north" in Daniel 11 and 12, who exalts himself in the time of the end, comes out of the root of Antiochus, again a fragment of Alexander’s empire. Why then do so many prophecy experts continue to tell us that Rome is somehow the origin of the beast!?

It is my belief, and the belief of many others, that the man of sin will be an Assyrian, and come from the geographical area of Ancient Assyria, which is part of the Grecian Empire. Isaiah 10, 14, and 30 all depict an Assyrian as the tool of God's wrath in the last days. (Not a Roman) All the nations mentioned in every prophecy I know of are Arab and/or Islamic today and they are commiting the abominations of the earth. Not Rome. Not Catholicism.

The Protestant's also quote Rev. 17:11 as proof that Rome is the beast.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This verse excludes Rome as the beast because Rome "was" in power at the time John wrote Revelation. John said the beast "is not" meaning it was not in existance at the time he wrote. That excludes Rome as the origin of the beast.

The demonic duo, false prophet and anti-christ will come from Israel's longtime enemy. The Arab's and Muslim's.

The Correct Sequence of Kingdoms of Daniel 2 is.

Babylon = Head of Gold
Mede's = Arms of silver
Persian' s= Thighs of brass
Greek s= Legs of iron.

Toes mingled with iron and clay = future and final Arab/Islamic kingdom from the area of the old Grecian Empire. (Mid-East)

Rock cut out without hands that destroys all these mid-Eastern kingdoms = Christ and His Kingdom.

The great horn, the king of fierce countenance comes from where?

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

In Daniel 11 the mighty king and both the king of the north and south, the vile person and raiser of taxes that stands up come from 'Grecia'. Not ROME!

The Mid-East isn't united and is one of the most lawless areas of the world. The man of sin will change all of that! The Empire of the man of sin isn't a global empire but a united Middle-East! And the religion that 'occupies' this beast is ISLAM!

The condition of apostasy we see in the Arab world today is prime for the entrance of the man of sin.

veteran · Mar 7, 2011

Keeping Jerusalem in mind as an area of beast control when reading about the beast kingdoms of Daniel, history is easily revealed.

head of gold - Babylon, Nebuchadnezzer was supreme king over it all.

breast and arms of silver - Medo-Persia empire, which was inferior in the sense that a government of law became superior to its kings. And remember, silver is less pure than gold.

belly and thighs of brass - Macedonian empire; Alexander was the conquerer, but not its later ruler for Alexander died and it became separated into three kingdoms from which Antiochus came. Thus the Macedonian empire was inferior to the previous beasts as to its rule.

legs of iron - Roman empire; iron is associated with the time of ancient pagan Rome. It included the areas of Asia Minor with Byzantine and Constantinople. Daniel is shown descriptions about this 4th beast with ten horns (ten kings) with another little horn coming up among the ten and taking power. That's about the Casaers as emperors, but also for the last days with the ten horns associated with the ten toes of iron mixed with clay. The Roman empire was a republic with a senate which ruled with the Casears, so it was more inferior to the king of Babylon's absolute rule also, and a lesser ruling structure than the Macedonian empire.

toes of part iron and part clay - Mohamedian conquering of Jerusalem and sacking of Constantiople by the Turks, IF we follow beast kingdom control of Jerusalem. Then Britain takes Jerusalem from the Turks during WWI, but then gives control back to the Arabs. Their ruling structure has been the most unstable.

Yet in Dan.2:44-45, Daniel is shown how in the last days when God sets up His Kingdom in their place in final, all the pieces of the statue, the gold, the silver, the brass, the iron, and the clay (i.e., 5 beasts) will TOGETHER tumble down when Christ comes to strike it upon its feet of ten toes.

Why do ALL the pieces of the statue 'together' tumble down when Christ comes to strike it upon its feet of ten toes? Each piece symbolizes a separate beast kingdom of history. All the pieces being together when Christ comes to strike it down means ALL the previous beast kingdoms will make up the final beast kingdom of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. It's pointing to all... the areas of the previous beast kingdoms being under control of the little horn that comes up among the ten kings in the days of Christ's return.

That final beast kingdom of ten toes is about control over the nations upon the entire earth. That means look past Islam today, for they are only being used as a tool to bring in that final ten toed beast kingdom over all nations on earth. The world controllers are trying to create a place for Islam among all other religious factions. But not radical Islam, but peaceful Islam. The fact that Communist Russia and China are allied with radical Islamic fundalmentalists should reveal how Islam radicals are only being used, and are not the real shakers and movers of the ten toed beast kingdom to come.

Because Islam at its heart preaches to conquer with the sword all those who refuse it, and per Christianity Christ Jesus is The Only Way of Salvation, the ten-toed beast system of part iron and part clay is not going to jel. The coming Antichrist's structure of rule will not completely jel. So with each beast kingdom stage, the structure of rule will become less and less jelled as it seeks to include all nations, peoples, multitudes, and tongues upon the earth. And rightly so, because there is only One True KING over all things, our Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings, and Lord of lords.

revturmoil · Mar 7, 2011

breast and arms of silver - Medo-Persia empire, which was inferior in the sense that a government of law became superior to its kings. And remember, silver is less pure than gold.

I never heard that silver is "less pure" than gold though it is inferior in value. That's the 4th interpretation of inferior that I've heard. It isn't that difficult to determine what the word means and implies.

How can you prove that this inferiority is, "a government of law became superior to its kings." (whatever that means) Some experts say it's a cultural inferiority, some say it's a spiritual inferiority. I say it's a land inferiority! The word inferior is Aramaic for earth, world, ground.

http://www.bluelette...ongs=H772&t=KJV

How can the median Empire be "land inferior" to Babylon? The Persian Empire was about 3-4 times the size of Babylon. The only thing said about the second kingdom is that it would be inferior. The definition of the word inferior IS the scriptural evidence. It wasn't Cyrus the Persian who took out Babylon. It was Darius.
Daniel 5:31 "And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

legs of iron - Roman empire; iron is associated with the time of ancient pagan Rome. It included the areas of Asia Minor with Byzantine and Constantinople. Daniel is shown descriptions about this 4th beast with ten horns (ten kings) with another little horn coming up among the ten and taking power. That's about the Casaers as emperors, but also for the last days with the ten horns associated with the ten toes of iron mixed with clay. The Roman empire was a republic with a senate which ruled with the Casears, so it was more inferior to the king of Babylon's absolute rule also, and a lesser ruling structure than the Macedonian empire.

You can believe that but!

How can the word mixed infer a Roman when the word is 'arab. In nearly every word study in Greek I have it denotes an Arabian. The iron and clay describe the Arab's better by far than the Roman's. Many have tried to label the iron and clay as Roman but Rome just doesn't fit the description of iron and clay. You did identify the iron and clay with the mohammadan's which in a future sense is correct. But Islam isn't an offshoot of the Roman Empire. They come out of the root of Alexander's Grecian Empire i.e. the legs of iron.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6151&t=KJV

Look at the bottom of the page and it say's "An Arabian."

Yet in Dan.2:44-45, Daniel is shown how in the last days when God sets up His Kingdom in their place in final, all the pieces of the statue, the gold, the silver, the brass, the iron, and the clay (i.e., 5 beasts) will TOGETHER tumble down when Christ comes to strike it upon its feet of ten toes.

Why do ALL the pieces of the statue 'together' tumble down when Christ comes to strike it upon its feet of ten toes? Each piece symbolizes a separate beast kingdom of history. All the pieces being together when Christ comes to strike it down means ALL the previous beast kingdoms will make up the final beast kingdom of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. It's pointing to all... the areas of the previous beast kingdoms being under control of the little horn that comes up among the ten kings in the days of Christ's return.

That comment I can agree with excluding Rome which wasn't a Mid-East Empire. The iron and clay is a future Empire that emerges from the Mid-East i.e. the geographical area of the Grecian empire.

That final beast kingdom of ten toes is about control over the nations on earth. The world controllers are trying to create a place for Islam among all other religious factions. But not radical Islam, but peaceful Islam. The fact that Communist Russia and China are allied with radical Islamic fundalmentalists should reveal how Islam radicals are only being used, and are not the real shakers and movers of the ten toed beast kingdom to come.

The ten toes are a kingdom of their own within fixed borders. The man of sin or the ten toes have nothing to do with a global empire or one world government like many would like you to believe. I really don't know how you come up with, "The world controllers are trying to create a place for Islam among all other religious factions. But not radical Islam, but peaceful Islam."
I know some people make the claim that Islam will be destroyed in the Ez. 38-39 war. That I don't agree with.

And I don't know how you can say Russia and China are allied with radical Islam. They may be allied with some Arab/Muslim countries but radical Islam has attacked both Russia and China.

veteran · Mar 9, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
I never heard that silver is "less pure" than gold though it is inferior in value. That's the 4th interpretation of inferior that I've heard. It isn't that difficult to determine what the word means and implies.

Easy to research that. Gold has less tarnish property than silver, and silver less than bronze, and bronze less than iron. In that sense gold is a purer metal than the others by comparison.

How can you prove that this inferiority is, "a government of law became superior to its kings." (whatever that means) Some experts say it's a cultural inferiority, some say it's a spiritual inferiority. I say it's a land inferiority! The word inferior is Aramaic for earth, world, ground.

The Aramaic word for "inferior" of Dan.2:39 in the KJV does mean earth or ground. But the coverage of land area increased with each successive beast kingdom. So what did the KJV translators intend with their translation to "inferior" about the next beast? Look again at the materials of the statue image Daniel was shown. Each successive piece of the statue down to the feet is lighter in weight and of less quality. That is compounded with the idea of the toes being mixed part iron and part clay which really doesn't mix. The idea is that statue is very, very top-heavy, the heaviest materials on top.

As the later beast kingdoms covered more area and peoples they became increasingly more difficult to control. With Alexander, the Macedonian empire was multi-branched, likewise with the later Roman-Byzantine empire which covered even more land mass and peoples. The ten toes pointing to ten kings with feet of mixed iron and clay reveals that will continue with the final beast kingdom.

How can the median Empire be "land inferior" to Babylon? The Persian Empire was about 3-4 times the size of Babylon. The only thing said about the second kingdom is that it would be inferior. The definition of the word inferior IS the scriptural evidence. It wasn't Cyrus the Persian who took out Babylon. It was Darius.

Daniel 5:31 "And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

I never said anything about a "land inferior" idea.

Cyrus The Great (as he was called) conquered the Babylon empire, the Median empire, and the Lydian empire. Darius received Cyrus' kingdom later...

Ezra 4:4-5
4 Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building,
5 And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.
(KJV)

That Ezra 4 example is about Judah busy rebuilding in Jerusalem after Cyrus released them from the 70 years Babylon captivity (see Ezra 1). God called Cyrus His anointed in Isaiah 45, having ordained Cyrus to conquer Babylon and free the Jews back to Jerusalem.

How can the word mixed infer a Roman when the word is 'arab. In nearly every word study in Greek I have it denotes an Arabian. The iron and clay describe the Arab's better by far than the Roman's. Many have tried to label the iron and clay as Roman but Rome just doesn't fit the description of iron and clay. You did identify the iron and clay with the mohammadan's which in a future sense is correct. But Islam isn't an offshoot of the Roman Empire. They come out of the root of Alexander's Grecian Empire i.e. the legs of iron.

It's because the Aramaic word 'arab' means 'comingled', 'to braid' (Strong's no. 6151, and 6148). And the Arabs are a mixed people.

The Roman empire does fit the "legs of iron" part of the statue Daniel was shown. I agree Rome is not the iron mixed with clay ten toes, which is still future for the final beast kingdom present in the days of Christ's return (our days). But as the ten toes have iron, and the legs are also of iron, there is an association as to type. Daniel was shown ten horns associated with the 4th beast, which is the "legs of iron". That description is also linked to the last one with ten toes. That's where many get the idea of a revived Roman empire for the last days.

That comment I can agree with excluding Rome which wasn't a Mid-East Empire. The iron and clay is a future Empire that emerges from the Mid-East i.e. the geographical area of the Grecian empire.

Based on what we're seeing with the movement of Islam today, it could easily seem so. However, I think we need to look deeper, because Edom (Esau) is involved per Dan.11. And the land of Edom is no more. So where and who is Edom today? After God pronounced sentence upon the nation of Edom and ended it, lot of the Idumeans mixed in among the lands of Judea among the Jews. The Herods were of Idumean origin (of Esau, per Jewish historian Josephus). And Ezek.38 shows the future army out of the northern quarters that will come upon Israel on the last day stretches as far north as Tubal and Gomer (i.e, areas of Armenia and Russia). No accident that Russia is supporting radical Islam today against Israel and the Christian west.

The ten toes are a kingdom of their own within fixed borders. The man of sin or the ten toes have nothing to do with a global empire or one world government like many would like you to believe. I really don't know how you come up with,

"The world controllers are trying to create a place for Islam among all other religious factions. But not radical Islam, but peaceful Islam."
I know some people make the claim that Islam will be destroyed in the Ez. 38-39 war. That I don't agree with.

Christ said in Rev.17 the "seven heads" are "seven mountains". And He said in Rev.17 the "waters" (pointing to the "sea" of the beast kingdom of Rev.13:1) are peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues. He also said in Revelation 13 the beast will engulf the whole earth. So how is that NOT about the idea of a "one world government" over all nations? What was the United Nations apparatus instituted for anyway? And with the way the historical beast kingdoms kept spreading out to cover more and more territory and peoples, how does that have nothing to do with the idea of "one world government"? It's a little late in the day to hide the eyes from evidence of creation of a one-world globalist system whose intentions of that has become publically open in only the past few decades.

I'll never forget that U.S. President George W. Bush once said, "Islam is a great religion". Western globalists have no intention of destroying the peaceful followers of Islam. They are as much a part of the plans for a "one world government" as all other religions on earth are today. It's the radical extremist Muslims that are being dealt with. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will live in peace closer to the end of this world. But it will not be a real and complete peace, which is what the ten toes of iron mixed with clay reveals. This is what the Ecumnemical religious movement is about, the joining of all religions in peace. Right after 9/11 religious heads from several different religions got together and said prayers according to each one's faith in New York City. It included religious leaders of Islam too. That event was covered all over the nation by radio. I'll never forget that ecumemical event either. God has ordained the coming one world government beast system. It will happen. What my Christian brethren should be asking themselves about that, is why is God allowing it, and what's our Christian duty during it per His Word?

And I don't know how you can say Russia and China are allied with radical Islam. They may be allied with some Arab/Muslim countries but radical Islam has attacked both Russia and China.

I recall when Israel attacked a certain nuclear facility in Syria a couple of years ago, and Russia told Israel to be careful, because Russia had military advisors in Syria. During the most recent Israeli-Lebanon conflict, Russia sent naval warship to Syria's ports. Russia also sent missles to the radical Islamic extremists in Lebanon. And what about Russia developing Iran's missle and military nuclear programs? Of course not all Muslims are sided with those extremist ones that get support from Communist Russia and Red China. Afterall, Turkey which is primarily a Muslim nation is part of the western allied NATO organization.

That 'some' small radical Islamic factions have done a few little terrorist acts in Russia really means very little, especially since Russia has for years been militarily supporting Iraq, Iran, Libya, Sudan, Yemen, Syria, etc.

revturmoil · Mar 10, 2011

The crux of the matter is this. Does the terminology of the text support a Roman empire somewhere in the statue. Is an empire of great size considered inferior when the word indicates a 'land inferiority?" What does the scriptural evidence support? One thing I know. The bible is the historical authority on the Darius the Mede and there's very little secular history on him. The Median Empre was smaller and only lasted about 4 years. Only one of those years is recorded in the bible and it's believed by some that Darius the Mede just succedded the kingdom from Belshazzar. Maybe that's what's meant when it says Darius 'took' the kingdom because the word took means "to receive!"

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6902&t=KJV

The Aramaic word for "inferior" of Dan.2:39 in the KJV does mean earth or ground. But the coverage of land area increased with each successive beast kingdom.

What does that matter? Prove to me the second empire is Persia!

Inferiority applies only to the second kingdom and all that's said about it. There's no reason to assume that their size would increase. Why would you assume that when the word inferior is land?

It's even disputable whether Rome was larger than Greece and Persia. The Persian Empire and the Grecian Empire were just about the same size and both had more land mass than the Roman Empire. The Roman empire had less land but because it circled the edges of the Mediterranian it looked bigger but the Persian and Grecian Empire had more land area. Even the maps in my bible show that. I said that the word inferior is 'ara' or land. I take it litteral. The word inferior (land) doesn't describe the metal, it describes the empire. The Persian Empire was not 'land inferior' to Babylon. The Median Empire was smaller and shortlived. The Median Empire is the smaller horn that came up first on the Ram. That's in accord with it being 'land inferior'.

So what did the KJV translators intend with their translation to "inferior" about the next beast? Look again at the materials of the statue image Daniel was shown. Each successive piece of the statue down to the feet is lighter in weight and of less quality. That is compounded with the idea of the toes being mixed part iron and part clay which really doesn't mix. The idea is that statue is very, very top-heavy, the heaviest materials on top.

I don't see why any of that matters. Being top heavy isn't what destroys it.. Jesus destroys it and IT are all Mid-East Empires which Islam 'occupies" or "sits upon" the beast.

What does the heavier metal on top have anything to do with this? The word inferior only describes the second empire. It has nothing to do with the others. Your placing too much emphasis on the metals and not the description of the empires. The second Empire is said to be inferior. (land) and only the Median Empire qualifies for that.

The third empire, "which shall bear rule over all the earth." = Persia

Here's one example out of dozens where the word all doesn't mean the entirety of the whole. No kingdom has ever ruled the entire earth.

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, (Mede's) and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. (Persia).

The fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. This is Greece.

As the later beast kingdoms covered more area and peoples they became increasingly more difficult to control. With Alexander, the Macedonian empire was multi-branched, likewise with the later Roman-Byzantine empire which covered even more land mass and peoples. The ten toes pointing to ten kings with feet of mixed iron and clay reveals that will continue with the final beast kingdom.

What does this have to do with the crux of the matter. What does the scriptural evidence point to. You have to prove to me how the Persian Empire was inferior to Babylon because that changes everything. That changes who the fourth empire is. You're going off into all directions but you have to face the inferior kingdom. I can agree the the Roman Empire had more people, but not land. Look at the maps. But what does that matter?

Cyrus The Great (as he was called) conquered the Babylon empire, the Median empire, and the Lydian empire. Darius received Cyrus' kingdom later...

If you research this entire subject you'll find a host of different opinions on it with the dates scattered all over the place. That's because in a sense there were 2 Cyrus's and 3 Darius's and they were intermarried. These two may have also been called other names as well and you may have noticed that in your research. This can get confusing as I've been through it before. There's a lot of mis-information about all of this.

The Darius mentioned in Ez. 4:5 is Darius the Persian not Darius the Mede of Daniel 5. Darius the Persian came after Darius the Mede.
Darius the Persian in Ezra 4 acquired the kingdom later. Darius the Mede conquered it, it went to Cyrus, then to Darius the Persian.

Ezra 4:5 And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

Daniel 5:31

"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17

"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Daniel 6:28 So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

The confusion is that there were 2 Cyrus's and 3 Darius's and they were intermarried. There is very little secular history on Darius and the bible is the historical authority on Darius. I know secularist tell us that Cyrus conquered the Mede's and Babylon. But I believe what the bible says on the matter. Not the secular historians. There are a host of contradictions in secular history about Cyrus the Great, and very little on Darius the Mede.

Darius was older than Cyrus. The custom of those days was that the elder went into battle first. The Mede's were the better warriors anyway. Cyrus the Great was actually related to "Darius the Mede" through his wife (Mandane) who was the sister of "Darius the Mede". (Their father was Astyges) And Darius the Mede was the Father of Cyrus1.(Supposedly)

There really was no war between Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian. Only about 100 people died in the battle which was more of a political/family coup/dispute. The families of both Darius and Cyrus personally fought one another. And after, they they became a strong confederacy actually known as the Persian empire. They were allies anyway and actually migrated to the are together.

Ezra 4:4-5

4 Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building,

5 And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

That Ezra 4 example is about Judah busy rebuilding in Jerusalem after Cyrus released them from the 70 years Babylon captivity (see Ezra 1). God called Cyrus His anointed in Isaiah 45, having ordained Cyrus to conquer Babylon and free the Jews back to Jerusalem.

It's because the Aramaic word 'arab' means 'comingled', 'to braid' (Strong's no. 6151, and 6148). And the Arabs are a mixed people.

And that's what is said about the iron and clay. They are 'mixed' with the seed of men.

The Roman empire does fit the "legs of iron" part of the statue Daniel was shown. I agree Rome is not the iron mixed with clay ten toes, which is still future for the final beast kingdom present in the days of Christ's return (our days). But as the ten toes have iron, and the legs are also of iron, there is an association as to type. Daniel was shown ten horns associated with the 4th beast, which is the "legs of iron". That description is also linked to the last one with ten toes. That's where many get the idea of a revived Roman empire for the last days.

I tend to believe that Rome was branded as the beast anyway so they worked their way backwards to attain Rome as the fourth kingdom. They were convinced it was. The toes mingled with iron and clay are associated with the legs of iron. One can't be Islamic and the other Rome. Mixed denotes an Arabian.

Based on what we're seeing with the movement of Islam today, it could easily seem so. However, I think we need to look deeper, because Edom (Esau) is involved per Dan.11. And the land of Edom is no more. So where and who is Edom today? After God pronounced sentence upon the nation of Edom and ended it, lot of the Idumeans mixed in among the lands of Judea among the Jews. The Herods were of Idumean origin (of Esau, per Jewish historian Josephus). And Ezek.38 shows the future army out of the northern quarters that will come upon Israel on the last day stretches as far north as Tubal and Gomer (i.e, areas of Armenia and Russia). No accident that Russia is supporting radical Islam today against Israel and the Christian west.

Russia isn't supporting radical Islam. Russia is supporting Islamic regimes. And so are we! We just cancelled a shipment of 70 Armored personel carriers to Lybia. Radical Islam has attacked Russia several times in the recent past. But there may be some truth to that. I'm not sure.

Christ said in Rev.17 the "seven heads" are "seven mountains". And He said in Rev.17 the "waters" (pointing to the "sea" of the beast kingdom of Rev.13:1) are peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues. He also said in Revelation 13 the beast will engulf the whole earth. So how is that NOT about the idea of a "one world government" over all nations?

The word all in Rev. 13:7 means individually.

Here's an example of how there are two different words for all with two different meanings.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3650&t=KJV

In this verse all is 'holos' #3650 meaning all, whole,completely. That's because the entire earth will be astonished that the beast has come back!

But the word all in Rev 13:7 is 'pas' meaning individually.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G3956&t=KJV

In verse 7 it's better translated all wihin his kingdom. It takes time to explain that and I will if you like.

What was the United Nations apparatus instituted for anyway? And with the way the historical beast kingdoms kept spreading out to cover more and more territory and peoples, how does that have nothing to do with the idea of "one world government"?

The UN is powerless. They can even fix a Kadaffi crisis. And the succession of kingdoms has nothing to do with that. It's all in the word all!

I'll never forget that U.S. President George W. Bush once said, "Islam is a great religion". Western globalists have no intention of destroying the peaceful followers of Islam. They are as much a part of the plans for a "one world government" as all other religions on earth are today. It's the radical extremist Muslims that are being dealt with. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will live in peace closer to the end of this world. But it will not be a real and complete peace, which is what the ten toes of iron mixed with clay reveals. This is what the Ecumnemical religious movement is about, the joining of all religions in peace. Right after 9/11 religious heads from several different religions got together and said prayers according to each one's faith in New York City. It included religious leaders of Islam too. That event was covered all over the nation by radio. I'll never forget that ecumemical event either. God has ordained the coming one world government beast system. It will happen. What my Christian brethren should be asking themselves about that, is why is God allowing it, and what's our Christian duty during it per His Word?

I don't know how it is you can read that in the iron and clay. Let's make it simple and look at the scriptural evidence!　

veteran · Mar 12, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
The crux of the matter is this. Does the terminology of the text support a Roman empire somewhere in the statue. Is an empire of great size considered inferior when the word indicates a 'land inferiority?" What does the scriptural evidence support? One thing I know. The bible is the historical authority on the Darius the Mede and there's very little secular history on him. The Median Empre was smaller and only lasted about 4 years. Only one of those years is recorded in the bible and it's believed by some that Darius the Mede just succedded the kingdom from Belshazzar. Maybe that's what's meant when it says Darius 'took' the kingdom because the word took means "to receive!"

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6902&t=KJV

What does that matter? Prove to me the second empire is Persia!

Inferiority applies only to the second kingdom and all that's said about it. There's no reason to assume that their size would increase. Why would you assume that when the word inferior is land?

It's even disputable whether Rome was larger than Greece and Persia. The Persian Empire and the Grecian Empire were just about the same size and both had more land mass than the Roman Empire. The Roman empire had less land but because it circled the edges of the Mediterranian it looked bigger but the Persian and Grecian Empire had more land area. Even the maps in my bible show that. I said that the word inferior is 'ara' or land. I take it litteral. The word inferior (land) doesn't describe the metal, it describes the empire. The Persian Empire was not 'land inferior' to Babylon. The Median Empire was smaller and shortlived. The Median Empire is the smaller horn that came up first on the Ram. That's in accord with it being 'land inferior'.

I don't see why any of that matters. Being top heavy isn't what destroys it.. Jesus destroys it and IT are all Mid-East Empires which Islam 'occupies" or "sits upon" the beast.

What does the heavier metal on top have anything to do with this? The word inferior only describes the second empire. It has nothing to do with the others. Your placing too much emphasis on the metals and not the description of the empires. The second Empire is said to be inferior. (land) and only the Median Empire qualifies for that.

The third empire, "which shall bear rule over all the earth." = Persia

Here's one example out of dozens where the word all doesn't mean the entirety of the whole. No kingdom has ever ruled the entire earth.

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, (Mede's) and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. (Persia).

The fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. This is Greece.

What does this have to do with the crux of the matter. What does the scriptural evidence point to. You have to prove to me how the Persian Empire was inferior to Babylon because that changes everything. That changes who the fourth empire is. You're going off into all directions but you have to face the inferior kingdom. I can agree the the Roman Empire had more people, but not land. Look at the maps. But what does that matter?

If you research this entire subject you'll find a host of different opinions on it with the dates scattered all over the place. That's because in a sense there were 2 Cyrus's and 3 Darius's and they were intermarried. These two may have also been called other names as well and you may have noticed that in your research. This can get confusing as I've been through it before. There's a lot of mis-information about all of this.

The Darius mentioned in Ez. 4:5 is Darius the Persian not Darius the Mede of Daniel 5. Darius the Persian came after Darius the Mede.
Darius the Persian in Ezra 4 acquired the kingdom later. Darius the Mede conquered it, it went to Cyrus, then to Darius the Persian.

Ezra 4:5 And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

Daniel 5:31

"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17

"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Daniel 6:28 So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

The confusion is that there were 2 Cyrus's and 3 Darius's and they were intermarried. There is very little secular history on Darius and the bible is the historical authority on Darius. I know secularist tell us that Cyrus conquered the Mede's and Babylon. But I believe what the bible says on the matter. Not the secular historians. There are a host of contradictions in secular history about Cyrus the Great, and very little on Darius the Mede.

Darius was older than Cyrus. The custom of those days was that the elder went into battle first. The Mede's were the better warriors anyway. Cyrus the Great was actually related to "Darius the Mede" through his wife (Mandane) who was the sister of "Darius the Mede". (Their father was Astyges) And Darius the Mede was the Father of Cyrus1.(Supposedly)

There really was no war between Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian. Only about 100 people died in the battle which was more of a political/family coup/dispute. The families of both Darius and Cyrus personally fought one another. And after, they they became a strong confederacy actually known as the Persian empire. They were allies anyway and actually migrated to the are together.

And that's what is said about the iron and clay. They are 'mixed' with the seed of men.

I tend to believe that Rome was branded as the beast anyway so they worked their way backwards to attain Rome as the fourth kingdom. They were convinced it was. The toes mingled with iron and clay are associated with the legs of iron. One can't be Islamic and the other Rome. Mixed denotes an Arabian.

Russia isn't supporting radical Islam. Russia is supporting Islamic regimes. And so are we! We just cancelled a shipment of 70 Armored personel carriers to Lybia. Radical Islam has attacked Russia several times in the recent past. But there may be some truth to that. I'm not sure.

The word all in Rev. 13:7 means individually.

Here's an example of how there are two different words for all with two different meanings.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G3650&t=KJV

In this verse all is 'holos' #3650 meaning all, whole,completely. That's because the entire earth will be astonished that the beast has come back!

But the word all in Rev 13:7 is 'pas' meaning individually.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G3956&t=KJV

In verse 7 it's better translated all wihin his kingdom. It takes time to explain that and I will if you like.

The UN is powerless. They can even fix a Kadaffi crisis. And the succession of kingdoms has nothing to do with that. It's all in the word all!

I don't know how it is you can read that in the iron and clay. Let's make it simple and look at the scriptural evidence!　

Ezra 1:1-8
1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and He hath charged me to build Him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Who is there among you of all His people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (He is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
6 And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.
7 Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the LORD, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods;
8 Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah.
(KJV)

Dan 1:20-21
20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.
(KJV)

Ezra 6:14-15
14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
(KJV)

No sense in continuing to discuss the matter with you, since you'd rather believe what you've already decided contrary to the Scripture.

revturmoil · Mar 12, 2011

No sense in continuing to discuss the matter with you, since you'd rather believe what you've already decided contrary to the Scripture.

I probably have more time researching this subject than you do. Just what is it that you are implying? You're confused because you possibly don't understand that there are more than one Darius and more than one Cyrus. It was common in those times for kings to continue the name. It's no different than the kings of Antiochus! Let me know what it is that you don't understand since you accuse me of being contrary to the scriptures?

If you're having difficulty with Darius the Mede, who is not Darius the Persian, I can prove that they aren't the same person in scripture.
Let me know and please stop with the contrary to scripture accusations. If you don't agree with me, it doesn't mean that I'm contrary to scripture. It may be because of your lack of understanding.

So explain just what it is you assume is contrary to scripture? Explain yourself!

Alethos · Mar 17, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
I probably have more time researching this subject than you do. Just what is it that you are implying? You're confused because you possibly don't understand that there are more than one Darius and more than one Cyrus. It was common in those times for kings to continue the name. It's no different than the kings of Antiochus! Let me know what it is that you don't understand since you accuse me of being contrary to the scriptures?

If you're having difficulty with Darius the Mede, who is not Darius the Persian, I can prove that they aren't the same person in scripture.
Let me know and please stop with the contrary to scripture accusations. If you don't agree with me, it doesn't mean that I'm contrary to scripture. It may be because of your lack of understanding.

So explain just what it is you assume is contrary to scripture? Explain yourself!

kaoticprofit & veteran

Having studied the visions of Daniel and the Revelation for close on 15 years I concur with Veterans interpretation and understanding, which by the way has been held from the time of Josephus, and even before! (can provide proofs if required)

Like I stated to you personally I have never, not once, seen your interpretation.

God willing I will provide some commentary on Dan 2 this evening.

Let’s not make the study personal, but allow the Word to be our voice and use that age old technique which all the prophets and apostles of old used to discover truth.

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Or better stated "quoting scripture with scripture"

Alethos

revturmoil · Mar 17, 2011

Truth said:
kaoticprofit & veteran

Having studied the visions of Daniel and the Revelation for close on 15 years I concur with Veterans interpretation and understanding, which by the way has been held from the time of Josephus, and even before! (can provide proofs if required)

Like I stated to you personally I have never, not once, seen your interpretation.

God willing I will provide some commentary on Dan 2 this evening.

Let’s not make the study personal, but allow the Word to be our voice and use that age old technique which all the prophets and apostles of old used to discover truth.

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Or better stated "quoting scripture with scripture"

Alethos

Be aware that the sequence of kingdom's that Josephus believed is the same as mine. In fact I didn't find this out until a couple of years ago when I looked it up in Wiki. I came up with my interpretation of Daniel 2 about 8 years ago through my own study.

From Wiki...
Another view has been more popular among Jewish scholars, at least as far back as Flavius Josephus, and has support from 20th century Biblical scholars such as John J. CollinsHYPERLINK \l "cite_note-3"[4] as well as conservative Christian scholars such as H. H. Rowley, Gurney, Lucas, and Walton.[5]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-5"[6]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-lucas-6"[7] The proposed sequence is:

The gold head - Babylon
The silver breast and arms - Media
The copper belly and thighs - Persia
The iron legs - Greece
The feet partly of iron and partly of molded clay - The Seleucids and the Ptolemies

The entire page is a great study and a good read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_2

I really do believe that the reformers and Protestant interpreters that followed were convinced that Rome was the beast and automatically labeled it as the fourth kingdom and then worked their way back.

revturmoil · Mar 17, 2011

Truth said:
kaoticprofit & veteran

Having studied the visions of Daniel and the Revelation for close on 15 years I concur with Veterans interpretation and understanding, which by the way has been held from the time of Josephus, and even before! (can provide proofs if required)

Like I stated to you personally I have never, not once, seen your interpretation.

God willing I will provide some commentary on Dan 2 this evening.

Let’s not make the study personal, but allow the Word to be our voice and use that age old technique which all the prophets and apostles of old used to discover truth.

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Or better stated "quoting scripture with scripture"

Alethos

My question to you is... Would you ever consider the views of others? And after considering the evidence would you consider changing your mind? Ever notice how we all come here trying to prove others wrong and believing we know what's right. That being the case we should be here considering the evidence together and above all be willing to consider other views and willing to change our minds. I use to believe what you all do.

Sometimes...I think prophecy was written to fool us and sometimes...we fool ourselves.

Alethos · Mar 18, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the great statue is what Protestant's quote as proof that Rome is the origin of the beast(s).

The reformers were convinced. Rome persecuted Christian's and Jew's, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and persecuted people for defecting from the faith. So to them, it was a given. Rome (RRE) would in the latter days emerge as the endtime beasts of Revelation.

In Daniel 2, Babylon is the head of gold in Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the great statue.

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

The only thing said about the second kingdon is that it's inferior to Babylon. What kingdom was inferior to Babylon?
Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not!

Daniel 2:39

And after thee shall arise another kingdom “inferior” to thee"

This was the certainly the kingdom of Medo-Persia which assumed the ascendance over Babylon in B.C. 536.

It is represented elsewhere in Daniel as the bear of Dan 7:5, and the ram of Dan. 8:3. Silver was an appropriate metal to represent this kingdom, for, according to Herodotus, the taxation and tribute of the empire was paid in silver talents. But even as silver is inferior to gold, so this kingdom is described. However, it was not inferior to Babylon in the length or extent of its rule, for it exceeded its predecessor in those particulars.

Medo-Persia incorporated far more territory into its realm than did Babylon, and continued for a longer period: 207 years as against 70 years.

In what way was it "inferior" to Babylon?

This is an important question having a bearing on the latter-day manifestation of the Image. The "inferiority" of the Medo-Persian rule was in its governmental control. Unlike Babylon, the kings of Medo-Persia were bound by their own decrees; they could not escape these even though they may have desired to do so. This is illustrated by the attempt of Darius to release Daniel from the results of his own law. This he was unable to do because he was governed by it (cp. Dan 6:14-16). Nebuchadnezzar would have tolerated no such limitations to his will. He was a dictator subject to none, and could revise or reverse his decisions at will. Therefore the golden head of the image is indicative of the dictatorial autocracy of his rule. No House of Legislature intervened between the will of the king and its exercise (see Dan 5:19).

When we approach the Persian monarch we see he shared political power with "three Presidents" and 120 princes (Dan 6:1-2) and was himself subject to the law of the land. Once the king had given the regal signature to a law it became impossible even for him to change it (Dan 6:8, Dan 6:14-15). This inferiority was to continue in decline with each subsequent change in political power as the lessening value of the metals demonstrated. The last and most inferior stage was represented by the "feet and toes" of the image, the political power of which would be "partly strong and partly broken" (Dan 2:42). It would be divided amongst a number of kings, recipients of Nebuchadnezzar's original political power (and attitude; cp. Dan 7:24) who would "mingle themselves with the seed of men" (Dan 2:43) which is tantamount to saying that the political power and the spirit of Nebuchadnezzar was to be shared amongst ordinary people, as it is today (Democracy).

Finally Daniel informed Nebuchadnezzar that when this point in history arrived, "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever" (Dan 2:44). Then and only then will the fifth and final phase of the kingdom of men came about and Nebuchadnezzar's impious spirit and political power was universally dissipated, God would intervene in the affairs of man and establish an Eternal and Universal Kingdom with His Son upon the throne ruling over all the Earth.

Alethos · Mar 18, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
Be aware that the sequence of kingdom's that Josephus believed is the same as mine. In fact I didn't find this out until a couple of years ago when I looked it up in Wiki. I came up with my interpretation of Daniel 2 about 8 years ago through my own study.

From Wiki...
Another view has been more popular among Jewish scholars, at least as far back as Flavius Josephus, and has support from 20th century Biblical scholars such as John J. CollinsHYPERLINK \l "cite_note-3"[4] as well as conservative Christian scholars such as H. H. Rowley, Gurney, Lucas, and Walton.[5]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-5"[6]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-lucas-6"[7] The proposed sequence is:

The gold head - Babylon

The silver breast and arms - Media

The copper belly and thighs - Persia

The iron legs - Greece

The feet partly of iron and partly of molded clay - The Seleucids and the Ptolemies

The entire page is a great study and a good read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_2

I really do believe that the reformers and Protestant interpreters that followed were convinced that Rome was the beast and automatically labeled it as the fourth kingdom and then worked their way back.

That was a very cunning post...but not very wise.

Any historian will tell you Josephus Flavius was Jewish and he wrote and spoke in Greek. He was also a Roman citizen who was an eye witness to the Roman occupation and destruction of the Jews in Ad70.

HE WAS AN EYE WITNESS HE SAW FIRSTHAND THE GRECO - ROMAN EMPIRE.

In hindsight I think you will regret writing that post.

Alethos

revturmoil · Mar 18, 2011

Truth said:
That was a very cunning post...but not very wise.

Any historian will tell you Josephus Flavius was Jewish and he wrote and spoke in Greek. He was also a Roman citizen who was an eye witness to the Roman occupation and destruction of the Jews in Ad70.

HE WAS AN EYE WITNESS HE SAW FIRSTHAND THE GRECO - ROMAN EMPIRE.

In hindsight I think you will regret writing that post.

Alethos

If you have a problem with it then take it up with Wiki. I know how difficult it is for people to admit mistakes, or change their mind. And I guess you've just answered the question I asked elsewhere.

tomwebster · Mar 18, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
If you have a problem with it then take it up with Wiki. I know how difficult it is for people to admit mistakes, or change their mind. And I guess you've just answered the question I asked elsewhere.

Are you prepared to change your mind? I don't expect so. You think you have the inside track, maybe you don't.

revturmoil · Mar 18, 2011

tomwebster said:
Are you prepared to change your mind? I don't expect so. You think you have the inside track, maybe you don't.

I was a pre-tribulationist. Now I'm a post-tribulationist. I use to believe in globalism. Now I believe in a ten nation empire. I used to believe Rome was the beast. Now I believe Islam is the beast. I use to believe in a one world religion. Now I believe the prophecied evil religion of the end is Islam. I use to believe a temple needed to be rebuilt. Now I'm not sure and still questioning it. I use to believe the church was implied in the apostasy. Now I believe it's associated with the man of sin....
There's a lot of things I'm unsure of and still questioning. I'm not saying I have the inside track...but maybe I do since it appears I and a host of others just may be onto something. But to answer your question...

Yes I do change my mind! YOU?

revturmoil · Mar 18, 2011

Daniel 2:39

And after thee shall arise another kingdom "inferior" to thee"

This was the certainly the kingdom of Medo-Persia which assumed the ascendance over Babylon in B.C. 536.

It is represented elsewhere in Daniel as the bear of Dan 7:5, and the ram of Dan. 8:3.

In Daniel 8 the smaller horn that came up first is the Median Empire, the Ram is their confederacy which is the thighs of brass.

I think the 4 beast mentioned in Daniel 7 are all end-time beast.

Daniel 7:7 　After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6925&t=KJV

The fourth beast is an end-time empire and the other beast were "infront of" the other beast or stand before it. In other words they are all in existence at the time of the fourth or end-time beast. Not every one takes this view. Ray Stedman does and this view isn't that hard to prove.

Why would it be necessary for God to repeat the same message in two different visions? Why have one vision in Daniel 7 have a repeat of it in Daniel 2? They're two completely different visions! The dating of Daniel's vision works against the idea that the lion is the Babylon of old since the vision occurs in the first year of Belchazzar who was the last king of Babylon! Why would the first beast the lion be discriptive of a beast already in existence!

Daniel 7:1 　¶In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

Silver was an appropriate metal to represent this kingdom, for, according to Herodotus, the taxation and tribute of the empire was paid in silver talents. But even as silver is inferior to gold, so this kingdom is described. However, it was not inferior to Babylon in the length or extent of its rule, for it exceeded its predecessor in those particulars.

Medo-Persia incorporated far more territory into its realm than did Babylon, and continued for a longer period: 207 years as against 70 years.

The kingdom doesn't describe the metal. So the metal is just symbolic of the kingdom. The word inferior which is 'ara' or land isn't in accord with the Persian Empire. The Median Empire lasted only about 4 years so in that respect it was also inferior.

In what way was it "inferior" to Babylon?

This is an important question having a bearing on the latter-day manifestation of the Image. The "inferiority" of the Medo-Persian rule was in its governmental control. Unlike Babylon, the kings of Medo-Persia were bound by their own decrees; they could not escape these even though they may have desired to do so. This is illustrated by the attempt of Darius to release Daniel from the results of his own law. This he was unable to do because he was governed by it (cp. Dan 6:14-16). Nebuchadnezzar would have tolerated no such limitations to his will. He was a dictator subject to none, and could revise or reverse his decisions at will. Therefore the golden head of the image is indicative of the dictatorial autocracy of his rule. No House of Legislature intervened between the will of the king and its exercise (see Dan 5:19).

AH! Another copy and paste attempt! Be careful about copyrite laws. You should post a link. I've heard that it was a cultural inferiority from Phillip Goodman. I heard it was a spiritual inferiority from others. I hear from...whoever that it's a governmental inferiority! That 's a pretty tough thing to prove when one word describes the second empire.

INFERIOR
http://www.bluelette...ongs=H772&t=KJV

When we approach the Persian monarch we see he shared political power with "three Presidents" and 120 princes (Dan 6:1-2) and was himself subject to the law of the land. Once the king had given the regal signature to a law it became impossible even for him to change it (Dan 6:8, Dan 6:14-15). This inferiority was to continue in decline with each subsequent change in political power as the lessening value of the metals demonstrated. The last and most inferior stage was represented by the "feet and toes" of the image, the political power of which would be "partly strong and partly broken" (Dan 2:42). It would be divided amongst a number of kings, recipients of Nebuchadnezzar's original political power (and attitude; cp. Dan 7:24) who would "mingle themselves with the seed of men" (Dan 2:43) which is tantamount to saying that the political power and the spirit of Nebuchadnezzar was to be shared amongst ordinary people, as it is today (Democracy).

I don't agree that, "This inferiority was to continue in decline with each subsequent change in political power as the lessening value of the metals demonstrated."

The word inferior applies to the second kingdom only and the metals symbolically describes the kingdom. There's no way for you to prove this theory you found about an inferiority of governmental control, and neither can the others. But good try and lets stick to the text as much as possible.
Regardless of whatever cultural, religious/spiritual or governmental inferiorrity people may claim about this inferiority it can't proven it from the text.

I can prove my theory about the inferior kingdom.

Is it too simple to see that's a land inferiority!

Is it too simple to see that Darius the Mede took Babylon!
Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Alethos · Mar 18, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
In Daniel 8 the smaller horn that came up first is the Median Empire, the Ram is their confederacy which is the thighs of brass.

I think the 4 beast mentioned in Daniel 7 are all end-time beast.

Daniel 7:7 　After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6925&t=KJV

The fourth beast is an end-time empire and the other beast were "infront of" the other beast or stand before it. In other words they are all in existence at the time of the fourth or end-time beast. Not every one takes this view. Ray Stedman does and this view isn't that hard to prove.

Why would it be necessary for God to repeat the same message in two different visions? Why have one vision in Daniel 7 have a repeat of it in Daniel 2? They're two completely different visions! The dating of Daniel's vision works against the idea that the lion is the Babylon of old since the vision occurs in the first year of Belchazzar who was the last king of Babylon! Why would the first beast the lion be discriptive of a beast already in existence!

Daniel 7:1 　¶In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

The kingdom doesn't describe the metal. So the metal is just symbolic of the kingdom. The word inferior which is 'ara' or land isn't in accord with the Persian Empire. The Median Empire lasted only about 4 years so in that respect it was also inferior.

AH! Another copy and paste attempt! Be careful about copyrite laws. You should post a link. I've heard that it was a cultural inferiority from Phillip Goodman. I heard it was a spiritual inferiority from others. I hear from...whoever that it's a governmental inferiority! That 's a pretty tough thing to prove when one word describes the second empire.

INFERIOR
http://www.bluelette...ongs=H772&t=KJV

I don't agree that, "This inferiority was to continue in decline with each subsequent change in political power as the lessening value of the metals demonstrated."

The word inferior applies to the second kingdom only and the metals symbolically describes the kingdom. There's no way for you to prove this theory you found about an inferiority of governmental control, and neither can the others. But good try and lets stick to the text as much as possible.
Regardless of whatever cultural, religious/spiritual or governmental inferiorrity people may claim about this inferiority it can't proven it from the text.

I can prove my theory about the inferior kingdom.

Is it too simple to see that's a land inferiority!

Is it too simple to see that Darius the Mede took Babylon!
Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Its difficult to reason with a man who denies the Roman Empire ever existed. Why are you afraid to admit the legs are Roman?

Maybe you are holding onto your Catholic roots?
Maybe you are anti Islam

You wrest Scripture so Islam becomes the apostasy when the Scriptures are clear the Apostasy will be Christian. Islam will never come in the name of Christ? They profess him to nothing more than a prophet.

Its clear you are uncertain about much and therefore still finding your way in these prophecies.

I have provided very clear scriptures to show the decline in metals is clearly weakening governments:

Nebuchadnezzar - Autocrat
Medo - Persian - 120 Princes etc
Greco - Alexander and his four generals
Roman - Caesar and the senate
Roman fragments in the feet (EU) and the Democratic Peoples of the Earth. (Styled Frog like spirits in Rev 16)

All pointing to the return of a stone who will be a sole Dictator who will restore righteous judgments in the Earth.

Alethos · Mar 18, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
The gold head - Babylon

The silver breast and arms - Media

The copper belly and thighs - Persia

The iron legs - Greece

The feet partly of iron and partly of molded clay - The Seleucids and the Ptolemies

The 4 World Empires ONLY

“These great beasts, which are four, are four Kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever” – Daniel 7:17-18

If you understood Dan 2&7 you would see the fourth Kingdom (timeline) ends upon the Lords return. So even if you agree with the above listed Kingdoms you are left no room for your Islalmic 5th Beast. Or are you suggesting the Greeks are Islamic - now I would lilke to this one resolved.

Sorry no fifth beast in Dan 7!

But should better read:

The gold head - Babylon
The silver breast and arms - Media - Persia (two seperate arms)
The copper belly and thighs - Greco
The iron legs - Roman (East and West as history protrays)
The feet partly of iron and partly of molded clay - (Fragmented Rome represented today by the EU and as the scriptures clrearly state the clay is average men and woman who inhabit the earth (who now have power).

Did you notice once again NO FIFTH BEAST only four...Four beasts four Kings NO fifth beast

But I am sure you will try to fit another Beast in wont you?

Alethos

revturmoil · Mar 18, 2011

Its difficult to reason with a man who denies the Roman Empire ever existed. Why are you afraid to admit the legs are Roman?

We should reason together. Up for it!
Don't misquote me. I never said the Roman Empire never existed. Only that it's not represented in the statue! What do you mean afraid??? For 20 years I believed Rome was the Legs of Iron! I'm not denying anything. Wasn't it you who said, "Or better stated "quoting scripture with scripture?"

Your theory disregards Daniel 5:31

"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

It also disregards the little horn.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east,...(this is the area that is in apostasy as we speak)

and toward the pleasant land. (Israel)
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. (Same is said about the Assyrian in Isaiah 14)

The little horn emerges from the Grecian Empire. Not Rome.
Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Maybe you are holding onto your Catholic roots?

No they are historicist. I just don't...or try not to hold any prejudices against churches anyway.

Maybe you are anti Islam

You wrest Scripture so Islam becomes the apostasy when the Scriptures are clear the Apostasy will be Christian.

　

I've been asking you and the others to prove to me that the apostasy has something to do with the church. Just saying so doesn't work.

Islam will never come in the name of Christ? They profess him to nothing more than a prophet.

Maybe a brief history of Islam would help. You really ought to look at it.
A false christ or a false prophet doen't have to come in the literal name of Christ. That's another total interpretational blunder of the people who promote that the harlot is the 'apostate church."

Its clear you are uncertain about much and therefore still finding your way in these prophecies.

That is so very true. If your sure about end-time prophecy and have it all figured out then you're bound to what you believe. You likely would not change your mind. I typically like to bring to the forum the things that I'm "pretty sure about." Nothing is etched in stone. I can only hope people "profit" from my studies as kaotic as they may be.

I have provided very clear scriptures to show the decline in metals is clearly weakening governments:

Nebuchadnezzar - Autocrat
Medo - Persian - 120 Princes etc
Greco - Alexander and his four generals
Roman - Caesar and the senate
Roman fragments in the feet (EU) and the Democratic Peoples of the Earth. (Styled Frog like spirits in Rev 16)

　

You have!!! :blink: ??? OK!

tomwebster · Mar 18, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
....
Yes I do change my mind! YOU?

I have know reason to change my mind, I understand Scripture.

Daniel 2 and Nebu's vision of the statue

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