Daniel 2 and Nebu's vision of the statue

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Alethos

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http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Dan 2.43
The usage of different types of metals has nothing to do with the interpretation of the statue. The iron age came after the bronze age and has nothing to do with the interpretation of the great statue anyway. Rome didn't discover iron. Early Roman weapons were based on Greek types too.

I don't know what clay has to do with this statue. Clay is symbolic of men who allow the potter "God" to form them. What are you getting at???

This proves your interpretation is in error.

Babylon was "Gold" because Gold is the most precious of all metals. In fact his Kingdom was FULL....of GOLD. Absolutely jam pack full of gold. His Kingdom was golden. Your knowledge of the image is very base to say the least.

The head of gold represented Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, Babylon. Just as the king personified the kingdom, so too did its capital city. Isaiah referred to Babylon as "the golden city" (Isaiah 14:4,). Historically, Herodotus noted his amazement at the sheer quantity of gold in Babylon. It seemed to cover nearly everything. Even the walls around the city, remembered for such size and width that two chariots could race on them, were plated with gold. Babylon was rightly represented as the head of gold.

The king called out for the enchanters, astrologers and diviners to be brought and said to these wise men of Babylon, "Whoever reads this writing and tells me what it means will be clothed in purple and have a gold chain placed around his neck, and he will be made the third highest ruler in the kingdom."

Not to mention the golden stature which was made!

It’s all gold...but as you say the metal has nothing to do with the interpretation.

Would you like me to prove the other metals are associated with their respective empires?

You need to rethink your position and remove the Islamic blindfold.

Alethos

 

revturmoil

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This proves your interpretation is in error.

Babylon was "Gold" because Gold is the most precious of all metals. In fact his Kingdom was FULL....of GOLD. Absolutely jam pack full of gold. His Kingdom was golden. Your knowledge of the image is very base to say the least.

The head of gold represented Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, Babylon. Just as the king personified the kingdom, so too did its capital city. Isaiah referred to Babylon as "the golden city" (Isaiah 14:4,). Historically, Herodotus noted his amazement at the sheer quantity of gold in Babylon. It seemed to cover nearly everything. Even the walls around the city, remembered for such size and width that two chariots could race on them, were plated with gold. Babylon was rightly represented as the head of gold.

The king called out for the enchanters, astrologers and diviners to be brought and said to these wise men of Babylon, "Whoever reads this writing and tells me what it means will be clothed in purple and have a gold chain placed around his neck, and he will be made the third highest ruler in the kingdom."

Not to mention the golden stature which was made!

It’s all gold...but as you say the metal has nothing to do with the interpretation.

Would you like me to prove the other metals are associated with their respective empires?

You need to rethink your position and remove the Islamic blindfold.

Alethos

Maybe a brief lesson in hermeneutics 101 would help. When are you going to realize that the metals are simply symbolic of a kingdom. They don't describe the kingdom.
There's no reason for the gold to describe Nebuchadnezzars kingdom since it was already in existence.

You can try to prove what you like. You disregard all of the scriptural evidence. You disregard the definition of the terminology in the passage. Now you're off onto the metals which do not describe the empires. The text describes them. This is getting old. It has become evident that you don't know much about this subject except what you research at the moment. You would rather argue about something you know very little about than look at this objectively and consider changing your mind.
 

Alethos

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Maybe a brief lesson in hermeneutics 101 would help. When are you going to realize that the metals are simply symbolic of a kingdom. They don't describe the kingdom.
There's no reason for the gold to describe Nebuchadnezzars kingdom since it was already in existence.

You can try to prove what you like. You disregard all of the scriptural evidence. You disregard the definition of the terminology in the passage. Now you're off onto the metals which do not describe the empires. The text describes them. This is getting old. It has become evident that you don't know much about this subject except what you research at the moment. You would rather argue about something you know very little about than look at this objectively and consider changing your mind.

Another dead end.

Gold doesnt describe the power and import of the Kingdom?

Jer 6:16

You have made yourself very clear.

Alethos
 

revturmoil

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Another dead end.

Gold doesnt describe the power and import of the Kingdom?

Jer 6:16

You have made yourself very clear.

Alethos


I'm glad. I'm tired of dealing with you.

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
 

revturmoil

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Mat 10:14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.

I accept the the scriptural evidence and the definition of the words in the passage of Daniel 2 and you don't!

Wasn't it you who said, "Let scripture interpret scripture!"

I accept...

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11  Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom as the smaller horn that came up first.

I accept that the word inferior means land.

I accept that the word mixed denotes an Arabian.

You disregard all of the above. And you call yourself 'truth!

This debate with you has become fruitless. You can't overcome the mountain of scriptural evidence...and you don't care about it. Just face it. The truth evades you because you would have to admit you're wrong. Your screen name is a fraud. Scriptural evidence is too often meaningless to Christians when it's in opposition to their beliefs.

Nobody has been able to quote one verse of scripture that implicates Rome as the end time beast. But you don't care!


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
 

Alethos

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I accept the the scriptural evidence and the definition of the words in the passage of Daniel 2 and you don't!

Wasn't it you who said, "Let scripture interpret scripture!"

I accept...

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11  Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom as the smaller horn that came up first.

I accept that the word inferior means land.

I accept that the word mixed denotes an Arabian.

You disregard all of the above. And you call yourself 'truth!

This debate with you has become fruitless. You can't overcome the mountain of scriptural evidence...and you don't care about it. Just face it. The truth evades you because you would have to admit you're wrong. Your screen name is a fraud. Scriptural evidence is too often meaningless to Christians when it's in opposition to their beliefs.

Nobody has been able to quote one verse of scripture that implicates Rome as the end time beast. But you don't care!


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

I genuinely was looking forward to our discussions in this forum. I have found you are only willing to look at this image from one perspective "not only yours" but only consider aspects of the image which relate to your view.

I will give you an example:

[sup]5[/sup] “And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

Can you provide a reason why this animal is raised up on one side?

You have a number of options here? I am keen to see which one you take? The avoidance option? the dismissive option? Or the... its not relevant option?

You would stun me if you gave an interpretation

Alethos

Are we on speaking terms again?

 

revturmoil

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I genuinely was looking forward to our discussions in this forum. I have found you are only willing to look at this image from one perspective "not only yours" but only consider aspects of the image which relate to your view.

I will give you an example:

[sup]5[/sup] “And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

Can you provide a reason why this animal is raised up on one side?

You have a number of options here? I am keen to see which one you take? The avoidance option? the dismissive option? Or the... its not relevant option?

You would stun me if you gave an interpretation

Alethos

Are we on speaking terms again?

I don't mind considering other views or perspectives on anything. In fact I welcome it. But sometimes peoples' perspective gets way outside of an aceptable hermeneutic or a common sense approach of interpretation. One example which you agree with is the idea that the abomination of desolation is 'self-empowerment'. Another example that's beyond an acceptable approach and perspective to consider is this comment of yours.  

If you consider 2 Corinth 12:12 which describes the work of a true Apostle they are almost identical with this verse. I really think this is worthy of deep consideration in terms of the workings of this man of sin. Compare
2 Thess 2:9-10 & 2 Cor 12:12

You make these assertions not realizing that "signs and wonders" are the only terms in the bible that describe miracles. To even consider 2 Thess 2:9-10 & 2 Cor 12:12 linking these two in the same light is absurd. That type of view is outside of a common sense approach to scripture interpretation. That mistake attributes that which is good to that which is evil.

Start a thread on the beast if you want to discuss it. This one is on Daniel 2. I'm sure you'll get seveal views on it.

 

Alethos

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I don't mind considering other views or perspectives on anything. In fact I welcome it. But sometimes peoples' perspective gets way outside of an aceptable hermeneutic or a common sense approach of interpretation. One example which you agree with is the idea that the abomination of desolation is 'self-empowerment'. Another example that's beyond an acceptable approach and perspective to consider is this comment of yours.  



You make these assertions not realizing that "signs and wonders" are the only terms in the bible that describe miracles. To even consider 2 Thess 2:9-10 & 2 Cor 12:12 linking these two in the same light is absurd. That type of view is outside of a common sense approach to scripture interpretation. That mistake attributes that which is good to that which is evil.

Start a thread on the beast if you want to discuss it. This one is on Daniel 2. I'm sure you'll get seveal views on it.

Surely you know this beast in Dan 7 is speaking to the Arms of the image in Dan 2? My Sunday school students understand the four beasts of Dan 7 are Gods view of these four successive Kingdoms, through His eyes. Whereas the Man Image is through the eyes of Neb.

Why the reluctance to provide an interpretation. I opened the door for you to expound your Medo Silver Empire and the Beast which is raised up on one side and turned it down?

You cannot separate Dan 2 & 7!

Alethos
 

revturmoil

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Surely you know this beast in Dan 7 is speaking to the Arms of the image in Dan 2? My Sunday school students understand the four beasts of Dan 7 are Gods view of these four successive Kingdoms, through His eyes. Whereas the Man Image is through the eyes of Neb.

Why the reluctance to provide an interpretation. I opened the door for you to expound your Medo Silver Empire and the Beast which is raised up on one side and turned it down?

You cannot separate Dan 2 & 7!

Alethos

Who say's you cannot separate Daniel 2 and Daniel 7?

Daniel 7:1  ¶In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

2  Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4  The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5  And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6  After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8  I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9  ¶I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Why would it be necessary to have a duplicate of Danile 2 in Daniel 7"?

Why repeat a the same message in two different visions?

Ray Stedman changed his mind on this later in his years. He use to believe that Daniel 2 and 7 depicted the same kingdoms. He later changed his mind and so did I.

You haven't explained your position on this but I assume you're saying the first beast, the lion with Eagles wings, is Babylon.

And the second beast like a bear is Medo Persia..

There are issues with that interpretation.

First problem.

The vision occurs in the first year of Belchazzar who was the last king of the Babylonian Empire and it only lasted a few years after that.

Why would Daniel have a vision of an Empire that was already in existence for decades and on it's way out? Was there something lacking or insufficient about Daniel 2 that God found it necessary to repeat it in Daniel 7?

Second problem.

....and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The word before means in front of.

Example.
God's hand is "stretched out before Him" meaning in front of Him. These beast are all end time beast as they are in front of the ten horned beast.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6925&t=KJV

Out of the more than 35 words for all in the OT Daniel chose this one.
http://www.eliyah.co...&isindex=before
This is all I'm going to say about Daniel 7 because I don't believe it's a repaet of Daniel 2.

 

Alethos

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One might ask the question.

Why did God present four beasts in Daniel 7 and four Beasts in the Revelation? Why terrible looking beasts with horns and ribs?

You see Kaoticprofi, man wouldn’t see himself as a beast, he is too proud, do you Kaoticprofit see yourself as an animal? As a wild beast?

If not, you should follow the lead of those more righteous than you, who have gone before you as examples from which you could learn a great deal in this regard.

David saw himself as a "dead dog," a "flea," or a hunted bird!
Jesus Calls himself a worm Or maggot , and No Man ,

I am yet to see any such humility, which demonstrates your animal position, before your maker.

However, pride and arrogance will blind you from such disposition. Maybe one day you will identify with Nebuchadnezzar who was shown and statue of a powerful image of a man in fleshly glory, standing tall upon the face of the earth.

In other words he viewed the Kingdom through his eyes!

God revealed to him exactly what he looked like through His eyes?

"You (Nebuchadnezzar) will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven...Daniel 4:25

If you are a true disciple of Jesus Christ this will rest on you gently. (2 Corinthians 13:5)

The Persian Bear

The judgement bought upon Belshazzar caused his downfall for both his family and Kingdom. If you see Daniel accused him "the Deity in whose power his breath was, and whose were all his ways, he had not glorified". So God pronounced a sentence upon him. “God hath numbered thy reign, and finished it. God “weighed him in the balances and found wanting” Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians".

The speed of this sentence was very fast for "on that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. And Darius the Median took the kingdom".

History states this transfer of the government occurred around B.C. 54. The purpose was primarily to restore Judah (Israel) and to extend the Kingdom of Men in the Earth. Hence the term "Arise, devour much flesh",

This Persian Bear government dominated an area from India to Ethiopia, which they say covered over a hundred and twenty-seven provinces. Therefore Kaoticprofit, you are correct in saying the reign of the Bear began under a Mede, and in two years passed the inheritance to Cyrus, a Persian. I believe this is provided for in that the bear revealed it raised itself on one side", so one side was "higher than the other". Interesting that it “raised” itself? So before it is “raised” up, the higher side was no higher than the other!!! (Very important). The higher side acquired its position last or after the event, as appears in recorded history. You cannot escape the two (divided) arms and the Bear being “raised” up on one side, answerable to the Medes and Persians. To assume the Babylonian Kingdom was overthrown by two successive empires within a two year period, as to allow you to remove the Roman Terrible Beast, lacks any real historical evidence, not to mention the Bear interprets the arms of Mede and Persian.

What else is interesting about the Bear is "it had three ribs in the mouth of it between its teeth". What could these three ribs represent? We are told in the record of a threefold division to its conquests. "It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom a hundred and twenty princes, who should be over the whole kingdom; and over these, three presidents, of whom Daniel was chief: that the princes might give account to them, and the king (the Bear-Mouth) should have no damage".

These three presidencies, spoken of during this empire of silver dominion are the ribs in the mouth of the Bear. Lastly and more of a more general note it is interesting that in latter times the Bear became a symbol of the Persians.

I appreciate your motives for not including the Roman Terrible Beast in the image, however the weight of evidence in regards to history, metals and beasts, provide sufficient evidence of Roman Legs and Mixed Roman & Clay feet.

Therfore

Babylon – Medo-Persian – Grecian – Roman ------------------------------------Christ return as a stone cut without hands and a mountain to fill the whole earth.

He will discipline the Apostate Church and all those who dissociated themselves from the true Jesus Christ. The one spoken of who had nowhere to lay his head. A man of sorrows and of no reputation. Not “one” full of church dogma’s and false theologies, which shackle men and women with chains of fear and servitude, like the Pharisee of old who removed the key of salvation by taking away the priesthood. They also prayed in dresses, using repetitions and kissing Bibles etc. If you have seen “statues” of Mary unloaded from trucks, where toes are missing having been kissed by millions of misguided believers?

You say it Greece upon which the Image stands and I say it’s Rome.

Time will tell.

Alethos
 

revturmoil

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Ray Stedman? Is he an expert?

Lets stay with the Word which is suffecient for us all.

Yes! He's more of an expert than you or I. I am staying with the Word, and so is Ray Stedman. He also has the virtue of not being bound to what he believes. He was willing to change his mind as he understood things better. That virtue evades most Christian's today.

Too many people like yourself adamantly adhere to what they believe rather than reconsider and possibly learn something new. They believe they already have this all figured out.
You are in that catergory. You won't budge regarsless of the scriptural evidence yet you are alway's the one telling me to stick to it! And you are the one quoting Josephus and Herodotus over biblical history!

Start a thread on Daniel 7 and see where it goes!
 

revturmoil

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One might ask the question.

Why did God present four beasts in Daniel 7 and four Beasts in the Revelation? Why terrible looking beasts with horns and ribs?

You see Kaoticprofi, man wouldn’t see himself as a beast, he is too proud, do you Kaoticprofit see yourself as an animal? As a wild beast?

If not, you should follow the lead of those more righteous than you, who have gone before you as examples from which you could learn a great deal in this regard.

David saw himself as a "dead dog," a "flea," or a hunted bird!
Jesus Calls himself a worm Or maggot , and No Man ,

I am yet to see any such humility, which demonstrates your animal position, before your maker.

However, pride and arrogance will blind you from such disposition. Maybe one day you will identify with Nebuchadnezzar who was shown and statue of a powerful image of a man in fleshly glory, standing tall upon the face of the earth.

In other words he viewed the Kingdom through his eyes!

God revealed to him exactly what he looked like through His eyes?

"You (Nebuchadnezzar) will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven...Daniel 4:25

If you are a true disciple of Jesus Christ this will rest on you gently. (2 Corinthians 13:5)

The Persian Bear

The judgement bought upon Belshazzar caused his downfall for both his family and Kingdom. If you see Daniel accused him "the Deity in whose power his breath was, and whose were all his ways, he had not glorified". So God pronounced a sentence upon him. “God hath numbered thy reign, and finished it. God “weighed him in the balances and found wanting” Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians".

The speed of this sentence was very fast for "on that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. And Darius the Median took the kingdom".

History states this transfer of the government occurred around B.C. 54. The purpose was primarily to restore Judah (Israel) and to extend the Kingdom of Men in the Earth. Hence the term "Arise, devour much flesh",

This Persian Bear government dominated an area from India to Ethiopia, which they say covered over a hundred and twenty-seven provinces. Therefore Kaoticprofit, you are correct in saying the reign of the Bear began under a Mede, and in two years passed the inheritance to Cyrus, a Persian. I believe this is provided for in that the bear revealed it raised itself on one side", so one side was "higher than the other". Interesting that it “raised” itself? So before it is “raised” up, the higher side was no higher than the other!!! (Very important). The higher side acquired its position last or after the event, as appears in recorded history. You cannot escape the two (divided) arms and the Bear being “raised” up on one side, answerable to the Medes and Persians. To assume the Babylonian Kingdom was overthrown by two successive empires within a two year period, as to allow you to remove the Roman Terrible Beast, lacks any real historical evidence, not to mention the Bear interprets the arms of Mede and Persian.

What else is interesting about the Bear is "it had three ribs in the mouth of it between its teeth". What could these three ribs represent? We are told in the record of a threefold division to its conquests. "It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom a hundred and twenty princes, who should be over the whole kingdom; and over these, three presidents, of whom Daniel was chief: that the princes might give account to them, and the king (the Bear-Mouth) should have no damage".

These three presidencies, spoken of during this empire of silver dominion are the ribs in the mouth of the Bear. Lastly and more of a more general note it is interesting that in latter times the Bear became a symbol of the Persians.

I appreciate your motives for not including the Roman Terrible Beast in the image, however the weight of evidence in regards to history, metals and beasts, provide sufficient evidence of Roman Legs and Mixed Roman & Clay feet.

Therfore

Babylon – Medo-Persian – Grecian – Roman ------------------------------------Christ return as a stone cut without hands and a mountain to fill the whole earth.

He will discipline the Apostate Church and all those who dissociated themselves from the true Jesus Christ. The one spoken of who had nowhere to lay his head. A man of sorrows and of no reputation. Not “one” full of church dogma’s and false theologies, which shackle men and women with chains of fear and servitude, like the Pharisee of old who removed the key of salvation by taking away the priesthood. They also prayed in dresses, using repetitions and kissing Bibles etc. If you have seen “statues” of Mary unloaded from trucks, where toes are missing having been kissed by millions of misguided believers?

You say it Greece upon which the Image stands and I say it’s Rome.

Time will tell.

Alethos

I don't see Rome mentioned in any prophecy whether New or Old Testament, whether major or minor prophet.

Would it be asking too much to have you quote just one verse that proves Rome Italy would have anything to do with any prophecy of the last days!

Psalms 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9 ¶Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.

Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all....

Who does God say He will raise up in the last days? The Roman's or the Babylonian's?

Habakkuk 1:6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, (Babylonian's) that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs. (World domination)

Where do you see Rome in any of this?

The king of fierce countenance in Daniel 8 is said to come from Greece. Not Rome!

Show me Rome anywhere in end-time prophecy!

Rome's undenialble past has influenced the prophetic perception of Protestant's. You are living in the past. Rome no longer persecutes people. Islam will murder more Christian's today than The RCC has in a hundered years and neither are they a threat to the world.

Scriptural evidence doesn't matter to you so I doubt anything else will.

And by the way. There's no such thing as "the apostate church."

 

Alethos

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I don't see Rome mentioned in any prophecy whether New or Old Testament, whether major or minor prophet.

Would it be asking too much to have you quote just one verse that proves Rome Italy would have anything to do with any prophecy of the last days!

Psalms 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9 ¶Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.

Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all....

Who does God say He will raise up in the last days? The Roman's or the Babylonian's?

Habakkuk 1:6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, (Babylonian's) that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs. (World domination)

Where do you see Rome in any of this?

The king of fierce countenance in Daniel 8 is said to come from Greece. Not Rome!

Show me Rome anywhere in end-time prophecy!

Rome's undenialble past has influenced the prophetic perception of Protestant's. You are living in the past. Rome no longer persecutes people. Islam will murder more Christian's today than The RCC has in a hundered years and neither are they a threat to the world.

Scriptural evidence doesn't matter to you so I doubt anything else will.

And by the way. There's no such thing as "the apostate church."


Ever questioned why the fourth beast in Dan 7 is not named?

And BTW if you knew Pagan Roman history & Holy Roman Catholic Church history, your comments about Islam would be retracted very quickly concerning the death of first century saints. You have a froward mouth that speaks great swelling words!

Holy Roman Catholic Church...it’s sad they cannot escape being founded upon pagan Rome.

They are full of apostasy and you are blind if you defend her many articles and traditions.

As the Lord said to the Pharisees so he will also speak to the RCC.

"a brood of vipers"

At least Islam worship one God...they are closer to Yahweh than RCC who invented the trinity one of the most putrid doctrines which came out of Constantine treaties! He initiated Easter also! and many more pagan festivals. But conveniently you don’t know anything about this do you?

Alethos


 

revturmoil

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Ever questioned why the fourth beast in Dan 7 is not named?

And BTW if you knew Pagan Roman history & Holy Roman Catholic Church history, your comments about Islam would be retracted very quickly concerning the death of first century saints. You have a froward mouth that speaks great swelling words!

Holy Roman Catholic Church...it’s sad they cannot escape being founded upon pagan Rome.

They are full of apostasy and you are blind if you defend her many articles and traditions.

As the Lord said to the Pharisees so he will also speak to the RCC.

"a brood of vipers"

At least Islam worship one God...they are closer to Yahweh than RCC who invented the trinity one of the most putrid doctrines which came out of Constantine treaties! He initiated Easter also! and many more pagan festivals. But conveniently you don’t know anything about this do you?

Alethos

You are one very misled individual to make the statement you've just made. The next time I'm in a Catholic church I'll remember what you said and pray against you!

I'll no longer reply to any of your false doctrine or evil beliefs. Have fun in your deception!

Bye and you are on my ignore list! it's been real. It's been fun. It just hasn't been "real fun!"

See ya and I'll deal with you no more as you are absolutely deceived and a liar! You have no truth in you.
 

Alethos

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You are one very misled individual to make the statement you've just made. The next time I'm in a Catholic church I'll remember what you said and pray against you!

I'll no longer reply to any of your false doctrine or evil beliefs. Have fun in your deception!

Bye and you are on my ignore list! it's been real. It's been fun. It just hasn't been "real fun!"

See ya and I'll deal with you no more as you are absolutely deceived and a liar! You have no truth in you.

Your response reminds me of the Pharisees who became angry at the Lords teachings. You cannot deny the Holy Roman Catholic Church has pagan foundations.

Surely you are not that naive?

Where does the Roman aspect of the church come from?

Rome?

All who are reading this are surely thinking the same. I mean any Catholic reading this must admit the Churches origins are Roman (Pagan)

this is basic history, everyone knows the RCC has pagan origins even history has recorded it thus.

He (Charlemagne) is numbered as Charles I in the regnal lists of Germany (where he is known as Karl der Große), the Holy Roman Empire, and France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

I am genuinely surprised at your response given the share weight of historical evidence of RCC being founded upon Pagan Rome. The whole development of the Holy Roman Empire as it progress from being Roman - Papacy and them the combination of Rome and Papacy under Pope Leo and Charlemanagne where it became the HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.



From Rev 6-19 is all about the developement of the Roman Beasts until its destroyed upon Christs coming.

Do you know something about history that the rest of the world doesn’t?

Alethos.

 

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Keeping Jerusalem in mind as an area of beast control when reading about the beast kingdoms of Daniel, history is easily revealed.
That final beast kingdom of ten toes is about control over the nations upon the entire earth.


The interpretation of the meaning of the final kingdom of man as represented by the base of Daniels' statue is not complex.
Unfortunately, personal bias makes it so.

Those who believe the Holy See is the root of all evil interpret the papacy or the city of Rome itself as the foundation of the last empire.
Quite a few popular novels use that logic or a variation of it.
The problem is that it doesn't quite fit with Biblical prophecy and what we see in the physical world.

Jesus said that we need to watch the seasons, meaning that scripture alone will not tell the tale.
The most accurate interpretation will be the one that combines scripture and current events WITHOUT BIAS.

Examine all the national groups and alliances of history as well as our present day. There is only ONE that FITS the pattern established by Daniels' vision; the United Nations.

The clay indicates a loose mingling of nations; a confederacy if you will.
The iron clearly indicates military power very much like that of Rome.

Members of the United Nations grant portions of their sovereign power to the use of the whole, including the support and use of military power.
The biggest single fact which argues in favor of this interpretation is that EVERY NATION ON EARTH IS A MEMBER.

* * * BINGO * * *

When was the last time you drove down the street and stopped at a traffic light? The design of the traffic light (red on top, yellow in the middle and green on the bottom) is a global UN mandate. Every time you drive down the street your life is regulated to some extent by this small example of the global kingdom. Next time you find yourself stopped at an intersection, waiting out the light, think about it. You can't move until the UN says so (figuratively of course).

The final kingdom of man is here and now; no guessing, no rocket science and no mistake.

It gets me really excited because I know what's next.