Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?

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archaeologist5

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Mar 3, 2011
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It's not out of context. It is perfectly clear. Context is a common excuse for unbelief.

i have learned that you do not know what you are talking about and have no clue about what 'context' is.

Yes, God's Word the NT is consistent. And no Christian in the NT killed anyone for any reason. Many of them died though

so your Bible is limited to only the NT is it. hmmm, so you have no creation or flood accounts to have give the foundation the NT needs. i also see that you think you were present in the 1st century and know exactly what every christian did during their lives...hmmm.... i think you need to get some real spiritual counselling to help you.

God is faithful to we who believe His promises. We don't need to kill others. That is Satan's way. Christians are merciful
.

yes He is but the verse you are quoting is NOT a promise. no, we do not need to but it happens are you prepared for it when it does to you? do you know how to handle it? yuou really do not know how to apply the word 'merciful ' do you? killing someone is not always an act of justice or punishment. you have a lot to learn yet before you make such statements like you do.

I'm nobody. But Jesus doesn't give Christians permission to kill others. If you have NT proof then present it. You don't. You can find excuses to kill if you want to, but it won't fly on Judgment Day.

that is right, you are nobody and you do not have a say in telling others what they can or cannot do. you do not know what Jesus has given them permission to do and you do not apply scripture properly so please refrain from telling anyone what to do for you are NOT a spiritual authority. your limiting the Bible to the NT is sin as well and disobedient to the commands found in both deut. and rev.

There are no excuses for Christians killing anyone. None. The Apostles were murdered. NT Christians were murdered. None fought back.

you really have to watch these type of statements. you are not God and do not know what took place in the 1st century. you also need to take lessons from Jesus who, when a roman soldier came up to ask for healing of his slave, said 'greater faith have i not found in all of israel'. Jesus did not withhold praise or healing from the soldier who probably killed people..

you really need to get under some spiritual counseling and grow in Christ a lot more.

It is so sad to see how Satan has deceived professing Christians into being afraid to trust in the living God of the Bible.

you also need to learn how to talk to others properly and learn a lot of humility for you know far less than you think you know. your leap to a conclusion there is very wrong and falsely accuses people who are christians simply because they disagree with you and see holes in your thinking. you need to listen to jacob t for heis giving you sound advice. your ignoring of certain scriptures shows that you are either very immature as a believer or someone who doesn't believe at all and has lied to get on this forum.
 

Duckybill

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Feb 12, 2010
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i have learned that you do not know what you are talking about and have no clue about what 'context' is.
The context does not change the meaning of Jesus perfectly clear statement, in fact it confirms it.

Matthew 5:39 (NASB)
[sup]39 [/sup]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
so your Bible is limited to only the NT is it. hmmm, so you have no creation or flood accounts to have give the foundation the NT needs.

What does the Flood and Creation have to do with this???
i also see that you think you were present in the 1st century and know exactly what every christian did during their lives...hmmm.... i think you need to get some real spiritual counselling to help you.
Does that mean you don't believe the NT is God's Word? Or you just don't want to talk about it?
yes He is but the verse you are quoting is NOT a promise.

Which verse?
no, we do not need to but it happens are you prepared for it when it does to you? do you know how to handle it? yuou really do not know how to apply the word 'merciful ' do you? killing someone is not always an act of justice or punishment. you have a lot to learn yet before you make such statements like you do.
I know that if we don't give mercy to others we won't get mercy from God.

Matthew 5:7 (NASB)
[sup]7 [/sup]"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
that is right, you are nobody and you do not have a say in telling others what they can or cannot do.

And neither do you. I can tell them what God said and let them do what they want to do, obey God or not.
you do not know what Jesus has given them permission to do and you do not apply scripture properly so please refrain from telling anyone what to do for you are NOT a spiritual authority. your limiting the Bible to the NT is sin as well and disobedient to the commands found in both deut. and rev.
You're not very fond of quoting Scripture to back you up, are you? And so you are just giving your opinion.
you really have to watch these type of statements. you are not God and do not know what took place in the 1st century. you also need to take lessons from Jesus who, when a roman soldier came up to ask for healing of his slave, said 'greater faith have i not found in all of israel'. Jesus did not withhold praise or healing from the soldier who probably killed people..

you really need to get under some spiritual counseling and grow in Christ a lot more.
Again you avoid Scripture. Jesus is my Counselor.

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
[sup]6 [/sup]For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
you also need to learn how to talk to others properly and learn a lot of humility for you know far less than you think you know. your leap to a conclusion there is very wrong and falsely accuses people who are christians simply because they disagree with you and see holes in your thinking. you need to listen to jacob t for heis giving you sound advice. your ignoring of certain scriptures shows that you are either very immature as a believer or someone who doesn't believe at all and has lied to get on this forum.

So basically all you have to say are personal insults and avoid Scripture to back you. You are looking for excuses to kill, but you won't find any in the NT.
 

Doppleganger

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Mar 21, 2010
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Listen Simon was a Zealot, and Paul was Zealous TOO!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-men' or later contract-killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group of the Jewish Zealots, who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea using concealed daggers (sicae).

The Sicarii used stealth tactics to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sica, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection.

In the name of Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis, of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to - in this case to the sicarii. This meaning is lost when the Greek Gospels are translated into modern Hebrew: Judas is rendered as "Ish-Kerayot," making him a man from the townships. Robert Eisenman presents the general view of secular historians (Eisenman p 179) in identifying him instead as "Judas the Sicarios". Most of the consonants and vowels tally—in Josephus, Sicarioi/Sicariōn; in the New Testament Iscariot.

http://en.wikipedia....imon_the_Zealot
The apostle called Simon Zelotes, Simon the Zealot, in Luke 6:15 and Acts 1:13; and Simon Kananaios or Simon Cananeus ("Simon" signifying "hearkening; listening"), was one of the most obscure among the apostles of Jesus. To distinguish him from Simon Peter, he is called Kananaios, or Kananites (Matthew 10:4; Mark 3:18), and in the list of apostles in Luke 6:15, repeated in Acts 1:13, Zelotes, the "Zealot". Both titles derive from the Hebrew word qana, meaning The Zealous.

Robert Eisenman has pointed out contemporary talmudic references to Zealots as kanna'im "but not really as a group — rather as avenging priests in the Temple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry
The term Zealot, in Hebrew kanai (frequently used in plural form, (kana'im)), means one who is zealous on behalf of God. The term derives from Greek (zelotes), "emulator, zealous admirer or follower".

Josephus' Jewish Antiquities states that there were three main Jewish sects at this time, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes. The Zealots were a "fourth sect", founded by Judas of Galilee (also called Judas of Gamala) and Zadok the Pharisee in the year 6 against Quirinius' tax reform, shortly after the Roman Empire declared what had most recently been the territory of Herod Archelaus, to be a Roman Province, and that they "agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." (18.1.6)

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia: Hezekiah, the father of Judas the Galilean, had an organized band of so-called "robbers" which made war against the Idumean Herod ("B. J." i. 10, § 5; "Ant." xiv. 9, § 2), and also during the reign of Herod, if not long before by the fact that the system of religious and political murders practised by the Zealots was in existence during the reign of Herod, if not long before.

According to historian H.H. Ben-Sasson, the Sicarii, originally based in Galilee, "were fighting for a social revolution, while the Jerusalem Zealots placed less stress on the social aspect" and the Sicarii "never attached themselves to one particular family and never proclaimed any of their leaders king". Both groups objected to the way the priestly families were running the Temple.

The term sicariii also referred to a class of gladiators who fought with a long, curved knife.

Taking the Greek word zelotes in Acts 22:3 and Galatians 1:14 of the New Testament to mean a 'Zealot' with capital Z (the earliest Greek manuscripts are uncials or all capital letters), an article by Mark R. Fairchild suggests that Paul the Apostle may have been a Zealot, which might have been the driving force behind his persecution of the Christians (see stoning of Saint Stephen) before his conversion to Christianity, and his incident at Antioch even after his conversion.

While most English translations of the Bible render this Greek word as the adjective "zealous", the word is a noun meaning 'adherent, loyalist, enthusiast; patriot, zealot'. A 'Zealot' with capital Z, however, would suggest a member of the particular Zealots, the group that emerged in Jerusalem ca. AD 6 according to Josephus

http://www.jewishenc...tid=49&letter=Z
The name "Kanna'im" occurs twice in the Talmud: (where the other version has ["Sicarii"]). The former passage contains a statute, evidently of the Maccabean time, declaring that "Whosoever steals the libation cup [Num. iv. 7 or curses one with the aid of the Holy Name [Lev. xxiv. 16, Sifra] or has sexual intercourse with a Syrian [heathen] woman shall be felled by the Kanna'im or Zealots."

This is explained in the Talmud to mean that, while the acts mentioned are not causes for criminal procedure, they fall into the same category as did the crime of Zimri the son of Salu, whom Phinehas, because "he was zealous for his God," slew (Num. xxv. 11-14).

Phinehas is set up as a pattern, being called "Kanna'i ben Kanna'i" (a Zealot, the son of a Zealot), inasmuch as he followed the example of Levi, the son of Jacob, who avenged the crime perpetrated upon Dinah by killing the men of Shechem (where Levi is said to have been chosen for the priesthood because he was zealous in executing vengeance upon the enemies of Israel, and Judith ix. 2-4, where Simeon as ancestor of Judith is praised for his zealous act).

idiot Judas who seemed rather passive, betrayed our LORD, probably in collusion with the Pharisee's. Aren't you a little too Zealous Ducky?
 

archaeologist5

New Member
Mar 3, 2011
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The context does not change the meaning of Jesus perfectly clear statement, in fact it confirms it.

according to your application of the verse you quote, you would, once your wife was raped by a stranger, give him your daughter for him to rape as well. clearly you are not thinking things through and abuse scripture to defend your personal opinion and not the truth.

What does the Flood and Creation have to do with this???

a lot, Jesus said if they do not believe moses how will they believe me. you really do not grasp how scriptures work together do you and have tossed the old testament because it doesn't fit your opinions.

And neither do you. I can tell them what God said and let them do what they want to do, obey God or not.

your words really are not grounded in God and it doesn't matter how many verses you quote if you do not use them correctly.

You're not very fond of quoting Scripture to back you up, are you? And so you are just giving your opinion.

your dismissal of my words is telling and that you just want to do the battle of the verses and you will not listen to anything that explains what they mean.

Again you avoid Scripture. Jesus is my Counselor

and you are a child who really doesn't know what he is talking about.

So basically all you have to say are personal insults and avoid Scripture to back you. You are looking for excuses to kill, but you won't find any in the NT.

wrong again, scripture has to be used properly and not just tossed out there for the sake of quoting them. we do not use verses to do battle we look at scriptures to see what they say and we do not omit the old testament because it suits one's fancy or they do not like it or use it when it benefits you.

you sound like a person who rejects spirit led men appointed by God to teachothers because you look upon their humanness and not the Holy Spirit in them helping them to speak the truth. you have a lot to learn.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
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Listen Simon was a Zealot, and Paul was Zealous TOO!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-men' or later contract-killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group of the Jewish Zealots, who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea using concealed daggers (sicae).

The Sicarii used stealth tactics to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sica, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection.

In the name of Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis, of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to - in this case to the sicarii. This meaning is lost when the Greek Gospels are translated into modern Hebrew: Judas is rendered as "Ish-Kerayot," making him a man from the townships. Robert Eisenman presents the general view of secular historians (Eisenman p 179) in identifying him instead as "Judas the Sicarios". Most of the consonants and vowels tally—in Josephus, Sicarioi/Sicariōn; in the New Testament Iscariot.

http://en.wikipedia....imon_the_Zealot
The apostle called Simon Zelotes, Simon the Zealot, in Luke 6:15 and Acts 1:13; and Simon Kananaios or Simon Cananeus ("Simon" signifying "hearkening; listening"), was one of the most obscure among the apostles of Jesus. To distinguish him from Simon Peter, he is called Kananaios, or Kananites (Matthew 10:4; Mark 3:18), and in the list of apostles in Luke 6:15, repeated in Acts 1:13, Zelotes, the "Zealot". Both titles derive from the Hebrew word qana, meaning The Zealous.

Robert Eisenman has pointed out contemporary talmudic references to Zealots as kanna'im "but not really as a group — rather as avenging priests in the Temple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry
The term Zealot, in Hebrew kanai (frequently used in plural form, (kana'im)), means one who is zealous on behalf of God. The term derives from Greek (zelotes), "emulator, zealous admirer or follower".

Josephus' Jewish Antiquities states that there were three main Jewish sects at this time, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes. The Zealots were a "fourth sect", founded by Judas of Galilee (also called Judas of Gamala) and Zadok the Pharisee in the year 6 against Quirinius' tax reform, shortly after the Roman Empire declared what had most recently been the territory of Herod Archelaus, to be a Roman Province, and that they "agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." (18.1.6)

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia: Hezekiah, the father of Judas the Galilean, had an organized band of so-called "robbers" which made war against the Idumean Herod ("B. J." i. 10, § 5; "Ant." xiv. 9, § 2), and also during the reign of Herod, if not long before by the fact that the system of religious and political murders practised by the Zealots was in existence during the reign of Herod, if not long before.

According to historian H.H. Ben-Sasson, the Sicarii, originally based in Galilee, "were fighting for a social revolution, while the Jerusalem Zealots placed less stress on the social aspect" and the Sicarii "never attached themselves to one particular family and never proclaimed any of their leaders king". Both groups objected to the way the priestly families were running the Temple.

The term sicariii also referred to a class of gladiators who fought with a long, curved knife.

Taking the Greek word zelotes in Acts 22:3 and Galatians 1:14 of the New Testament to mean a 'Zealot' with capital Z (the earliest Greek manuscripts are uncials or all capital letters), an article by Mark R. Fairchild suggests that Paul the Apostle may have been a Zealot, which might have been the driving force behind his persecution of the Christians (see stoning of Saint Stephen) before his conversion to Christianity, and his incident at Antioch even after his conversion.

While most English translations of the Bible render this Greek word as the adjective "zealous", the word is a noun meaning 'adherent, loyalist, enthusiast; patriot, zealot'. A 'Zealot' with capital Z, however, would suggest a member of the particular Zealots, the group that emerged in Jerusalem ca. AD 6 according to Josephus

http://www.jewishenc...tid=49&letter=Z
The name "Kanna'im" occurs twice in the Talmud: (where the other version has ["Sicarii"]). The former passage contains a statute, evidently of the Maccabean time, declaring that "Whosoever steals the libation cup [Num. iv. 7 or curses one with the aid of the Holy Name [Lev. xxiv. 16, Sifra] or has sexual intercourse with a Syrian [heathen] woman shall be felled by the Kanna'im or Zealots."

This is explained in the Talmud to mean that, while the acts mentioned are not causes for criminal procedure, they fall into the same category as did the crime of Zimri the son of Salu, whom Phinehas, because "he was zealous for his God," slew (Num. xxv. 11-14).

Phinehas is set up as a pattern, being called "Kanna'i ben Kanna'i" (a Zealot, the son of a Zealot), inasmuch as he followed the example of Levi, the son of Jacob, who avenged the crime perpetrated upon Dinah by killing the men of Shechem (where Levi is said to have been chosen for the priesthood because he was zealous in executing vengeance upon the enemies of Israel, and Judith ix. 2-4, where Simeon as ancestor of Judith is praised for his zealous act).

idiot Judas who seemed rather passive, betrayed our LORD, probably in collusion with the Pharisee's. Aren't you a little too Zealous Ducky?
No Christian in the NT killed anyone. You still have not given any NT proof.

Luke 6:27-29 (NASB)
[sup]27 [/sup]"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [sup]28 [/sup]bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [sup]29 [/sup]"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also;

 

KingdomCome

New Member
Sep 13, 2010
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I am born again. I see the Kingdom of God. Moreover, I am raised with Christ and I live in the Kingdom. The Kingdom is here, on this planet Earth...for those who believe. In the Kingdom there is no death. I find no need, nor do I find reason to kill. Jesus Christ is my Saviour — I will follow Him.

Rev 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Mat 18:
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I will never, on my own, or come together with another in the cause of death — I have been given to see eternal life — mine eye is single. I am past the terribleness of the "end times" (plural) — I see the singularity of the "end" who is Christ Jesus the "Light of the World" a place where there is no night.

Lu 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
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according to your application of the verse you quote, you would, once your wife was raped by a stranger, give him your daughter for him to rape as well. clearly you are not thinking things through and abuse scripture to defend your personal opinion and not the truth.
Why do you assume that God won't show up?
a lot, Jesus said if they do not believe moses how will they believe me. you really do not grasp how scriptures work together do you and have tossed the old testament because it doesn't fit your opinions.

your words really are not grounded in God and it doesn't matter how many verses you quote if you do not use them correctly.
None of which is valid excuse to disobey Jesus.

Luke 6:27-29 (NASB)
[sup]27 [/sup]"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [sup]28 [/sup]bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [sup]29 [/sup]"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.
your dismissal of my words is telling and that you just want to do the battle of the verses and you will not listen to anything that explains what they mean.
The key phrase is "my words". I'm interested in God's Words.

Luke 9:54-56 (NASB)
[sup]54 [/sup]When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" [sup]55 [/sup]But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; [sup]56 [/sup]for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."]
and you are a child who really doesn't know what he is talking about.

Sounds like a child wrote that statement.
wrong again, scripture has to be used properly and not just tossed out there for the sake of quoting them. we do not use verses to do battle we look at scriptures to see what they say and we do not omit the old testament because it suits one's fancy or they do not like it or use it when it benefits you.
I'm not under the Law of Moses. Are you?
you sound like a person who rejects spirit led men appointed by God to teachothers because you look upon their humanness and not the Holy Spirit in them helping them to speak the truth. you have a lot to learn.
Again, you give no NT proof. That's because you don't have any.

Romans 12:17-21 (NASB)
[sup]17 [/sup]Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. [sup]18 [/sup]If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. [sup]19 [/sup]Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. [sup]20 [/sup]"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." [sup]21 [/sup]Do not be overcome by evil, but OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD.

 

Thankful 1

New Member
Dec 2, 2010
505
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I am born again. I see the Kingdom of God. Moreover, I am raised with Christ and I live in the Kingdom. The Kingdom is here, on this planet Earth...for those who believe. In the Kingdom there is no death. I find no need, nor do I find reason to kill. Jesus Christ is my Saviour — I will follow Him.

Rev 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Mat 18:
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I will never, on my own, or come together with another in the cause of death — I have been given to see eternal life — mine eye is single. I am past the terribleness of the "end times" (plural) — I see the singularity of the "end" who is Christ Jesus the "Light of the World" a place where there is no night.

Lu 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
You say that you are a Christian. I wonder, do you deliberately still commit sin? If so then John tells you that you have never seen God nor do you know God. Not only that but if you deliberately commit sin you are not of God but of Satan.



(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “ Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”



(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”
 

HammerStone

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I'll go ahead and admit, this is a topic that I get downright angry about. I formulated a reply yesterday, and just had to let it go...

I'll try something more appropriate of a Christian and administrator today.

Number one. All of the absurd remarks about no Christian ever killed anyone under any circumstance in the NT ignores two obvious things. We know the truth of the OT in light of Matthew 5 which clearly says not only will you not kill without cause[/] (IE: murder), but you won't be angry at someone without cause. I love the ESV because it renders the word what it should be - murder. Note that the same word is used elsewhere and it always refers to murder, not killing. There is a distinction of the two words, go look it up, even our language of English maintains this. Here are all 13 occurrences of that word:

[bible]
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
Mat 19:18 He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
Mat 23:31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Mat 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
Mar 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'"
Luk 18:20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'"
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Jam 2:11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 4:2 You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.
Jam 5:6 You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you.
[/bible]

It either occurs with a listing of the Commandments themselves (which is, at best, ambiguous to either argument) or it clearly occurs in a case where the righteous are murdered. (IE: The prophets, etc.) Murder means specifically unjustified killing which covers a wide range of things - anger, malice, envy, etc. There are simply no New Testament examples of people killing others because loved ones were threatened with rape and other horrors. So let's drop the no killing in any scenario remark because it's a total hyperbole based on a personal interpretation of the word kill/murder. You're essentially inferring a negative while ignoring the examples. There are many things the Bible is silent on yet we can learn from other scenarios. For example, Jesus instructed the disciples to have a couple swords. (Luke 22:36-38) That's a bad example if Jesus was the post-killing-under-any-circumstance Christian. I'd have to say Christ is pretty straight on in all of his examples, accounting for images and aspects we'd never even understand.

In fact, for all you liberals out there, if you sit by and let a sin take place - as you well know - you are just as guilty. I see that argument applied to a wide range of things like hunger, poverty, global warming, etc. so let's just be consistent. Forgive my "French" here, but this turns into a darned if you do and darned if you don't scenario by the above logic. On top of that, would you not say it's alright for a starving man to steal something for his family in the event of a hurricane (al-la Katrina) or some other great need? Ah, but remember that Christ said we should not steal!

I just have to say, I don't have much respect for anyone who'd let someone murder their wife, rape their daughters, or molest their sons and simply stand by. Just hope to goodness that the wrong people don't find your address with statements like that - I will pray for you there because there are evil people in the world, and just like the Tower of Siloam, bad things do happen that we have to be ready to address as a Christian.
 
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Foreigner

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I just have to say, I don't have much respect for anyone who'd let someone murder their wife, rape their daughters, or molest their sons and simply stand by. Just hope to goodness that the wrong people don't find your address with statements like that - I will pray for you there because there are evil people in the world, and just like the Tower of Siloam, bad things do happen that we have to be ready to address as a Christian.


-- Amen.
 

Thankful 1

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Yes I can see it now when on the last day and you meet Jesus, and he asks you: Do you love me? Then he will till you that to love him was to hear his Word and live that Word.



(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”







You then tell Jesus that you believed it your duty and right to harm someone to protect your family and country.



Then Jesus may remind you of the following verse.



(Matthew 10:37-39) “ "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
 

KingdomCome

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You say that you are a Christian. I wonder, do you deliberately still commit sin? If so then John tells you that you have never seen God nor do you know God. Not only that but if you deliberately commit sin you are not of God but of Satan.

(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “ Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”
Yes, I say that I am a Christian...a follower of Christ...willing to give my life for another.

It seems to me that we must hate another in order to kill them...Christ Jesus loves me, even though I am a sinner. I have been given to make the choice to love even those who hate me. Therefore, I shall endeavor to, in all of my labors toward our day of rest, give life to my fellow man...Christ Jesus is the Life I give. Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I will follow my Saviour Christ Jesus...He killed no person...He gave Life even to His enemy.

1Jo 3:
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Joh 3:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 

HammerStone

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Yes I can see it now when on the last day and you meet Jesus, and he asks you: Do you love me? Then he will till you that to love him was to hear his Word and live that Word.

That's just it, you're stuck in a false paradigm, so my above post already addresses that issue. Pretending to speak for Jesus does not change that. That's a pretty stiff rebuke based on one issue, but since you'd choose to declare self defense an unforgivable sin, I think the self-defined nature of your religion is clear. I hope and pray never to have to take a life, but if they threaten the life of those around me, I will do it and I will gladly answer to Christ for it. Biblically speaking, his response will be a good bit different from your scenario.
 

HammerStone

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Right, and if read in context it clearly talks about "you" - I don't see the part about resisting evil done to others?

Context, context, and more context. Quoting a verse out of context and in a complete vacuum won't change the meeting. The sad part about those who quote Matthew 5 in the liberal tradition simply don't realize that Christ was talking about being a Christian. A slap in the face is not a knife in your heart or a knife in your wife's heart. Being sued does not kill you. Persecution is not always death.
 

HammerStone

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If God ever saw fit to bring me to the gallows or to the firing squad for him, so be it.

If a criminal breaks into my house to kill me, he will die.