Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?

archaeologist5 said:

a simply worthless response to my post and the continual quoted of the same out of context verse doesn't make his point true. a few comments:

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Not liking what Jesus said doesn't make it "out of context". That's a VERY common tactic.

an out of context and off topic question, addressing nothing that was stated in the quote above it in that post. it makes the above quoted poster look like he thinks he is greater than God and gets to say what Christians can or cannot do inspite of what God says or where he calls people.

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And still, you have no NT to back you.

a total distortion and misrepresentation of what was said and totally not a christian response.

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I quoted you.

complete heresy and contradicts john 3:16.

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You should try reading the Sermon on Mount. After Jesus said "Do not resist the evil person", He went on to say those who do not obey His words will not inherit the Kingdom of God. You'll find that in Mt. 7. MANY will call Him Lord and He will reject them, forever.

completely off topic...

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Guess you didn't notice the topic is "Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?"

Duckybill said:

I already answered that but I'll repeat. You even answered it yourself, "

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Duckybill said:

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me, 'And he was reckoned among the transgressors". It was to fulfill the prophecy.

Isaiah 53:12 (NASB)
[sup]12 [/sup]Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

How is it obvious? Scripture please.

Do you pray this prayer daily?

Matthew 6:13 (NASB)
[sup]13 [/sup]'And do not lead us into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL.

Jesus didn't require them to fight period, unless you mean this:

2 Corinthians 10:3-4 (NASB) [sup]
3 [/sup]For though we walk in the flesh, WE DO NOT WAR ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, [sup]4 [/sup]for the weapons of our warfare are NOT OF THE FLESH, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.

You can search til eternity but you won't find any excuse for Christians to kill anyone for any reason. There are none.

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You're preaching pacifist dogma outside God's Word, plain and simple. Those who seek to destroy God's people love you for it too.

Just the fact that our Lord Jesus told His disciples to go buy a sword if they didn't have one reveals the true New Testament perspective. And that perspective from Christ about buying a literal sword for protection is that Christians have every right to defend themselves, their family, and their country. No amount of philosophizing will change that Luke 22 example of Christ's command to His disciples to go buy a sword for self-defense if they didn't already own one.


2 Cor 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
(KJV)

What you quoted from Apostle Paul is about the world of ideas and knowledge involving disobedience away from Christ. He's not talking about fighting those ideas of disobedience with literal physical weapons, but with the knowledge of God (i.e., The Word of God). He is not going against Christ's command to buy a literal sword for self-defense.

veteran said:

You're preaching pacifist dogma outside God's Word, plain and simple. Those who seek to destroy God's people love you for it too.

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Doesn't God answer you prayers?

Matthew 6:13 (NASB)
[sup]13 [/sup]'And do not lead us into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL.

Just the fact that our Lord Jesus told His disciples to go buy a sword if they didn't have one reveals the true New Testament perspective. And that perspective from Christ about buying a literal sword for protection is that Christians have every right to defend themselves, their family, and their country. No amount of philosophizing will change that Luke 22 example of Christ's command to His disciples to go buy a sword for self-defense if they didn't already own one.

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Jesus said it was to fulfill the prophecy. He also told them not to use them.

2 Cor 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
(KJV)

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What you quoted from Apostle Paul is about the world of ideas and knowledge involving disobedience away from Christ. He's not talking about fighting those ideas of disobedience with literal physical weapons, but with the knowledge of God (i.e., The Word of God). He is not going against Christ's command to buy a literal sword for self-defense.

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It's about warring against Satan. Go ahead and preach killing and sending people to Hell. We'll see how it works out for you on Judgment Day.

You wrote:
"we do not war after the flesh"

You're preaching pacifist dogma outside God's Word, plain and simple. Those who seek to destroy God's people love you for it too.

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you are discussing issues with someone who doesn't understand how God works or whom God uses nor does he grasp what 'duty' and 'resp.' mean.

here is a real life scenario for duckybill to apply his way to;

recently in mexico a missionary's wife was killed as the missionary was speeding away from a drug gang. they wanted to steal his truck. the dilemma of course is this: does the missionary stop and give them his truck, putting his wife in danger of being kidnapped and raped repeatedly or does he push his foot down on the accelerator and protect his wife?

either way he is NOT resisting the evil person, one gives up the truck without a fight and the other is running from danger (much like paul did when he was lowered over the city walls at night to escape harm)

the ball is in duckybill's court.

archaeologist5 said:

here is a real life scenario for duckybill to apply his way to;

recently in mexico a missionary's wife was killed as the missionary was speeding away from a drug gang. they wanted to steal his truck. the dilemma of course is this: does the missionary stop and give them his truck, putting his wife in danger of being kidnapped and raped repeatedly or does he push his foot down on the accelerator and protect his wife?

either way he is NOT resisting the evil person, one gives up the truck without a fight and the other is running from danger (much like paul did when he was lowered over the city walls at night to escape harm)

the ball is in duckybill's court.

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I don't know all the details and neither do you. God knows who trusts in Him. And He knows who doesn't. Many who profess to be Christian die not trusting God.

Proverbs 29:25 (NKJV)
[sup]25 [/sup]The fear of man brings a snare, But WHOEVER TRUSTS IN THE LORD SHALL BE SAFE.

archaeologist5 said:

you are discussing issues with someone who doesn't understand how God works or whom God uses nor does he grasp what 'duty' and 'resp.' mean.

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God takes care of me and mine. How about you? I don't need to kill humans to be safe. I have Jesus as my Helper. I believe His promises.

Hebrews 13:5-6 (NKJV)
[sup]5 [/sup]For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." [sup]6 [/sup]So we may boldly say: "THE LORD IS MY HELPER; I WILL NOT FEAR.What can man do to me?"

Duckybill said:

I don't know all the details and neither do you. God knows who trusts in Him. And He knows who doesn't. Many who profess to be Christian die not trusting God.

Proverbs 29:25 (NKJV)
[sup]25 [/sup]The fear of man brings a snare, But WHOEVER TRUSTS IN THE LORD SHALL BE SAFE.

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didn't think you would do it.

Duckybill said:

I'll be safe.

Psalm 91:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you.

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well you now have 0 credibility and anything you say is meaningless.

Duckybill said:

And you still have ZERO NT to back you.

1 Peter 2:21-23 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, LEAVING US AN EXAMPLE, that you should follow His steps: [sup]22 [/sup]"Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth"; [sup]23 [/sup]who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but COMMITTED HIMSELF TO HIM WHO JUDGES RIGHTEOUSLY;

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siggghhh!!!!! yet i quoted 1 cor 13:7 which states that 'love protects'. protecting means defending someone you love but i guess you would let your wife and children be raped and assaulted while you stood by and did nothing, forgetting that God placed you there to protect them from harm. you are always looking for a supernatural event when God does not always use such things when He acts, when He spoke to elijah, he came as a small voice, when he saved paul, he came as supporters who cpnvinced him to leave over the city walls.

i have lots of OT and NT to back me up you have no wisdom, understanding nor anything as you are too immature. since you coud not apply your beliefs to that real life situation, your faith is in vain and hypocritcal.

archaeologist5 said:

siggghhh!!!!! yet i quoted 1 cor 13:7 which states that 'love protects'. protecting means defending someone you love but i guess you would let your wife and children be raped and assaulted while you stood by and did nothing, forgetting that God placed you there to protect them from harm. you are always looking for a supernatural event when God does not always use such things when He acts, when He spoke to elijah, he came as a small voice, when he saved paul, he came as supporters who cpnvinced him to leave over the city walls.

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All that you provided is your opinion. You think God doesn't work miracles like in Bible times because you don't see them? You're like Atheists who say they know there is no God. You are wrong. I have witnessed them. I am alive because God worked miracles because I am foolish enough to trust in Him and His promises. Haven't seen any Biblical miracles? Start believing.

i have lots of OT and NT to back me up you have no wisdom, understanding nor anything as you are too immature. since you coud not apply your beliefs to that real life situation, your faith is in vain and hypocritcal.

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I guess I'm too busy believing and trusting in God's MANY promises to even consider your opinions. Satan has stripped modern 'Christianity' of its power. It's very difficult to see any resemblance to the NT Church. You are just one of MANY victims.

Matthew 13:58 (NKJV)
[sup]58 [/sup]Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Duckybill said:

All that you provided is your opinion. You think God doesn't work miracles like in Bible times because you don't see them? You're like Atheists who say they know there is no God. You are wrong. I have witnessed them. I am alive because God worked miracles because I am foolish enough to trust in Him and His promises. Haven't seen any Biblical miracles? Start believing.

I guess I'm too busy believing and trusting in God's MANY promises to even consider your opinions. Satan has stripped modern 'Christianity' of its power. It's very difficult to see any resemblance to the NT Church. You are just one of MANY victims.

Matthew 13:58 (NKJV)
[sup]58 [/sup]Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

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the assumptions and misrepresentations in that quoted post are amazing. plus the false accusations. sorry but the author's writings are just hearsay an dhave no credibility and assumes far too much while attacking another person. his dismissal of others shows he is very immature and doesn't want to grow in Christ.

getting this back ON topic:

there is NO permission to sin anywhere in the Bible, both the OT & the NT BUT one has to come to grips with the word 'kill' and how GOD INTENDED its use in scriptures. if we stop at the obvious definition then we would not be able to eat any food because appetite require humans to kill animals and plants before eating them. i include animals and plants because the commandment simply states 'thou shalt NOT KILL'; it does not add any specifics to that command thus to be literal, like some people are in this thread, we must go hungry and starve to death.

so then the obvious meaning is out and we must properly exegete and the word 'kill' has been investigated and it is said that it means 'do not murder'. which is specific and lets the person reading the passage know that murder is sin and we do not have permission to sin. BUT this leaves us with another problem, too many people read their personal ideas and beliefs into the passage or take other scriptures out of context and add it into what the command is saying and they come out with some weird beliefs and end up dispbeying God in other areas of life in order to , as they think, obey this command. one cannot disobey scripture in one area of life while obeying another, they are still committing sin, which they have no permission to do.

does one 'kill' when obeying 1 cor. 13:7? that is a 'depends' question because it depends upon the situation. if there is no alternative in stopping the assault against a loved one then i do not think it is murder but defense BUT if there are options and one does NOT have to kill then i think if a person who kills during the act of protecting and ignores those options is actually commmitting murder and sins.

either case requires the killer to seek forgiveness from God, not as an excuse for their actions but in real repentence and sorrow for their acts, we do not set out to kill someone when we apply protection. now we have another problem as Jesus set the example--for HIM-- as when He was arrested He did not offer resistance but that was also because it was His purpose and time to be arrested. remember when earlier in His life the people wanted to throw Him off the cliff for blaspheme, He was not because it was not His time to die. He did not resist because He knew it was not time.

You also have to keep in mind that Jesus protected the disciples by 'killing' the storm that threatened them on the sea of galilee, then you need to remember that Paul was allowed to flee those who sought him harm, plus we need to remember that Peter "killed" ananias and sapphira when they lied to the Holy Spirit, so we do have an example of disciples "killing" others in the NT. what we do not have is a record of ALL the people's lives in the 1st century and we do not know if they killed or not BUT what we do have is scripture which states that if we sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us by His grace.

does God protect when people do not resist evil men--yes, does he allow lives to be taken when people do not resist evil men--yes. (as my mexico example shows) God does not violate Hisown word and when it is time for someone to die, nothing you will do can stop that from happening, 'it is appointed unto man once to die'.

it is wrong to make a personal theology and adhere to it in a legalistic manner for that robs people of the truth, causes more problems than simply seeking forgiveness for a wrong act, and divides the church wrongly. at some point such a legalistic theology ends up tempting God and God said that was wrong.

be careful when addressing these issues for we do not lead people to that which is NOT true or legalistic. we must also keep in mind that not every believer is so mature in their faith that they can put down the natural instinct to defend themselves and it is wrong to stand in judgement of them beating them over the heads with out of context scripture, using them like a sledgehammer simply because the do not do things your way. you are NOT GOD and have no clue what God has allowed them to do or where they are at in their spiritual lives thus you cannot demand of others to follow your personal beliefs for they are NOT called to follow such bad thinking or theology, they are called to follow GOD.

what those with the legalistic or personal theology must do is humble themselves and make sure they got it right and not to dismiss mature christians lead of God when they try to reprove and correct you.

Ducky, it would appear that you have reached your last desperate arguments in trying to defend your position: A blanket accusation to all who don't agree with you. How very sad.

Apparently anyone who doesn't agree with you is not a Christian but rather a "Christian," meaning one in name only.

And apparently those "Christians" - meaning all who don't agree with your point - "will kill, steal and do almost anything to survive, even dropping bombs on babies, elderly, mentally ill, cripples, etc. to save their own necks."

Again, how very sad.

Foreigner said:

"Jesus told us, those who are his disciples that it is no longer acceptable to kill. " - Thankful1


-- Really? Where? Because your scripture quote is about seeking revenge for something done to you.

While it is true that Jesus likely doesn't want you to kill someone out of vengeance, that doesn't mean He said it was no longer acceptable to kill under any circumstance.

Same for the verse talking about praying for those who persecute you.

Someone breaks into your home and is chasing your wife or daughter with an ax. Are you really going to just going to pick up a phone and dial 911 or sit down and say "I forgive him" instead of trying to stop him?

Am looking forward to a verse that actually supports your position.

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Can you provide Scripture where Jesus allowed it?

archaeologist5 said:

siggghhh!!!!! yet i quoted 1 cor 13:7 which states that 'love protects'. protecting means defending someone you love but i guess you would let your wife and children be raped and assaulted while you stood by and did nothing, forgetting that God placed you there to protect them from harm. you are always looking for a supernatural event when God does not always use such things when He acts, when He spoke to elijah, he came as a small voice, when he saved paul, he came as supporters who cpnvinced him to leave over the city walls.

i have lots of OT and NT to back me up you have no wisdom, understanding nor anything as you are too immature. since you coud not apply your beliefs to that real life situation, your faith is in vain and hypocritcal.

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Is fasting and praying doing nothing? Does God have the ability to protect Duckybill's family or does God require his help?

Foreigner said:

Ducky, it would appear that you have reached your last desperate arguments in trying to defend your position: A blanket accusation to all who don't agree with you. How very sad.

Apparently anyone who doesn't agree with you is not a Christian but rather a "Christian," meaning one in name only.

And apparently those "Christians" - meaning all who don't agree with your point - "will kill, steal and do almost anything to survive, even dropping bombs on babies, elderly, mentally ill, cripples, etc. to save their own necks."

Again, how very sad.

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Guess you haven't been reading all those here defending killing innocent people to save their own hides. What is sad is the many who value their lives more than salvation.

Butch5 said:

Is fasting and praying doing nothing? Does God have the ability to protect Duckybill's family or does God require his help?

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Amen! Satan is the enemy.

2 Corinthians 10:3 (NKJV)
[sup]3 [/sup]For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

ahigherway said:

Hi everyone,
I found an interesting song in youtube today through a site called Christians for peace.
Any thoughts?
Can Christians kill other people?


Blessings to all,
brian

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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:1
a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.
Ecc 3:8

The O.T. teaching and example is very specific on this. There's a big difference between killing and murder.
Murder is generally the taking of another's life for personal profit and advantage.
Killing is generally defined as the taking of life during war. It is impersonal and indirect even during hand to hand combat.

Your image at the top of this thread is interesting. It shows the explosion of an atomic device.
Two such devices were used on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August of 1945.
Was it just and proper to do such a thing to civilians?

I believe it was.

The practice and advantage of killing civilians during times of war are clearly taught in the O.T.

It is an axiom of war that civilians are valid targets due to their support either directly or indirectly for their combatant troops on the front line.

Civilians support the conflict and share in victory as well as defeat. They are as honorable or as guilty of the acts of war as those in uniform who performed them.

The act of Muslim terrorists on 9/11 is an example. For them, civilians are not innocent and therefore subject to lethal force as much as any uniformed soldier. Was it honorable? IMO it was not and I therefore shed no tears when Muslim civilians are killed by errant missles.

During the American Civil War, president Abraham Lincoln endorsed the policy of the destruction of southern AMERICAN homes, farms and industry in order to defeat Confederate armies.

During WWII, the Imperial Japanese Army killed innocent Chinese civilians by the hundreds of thousands. Specifically in the capital city of Nanking, China 250,000 men women and children (who had already surrendered) were brutally raped and murdered. The incident is called "The Rape of Nanking". Look it up.

It was standard procedure for Japanese and German armies to kill civilians AFTER a surrender.
-BUT-
No American bomb fell on any Japanese city AFTER surrender, nor were any civilians or combatants harmed AFTER surrender.

Was the use of an atomic bomb on two Japanese cities DURING WAR justified? I believe it was.
In fact, considering the magnitude of Japanese atrocities AND THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE NEVER ADMITTED TO OR APOLOGIZED FOR ANY OF IT, I believe it was well deserved.

It should be noted that in most Japanese text books, WWII has not been mentioned at all.
When some school children were asked what they knew about WWII they asked "who fought and who won?"

[email protected] said:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:1
a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.
Ecc 3:8

The O.T. teaching and example is very specific on this. There's a big difference between killing and murder.
Murder is generally the taking of another's life for personal profit and advantage.
Killing is generally defined as the taking of life during war. It is impersonal and indirect even during hand to hand combat.

Your image at the top of this thread is interesting. It shows the explosion of an atomic device.
Two such devices were used on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August of 1945.
Was it just and proper to do such a thing to civilians?

I believe it was.

The practice and advantage of killing civilians during times of war are clearly taught in the O.T.

It is an axiom of war that civilians are valid targets due to their support either directly or indirectly for their combatant troops on the front line.

Civilians support the conflict and share in victory as well as defeat. They are as honorable or as guilty of the acts of war as those in uniform who performed them.

The act of Muslim terrorists on 9/11 is an example. For them, civilians are not innocent and therefore subject to lethal force as much as any uniformed soldier. Was it honorable? IMO it was not and I therefore shed no tears when Muslim civilians are killed by errant missles.

During the American Civil War, president Abraham Lincoln endorsed the policy of the destruction of southern AMERICAN homes, farms and industry in order to defeat Confederate armies.

During WWII, the Imperial Japanese Army killed innocent Chinese civilians by the hundreds of thousands. Specifically in the capital city of Nanking, China 250,000 men women and children (who had already surrendered) were brutally raped and murdered. The incident is called "The Rape of Nanking". Look it up.

It was standard procedure for Japanese and German armies to kill civilians AFTER a surrender.
-BUT-
No American bomb fell on any Japanese city AFTER surrender, nor were any civilians or combatants harmed AFTER surrender.

Was the use of an atomic bomb on two Japanese cities DURING WAR justified? I believe it was.
In fact, considering the magnitude of Japanese atrocities AND THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE NEVER ADMITTED TO OR APOLOGIZED FOR ANY OF IT, I believe it was well deserved.

It should be noted that in most Japanese text books, WWII has not been mentioned at all.
When some school children were asked what they knew about WWII they asked "who fought and who won?"

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First of all, what Japan, Germany, and America, did is irrelevant to the Christian, they were not following Christ. Concerning your use of the OT to support war, let me ask you if you also turn to the OT for salvation? Are you under grace or do you seek to be under the Jewish Law?