Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?

Butch5 said:

First of all, what Japan, Germany, and America, did is irrelevant to the Christian, they were not following Christ. Concerning your use of the OT to support war, let me ask you if you also turn to the OT for salvation? Are you under grace or do you seek to be under the Jewish Law?

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What those nations did during the war were certainly relevant. Millions died over relevance.

What has salvation got to do with the topic?

To answer your questions as to OT law and salvation.
There is no difference between law and grace, at least as far as salvation is concerned.

Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:17

Law and grace work together unto salvation. Here's how.
The law convicts of sin. By the law we are convinced of it's seriousness as God sees it.
It's like looking into a bathroom mirror and discovering that you've got a dirty face.

But a mirror cannot clean your dirty face. You need soap and water to do that.
Enter grace, God's 'soap and water' for the filthy soul.
In actual fact, the blood of Christ performs the cleaning, but it in no way subverts the law.

See the dirt, then clean it off. Simple.
Law & grace work together.
There is no separation at all.
Without the O.T. you cannot understand the new or appropriate the grace of God unto salvation.

Back to WWII, I think you need to take a closer look at history or at least a superficial quick study.
It was a horriffic time and the cause that was fought for was the survival of western civilization.
Nothing less.

If the allies had lost, then we would be speaking German or Japanese and worshipping God at risk to our lives.
Man, if that wasn't a Christian cause, then I don't know what is.
I dare say you don't either.

[email protected] said:

What those nations did during the war were certainly relevant. Millions died over relevance.

What has salvation got to do with the topic?

To answer your questions as to OT law and salvation.
There is no difference between law and grace, at least as far as salvation is concerned.

Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:17

Law and grace work together unto salvation. Here's how.
The law convicts of sin. By the law we are convinced of it's seriousness as God sees it.
It's like looking into a bathroom mirror and discovering that you've got a dirty face.

But a mirror cannot clean your dirty face. You need soap and water to do that.
Enter grace, God's 'soap and water' for the filthy soul.
In actual fact, the blood of Christ performs the cleaning, but it in no way subverts the law.

See the dirt, then clean it off. Simple.
Law & grace work together.
There is no separation at all.
Without the O.T. you cannot understand the new or appropriate the grace of God unto salvation.

Back to WWII, I think you need to take a closer look at history or at least a superficial quick study.
It was a horriffic time and the cause that was fought for was the survival of western civilization.
Nothing less.

If the allies had lost, then we would be speaking German or Japanese and worshipping God at risk to our lives.
Man, if that wasn't a Christian cause, then I don't know what is.
I dare say you don't either.

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Do you realize that theGerman Army was made up of mostly Christians?



Do you realize that it wasChristians killing Christians?





(1 Corinthians 3:16-17) “Didn’t you realize that you wereGod’s temple and that the Spirit of God was living among you? If anybody should destroy the temple of God,God will destroy him, because the temple of God is sacred, and you are thattemple.”



Do you realize that if all the Christians would have trustedand obeyed God, and not their Governments that God would have taken care ofthem?



(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it wassaid: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”



(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love yourneighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and prayfor those who persecute you.”

[email protected] said:

What those nations did during the war were certainly relevant. Millions died over relevance.

What has salvation got to do with the topic?

To answer your questions as to OT law and salvation.
There is no difference between law and grace, at least as far as salvation is concerned.

Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:17

Law and grace work together unto salvation. Here's how.
The law convicts of sin. By the law we are convinced of it's seriousness as God sees it.
It's like looking into a bathroom mirror and discovering that you've got a dirty face.

But a mirror cannot clean your dirty face. You need soap and water to do that.
Enter grace, God's 'soap and water' for the filthy soul.
In actual fact, the blood of Christ performs the cleaning, but it in no way subverts the law.

See the dirt, then clean it off. Simple.
Law & grace work together.
There is no separation at all.
Without the O.T. you cannot understand the new or appropriate the grace of God unto salvation.

Back to WWII, I think you need to take a closer look at history or at least a superficial quick study.
It was a horriffic time and the cause that was fought for was the survival of western civilization.
Nothing less.

If the allies had lost, then we would be speaking German or Japanese and worshipping God at risk to our lives.
Man, if that wasn't a Christian cause, then I don't know what is.
I dare say you don't either.

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My friend,

Law and Grace "do not" work together. Firstly, it was the Jews that were under the Law, not the Gentiles. The Law pertained to the Jews, it was given to the Jews. Jesus came and fulfilled the law, therefore Paul said to the Jewish believers at Rome that Christ was the end of the Law for righteousness to those who believe. He was speaking to and of Jewish believers because they were that ones under the Law, not the Gentiles. Jesus gave a new Law, new commands, of which was the command to not resist evil, to turn the other cheek, to not return evil for evil. and so on.

As for a Christian cause, I'm sorry my friend, but the saving of western civilization "IS NOT" a Christian cause. If there was a "Christian cause" it would have been saving the church when it was under extreme persecution, yet, those early believers would not use the sword even to save the church itself, they left it in God's hands. They were simply following what they were taught by Jesus and the apostles.

Again, as for Germany, Japan, And America, what they did is not relevant to the topic at hand. The thread asked if it was OK for a Christian to kill.

Thankful 1 said:

Do you realize that theGerman Army was made up of mostly Christians?



Do you realize that it wasChristians killing Christians?





(1 Corinthians 3:16-17) “Didn’t you realize that you wereGod’s temple and that the Spirit of God was living among you? If anybody should destroy the temple of God,God will destroy him, because the temple of God is sacred, and you are thattemple.”



Do you realize that if all the Christians would have trustedand obeyed God, and not their Governments that God would have taken care ofthem?



(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it wassaid: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”



(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love yourneighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and prayfor those who persecute you.”

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Yep, just as it was in America. The American civil war had Christians killing Christians, the American Revolutionary war had Christians killing Christians. I don't think God was on either side in these so called Christian causes.

Doesn't God answer you prayers?

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so what are you going to do when God doesn't answer your prayers the way you want and yourself or your wife or your children are injured or killed when they do not resist an evil man? {or all three}

Go ahead and preach killing and sending people to Hell. We'll see how it works out for you on Judgment Day.

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no one is preaching killing, that is your assumption and judgmental attitude claiming that.

it would appear that you have reached your last desperate arguments in trying to defend your position: A blanket accusation to all who don't agree with you. How very sad.

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yes it is very sad.

Is fasting and praying doing nothing? Does God have the ability to protect Duckybill's family or does God require his help?

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you show an immaturity and lackof understanding God's word and its application. there is no time to pray and fast if someone is attacking your family or you. you and duckybill forget the verse or ignore it on purpose because it is not tellign you what you want to hear-- 1 Cor. 13:7 'love protects...'
so you protect your family if you love it

Guess you haven't been reading all those here defending killing innocent people to save their own hides. What is sad is the many who value their lives more than salvation.

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another bad assumption and displays a lack of understanding of what salvation is. one does not tempt God like that poster does.

The practice and advantage of killing civilians during times of war are clearly taught in the O.T.

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please do not confuse God's punishment upon a sinful people as justifcation for killing innocent people or civilians.

Do you realize that theGerman Army was made up of mostly Christians?

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you do realize that wearing a belt buckle that says something like 'mitt en got' {translated as God is with us} doesn't make the wearer christian, don't you?

Do you realize that if all the Christians would have trustedand obeyed God, and not their Governments that God would have taken care ofthem?

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you do realize that all people who claim to be christian aren't, don't you?

so once again the above poster cannot answer a real life situation according to his beliefs. his credibility has gone to less than zero. he also makes assumptions and attacks those andnot what was said.

no one said:

'love protects' and kills our enemies?

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clearly the above quoted poster expects a supernatural miracle every time and he is not to do anything. he reminds me of the story about the rising flood waters and the man trapped on a roof. 3 times help arrives and 3 times the answer is: 'no it is okay God will help me' then the man drowns while sitting on the roof.'

sometimes people want God to help but they do not recognize it because it comes in a form they do not like or want.

You are obviously admitting that God doesn't answer your prayers so you answer your own by using violence

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these attacks on others are very misguided as are the false assumptions and leaps to a conclusion.

As I said before, God has saved my life several times. Please pay attention.

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hearsay and doesn't address the question asked. avoidance and insulting.

So you wouldn't kill to save your life?

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just do not assume.

The God of the Bible is a God of miracles. Isn't yours?

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insulting, attacking, disrespectful and does not address the issue. shows great immaturity and arrogance.

Please give that "story" a rest. You obviously have no NT to support your OPINIONS

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assumption and avoidance of reality. the story is germane and points to the immaturity of the poster. his restriction to the new testament shows he does not want to hear the truth but only what he wants to hear.

Stop playing the victim. 'Christians' resort to violence because they KNOW that God doesn't answer their prayers.

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way out in left field. no one is playing 'the victim' but calling the responses exactly what the are. wild accusations without proof and demeans those christians whose young faith may not be where that poster demands it to be to be considered 'christian'. shows a lack of maturity, understanding and wisdom on the part of that poster.

{this analysis has been brought to you by kelloggs the breakfast cereal}

this is the trouble with a lot of christians, they get a little growth and think they can ignore passages of scripture to nurse their personal ideas, forgetting that God directs His followers not those who have gotten to big for their britches. the main thing here is for that poster to learn the difference between killing on purpose and killing accidently and that there is grace for those who do either one.

archaeologist5 said:

hearsay and doesn't address the question asked. avoidance and insulting.

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It's very Biblical. The Bible insults many people.

Mt 7 Narrow is the way and FEW there be that find it.

just do not assume.

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Is that a yes?

insulting, attacking, disrespectful and does not address the issue. shows great immaturity and arrogance.

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Actually it forces people to choose. Find out why you don't get answers to prayer, or stay in your unbelief. So it's quite constructive.

assumption and avoidance of reality. the story is germane and points to the immaturity of the poster. his restriction to the new testament shows he does not want to hear the truth but only what he wants to hear.

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The story is designed to deny the supernatural God of the Bible. It's nonsense and unbelief.

way out in left field. no one is playing 'the victim' but calling the responses exactly what the are. wild accusations without proof and demeans those christians whose young faith may not be where that poster demands it to be to be considered 'christian'. shows a lack of maturity, understanding and wisdom on the part of that poster.

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Christians are not to remain babies. They MUST grow up and start believing God's many promises to help. Those who aren't growing are dying.

{this analysis has been brought to you by kelloggs the breakfast cereal}

this is the trouble with a lot of christians, they get a little growth and think they can ignore passages of scripture to nurse their personal ideas, forgetting that God directs His followers not those who have gotten to big for their britches. the main thing here is for that poster to learn the difference between killing on purpose and killing accidently and that there is grace for those who do either one.

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As usual you offer ZERO NT to back you.

Romans 12:21 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]Do not be overcome by evil, but OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD.

A reasonable place to begin would be: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL." One of the ten commandments as it is written in [Exodus 20:13]. The word "kill," as it is used here is Hebrew word #7523, pronounced (raw-tsakh'), and it translates: To kill a human being, be a murderer, to murder, OR; to manslay, to be a manslayer, depending on the circumstances.

That narrows down a large parameter for the statement "THOU SHALT NOT KILL." But Jesus brings it out in total clarity for us in the New Testament so we can have no misunderstanding of God's commandment to us.

Let's go to [Matthew 19:18]. When Jesus was asked how one could find everlasting life, Jesus answered: "THOU SHALT DO NO MURDER..." (and he continues the verse by naming others of the ten commandments). Bear in mind, that we are now in the Greek language of the New Testament. This word "murder" as it is used here, is Greek word #5406, pronounced (fon-yooce'); and it is defined as: A murderer (always of criminal [or at least intentional] homicide). Jesus could not be any clearer than that!

The Bible speaks in many places of the difference between killing a man and murdering a man. We will pick two of them and do an in-depth word study of some of the key words.

The key defined words listed will have (parentheses) around a word number, so you can compare them to the Greek and Hebrew definitions that I have included below. Example: kill (Hebrew word # 7523).

Bear in mind that these definitions apply only to the specific verse that they are mentioned in, and do not "necessarily" apply to that same word as it appears in other places in the Bible. For as we covered in the: "Preface study to the In-depth Bible studies," In-depth Bible study, the translators of the English Bible Old Testament took nine different Hebrew words that each had a distinct and finite meaning and translated them all into the one English word "Kill." Thus you begin to see the importance of a Strong's Concordance for all fruitful in-depth Bible study. Now below are the words that are specific to our present study.

SLAYER: (raw-tsakh') Hebrew word # 7523; (this word has a dual meaning, depending on the circumstance were it is used). It always means to kill a human being. then it means #1 or #2 below:

To murder, or be a murderer (if done with hate and premeditation, likened to our present day criminal homicide).
To slay, to be a manslayer (if done at unawares or without malice or intent, likened to our present day involuntary manslaughter ).
MURDERER: (same Hebrew word # 7523 as above, but translated into a different English word. See above word).

SLAY: (mooth) Hebrew word # 4191; to put to death, cause to die, must die, worthy of death, must kill, slay surely and very suddenly. (Likened to our present day execution. A death sentence carried out).

DIE: (same Hebrew word # 4191 as above, but translated into a different English word. See above word).

SMITE: (naw-kaw') Hebrew word # 5221; to strike repeatedly, kill; to slaughter or to murder depending on the circumstances or reason.

SMITING & SLEW: Are both words taken from: Hebrew word # 5221; (as in above word), in a different tense. They always mean to strike, beat repeatedly to the point that death is immanent. The further meaning of the word then goes 2 ways:

To murder or punish depending on the reason for it, or the mind-set of the individual doing it (intent). and:
To kill or wound, depending on the severity of the beating.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/life.htm

Let me ask a question....Why did Peter carry a sword when he walked with Christ?

"Guess you haven't been reading all those here defending killing innocent people to save their own hides. What is sad is the many who value their lives more than salvation." - Ducky


-- Stopping someone who enters your home illegally with an ax bent on rape and murder is hardly "killing innocent people to save their own hides."

Do you perhaps have a specific example of someone here actually supporting the idea of killing "innocent people" in order to "save their own hides?"

I am going to go out on a limb and bet you can't provide a single...solitary...person.

That is, unless you call an ax wielding person, in the midst of breaking and entering....."innocent people."




This last statement of yours is almost as bad as when you said that people who would kill if necessary to defend the very lives of their family members, "will kill, steal and do almost anything to survive, even dropping bombs on babies, elderly, mentally ill, cripples, etc. to save their own necks."


Please take a stab at reality, Ducky. You may find that you like it.

Foreigner said:

-- Stopping someone who enters your home illegally with an ax bent on rape and murder is hardly "killing innocent people to save their own hides."

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Never said it is. Dropping bombs on babies and other helpless humans is.

Do you perhaps have a specific example of someone here actually supporting the idea of killing "innocent people" in order to "save their own hides?"

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See above.

I am going to go out on a limb and bet you can't provide a single...solitary...person.

That is, unless you call an ax wielding person, in the midst of breaking and entering....."innocent people."

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No, they are probably evil people.

Matthew 5:39 (NKJV)
[sup]39 [/sup]But I tell you not to resist an evil person.

This last statement of yours is almost as bad as when you said that people who would kill if necessary to defend the very lives of their family members, "will kill, steal and do almost anything to survive, even dropping bombs on babies, elderly, mentally ill, cripples, etc. to save their own necks."

Please take a stab at reality, Ducky. You may find that you like it.

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You don't support the military?

archaeologist5 said:

so what are you going to do when God doesn't answer your prayers the way you want and yourself or your wife or your children are injured or killed when they do not resist an evil man? {or all three}

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You obey God's command, Just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, did.


Daniel 3:16-18 ( KJV )
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.



Let me ask you a question. What would you do if you had to stand before God and answer for why you killed a man and denied him a chance to come to Christ for eternal life?

Foreigner said:

"Guess you haven't been reading all those here defending killing innocent people to save their own hides. What is sad is the many who value their lives more than salvation." - Ducky


-- Stopping someone who enters your home illegally with an ax bent on rape and murder is hardly "killing innocent people to save their own hides."

Do you perhaps have a specific example of someone here actually supporting the idea of killing "innocent people" in order to "save their own hides?"

I am going to go out on a limb and bet you can't provide a single...solitary...person.

That is, unless you call an ax wielding person, in the midst of breaking and entering....."innocent people."




This last statement of yours is almost as bad as when you said that people who would kill if necessary to defend the very lives of their family members, "will kill, steal and do almost anything to survive, even dropping bombs on babies, elderly, mentally ill, cripples, etc. to save their own necks."


Please take a stab at reality, Ducky. You may find that you like it.

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Jesus didn't say don't resist an innocent person, he said don't resist and evil person. The axe wielding murderer does fall under an evil person.

n2thelight said:

Let me ask a question....Why did Peter carry a sword when he walked with Christ?

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Actually it was a large knife/ small sword. They had to prepare food to eat, they needed to cut things rope etc. so they would have need for a knife or small sword.

Duckybill said:

That's a great point! I would rather die and be with the Lord than kill someone going to the eternal Hell.

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That is the way the early Christians also believed. They would not use violence for any reason, not even to protect life. They knew they were going to be with God when they died and they did not want to deny anyone else that chance. Here is another thought, Our life is a mere blink of an eye in the scope of eternity. So what if we lose a few years here as opposed to denying someone else the chance to know the love of God and to live with Him eternally.

"Guess you haven't been reading all those here defending killing innocent people to save their own hides. What is sad is the many who value their lives more than salvation." - Ducky

-- Still waiting for you to provide evidence of even one person advocating the killing of innocent people to save their own lives.
Please be specific.



You don't support the military? - Ducky

-- You don't support the military?

Foreigner said:

"Guess you haven't been reading all those here defending killing innocent people to save their own hides. What is sad is the many who value their lives more than salvation." - Ducky

-- Still waiting for you to provide evidence of even one person advocating the killing of innocent people to save their own lives.
Please be specific.

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Foreigner said:

You don't support the military? - Ducky

-- You don't support the military?

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I'm not going to re-read the entire thread for you. If you are interested you will do it yourself.

Foreigner said:

"Guess you haven't been reading all those here defending killing innocent people to save their own hides. What is sad is the many who value their lives more than salvation." - Ducky

-- Still waiting for you to provide evidence of even one person advocating the killing of innocent people to save their own lives.
Please be specific.

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Foreigner said:

You don't support the military? - Ducky

-- You don't support the military?

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If you support the military you are supporting killing innocent people to save your own neck.