Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?

Butch5 said:

It doesn’t really matter what the English words mean because Paul did not write in English. I showed you the definition of the Greek word translated avenge that Paul used.

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-- "It doesn't matter what the English word means..." Your very words...yet your reply was an English translation of what Paul said.
What is good for thee is not for me?

You translated what Paul was talking about: "avenge, vengeance, revenger" (these are the very words you used).

I simply (correctly) pointed out that defending someone from a person meaning to kill them is not vengeance. It really is that simple.

The words that describe that action - if you are honest - are "defend, save, protect."

If you go after someone who has already killed your wife with an ax in order to teach them a lesson, THEN you are in the realm of "avenge, vengeance, revenger."

Again, simple stuff.

Butch5 said:

"Are you suggesting that killing them is showing love and mercy?"

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-- Yes....to the innocent people that are going to be murdered if you don't stop the ax murder.

You imply that it is more important to show mercy by not stopping the ax murderer and let him kill your family (and possibly several others later on).

Scripture doesn't support that.

Butch5 said:

You are showing love and mercy by not killing them. However, it is not your place to kill. I’ll go back to the question you won’t answer.
Does God need you help to protect your family?
From your statements it seems to me that you either don’t believe that God will protect them or you don’t think He is capable of doing so.
I’ll ask again, is praying doing nothing?

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-- First off, thank you for admitting that by killing the ax murder before he can murder them you are showing "love and mercy."

I am sorry that you do not understand that God sometimes uses us mere mortals to fulfill His promises here on earth.

Until you realize that, you will continue to be wrong in your thinking.

Butch5 said:

If that scenario happened, is that what you would say to Jesus when you faced Him? Remember, God showed mercy when His Son was murdered.

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-- As far as what I would say to Jesus when I faced Him, I would be wholeheartedly thanking Him for giving me the ability to save my wife and child from senseless slaughter.
If it applied to you, you would of course thank God for the mercy and love of letting your wife and child be slaughtered and not stopping the person, thus allowing him to possibly kill more later.

God let Jesus die because Jesus was SUPPOSED to die.

Butch5 said:

Jesus said to His disciples ‘when they persecute you flee’. Paul did nothing but follow what Jesus said.

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-- That runs completely contrary to the scripture you quoted: "And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other;"

Fleeing to keep from being smited....

Care to share the scripture where Jesus said, "when they persecute you, you flee?"

Butch5 said:

My friend, these kinds of statements show a lack of faith in God. Is He able to protect His own or not? You statements seem to indicate to me that you don’t think He is able.

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-- Actually what is show is not a lack of faith on my part but a lack of understanding on yours. You can quote scripture, but you don't seem to realize it doesn't apply the way you think.

And again, you faith to comprehend that sometimes Jesus carries out His will via us mere mortals. Do you really not understand that?



"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

-- According to the black-and-white way you look at scripture, that means that every single person that believes in Jesus will be saved, no matter what.
Yet demons believe in Jesus. Will they be saved?
I know people who believe in Jesus but are living lives of sin. What's more, they don't feel that they are sinning and will likely die in their sin. Will their belief in Jesus blot out the fact that they did not turn away from sin at all?

According to the way you read scripture, both those groups will be saved simply because they believe.


"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Rom. 10:9

-- Reading this scripture the way you read scripture this means all you have to do is believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

I have met Satanists that believe that Jesus rose from the dead. They believe that the Anti-Christ will negate His work.

I also know people who are hurting who acknowledge that Jesus has risen from the grave but have rejected Him nontheless.

Using your standard of looking at scriture, since both of those groups believe He was raised from the dead, they are saved and going to heaven.


Again, according to your standard, since I do not feel any of those will be saved, I am unwilling to believe or lack faith in God's scripture. Ridiculous.

Butch5 said:

No one is suggesting that you present you family to the ax wielding murderer, only that you not use force against him. You’ve already given the answer, flee.

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-- That shows the limits of how you process. An ax murderer breaking into your home and cornering your wife and child doesn't leave the opportunity to "flee."
You can't simply say, "Excuse us while we run for our lives."

Butch5 said:

No my friend, God does not use the Christian to exact vengeance. You won’t find an example or command to that effect in the New Covenant.

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-- Again, simple lack of understanding on your part. Having to kill someone to keep them from murdering your wife and child is not - repeat NOT - vengeance.

That doesn't fit the definition of vengeance in any language. It is called protecting...or defending...or saving.

NONE of those are synonyms for vengeance in any way, shape, form, or style.

Vengeance implies a motive of inflicting pain or damage for the sole purpose of inflicting pain or damage. This is done out of anger or hurt or a corrupted sense of administering justice...not the proactive protection of the innocent.



.

Foreigner said:

-- "It doesn't matter what the English word means..." Your very words...yet your reply was an English translation of what Paul said.
What is good for thee is not for me?

You translated what Paul was talking about: "avenge, vengeance, revenger" (these are the very words you used).

I simply (correctly) pointed out that defending someone from a person meaning to kill them is not vengeance. It really is that simple.

The words that describe that action - if you are honest - are "defend, save, protect."

If you go after someone who has already killed your wife with an ax in order to teach them a lesson, THEN you are in the realm of "avenge, vengeance, revenger."

Again, simple stuff.

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As I said, Paul chose the words my friend. You can deny them if you choose, you can redefine them if you like. That doesn't change the Scriptures. The Greek word means to defend oneself or another, and Paul said don't do it. You have to answer to Christ for what you do with it.

-- Yes....to the innocent people that are going to be murdered if you don't stop the ax murder.

You imply that it is more important to show mercy by not stopping the ax murderer and let him kill your family (and possibly several others later on).

Scripture doesn't support that.

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I didn't say nor suppose that. That is your inference. You see there is another option that it seems to me you don't think is valid, and that is praying to God.

Then there is the option to flee.

-- First off, thank you for admitting that by killing the ax murder before he can murder them you are showing "love and mercy."

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I didn't admit that, you must have misunderstood me.

I am sorry that you do not understand that God sometimes uses us mere mortals to fulfill His promises here on earth.
Until you realize that, you will continue to be wrong in your thinking.

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He uses men that are not Christians.

Wrong thinking? My friend, I've shown where God said that the Old Law would end and a New Law would take effect. I showed where Jesus gave that new Law. That new Law, does not allow for the use of violence. I've shown the historical understanding of the first church and that they would not use violence for any reason.

-- As far as what I would say to Jesus when I faced Him, I would be wholeheartedly thanking Him for giving me the ability to save my wife and child from senseless slaughter.
If it applied to you, you would of course thank God for the mercy and love of letting your wife and child be slaughtered and not stopping the person, thus allowing him to possibly kill more later.

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You assume you would not be chastised? The simple fact of the matter is that you would have broken the command, why might be the question.

God let Jesus die because Jesus was SUPPOSED to die.

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Where does it say that? Jesus died willingly, He could have stopped at any time if He choose to. God also could have chosen to stop it. So don't think it had to happen.

-- That runs completely contrary to the scripture you quoted: "And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other;"

Fleeing to keep from being smited....

Care to share the scripture where Jesus said, "when they persecute you, you flee?"

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Context my friend, that seems rare.

Matthew 10:21-23 ( KJV )
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I sure wish you would share some Scripture.

-- Actually what is show is not a lack of faith on my part but a lack of understanding on yours. You can quote scripture, but you don't seem to realize it doesn't apply the way you think.

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On the contrary, I've shown that I understand it the way the earliest Christians understood it, and they were taught by Christ and the apostles. I suspect that it is your understanding that is suspect.

And again, you faith to comprehend that sometimes Jesus carries out His will via us mere mortals. Do you really not understand that?

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Iv'e already addressed this. God uses those who are not Christians. Can you show a single verse of Scripture that shows god used a Christian for that purpose? There is none.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

-- According to the black-and-white way you look at scripture, that means that every single person that believes in Jesus will be saved, no matter what.
Yet demons believe in Jesus. Will they be saved?
I know people who believe in Jesus but are living lives of sin. What's more, they don't feel that they are sinning and will likely die in their sin. Will their belief in Jesus blot out the fact that they did not turn away from sin at all?

According to the way you read scripture, both those groups will be saved simply because they believe.

Click to expand...

This is completely outside the parameters of this discussion. However, from your statements it is clear you don't know what I believe regarding that.

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Rom. 10:9

-- Reading this scripture the way you read scripture this means all you have to do is believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

I have met Satanists that believe that Jesus rose from the dead. They believe that the Anti-Christ will negate His work.

I also know people who are hurting who acknowledge that Jesus has risen from the grave but have rejected Him nonetheless.

Using your standard of looking at scripture, since both of those groups believe He was raised from the dead, they are saved and going to heaven.


Again, according to your standard, since I do not feel any of those will be saved, I am unwilling to believe or lack faith in God's scripture. Ridiculous.

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My friend, this is just distracts attention from the issue at hand. If you feel you know what hermeneutical method I use please feel free to explain. The simple fact is that there is no argument from Scripture for your position and thus we must digress to this type of discussion.

-- That shows the limits of how you process. An ax murderer breaking into your home and cornering your wife and child doesn't leave the opportunity to "flee."
You can't simply say, "Excuse us while we run for our lives."

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Interesting how you change the scenario as we go. Now it is a family cornered. The simple fact of the matter is, will you trust God or not. Bottom line, you can make all of the scenarios that you like, but in the end the issue, who’s will will be done, God’s or your’s?
You see your entire argument is based in the desires of man. There is nothing from Scripture. The issue is not only will you trust God, but will you obey Him.
Another question that arises is, who is in control? Is God in control? If so, don’t you think He knows what is happening? He sees, the question is will you turn to Him or not?

-- Again, simple lack of understanding on your part. Having to kill someone to keep them from murdering your wife and child is not - repeat NOT - vengeance.
That doesn't fit the definition of vengeance in any language. It is called protecting...or defending...or saving.
NONE of those are synonyms for vengeance in any way, shape, form, or style.
Vengeance implies a motive of inflicting pain or damage for the sole purpose of inflicting pain or damage. This is done out of anger or hurt or a corrupted sense of administering justice...not the proactive protection of the innocent.

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Please address the issue posted. This issue wasn't defense, it was the use of a Christian to exact punishment. You posted.

Do you REALLY not understand the simple fact that sometimes God exercises His will and His fulfillment through the hands of we His children?

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To which I responded.

No my friend, God does not use the Christian to exact vengeance. You won’t find an example or command to that effect in the New Covenant.

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LOL I think we're done here.

You are either incapable of understanding the difference between vengeance and saving/protecting or are being intentionally obtuse.

In either case, you are blind.

Your cut and paste responses from bibleforums.org are making you look comical.

I wish you the best.

Foreigner said:

LOL I think we're done here.

You are either incapable of understanding the difference between vengeance and saving/protecting or are being intentionally obtuse.

In either case, you are blind.

Your cut and paste responses from bibleforums.org are making you look comical.

I wish you the best.

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They're on Bible forum.org because I posted them there. This isn't the only forum I attend. However, you still have no argument from the Scriptures and all of he Ad hominems in the world isn't going to change that.

LOL "Ad hominems."

Noticed you love to throw that phrase out whenever you need a filler, as well.

How humorous it is that it applies more to what you have to say than to those like me silly enough to actually try to discuss with you.

Good luck to you.

Foreigner said:

LOL "Ad hominems."

Noticed you love to throw that phrase out whenever you need a filler, as well.

How humorous it is that it applies more to what you have to say than to those like me silly enough to actually try to discuss with you.

Good luck to you.

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Why would one discuss a Scriptural issue without a Scriptural argument?

* yawn *

Duckybill said:

David was not under the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:39 (NKJV)
[sup]39 [/sup]But I tell you not to resist an evil person.

Matthew 5:44 (NKJV)
[sup]44 [/sup]But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

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I can do the same thing you have done here and prove anything I can think up to be true. You have ripped scripture out of it's context and totally nullified it's usefulness, God does not like that! At least two times we are warned in the scriptures not to do what you have done, to change the Word of God! The fact is that there is no New Covenant. Even the Jew of today knows that there is no salvation but by faith and Jesus said it all when He spoke to the truth that He did not come to discard, even one small mark of the Law and the Prophets! What Jesus did was to complete the Covenant with man and that puts KING David under the same Covenant with God that you fall under. David did not ascend to Heaven until he had heard Jesus preach and teach in Paradise after His death on the cross, only then did he ascend to Heaven to be with God.

And shame on you for your misuse of the Beatitudes!

For all our supposedly peaceful intentions, there seems to be an awful lot of bullets and bombs fired from American guns and planes throughout the world.

When the smoke clears (if it clears) the same old rhetoric will still be heard inside the church and outside of it and IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with peace.

Obama (or Bush or whoever is in power) would declare a war every week if he could, in order to stir up patriotism and boost his ratings.

* * *
"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with justice and it seems that I can hear God saying to America,
'You are too arrogant. If you don't change your ways I will rise up and break the back bone of your power.'"
- Rev Martin Luthur King, Jr. (circa 1967)
* * *
"Curiously, Americans still believe that sending their sons and daughters to fight, die and become maimed in Washington’s wars is somehow 'serving our country and keeping us free.' The level of deception about America’s military is mind-boggling, and can be directly traced back to the churches of America.

Americans must stop and observe the FACTS. Fact is, war is just another business that maintains manufacturing jobs in America, one of the few remaining sectors of manufacturing that has not left America’s borders. It is the source of bottomless corruption, government waste and campaign contributions.

Washington will NEVER stop fomenting war until it runs out of money. So, do you want to live in a place that practices peace? It will never again happen here in the USA. If you want a nation that does not attack others, send its military outside its borders and waste billions of dollars in useless armaments and new weapons, where will you go?

You will stop supporting America and work for secession in the state where you want to live."

- Russell Longcore

[email protected] said:

For all our supposedly peaceful intentions, there seems to be an awful lot of bullets and bombs fired from American guns and planes throughout the world.

When the smoke clears (if it clears) the same old rhetoric will still be heard inside the church and outside of it and IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with peace.

Obama (or Bush or whoever is in power) would declare a war every week if he could, in order to stir up patriotism and boost his ratings.

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-- Right or wrong, your commentary really has nothing to do with this thread.

It WOULD if America was using all those "bullets and bombs" with the expressed purpose of spreading or enforcing Christianity.

But since that isn't the case...

Please notice that the primary conversation so far has mainly focused on the actions of individual Christians, not nations.

[email protected] said:

For all our supposedly peaceful intentions, there seems to be an awful lot of bullets and bombs fired from American guns and planes throughout the world.

When the smoke clears (if it clears) the same old rhetoric will still be heard inside the church and outside of it and IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with peace.

Obama (or Bush or whoever is in power) would declare a war every week if he could, in order to stir up patriotism and boost his ratings.

* * *
"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with justice and it seems that I can hear God saying to America,
'You are too arrogant. If you don't change your ways I will rise up and break the back bone of your power.'"
- Rev Martin Luthur King, Jr. (circa 1967)
* * *
"Curiously, Americans still believe that sending their sons and daughters to fight, die and become maimed in Washington’s wars is somehow 'serving our country and keeping us free.' The level of deception about America’s military is mind-boggling, and can be directly traced back to the churches of America.

Americans must stop and observe the FACTS. Fact is, war is just another business that maintains manufacturing jobs in America, one of the few remaining sectors of manufacturing that has not left America’s borders. It is the source of bottomless corruption, government waste and campaign contributions.

Washington will NEVER stop fomenting war until it runs out of money. So, do you want to live in a place that practices peace? It will never again happen here in the USA. If you want a nation that does not attack others, send its military outside its borders and waste billions of dollars in useless armaments and new weapons, where will you go?

You will stop supporting America and work for secession in the state where you want to live."

- Russell Longcore

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Well said my friend!