Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?

Emily Nghiem · Aug 1, 2021

Someone asked how could Adam be "easily manipulated" if man was made in God's image?

If you have a shorter answer than mine below,
please reply and I will share it with that person who asked.

=========================
At that early stage in human development
which Adam represents, starting with natural obedience to God's laws,
man has gained *self awareness* by opening our eyes to the nature of good and evil
and choice between them.

However, we STILL have not fully matured to self discipline and self govern ourselves,
but to THIS DAY human run institutions still fall to greed for control and selfish biases.

That is why our justice system is NOT PERFECT (nor our govts) but prone to
favor ONE group over OTHER interests and causing ENDLESS wars and conflicts.

That is why nations are at war over controlling economic resources, populations and boundaries,
defending one group from another threatening to invade or dominate.

We see this ALL the time.
Human beings are prone to selfish ego, biases and flaws which lead to corruption and abuse.
Easily "manipulated" by our fears and self interests to compromise the rights and equal protection of other groups and beliefs.

How is this not anything new?

The whole REASON that Christians celebrate and honor the sacrifice and redemption in Christ Jesus
is this represents breaking free from selfish conditions and receiving divine forgiveness, grace
and authority to establish TRUE universal and equal justice, which man is too selfish and flawed to achieve otherwise.

Before, with only Adam's "childlike" obedience to God's laws, this was NOT enough to
prevent the abuses of free will that lead to corruption by FEAR and selfishness.
To RESTORE the natural childlike state takes the process that JESUS represents,
of FORGIVING past transgressions to overcome FEAR with LOVE and restore
the natural image of man that reflects God again.

This ability to receive and RESTORE "Equal Justice" and live by the Spirit and Authority of higher laws
comes with the incarnation of JESUS into the world of man made corrupted by selfish ego and greed,
which the original sin represents.

When we reach an agreed understanding of what Jesus means as Equal Justice
Universal to all people, then we can finally mature and create peaceful means of maintaining justice in society.

Right now, no, we are still seeing selfish politics pit one group as superior over others.

Not quite ready to receive yet, but enough people ARE demanding corrections,
that if we CAN unite "in Christ" or "by Conscience" then we CAN agree on
how to establish true EQUAL JUSTICE and quit fighting over which way or which group is
going to dominate the process. It will really take ALL groups working together equally
to achieve Equal Justice and Peace for all people. Not just one group having all the right answers.

This is what we are going through now, that realization that for each
person or group teaching wrong things, that same person/group has right answers
that are part of the global solution.

When we forgive the wrongs and correct them by focusing on the right ideas
that each person/group has to offer, then we can put the collective solutions together
where everyone shares equal credit and responsibility for solving problems.

This is the process that the END of the Bible points to.

So from the BEGINNING of the process when Adam and Eve
represent the lineage of man with self awareness and conscience,
to the END stages where human conscience reaches full
realization of what it takes to establish universal truth, justice and peace,
the rest of the process in between is where all the changes and stages
of spiritual/social growth and development to maturity
occur over human history, and generational struggles,
that we are still seeing and going through today.

Curtis · Aug 2, 2021

Emily Nghiem said:
Someone asked how could Adam be "easily manipulated" if man was made in God's image?

If you have a shorter answer than mine below,
please reply and I will share it with that person who asked.

=========================
At that early stage in human development
which Adam represents, starting with natural obedience to God's laws,
man has gained *self awareness* by opening our eyes to the nature of good and evil
and choice between them.

However, we STILL have not fully matured to self discipline and self govern ourselves,
but to THIS DAY human run institutions still fall to greed for control and selfish biases.

That is why our justice system is NOT PERFECT (nor our govts) but prone to
favor ONE group over OTHER interests and causing ENDLESS wars and conflicts.

That is why nations are at war over controlling economic resources, populations and boundaries,
defending one group from another threatening to invade or dominate.

We see this ALL the time.
Human beings are prone to selfish ego, biases and flaws which lead to corruption and abuse.
Easily "manipulated" by our fears and self interests to compromise the rights and equal protection of other groups and beliefs.

How is this not anything new?

The whole REASON that Christians celebrate and honor the sacrifice and redemption in Christ Jesus
is this represents breaking free from selfish conditions and receiving divine forgiveness, grace
and authority to establish TRUE universal and equal justice, which man is too selfish and flawed to achieve otherwise.

Before, with only Adam's "childlike" obedience to God's laws, this was NOT enough to
prevent the abuses of free will that lead to corruption by FEAR and selfishness.
To RESTORE the natural childlike state takes the process that JESUS represents,
of FORGIVING past transgressions to overcome FEAR with LOVE and restore
the natural image of man that reflects God again.

This ability to receive and RESTORE "Equal Justice" and live by the Spirit and Authority of higher laws
comes with the incarnation of JESUS into the world of man made corrupted by selfish ego and greed,
which the original sin represents.

When we reach an agreed understanding of what Jesus means as Equal Justice
Universal to all people, then we can finally mature and create peaceful means of maintaining justice in society.

Right now, no, we are still seeing selfish politics pit one group as superior over others.

Not quite ready to receive yet, but enough people ARE demanding corrections,
that if we CAN unite "in Christ" or "by Conscience" then we CAN agree on
how to establish true EQUAL JUSTICE and quit fighting over which way or which group is
going to dominate the process. It will really take ALL groups working together equally
to achieve Equal Justice and Peace for all people. Not just one group having all the right answers.

This is what we are going through now, that realization that for each
person or group teaching wrong things, that same person/group has right answers
that are part of the global solution.

When we forgive the wrongs and correct them by focusing on the right ideas
that each person/group has to offer, then we can put the collective solutions together
where everyone shares equal credit and responsibility for solving problems.

This is the process that the END of the Bible points to.

So from the BEGINNING of the process when Adam and Eve
represent the lineage of man with self awareness and conscience,
to the END stages where human conscience reaches full
realization of what it takes to establish universal truth, justice and peace,
the rest of the process in between is where all the changes and stages
of spiritual/social growth and development to maturity
occur over human history, and generational struggles,
that we are still seeing and going through today.

Thats a lengthy explanation, but Adam wasn’t manipulated and wasn’t deceived, but Eve was.

Adam knew it was wrong to eat the forbidden fruit, but since his wife Eve was deceived and already ate the fruit, he also ate of it to share his wife’s fate, and stay with her.

Otherwise she’d be banned for life from Eden and from the tree of life, while Adam stayed there, alone.

Gen 3:11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Gen 3:12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

Shalom

marksman · Aug 2, 2021

Curtis said:
Thats a lengthy explanation, but Adam wasn’t manipulated and wasn’t deceived, but Eve was.

Adam knew it was wrong to eat the forbidden fruit, but since his wife Eve was deceived and already ate the fruit, he also ate of it to share his wife’s fate, and stay with her.

Otherwise she’d be banned for life from Eden and from the tree of life, while Adam stayed there, alone.

Gen 3:11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Gen 3:12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

Shalom

If you are married, you will know how he could have been manipulated.

Taken · Aug 2, 2021

Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?
OP ^

Gen 1:
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and femalecreated he them.

Gen 5:
[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Man-kind the outer Form, (Body) was "Created" in a LOOK SIMILAR to God.

Man-kind's inner, (of the Body) was "Made" in the LIKENESS SIMILAR to God.

God has a head, ears, eyes, nose, mouth, heart, mind, arms, hands....
So also does man-kind.

God Knows right/ wrong, good/evil, up/down, in/out, with/without and has a Will to Choose ...
So also does man-kind.

Man-kind IS SIMILAR, to God, but IS NOT GOD.

From moment to moment...per mans own Will...man-kind can Be IN Gods "LIKENESS"... mimicking God, choosing the SAME AS God chooses....or not.

Adam in one moment, by his will Chose to be in Gods Likeness, then by his will Chose to be in the Devils Likeness.

Taken · Aug 2, 2021

Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?
OP^

WHY?
Because,
Man has Freewill.
Because,
Man is more dependent upon believing What he "sees", above What he "hears".

Eve debated with the Serpent what she had HEARD....but then was convinced to reach out and TAKE...what she SAW.

Gen 2:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:

Gen 3:
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Emily Nghiem · Aug 2, 2021

Curtis said:
Thats a lengthy explanation, but Adam wasn’t manipulated and wasn’t deceived, but Eve was.

Adam knew it was wrong to eat the forbidden fruit, but since his wife Eve was deceived and already ate the fruit, he also ate of it to share his wife’s fate, and stay with her.

Otherwise she’d be banned for life from Eden and from the tree of life, while Adam stayed there, alone.

Gen 3:11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Gen 3:12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

Shalom

So Adam was made in the image of God but Eve was not?

Wasn't the combination of Adam and Eve as complementary
and one in spirit a reflection of God having both the
male and female spirit combined. Nature is still part of God
and yet Nature is personified as female. The maternal love
and the paternal love are both manifestations of God.

My take on this is was that Adam and Eve represent
the initial stage of development of ego/conscience/consciousness
or self awareness, but humanity at that point was NOT mature
as we are now when we have ability to reconcile with God through Christ Jesus.

Jesus did not go through the sacrifice and redemption process
until later, after the Fall of humanity.

But that is my way of explaining why man was not able to obey God
before we had Jesus to reconcile man's will with God's will.

How would you describe the difference between
man's nature "made in the image of God"
BEFORE and AFTER the introduction of Jesus incarnated on our human level?

Thank you @Curtis

Emily Nghiem · Aug 2, 2021

Taken said:
Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?
OP ^

Gen 1:
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and femalecreated he them.

Gen 5:
[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Man-kind the outer Form, (Body) was "Created" in a LOOK SIMILAR to God.

Man-kind's inner, (of the Body) was "Made" in the LIKENESS SIMILAR to God.

God has a head, ears, eyes, nose, mouth, heart, mind, arms, hands....
So also does man-kind.

God Knows right/ wrong, good/evil, up/down, in/out, with/without and has a Will to Choose ...
So also does man-kind.

Man-kind IS SIMILAR, to God, but IS NOT GOD.

From moment to moment...per mans own Will...man-kind can Be IN Gods "LIKENESS"... mimicking God, choosing the SAME AS God chooses....or not.

Adam in one moment, by his will Chose to be in Gods Likeness, then by his will Chose to be in the Devils Likeness.

Dear @Taken
Would you say that BEFORE Jesus Christ came to reconcile man and God
Adam represents the initial lineage of man where humans
could NOT control our free will by "blind faith" and "just obey God because the instruction was given."

Would you say it took a process AFTER the falling out,
where God sent Moses to lay down the laws IN WRITING
to start teaching and letting people learn from experience
the difference between our will and what God's will and laws are.

Then after a period of learning from that,
then Jesus was sent to embody the SPIRIT of the laws (not just the letter)
and incarnate that Spirit of God's perfect Justice/Law/Word into our human realm of experience.

And this took both sacrificing and redemption through Christ
in order to establish God's justice and Word/Law.

So we are still going through this process of reception and redemption
through Christ Jesus to finish this reconciliation process.

Then we will be able to embody and invoke the Authority of Jesus
which DOES allow us to reconcile and submit our free will to God's will
where we could not do this before without Jesus.

This is how I understand the process.

How would you say this?
In Biblical terms or explanations?

Taken · Aug 2, 2021

Emily Nghiem said:
Taken

This is how I understand the process.

How would you say this?
In Biblical terms or explanations?

I would say the everlasting Heavenly Lord God Almighty is the Creator and Maker of all things.
That this same God, created and made an earthly man; For Gods Pleasure;
...and "with" the ability to HEAR, and UNDERSTAND "God" In the mans "natural spirit in his heart"...and
The mans ability to HEAR, and UNDERSTAND "other men" In the mans "natural carnal mind".

When a man IS HEARING God:
...the man IS Receiving Gods gift of FAITH.
(BECAUSE, by and through, Gods GRACE).
And When a man IS HEARING another man:
...the man IS Receiving the other mans THOUGHTS.

The man IN either case; is Freely choosing TO BELIEVE, either/or both/or neither.

God IS Invisible to mankind in ALL Manners..
(Direct seeing or hearing).
From the beginnng of mankind;
God Himself MADE A WAY, for mankind TO HEAR God, and then OBSERVE with their EYES, what God said WOULD come to pass.. (expressly for mankinds ability to TRUST to believe IN Gods existence and He is Faithful and True).

Gods WORD coming to Earth In the (the manner God chose) i.e. - "LIKENESS AS AN EARTHLY MAN"... was Firstly God fulfilling a Promise TO Stiffnecked, Stubborn men, That could not Believe WITHOUT SEEING
* Thereafter...Gods Word fulfilled many other of Gods foretelling and revealed more of Gods Knowledge and Understanding that "had been" kept secret from early mankind.

* In the big scheme of things...
Nothing has changed...
A man HEARING Gods Word, is (3 fold)..
* that man is receiving (BY GODS GRACE) a gift of Faith from God.
* Gods HS is WITH that man.
* If the man BELIEVES what he is hearing;
(Gods HS remains) WITH that man.

* Similar is between man and man...
A man HEARING another man, is also accounted "WITH" the other man, if he is believing the other man.

* Men and woman, are continuously "WITH" other men and woman...STAY "WITH"...OR "LEAVE" and thus are "WITHOUT".
(Commonly called; steady, married, vowed, or broke up, severed a friendship, divorce, etc.)

* Same is men and women, "WITH" God...or LEAVE and are thus "WITHOUT" God.
(Spiritually, per Scripture, that ^ is called "fallen from GRACE"...(Gal 5:4) because the man has rejected the positive effects of Gods Faith, is accountable TO God.

* The Word of God, Called JESUS, Revealed (new knowledge and understanding)... called a "better testament", (Heb 7:22) we commonly call the "New Testament".

* This New Testament; By and Through the Word of God; Offered mankind...A WAY...
TO: NOT "ONLY" be "WITH" Gods Spirit, and Gods Spirit 'WITH" the man...
* BUT SOMETHING BETTER:
An Option...TO FOREVER: Have the Lord God Almighty...."WITH and IN" the man.

*This Option offered mankind...is Scripturally taught...Exactly HOW this can be accomplished BY GODS WORKS, IN the man.

*This Option is coupled with, notice:
to every man;
~ The Choosing must be accomplished while the man is earthly alive in his flesh body.
(Ecc 9:
[5] ...the dead know not any thing...)

~ The Choosing Should be after the man has given it great consideration.
(2 Pet 1:
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to "make your calling and election sure:" )

~ This Choice "IS PERMANENT" Once and forever.
Sanctified...(set apart)

WITH...is temporary
Jesus' prayed, men would choose...
WITH AND IN...Permantly FOR EVER.
John 14:
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

WITH and IN...is permanent
Heb 10:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that "ARE" sanctified.

1 Cor 6: WERE: (unbelievers, drunkards, thieves, etc.)
1 Cor 6:
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Called; "IN CHRIST". "Permanent".

Rom 8:
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matt 6:
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Glory to God,
Take

Stumpmaster · Aug 2, 2021

Emily Nghiem said:
Someone asked how could Adam be "easily manipulated" if man was made in God's image?

Hi Emily,

This is a good question. Thanks for posting it. These forums allow many points of view to be expressed but hopefully you will be able to arrive at a solid Scriptural answer to give others should the occasion arise.

The premise that being made in God's image somehow ensured all His instructions would automatically be obeyed is not a valid one. Being made in God's image does mean being designed and created according to His blueprint, but since this blueprint included the capacity to make choices and voluntarily comply or not with known conditions and entities, the inevitability of opposition to God's Will had to be woven into the dynamic of Creation which is why the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil was placed in the Garden of Eden.

God did not set Adam and Eve up to fail the test but foreknew they would given exposure to the corrupting, deceiving, and exploiting influence of Satan, who had once been perfect and privileged to enjoy Eden himself, but sought to usurp the role of God and take control of His relationship with Adam and Eve, and therefore all mankind.

quietthinker · Aug 2, 2021

Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?
I'd say it was because he loved Eve.

Curtis · Aug 3, 2021

marksman said:
If you are married, you will know how he could have been manipulated.

Been married since 1984, and understood very well that if Adam loved Eve, he wanted to stay with her - not stay in Eden alone while she was kicked out.

Shalom

GEN2REV · Aug 18, 2021

I think one of the best ways to understand many of the difficult concepts in the Bible, especially when our human logic and reasoning demand to be heard, is to accept God as more of an author than a referee of sorts.

Many of the confusing events that take place in scripture can be chalked up to 'God simply wanted it that way.'

When you think about it, God knew all along that Lucifer would fall. Of course He knew.

But we can take it even a step further. He not only knows what will become of us, He intends it.

Yes, ... He actually creates some for destruction ... and some for salvation.
Romans 9:22-23

His plan is SO complex that we cannot fully imagine it in its entirety, but He actually intends the fate of all ... for a very specific reason ... somewhere WAY down the line.

His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are unsearchable.
Isaiah 55:8-9
Romans 11:33,36

God is like the ULTIMATE Chess Player. Except He made the board and every piece ... and all the moves are His own.

Stumpmaster · Aug 18, 2021

GEN2REV said:
Yes, ... He actually creates some for destruction ... and some for salvation.
Romans 9:22-23

A commonly misapplied passage.

Divine Foreknowledge of Satan's original sin and of the sins of all those who remain stubbornly resistant and opposed to God, is intrinsic to the consequences He has predetermined for them, otherwise Judgment Day is a farce.

Jas 1:12-18 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (13) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (16) Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. (17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. (18) Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

GEN2REV · Aug 18, 2021

Stumpmaster said:
A commonly misapplied passage.

Ohhhh another misapplied passage!

That's rich.

Compare these verses to Romans 9:22-23
Habakkuk 1:12
1 Peter 2:8
2 Peter 2:12
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:10

Stumpmaster said:
Divine Foreknowledge of Satan's original sin and of the sins of all those who remain stubbornly resistant and opposed to God, is intrinsic to the consequences He has predetermined for them, otherwise Judgment Day is a farce.

I'm not sure this quote is an explanation of how I misapplied Romans 9:22-23. You might want to elaborate what you mean by that.

If you're trying to say that 'God creating some for destruction' would make Judgment Day a farce, that would be from YOUR OWN very limited human reasoning. (relative to God's)

Judgment Day will be much more about punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous than it will be about actually weighing anybody's life in the scales. We are weighed in the scales every single day, with every thought, word and deed that we choose. By the time of the Judgment, the fate of all who have ever lived will already be long since decided.

God is so far beyond our comprehension that Yes, He CAN create man with free will AND have everything in his life turn out exactly as planned. It is HIS story … and He can have it both ways. Far too many people have belittled Him and second-guessed His abilities with their piddly rationalizations and arrogant powers of reasoning which are literally laughable to Him. He laughs at the wicked, with all their scheming, because HE KNOWS WHAT THEIR END WILL BE.(Psalm 37:13)

The old-world Faithful would put their whole trust in Him and didn't question anything. Faith was far less diminished back then by Hollywood and Science and College Professors and experts on this and that.

The modern world has made Him too small. He knows the end from the beginning because ... He wrote the book.(Not just the Bible, but everything that ever will be.)

God is The ALL MIGHTY and He creates Light AND darkness. He creates Good AND evil. He created the devil AND He gave man free will, while also KNOWING who would rise and who would fall. He does ALL THESE THINGS.

The Tares were planted by the devil to harass and oppress the Wheat and God MADE the devil to do exactly that. God MADE the Wheat and He KNEW that many would fall.

God doesn't care if we agree with how He does things. He is the SOVEREIGN Creator of every … thing … we … know. Every breath we take, every single beat of our heart is by express permission from Him.

That IS the way it IS. Humble yourselves and accept the Truth of these things.

Curtis · Aug 19, 2021

GEN2REV said:
I think one of the best ways to understand many of the difficult concepts in the Bible, especially when our human logic and reasoning demand to be heard, is to accept God as more of an author than a referee of sorts.

Many of the confusing events that take place in scripture can be chalked up to 'God simply wanted it that way.'

When you think about it, God knew all along that Lucifer would fall. Of course He knew.

But we can take it even a step further. He not only knows what will become of us, He intends it.

Yes, ... He actually creates some for destruction ... and some for salvation.
Romans 9:22-23

His plan is SO complex that we cannot fully imagine it in its entirety, but He actually intends the fate of all ... for a very specific reason ... somewhere WAY down the line.

His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are unsearchable.
Isaiah 55:8-9
Romans 11:33,36

God is like the ULTIMATE Chess Player. Except He made the board and every piece ... and all the moves are His own.

Romans 9 says nothing of the kind. It is completely misinterpreted by Calvinists who infer their doctrine into scripture- and they have no clue that Paul is quoting the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah.

Here is refutation of the Calvinist claims about the potter and the clay, from Romans 9:

Jeremiah 18 is the potter and clay chapter, and it is actually what Paul is referring to in Romans 9.

It refutes the Calvinist Romans 9 narrative, completely.

The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.

As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)

And ISRAEL, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not ANY individual person - and as Jeremiah 18 shows us, God gives mercy on whom He wills - and He wills to have mercy on those who repent.

The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Who’s on the potters wheel? Esau?

No. Israel is. There’s no individual person in the entire Potter and Clay chapter of Jeremiah 18.

The Romans 9 account of Jacob and Esau is not about those two as individuals, but as progenitors of two nations.

Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: TWO NATIONS are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)

We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.

No nation (or person) is predestined to destruction!

Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

So as we can see, Romans 9 is clearly about nations, and not about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the predestined reprobation of Esau into hell, as the Calvinist claims.

The fate of the nations (receiving Gods mercy, or Gods wrath) is dependent on WHAT THEY DO - and is not dependent on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted only for destruction, or being predestined to receive Gods mercy - and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not in any way and about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.

God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.

That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed election doctrines.

BTW, the fact that in Romans 9 it states that God hated Esaus but loved Jacob is used as proof that Esau was of the unlucky non elect, predestined to reprobation, hell, and damnation.

But in reality that statement by God about Esau is a well known idiom of the Jews that means to love less - not to literally hate - which is easily proven by Jesus telling us in Luke 14, that unless we hate our mother and father, and whole family, we aren’t worthy to be His disciples.

It’s obvious that Jesus isn’t teaching us to violate the command to honor our mother and father, or violate the law of love that Jesus proclaimed, that we must love our neighbors as ourselves, and to hate them, instead.

Jesus is actually saying that we must love Him so much that we hate our family in comparison:

Luk 14:26 If any mancome to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

God loved Esau less than Jacob, and did not actually hate him: therefore another Calvinist proof text for their version of election and predestination, bites the dust.

Jeremiah 18 indeed refutes the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, that claims it’s about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the reprobation of Esau to damnation, and claims it is proof that God only has mercy on the elect, and has none for individuals that He predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction.

God has mercy on those who repent, and takes back His mercy from those who turn to evil.

quietthinker · Aug 19, 2021

Curtis said:
Romans 9 says nothing of the kind. It is completely misinterpreted by Calvinists who infer their doctrine into scripture- and they have no clue that Paul is quoting the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah.

Here is refutation of the Calvinist claims about the potter and the clay, from Romans 9:

Jeremiah 18 is the potter and clay chapter, and it is actually what Paul is referring to in Romans 9.

It refutes the Calvinist Romans 9 narrative, completely.

The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.

As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)

And ISRAEL, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not ANY individual person - and as Jeremiah 18 shows us, God gives mercy on whom He wills - and He wills to have mercy on those who repent.

The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Who’s on the potters wheel? Esau?

No. Israel is. There’s no individual person in the entire Potter and Clay chapter of Jeremiah 18.

The Romans 9 account of Jacob and Esau is not about those two as individuals, but as progenitors of two nations.

Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: TWO NATIONS are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)

We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.

No nation (or person) is predestined to destruction!

Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

So as we can see, Romans 9 is clearly about nations, and not about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the predestined reprobation of Esau into hell, as the Calvinist claims.

The fate of the nations (receiving Gods mercy, or Gods wrath) is dependent on WHAT THEY DO - and is not dependent on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted only for destruction, or being predestined to receive Gods mercy - and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not in any way and about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.

God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.

That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed election doctrines.

BTW, the fact that in Romans 9 it states that God hated Esaus but loved Jacob is used as proof that Esau was of the unlucky non elect, predestined to reprobation, hell, and damnation.

But in reality that statement by God about Esau is a well known idiom of the Jews that means to love less - not to literally hate - which is easily proven by Jesus telling us in Luke 14, that unless we hate our mother and father, and whole family, we aren’t worthy to be His disciples.

It’s obvious that Jesus isn’t teaching us to violate the command to honor our mother and father, or violate the law of love that Jesus proclaimed, that we must love our neighbors as ourselves, and to hate them, instead.

Jesus is actually saying that we must love Him so much that we hate our family in comparison:

Luk 14:26 If any mancome to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

God loved Esau less than Jacob, and did not actually hate him: therefore another Calvinist proof text for their version of election and predestination, bites the dust.

Jeremiah 18 indeed refutes the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, that claims it’s about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the reprobation of Esau to damnation, and claims it is proof that God only has mercy on the elect, and has none for individuals that He predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction.

God has mercy on those who repent, and takes back His mercy from those who turn to evil.

I think he has mercy on all of us. Jesus is the definitive word of God....he trumps all that came before him in the sense that he defines God’s character accurately. Jesus is not subject to the understandings Israel had....he sharpened their understanding, they did not sharpen his.
If we attempt to understand or interpret God soley by the prophets our understanding remains wanting.

Stumpmaster · Aug 19, 2021

quietthinker said:
If we attempt to understand or interpret God soley by the prophets our understanding remains wanting.

Good point but we should factor in the major rebukes Jesus had, and which God makes in Scripture, of failure to heed the prophets.

Fortunately we are regenerated through the living and enduring Word of God which is proclaimed to us, its Divine dynamic doing what human efforts without the Spirit cannot.

Berean Study Bible 1Peter 1:22-25

22 Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All flesh is like grass,

and all its glory like the flowers of the field;

the grass withers and the flowers fall,

25 but the word of the Lord stands forever.”f

And this is the word that was proclaimed to you.

See also Jas 1:21; 1Co 4:15; etc.

Emily Nghiem · Aug 19, 2021

GEN2REV said:
Ohhhh another misapplied passage!

That's rich.

Compare these verses to Romans 9:22-23
Habakkuk 1:12
1 Peter 2:8
2 Peter 2:12
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:10
I'm not sure this quote is an explanation of how I misapplied Romans 9:22-23. You might want to elaborate what you mean by that.

If you're trying to say that 'God creating some for destruction' would make Judgment Day a farce, that would be from YOUR OWN very limited human reasoning. (relative to God's)

Judgment Day will be much more about punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous than it will be about actually weighing anybody's life in the scales. We are weighed in the scales every single day, with every thought, word and deed that we choose. By the time of the Judgment, the fate of all who have ever lived will already be long since decided.

God is so far beyond our comprehension that Yes, He CAN create man with free will AND have everything in his life turn out exactly as planned. It is HIS story … and He can have it both ways. Far too many people have belittled Him and second-guessed His abilities with their piddly rationalizations and arrogant powers of reasoning which are literally laughable to Him. He laughs at the wicked, with all their scheming, because HE KNOWS WHAT THEIR END WILL BE.(Psalm 37:13)

The old-world Faithful would put their whole trust in Him and didn't question anything. Faith was far less diminished back then by Hollywood and Science and College Professors and experts on this and that.

The modern world has made Him too small. He knows the end from the beginning because ... He wrote the book.(Not just the Bible, but everything that ever will be.)

God is The ALL MIGHTY and He creates Light AND darkness. He creates Good AND evil. He created the devil AND He gave man free will, while also KNOWING who would rise and who would fall. He does ALL THESE THINGS.

The Tares were planted by the devil to harass and oppress the Wheat and God MADE the devil to do exactly that. God MADE the Wheat and He KNEW that many would fall.

God doesn't care if we agree with how He does things. He is the SOVEREIGN Creator of every … thing … we … know. Every breath we take, every single beat of our heart is by express permission from Him.

That IS the way it IS. Humble yourselves and accept the Truth of these things.

Dear @GEN2REV
I agree God's ways always turn out to be greater than ours, than anything we imagined.

Knowing and seeing how God works, the best way to reward or punish us is to hold us to our own words and what we judge or wish on others.

So my understanding of what Judgment Day would be like is a collective version of what we see now: people judging and criticizing others getting those words thrown back at them. Atheists held to their own secular arguments and standards while Pharisees preaching condemnation by the Bible are held to their own decrees against them.

Another big surprise: Those who prayed for their sins to be forgiven may be shocked when the sins of those they condemn are forgiven to the same they wanted for themselves.

The biggest lessons I have learned in life: watch what you pray for, because when God answers the prayer, you may get what you prayed for in a greater way than what you thought....

michaelvpardo · Aug 19, 2021

Short answer: He wasn't manipulated but made a choice based upon reason without understanding the consequences.
1 He didn't know the difference between good and evil.
2 He'd never seen death.
3 His wife, flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone, his only companion and "helpmate", kind of took the choice away from him by eating of the forbidden fruit already.
4 God spoke with him face to face like a friend and being "as God" probably seemed like a good idea, given that Eve was still alive after tasting the fruit.

GEN2REV · Aug 19, 2021

Emily Nghiem said:
The biggest lessons I have learned in life: watch what you pray for, because when God answers the prayer, you may get what you prayed for in a greater way than what you thought....

So true.

If you ever pray for more patience or more opportunities to serve, … watch out!

God bless.

Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?

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