Are Christians sinners?

Hi Episkopis,

Your doctrine even condemns yourself.
When asked if you perfectly obey the commandents you admit you don't.
When asked if you have fallen from grace you admit you have.

Then you say: "So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

But, Rom 11:6 tells us it's either grace OR works of the law. It can't be both.
Your doctrine of mixing grace and works is contrary to scripture.

haz said:

Hi Episkopis,

Your doctrine even condemns yourself.
When asked if you perfectly obey the commandents you admit you don't.
When asked if you have fallen from grace you admit you have.

Then you say: "So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

But, Rom 11:6 tells us it's either grace OR works of the law. It can't be both.
Your doctrine of mixing grace and works is contrary to scripture.

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My doctrine does not come from what is convenient for me. I prefer the truth no matter if it condemns me or not.

We are saved to do the works of God. We are not saved in order to become saved.

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When I was referring to bible commentators I meant commentators used by the Holy Spirit in deeper truths.There are men used by God in greater areas than others concerning understanding and walking in the Scriptures. Men who walk close with God by depending on Him only for everything. These will have the deepest understanding of the Spirit's teachings. There aren't many now days!

Hi Netchaplan,

Trust God instead (not man's commentaries) for getting understanding.

1John2:27
"[sup] [/sup]But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him".

Psalm 118:8
"It is better to trust in the LORD Than to put confidence in man".

Episkopos said:

My doctrine does not come from what is convenient for me. I prefer the truth no matter if it condemns me or not.

We are saved to do the works of God. We are not saved in order to become saved.

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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Hi Episkopis,

It is unfortunate that you choose self-condemnation believing it to be truth.

It's the Spirit within a man that gives him understanding so truth is revealed thereby.

But I'll answer a couple of your points anyway.

You said: "Believing in Jesus without the power to walk as Jesus is pointless in regards eternity."
Also: ""So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

But, the criminal on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was told by Jesus that he would be with him in paradise that day. And that with no mention of perfectly keeping the commandments.

Either that criminal got fast tracked into being able to "walk as Jesus" (as that would fit your doctrine) or he did the "works of God".

And what are the works of God that the criminal on the cross did?
"believe on him whom he hath sent" John 6:29

haz said:

Hi Rach,

It's good to see that we agree on much now that preconceptions and the limitations of forum communications is being addressed.

Regarding some sticking points, I'll discuss these below.
You said: " I still can't quite come at the phrasing 'cannot sin/ceased from sin'...simply because it's inaccurate."

But it is accurate. Scripture confirms it.
"freed from sin", Rom 7:7, John 8:36
"ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9

You even confirmed it when you said: "when God looks at us, He sees Christ's life/works/perfection."
If God sees us this way then we also should see ourselves this way too. It's accurate.

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What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (Romans 7:7 ESV)

Uhm, can't see this saying 'freed from sin'...did you get the wrong verse? (I hate when that happens!!)

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8:36 ESV)

Yeah, I see this as saying we are set free from both the guilt and the life-controlling power of sin. Which is different to being freed to cease sinning at all...to being unable to sin. Actually, I think it's a big difference!

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. (1 Peter 4:1-2 ESV)

I believe Peter’s point is that when believers are willing to suffer, the nerve centre of sin is severed in their lives. Although believers will never be totally free from sin in this life (, when believers endure suffering for the sake of Christ they show that their purpose in life is not to live for their own pleasures but according to the will of God and for his glory.

Perhaps the best verse to sum up what I'm trying to say is this:

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
(James 3:1-2 ESV)

If we say we don't 'stumble', or sin...we are, in fact, claiming to be perfect. Clearly we are not...so we need to be very careful how we say that Christ has 'freed' us from sin. As I said before...there is a large difference to being freed from the power of sin...it's curse and outcome....to being made sin free.

However it's not an applicable description for this imperfect physical life we live. But remember, our body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).

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Ummmm, your last question kind of deals with my response to this paragraph...so i'll refer my answer to the end of the page!!

Your concern about the hostile view that Christians are hypocrites is not based on Christians claiming to be without sin. After-all, the traditional language/view amongst christians is that they do sin.

The hostile view held by non-Christians is more to do with the judgemental criticisms/accusations made by Christians against the lifestyle of non-believers. This is seen as hypocritical considering the lifestyle of many Christians.

Instead of judging/accusing non-believers of sin due to their lifestyle, Christians should preach the gospel. How God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Remember it's the sin of unbelief that the world is convicted of (John 16:9).
Anyone who turns to Christ, then God will work in their lives to build them up.

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I agree with this...but I do wonder at a particular sentence of yours...."This is seen as hypocritical considering the lifestyle of many Christians."
Okay...we both know we are not perfect...clearly our lives show our faults...enough for others to see it. So I'm still stuck on how you see those things as not mattering? I'm not talking in the nature of works righteousness. I'm not saying that we need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and that will fix things! Part of being set free from sin is been given the opportunity to walk away from the sin in your life. You are no longer a slave to it. It's like the example of a slave...literally! When slavery was legal, the slaves had no choice...they were bound to be slaves and there was nothing that they could do about it. But when the law past in America, suddenly they were free! We hear of stories of those who chose to stay with their old 'masters' (granted in that case those masters must have been extremely kind for the freed people to want to stay!)...but the choice was there for them to be able to walk away. It is the same here....Jesus' work on the cross, and the power of the Holy Spirit gives us the choice to turn and walk away...we are no longer forced and bound to our sin. Too often Christians will choose to stay with their sin for way too long before realising the wonder that Christ has given them! And then, of course, there is always new sin! We need to be in a close relationship with God, listening carefully for his word of 'sin' in our hearts. When we hear this, we confess it, repent of it, and walk away from it. It's not a requirement of salvation....it's the wonder that comes because of it!!!

You quoted 2Cor 7:9 regarding repentance. But consider verse 10 also to see it's context.
"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. [sup] [/sup]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation,"

Here we see it refers to repentance to salvation.

Likewise Rev 2:25
"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent"

What are those works we did when we first became Christians?
"believe on him whom he hath sent" John 6:29

The Galatians are an example a church that needed to repent and turn back to their first works.
Gal 3:1-4
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?[sup] [/sup]This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?[sup] [/sup]Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

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Actually I believe that 2 Cor 7:10 is better explained like this:
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation
These words contain a reason, proving that they had received no damage, but profit by the sorrow that had possessed them, from the nature of it, a "godly" sorrow; a sorrow which had God for its author; it did not arise from the power of free will, nor from the dictates of a natural conscience, nor from a work of the law on their hearts, or from a fear of hell and damnation, but it sprung from the free grace of God; it was a gift of his grace, the work of his Spirit, and the produce of his almighty power; being such, which no means, as judgements, mercies, or the most powerful ministry of themselves could effect; it was owing to divine instructions; it was heightened and increased with a discovery of the love of God, and views of pardoning grace and mercy being attended with faith in the Lord Jesus"

Remember, Paul is writing to those who are already Christian...now, granted we don't want to get into assurance of salvation here, but I believe we need to approach this verse

Hi Rach,

You asked: "but how do we deal with what our dead, but still present body does??"

I guess that's where the answer Jesus gave in Matt 18:21,22 comes in.
"Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”[sup] [/sup]Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

God knows how weak and imperfect this physical life is. And just as He forgave us so we should also do likewise.

How we deal with this imperfect physical life is to trust God and let Him work in each of us, whatever stage we are at in our Christian walk. We can't change in our own strength. But the more we let go and trust in God, He will make the changes in us.

But remember that the real issue is that we endure to the end, believing on Jesus (2Tim 2:12, Mark 13:13)

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See, once again I feel we are not so different...expect in terminology...which wouldn't be a problem, normally...but I can't help but feel that your terminology leads to some very faulty doctrinal assumptions.

I know God forgives us when we sin. I know we are not to hold something over ourselves that God has himself forgiven. I'm not saying we sin just so we can feel bad about ourselves...or lead to doubt in God's promise to forgive us. You said "trust in God and let him work in each of us, whatever stage we are at in our Christian walk. We can't change in our own strength." I agree with this...only I'd say it a little differently. I'd say that 'the walk' is the constant steps of conviction, repentance, forgiveness, move forward and away from that sin. Of course we cannot do this alone, of course we needs God's help to do this...but while we can do nothing to boast of, we shouldn't expect to just 'live' and hope that if God disproves of that sin, then he'll take care of it while I sit here! Sanctification is the walk where we already have salvation and all the wonderful things that come with it, and we take God's hand and walk with him, addressing the things he brings up. This is how real maturity come! Imagine doing everything for your kids...they'd never learn! You may buy them all they need, provide everything, teach them how...but at some point they need to agree to work with you and some 'learning' projects...or leaning will never happen. Doesn't mean that they aren't your kids, doesn't mean you won't love them or forgive them for their stumbles. But you do expect them to join in. God asks that of us too. Not just so we are moving forward and learning...in and of itself...but the more we grow and learn...the more we do through the power of God, the more glory is given to him! Don't we want to give him all the glory for our transforming lives...our walk??

Hi Rach,

Regarding those scriptures I listed, you are correct, one of them was incorrect. The verse written was correct, but the reference to Rom 7:7 was incorrect.

"freed from sin", Rom 6:7, John 8:36
"ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9

Scripture confirms scripture. Consider the following.

Rom 6:7
"our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with,"

Rom 6:3
"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

1Pet 4:1
"since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (Rom 6:6 our old man crucified with him), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin"

Rom 8:10
"if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin,

1John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed (Christ) remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

These scriptures all confirm each other that Christians have truly ceased from sin.

Having said that, I agree that the application of different teminology, as we both have, is often not a problem. But, like you, I recognize that faulty doctrinal assumptions can arise from a faulty terminology.

An example is that "habitual sin" doctrine from Stott's commentary. This doctrine is so ambiguous and yet condemning that some Christians will be decieved into following works of the law doctrines for salvation. And some others into believing they have lost their salvation because of having committed wrongful acts too often. I have even heard some thinking that they can lose their salvation should they die having missed/forgotten repenting for some alleged sin.

haz said:

Hi Netchaplan,

Trust God instead (not man's commentaries) for getting understanding.

1John2:27
"[sup] [/sup]But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him".

Psalm 118:8
"It is better to trust in the LORD Than to put confidence in man".



Hi Episkopis,

It is unfortunate that you choose self-condemnation believing it to be truth.

It's the Spirit within a man that gives him understanding so truth is revealed thereby.

But I'll answer a couple of your points anyway.

You said: "Believing in Jesus without the power to walk as Jesus is pointless in regards eternity."
Also: ""So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

But, the criminal on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was told by Jesus that he would be with him in paradise that day. And that with no mention of perfectly keeping the commandments.

Either that criminal got fast tracked into being able to "walk as Jesus" (as that would fit your doctrine) or he did the "works of God".

And what are the works of God that the criminal on the cross did?
"believe on him whom he hath sent" John 6:29

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And Peter also denied Christ... The church was not born until Pentecost with the resurrection power of Christ being given to men.

Don't confuse salvation with the kingdom of God. OT saints did not know the gospel and they were saved anyway. But now that he gospel is available together with the grace released through the resurrection of Jesus, we are held to a higher standard.

In regards self-condemnation..you are thinking that we should be reading the bible according to what pleases us. But the truth is the truth. A righteous man swears to his own hurt. Maybe with all the modern subversions of the truth you have not realized this?

Psa_15:4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.

If we only are willing to believe in what makes us happy...then we are looking for a happy pill that has nothing to do with the truth. This is common among "Christtians" so that the faith rather than being based on the truth is actually used as an "opiate of the people" as Karl Marx stated. So we bring shame on Jesus Christ by using the bible to please ourselves rather than God.

haz said:

Hi Rach,

Regarding those scriptures I listed, you are correct, one of them was incorrect. The verse written was correct, but the reference to Rom 7:7 was incorrect.

"freed from sin", Rom 6:7, John 8:36
"ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9

Scripture confirms scripture. Consider the following.

Rom 6:7
"our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with,"

Rom 6:3
"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

1Pet 4:1
"since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (Rom 6:6 our old man crucified with him), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin"

Rom 8:10
"if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin,

1John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed (Christ) remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

These scriptures all confirm each other that Christians have truly ceased from sin.

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Okay...I believe that the trouble I'm having with all of this is the simple lack of sense. Not that I mean that in a rude sense! Just that...the wonder of reading scripture is that is resonates with a deep sense of truth within me. I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, who rejoices in the truth. Whenever I'm reading something I don't understand, or someone preaches something I believe to be wrong...I don't get this feeling. To say that we have 'truly ceased from sin'....when I know myself very well...I live with my actions everyday...I see every other Christian around me doing the same things....well, I know we have not 'ceased' from sin. We have ceased to be slaves to sin...our salvation is assured. The true freedom and joy of the cross is that I can see these things in myself and my brothers and sisters and know that God will never punish me for my stumbles. No! Indeed he will take my hand and help me up from them. To say that I don't sin dismisses a large part of that wonder...and I'm sorry...it makes me feel very uneasy to say 'I have ceased from sin'. I feel I'm trying to lie to God...and He knows all of me...he knows the truth, and loves me anyway. I don't need to lie, I just need to ask for his constant help!

Now, I do feel that perhaps I'm missing something in the whole 'put to death with Christ' thing...I have been reading up on it for weeks now....but I have not come across and kind of different explanation from what I have given you. And despite what I might be missing, it doesn't change the fact that we stumble...which means 'sin' (Jas 3:1-2). Now, I'm quite happy for you to try and show me what I might be missing, but unfortunately thus far, I'm really not getting what your saying. New tact?

Having said that, I agree that the application of different teminology, as we both have, is often not a problem. But, like you, I recognize that faulty doctrinal assumptions can arise from a faulty terminology.

An example is that "habitual sin" doctrine from Stott's commentary. This doctrine is so ambiguous and yet condemning that some Christians will be decieved into following works of the law doctrines for salvation. And some others into believing they have lost their salvation because of having committed wrongful acts too often. I have even heard some thinking that they can lose their salvation should they die having missed/forgotten repenting for some alleged sin.

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Well, not wanting to get into a flinging match over who's doctrine is more faulty and ambiguous, I do have to say that you're placing a whole lot on the supposition that 1 John 1 is written to a completely different audience than the rest of his letters. Sorry, that doesn't even make sense, let alone have any kind of evidence to back it up! You are reading it that way simply because if you don't, it puts a giant hole in your 'we don't have sin' idea.
I'm sorry, I'm trying, but I really can't quite understand where you are coming from. You've admitted we 'stumble'...which Jas 3:1-2 tells us is 'sin'. You've admitted that as Christian's we have a life long process of growth...which I call sanctification...a process of repenting and growing...which actually is the definition of 'growth'...a steady development toward a greater goal. That seems to indicate improvement...which implies we improve from something! We both agree God is needed for this process. In fact, it seems we agree on most of it, apart from whether or not we are still capable of sinning...which, to be honest, seems almost moot, since we do 'stumble'!
So I suppose my question is this....my reading of these texts...that we are freed from sin(...as in, released from it's power, rather than we now cannot sin at all...sin free), fits in with both Jas 3:1-2 and 1John 1:8; 3:6. All the different verses harmonize for me, leading to a life that is full of repentance and growth...all to the glory of God. For me, how you want to propose understanding this, is full of contradiction for me. I need to believe something that isn't true...that I have ceased to sin. I need to believe that the bible can say two different things...and somehow believe that to be okay based only on the idea that one chapter in one letter was somehow written to someone else. Do you see the difficulty I'm having? I'm quite happy for you to try and quell some of these problems...but at the moment, I can't dismiss them!

Hi Rach,

I can understand your difficulty in understanding where I'm coming from. I too had difficulty when first introduced to this.
The doctrine that Christians still sin (in spite of the cross) is the mainstream view. Being mainstream doesn't make it right, but it does make it hard to think beyond what we've been indoctrinated with.

As for a new tact like you suggested? The best I can think of for now is study the definitions of sin given in scripture. My first post on this topic covered this.
And remember the wages of sin is death. And as Christ has freed us from sin then to go back into sin is to face death again.
Christ's sacrifice was once only, for sin. Hence why Heb 6:1-6 says it's impossible to be renewed to repentance again if we fall away. To do so would be to crucify Christ again and put him to open shame.

Remember Rom 3:25. Only our past sins were forgiven. Now as we're in Christ there is no more sin. Any who do fall away in sin(unbelief, in it's various forms) cannot be renewed to repentance. Their sin remains, and the wages of sin is death.

As you've seen in this debate, scriptures show that Christ truly set us free from sin.

And Stott's commentary trying to deal with the apparent contradiction of 1John 1:8 with 1John 3:6-9 only results in an ambiguous yet condemning doctrine of habitual sin which is not supported by any other scripture. The doctrine that Christians still sin in spite of the cross lacks any scriptural support.

If God sees Christ in us (and in him is no sin, 1John 3:5), then why would we not also see ourselves as God does.
God sees our bodies as dead (Rom 8:10) so we likewise should see our bodies as dead, crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).

Terminology is not an issue for many. Many Christians believe on Jesus whilst incorrectly using "sin" in their terminology describing themselves.
But likewise there are many who follow doctrines of works and condemnation (unbelief) as a result of misusing "sin" terminology.

This is why I have shared scriptures here on this issue.

Why is it so difficult to accept that there is no sin in Chrsit and those who are in Christ don't sin?

It then behooves us to seek the Lord in order to truly enter into Christ according to the truth.....not just claim we are in Christ with the evidence that proves otherwise. In the old days men would fast and pray until they connected up with God. Have we outgrown this necessity in order to immediately claim a "fast food" connection to God that lacks the power that the bible testimonials speak so plainly about? Do we think that the kingdom life has sped up along with our modern lives? Or has our following the worldly way of thinking taken us so far from the truth so that we can no longer relate to it?

Those who believe they do not sin (or are incapable of sin) only fool themselves and look the fool while doing it.

haz said:

Hi Rach,

I can understand your difficulty in understanding where I'm coming from. I too had difficulty when first introduced to this.
The doctrine that Christians still sin (in spite of the cross) is the mainstream view. Being mainstream doesn't make it right, but it does make it hard to think beyond what we've been indoctrinated with.

As for a new tact like you suggested? The best I can think of for now is study the definitions of sin given in scripture. My first post on this topic covered this.
And remember the wages of sin is death. And as Christ has freed us from sin then to go back into sin is to face death again.
Christ's sacrifice was once only, for sin. Hence why Heb 6:1-6 says it's impossible to be renewed to repentance again if we fall away. To do so would be to crucify Christ again and put him to open shame.

Remember Rom 3:25. Only our past sins were forgiven. Now as we're in Christ there is no more sin. Any who do fall away in sin(unbelief, in it's various forms) cannot be renewed to repentance. Their sin remains, and the wages of sin is death.

As you've seen in this debate, scriptures show that Christ truly set us free from sin.

And Stott's commentary trying to deal with the apparent contradiction of 1John 1:8 with 1John 3:6-9 only results in an ambiguous yet condemning doctrine of habitual sin which is not supported by any other scripture. The doctrine that Christians still sin in spite of the cross lacks any scriptural support.

If God sees Christ in us (and in him is no sin, 1John 3:5), then why would we not also see ourselves as God does.
God sees our bodies as dead (Rom 8:10) so we likewise should see our bodies as dead, crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).

Terminology is not an issue for many. Many Christians believe on Jesus whilst incorrectly using "sin" in their terminology describing themselves.
But likewise there are many who follow doctrines of works and condemnation (unbelief) as a result of misusing "sin" terminology.

This is why I have shared scriptures here on this issue.

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Hey Haz. I'll think about what you've said...but at this point I see too many contradictions...not only life application ones, but also biblical ones. I don't feel you've addressed the one in 1 John that satisfies these contradictions.
As I've said previously...I too believe Christ has set us free from sin...I just believe that this doesn't make us perfect....it comes down to a pure matter of do we/or don't we? Like James 3:1-2 says " For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man..."
We are not perfect, you agree to this...if we are not perfect, ipso facto, we are sinners. Saved sinners, completely forgiven sinners, redeemed sinners...but sinner no less.
I will continue to read up on the subject and see what it leads me to...but I cannot look away from what scripture teaches...and until the Holy Spirit leads me to understand it differently, it plainly tells us that all of a Christian's life is one of repentance...

biggandyy said:

Those who believe they do not sin (or are incapable of sin) only fool themselves and look the fool while doing it.

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Hi biggandyy,

If I look like a fool for sharing on how Christ crucified set us free from sin (John 8:36, Rom 6:7, Rom 6:18, 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9, 1John 5:18) I'm ok with that.

Sorry, but I couldn't help myself in quoting these scriptures in reply,

1Cor 1:23
"but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness",

1Cor 2:12-14
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[sup] [/sup]Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You misread scripture, we are set free from the ultimate end of sin, but the path of sanctification where we have the stain of sin completely removed is not instantaneous. Our justification is, our sanctification is not.

And you also misread the quotes about foolishness as well. The frist is in reference to the crucifixion, the second about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit... neither of which has to do with sin and our sin nature.

Please try to read more carefully in the future.

biggandyy said:

You misread scripture, we are set free from the ultimate end of sin, but the path of sanctification where we have the stain of sin completely removed is not instantaneous. Our justification is, our sanctification is not.

And you also misread the quotes about foolishness as well. The frist is in reference to the crucifixion, the second about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit... neither of which has to do with sin and our sin nature.

Please try to read more carefully in the future.

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Hi bigandyy,

Sorry, but scripture says "freed from sin", "ceased from sin", "cannot sin". Your disagreement is with God's word and not me.

And being freed from sin has everything to do with Christ being crucified, as Christians are crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).
Consider 1Pet 4:1
"since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (Rom 6:6 our old man crucified with him), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin"


Also, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit gives us the understanding of scripture. To the natural man it is foolishness.

The quotes were relevant.

They were quite irrelevant with regards to sin. But alas, I fear I am casting pearls before swine.

biggandyy said:

Those who believe they do not sin (or are incapable of sin) only fool themselves and look the fool while doing it.

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Is this from "human wisdom 101"??? Or from the bible?

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

biggandyy said:

You misread scripture, we are set free from the ultimate end of sin, but the path of sanctification where we have the stain of sin completely removed is not instantaneous. Our justification is, our sanctification is not.

And you also misread the quotes about foolishness as well. The frist is in reference to the crucifixion, the second about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit... neither of which has to do with sin and our sin nature.

Please try to read more carefully in the future.

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This is false. It is God who sanctifies us...through the blood of Christ. We are then preserved that way through abiding in Christ.

Jud_1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Heb_10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

No, it's a plain and simple reading of 1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us."


----------You know I'm right.

biggandyy said:

No, it's a plain and simple reading of 1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us."


----------You know I'm right.

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Your interpretation of that one verse goes against the rest of the gospel. You actually don't realize how wrong you are. John wrote his epistle to correct the gnostic heresy that didn't take responsibility for sins committed in a carnal body. In other words, the gnostics disassociated themselves from any responsibility for sin...much like people do nowadays. So John says we ARE sinners...that is until we come to Christ...the very thing that John is exhorting people to do in order that they can have true fellowship with God just as they did.

When we actually abide in Christ THEN we walk without sin...and not before.

How is it you do not take God at His Word? 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Are you born of God? John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If whether I am a sinner (unrighteous) or I am righteous, has ANYTHING to do with my works (my deeds in the flesh), then what Jesus did on the cross is useless. No no no, it is as simple as taking God at His Word. Believe! Brothers/Sisters, you can no longer call yourself a sinner, if indeed you abide in Christ. (1 John 3:5-6) Do you abide in Him? Yes? Then you cannot call yourself a sinner. You are not a sinner. God said it.

(Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This is offensive! This is the offense of the Gospel! The gospel is offensive because we claim righteousness (through Christ), when we, ourselves, are so clearly unworthy of it. (Gal 5:11) People look at us, as we claim to be righteous and in good standing with God, and they look at all our faults and every little way we fall short, and it is offensive to them. They think we are being hypocritical and self-righteous to claim to be righteous and at the same time show so many faults. They think we are blaspheming! But we are not self-righteous! We are Christ-righteous! Praise God!

Our status, as sinners or righteous, has absolutely nothing to do with our deeds. The only thing that matters is that we BELIEVE Jesus has accomplished what He said He has. IF we BELIEVE, we will walk in LOVE. Jesus' commandments to us are to 1. BELIEVE 2. WALK IN LOVE.(1 John 3:23) If we BELIEVE we will walk in LOVE. Walking in LOVE is evidence of our BELIEF. Also, love is the fulfillment of the Law. Love does no wrong to its neighbor.

This has nothing to do with claiming to be perfect. No one is perfect in the flesh, except our Lord. We can stumble in the flesh, however God tells us not to walk according to the flesh.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:16-17)

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom 7:25)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Rom 8:13)


When we stumble in the flesh, it is not imputed to us as sin. The only way we can sin is if we do not believe in Jesus. That said, God tells us NOT to walk according to the flesh. We are to walk according to the Spirit:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Gal 5:16)

So how do we know if we are walking according to the Spirit or according to the flesh? By the fruits:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Gal 5:19-21)


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Gal 5:22-26)


This is the Gospel! And what Good NEWS it is!!

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.