And once again: the law changed? Which law? Law of God? Even as the priesthood established by that law given from the mount?
What is Legalism?
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I agree. True spirituality is action in deed and in truth:
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Spirituality without works in the Spirit is as dead as faith without the works of faith.
Being spiritually minded is proven by walking after the Spirit, even as carnally minded by walking after the flesh.
Spirituality separated from works is a spirit separated from the body: dead.
Likewise, a 'spiritual Israel' being the church of Christ is figment of imagination without Scripture: the body of Christ is the natural bodies of all His believers. There will be His spiritual body with the resurrection thereof in His likeness:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
But to say that His body is only spiritual, or only spiritually on earth, is to say Christ came in spirit only, and not in the flesh as a man born of a woman. That heresy probably came from misreading:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
I.e. Jesus was only a quickening spirit inhabiting a body prepared for Him in shape like a man, even as the angels of the Lord of old. Or even as the pagan gods would do from time to time to enforce their will personally on earth.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Legalism is trying to be justified by the Law, meanings one's efforts to keep the Law. If we could be justified by works, then Christ would have not had to die for our sins. He would have just come to expand the law to the world to try to keep. But everyone in history failed to keep the Law except Christ.
Legalism existed right from the start with the Judaisers. It has seeped into the Church. Catholics believe in a salvation by faith + works. Some Protestant churches are legalistic.
I think the problem is just a misinterpretation
of what God requires of us and what actually saves us. He requires obedience to His commandments because the LAW IS SPIRITUAL AND PERFECT; only we are not saved by these efforts/works. We don't do them to attain salvation. We do them because it is what righteousness is. It is Jesus character, and we are to follow Him, His ways.
So the keeping of the Law was a schoolmaster that taught us about sin and led us to Christ. The Law was and is still spiritual that remains in place. And all of it falls under loving God and loving our neighbor.
So we are compelled to do good works that God has prepared for us to do, and that is not legalism unless you believe you are saved by those works. It's perspective, you have to compartmentalize these things, put them in order. No one can boast, because we are saved by grace through faith. It is a gift, not by works.
So it's all just about understanding that we are justified by faith, not by works - but faith leads to good works - they are expected of us.
Try with all your might to obey His commandments, just don't think that what your doing is saving you. It is what Christ did on the Cross and His resurrection that saves.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The all inclusive is legalism cloaked under the word Love .
For it teaches that all paths lead to God . That if one has good works and an appearance of this love so called
then they are saved and know God . BUT the last time i checked , GOOD WORKS AINT WHAT SAVED a soul .
IT WAS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE . SO why in the name of any false love
would anyone now begin to say otherwise . CLING TO CHRIST and THOSE BIBLES my dear friends .
And let all that has breath praise the glorious and magnificent Lord .
For it teaches that all paths lead to God . That if one has good works and an appearance of this love so called
then they are saved and know God . BUT the last time i checked , GOOD WORKS AINT WHAT SAVED a soul .
IT WAS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE . SO why in the name of any false love
would anyone now begin to say otherwise . CLING TO CHRIST and THOSE BIBLES my dear friends .
And let all that has breath praise the glorious and magnificent Lord .
Supposedly their were Levites in the New Testament era but none in authoritative power....which is another topic.
So long as it is Scripture topic, it is fine with me.
The Levites were still practicing their old priesthood, even as they were still reading Moses of old for a done away covenant:
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
They were still attending an altar (1 Cor 10), that God had cast away from Himself, permanently this time with the cross. They were also continuing to receive their tithe (Heb 7) by a law no longer of God: that of Moses.
Paul spoke of the first covenant, that God had made old, as decaying and being ready to vanish away. The unbelieving people and priesthood of that old Covenant did not yet know it, because they would not know the Lord, and so they were carrying around a law and a covenant made after a carnal commandment like a decaying corpse. They were still trying to worship in a covenant with God that was vanishing away as a vapor of smoke.
Unbelieving Israel after the flesh did not, and still refuse to know, that the old covenant they had with God before the cross is dead and gone. And just because they like to still call themselves Israel and Jew, that doesn't mean they are in sight of God, especially when Jesus calls them liars for doing so. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)
God now identifies two separate 'Israels' in the Scriptures of the New Testament, which are far better for proof of all prophecy in Scripture, since they fulfill the prophecies of old, even as the Redeemer out of Sion came to do, as well as to confirm the promises made therein to the fathers.
There is now by Word of God an Israel after the flesh and the Israel of God, and they are not one and the same, and are as separate as Isaac that was born after the Spirit, and Ishmael born after the flesh, as the carnal mind is from the spiritual mind, having the same enmity against God and persecution of the seed of promise. (Rom 8) (Gal 4)
And so, Israel after the flesh is in name only, and the Israel of God that is blessed and true are all they grafted into His holy olive tree, which is seen in natural bodies born of the seed of God, counted as the seed of Abraham through faith of Abraham and of God: the faith of Jesus.
Up to this point, I was all on board:
So it's all just about understanding that we are justified by faith, not by works - but faith leads to good works - they are expected of us.
Because your words are in direct contradiction with Scripture, even though the spirit of your argument is more true than not.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
And so as with Abraham our father of faith we are likewise justified by works: the works of the faith, not the works of our own righteousness without faith of God.
Outward works without faith are lights around an empty shell, like stars around a black hole. Wandering stars in the blackness of darkness. (Jude 13) All such works performed legally according to the law of Christ written on paper, without being written in heart, are empty and vain and useless to save and justify with God: the filthy rags of men's righteousnesses. Righteous deeds on paper, but not righteousness of God in heart. The letter performed, but not of the Spirit born.
We are neither saved nor justified by works alone, and Scripture never says we are.
'Works' are anathema to them that believe in a salvation by grace through faith only, which is a faith that is alone without works: an idealized unconditional salvation by a grace bestowed upon a dead faith.
Paul never said we are saved and justified by faith alone, which would then indeed be a contradiction with James.
We are both saved and justified freely by grace (Rom 3:24), so that we cannot boast, as we do the good works of salvation and justification through faith, that first and always accompanies salvation and the justification, that is by faithful works under grace.
We are both saved and justified by grace through faith with works of faith, which begins with repentance from sins and dead works.
There is no salvation nor conversion without repentance, because we are commanded to repent and be converted and have our sins blotted out by God (Acts 3): No repentance, no conversion, no forgiveness of sins.
And there is no such thing in Scripture as 'inward' or 'spiritual' repentance apart from that of dead works and practise of sins: that would be a repentance of the sin nature, of being a sinner.
We cannot possibly repent of being born of sinful flesh, because repentance is to make a change: we can change our minds about something in particular. Good sinners can change their minds about stealing something they intended to, but we certainly cannot change our carnal-mindedness to that of spiritual, our sin nature to divine.
We cannot change ourselves from sinner to saint inwardly, which only God can do by grace through the blood of Jesus, but we certainly can and are commanded to change our outward lives and deeds of the body, from that of sin and trespasses to that of righteousness and true holiness, as befitting called saints of God.
God does the inward work by grace through faith, we do the outward work by grace through faith. There is neither without the other. Ever.
but faith leads to good works -
If anything 'leads to' the other, it is not salvation by a faith that 'leads' to good works, but it is a repentance from dead works that leads to conversion and salvation. But, of course, neither is the case: the things that accompany with salvation are the things that accompany with repentance and faith: they all accompany each other at the same time, and neither is of any affect without the other.
Scripture does not say that there is faith with works following, but rather there is faith that is dead, being alone, with no works accompanying.
Unconditional eternally secured salvation and justification apart from any works and law of God is a mystical contract of them that have pride in their grace: pride in their own power and ability to repent of their own nature: to make themselves spiritually and inwardly saints, so that God must agree to accept and never reject. Why? well, because Grace is God, and grace is unconditional.
God is love, but grace is not God, nor is grace the power of God to save. God saves by grace with His own power in the blood of the Lamb of God.
Salvation and justification are no more separate from works of faith and the law of God, than grace is a separate power of God to save unconditionally and forever with neither works of faith nor obedience to law of God.
Grace is the shining of the Sun of righteousness, but there is no increase nor salvation of God by the shining only. The power of God is the Son of God to save through faith: the grace of God is a shining any and all on earth can see, if they would only repent and believe.
There is no believing God only, without repentance from dead works at enmity with God.
Without repentance and works of faith, faith is dead, and though the Sun keeps shining with grace for all, there is no salvation nor justification in sight of God.
they are expected of us.
No, they are not just expected, nor even just commanded: they are with us, or we are not with God. No works with our faith, no salvation by our faith.
Works of faith are the necessary accompaniment to salvation as singing is to the song of the Lamb. No singing heard, no song had.
If the Light and the Song are in the heart, then that Light is seen and that Song is heard on a hill. No seeing, no singing, no Light, no Song in heart: no salvation without the things that come with salvation: the works of faith.
We prove our faith by our works, both to ourselves and especially to God:
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen 22)
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
The Scripture was not fulfilled that Abraham was called the friend of God, until he did the work of faith, neither was the righteousness of God imputed to him by believing God, made righteousness and justified, until he did the work he believed God commanded him to do.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Change... As far as Judaism...as far as the priesthood? It was being driven by events between the testament periods and then again by the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad. There is a lot of history there and Jews were riding a storm.
The Jews were conquered by the Babylonians -- king Nebuchadnezzar II in 586 bc. They were deported out of their home land...diaspora. Most of the men were either enslaved or killed and women were taken and as the custom of the time period was they were breed in an attempt to breed the Jews out of existence. And this is story of the 10 lost tribes.
Then the Babylonians were conquered by the Persians in In 539 B.C. and the Jews found themselves under a more friendly rule. This occurs in the Bible. The Persians helped them build the Temple and recover some of their gold. But then Alexander the Great conquers the Persians in 331 B.C. and this rule is less friendly. Shortly after this the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible begins in Alexandra Egypt ... Septuagint.
As time goes on the Romans were forming and the Greeks were defeated in 146 B.C. and this story has it complexities. But either way the Jews are along for the ride and it is rough. This is part that you have to study to understand what is going on with the Jews in the days of Christ ministry and the Apostles. After the Persians the Jews were in revolt and there were several, uprisings, the most well known being the Maccabean Revolt which resulted in the Hasmonean dynasty. This is where the meat of the information is that leads up to the New Testament account. It is a long story and ultimately ends up with the Jewish governing bodies both political and religious being under the control of Rome.
During all this the Jews are trying to reorganize and reestablish their processes....this is the area to study for changes in Judaism and the priesthood. And all through this the Mosaic Law becomes difficult to observe so there are reinterpretations of how to observe...obey the Mosaic Law. And this is where all the disagreements came from...between the Priests, the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essenes. The written Mosaic Laws are static in the Hebrew Bible...it is the interpretations that was changing and was in disagreement. This continues through the Biblical era and through history and today.
Then on the issue of Christ's Laws.... Well to call it Christ's Law is more or less a misnomer. Christ's teachings are not a written body of Laws like the Mosaic Law. What Christ and the Apostles taught is not a set of Laws per say. It is more of a matter of the mind and heart...away of thinking that governs your actions. And in motion...action...execution, it is, like it or not, a religious philosophy. This philosophy is based on a higher set of morals that are governed by character and love. Love for God and love for our fellow man.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I agree with this, if, as it was for the Galatians, an attempt in doing so to gain salvation. But if your relationship with Christ is such that by His grace He creates in you a heart disposed to love for God and for man, the requirements and obligations of the law are then fully and completely met... Love is the fulfilling of the law. But this concept isn't new. It was how the law was kept by the righteous in the OT as well. They had a genuine relationship with Christ, they loved Him deeply and they loved their neighbor... This love came by faith, it came through being aquainted with the Author of love, and this love moved in and through them enabling Abraham, Enoch, Elisha, Elijah, and numerous others listed in Hebrews 11, who by faith took hold of God's righteousness and lived in obedience to God's Commandments. Sure, they slipped up at times, but whenever they fell, they got up again. David for example was a man after God's own heart, despite adultery and murder.
Could I sum all this up by saying that what Israel lacked throughout history was faith. They constantly reverted to false gods because they didn't believe what the true God said or had done for them and attributed the miracles to themselves or another, and what Jesus brought to the table was a much more stark Revelation of the true God which Israel missed... One of self sacrificial love... One Who could be trusted... And thus faith, which was always the basis for relational covenant faithfulness, was brought far more intimately into the experience of the believer through Calvary, and the promise of His presence throughout all the ages, with His indwelling Spirit empowering the believer obey and love according to the character Christ demonstrated throughout His life.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
If it makes you feel good...go for it. My religion is not based on fantasy or make believe.
Oh that is great! The Law is by faith! Those guys that had five wives and sold their daughters in sexual slavery, now that is charter and good example of the love of God! I am sure Christ would have approved....right?
David for example was a man after God's own heart, despite adultery and murder. This one I really like! Are you sure you are not talking about Charles Manson?
These guys you listed here were before the Mosaic Law....
Faith is a topic...The Old Testament is a lot larger than the New Testament. Count up the number of times the word faith appears in the Old Testament.. faith in God. Then compare that to the smaller New Testament. 20 to 1. Now look at the number of times God says in the Old Testament to have faith in Him. Faith drives the Christian religion. Faith is part of the salvation process. There is no salvation in the Old Testament.... Christ pointed out the power of faith....No one in the Old Testament is pointing out the power of faith in the Old Testament.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
We are justified by faith alone!
You are really a faith + works warrior. You seem to be on a mission to convince every one thay their salvation is not secure unless they do works as well. You are certainly spending a lot of time.
You are the one wrestling with the true doctrine of salvation.
"But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Rom. 3:23-27
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8, 9
Justification by faith separates Christianity from all other religions; however in some branches of what is called “Christianity,” man works his way to God.
In true Christianity, man is saved as a result of grace through faith.
Romans 5:1;
Galatians 3:2, 11
Titus 3:5
We are declared righteous and freed from the guilt of sin.
Sanctification, is an ongoing process of growth by which we become more Christlike (doing good deeds, which are expected if us)
1 Thes.5:23.
Thus justification motivates good works and begins sanctification, spiritual growth.
Since justification is a finished work of God, we can feel secure in our salvation, it is a done deal.
God sees us as righteous, purely cleansed.
Nothing else is needed to enter into heaven.
Rom. 3:28 states our own works are disqualified as a means to salvation
Galatians 1:6–7 states that if you teach a false gospel, you will be accursed.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
This is a rather interesting response .
SO i have another saying . NEITHER ARE THE NATURAL JEWS a TRUE JEW .
FOR HE is not a jew which is one OUTWARDLY in the flesh . BUT ONE IS WHO INWARDLY . AKA BORN AGAIN .
Yep the natural jews are not even the children of GOD , as paul said , BOTH THINGS .
Yeah , i quoated from paul . Thus it must be truth . RIGHT .
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
???
Ya go with that.... I am a Christian.
It is ambiguous at best. I am not of the Jewish religion and my DNA will show that I am not of that race.
It sounds like you have a lot of confusion in your religious beliefs. That is why you talk in circles because it is running around in your head in circles.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I am a christian as well . I was talking about a true jew verses an unbelieving jew .
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
That is OK. Define true Jew and unbelieving Jew.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
A true jew is one that was born a jew according to the flesh , but became a follower of Christ . Thus becoming
truly a jew .
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Salutations Amigo but I disagree. A Jew that believes in Christ is a Christian.
It alludes to an interesting topic. Two of the Apostles that wrote the Gospels, were not Jews or it cannot be confirmed.
The twelve chosen Apostles were Jewish. These Apostles made up the ministry of the Jewish-Christians. Some of them practiced what you see on the forum here....a mixing of Judaism and Christianity. Well this caused issues and a division when the Pagans started to convert to Christianity. You can read about this in acts. Christ warned against mixing these two religions when He was discussing Christianity not being a new patch on an old garment and the analogy of new wine expanding in old wine skins...in both analogies He warned that it would ruin both.... Mark 2:21-22 The Pagans that converted to Christianity took the helm of the church very early on, and they had no connections to Judaism and that is one of the reasons they survived.
The Jews considered Christianity as a offshoot of Judaism. The Jewish Christians saw themselves as center of Christianity. James being the leader felt he was giving concessions to Paul to allow the converting Pagans into Christianity. James felt that the Jewish-Christians would be the leaders, but this mind set lead to their demise. By the end of the first century there were hardly any Jewish-Christians left. That is why you will not find many early Christian writings from Jewish-Christians and Jewish-Christians were not represented at the ecumenical councils.
Now if the Jewish-Christians had had a better relationship with the Gentile-Christians there is a chance they would have survived. The reason for this is that the Roman attack on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was an attack on Jews....but they did not see much of a difference between Jews and Jewish-Christians. The division between the Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians caused other issues, for instance the Gentile-Christians eventually came to blame the Jews and Jewish-Christians for the crucifixion of Christ...in time this caused hostilities between the Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians. And if you look at history, particularly during the witch-hunts and inquisitions the Jews were treated like witches by the Christians.
And back to my original point....Christians are Christians...it does not matter if they were Jewish...Hindu...Budist...Moslem...etc...it is just better to look at Christians as Christians...the other has caused to much problems in the past. Then again the customs and laws of Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism or Moslems, have no part of Christianity. Attempting to mix them only causes confusion.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
But the man made customs and laws of the gentile church patterned after pagan festivals designed to draw the masses into the church do, right? Some things never change, lol.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
The reason you don’t see Jewish Christians at the end of the first century is because they are the first redeemed of men…. The first fruits
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