should christians be members of a political party

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should christians be members of a political party

  • yes, why

    Votes: 15 60.0%
  • no, why

    Votes: 10 40.0%
  • yes, if it is a christian party, why

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • maybe, why

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • don't know, need to think on it, why

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Buzzfruit

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-- What would be the goal of a Christian voting in the American electoral process? You truly can't see the benefit of this?
Using their vote to influence who is in charge of the country or the laws that govern us?

You truly don't see how participation can help preserve Christian freedoms and sitting on the sidelines can hurt it?

Talk about being part of the problem.

You see I know that my freedom comes from God. I also know that in this life God never promise us that life is going to be easy. The Bible tells us that it is God who set up leaders and Nations and that He put the least or lowest of men in power and not the best.





-- Unfortunately, you miss the fact that we are called to pray for our governmental leaders here on earth:

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." - 1 Timothy 2:1-42:1



"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

-- Not exercising your right to vote as a citizen of the United States, let alone as a Christian is the textbook definition of "do nothing."




.

That is fine and good but one cannot expect that this will always be the case. As we speak events are taking us that will lead the world into a system as describe in Revelation 13. Bible prophecies must be fulfilled and scriptures tells us that Christians will be persecuted.....even Jesus said it. So to believe that what Paul wrote specifically to Timothy in his time is for all time is really silly. No amount of human effort is going to prevent evil from happening, if God's word say a thing is going to happen. And I am not under any obligation to support a system that is not of God. I don't need to vote in order to do good.
 

HammerStone

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I don't see why not.

Buzzfruit, I understand your argument on one hand. However, instead of saying don't get involved, my argument would be more along the lines of cautiously get involved.

I think you bring up a very important point. God sits on the throne regardless of leader. We all do better keeping that at heart. However, I take "render unto Caesar" (Matthew 22:21) in more than one way. I think we set an example when we respectfully participate in the civil realm. Ultimately, Christians benefit with the freedom to preach, teach, and live our lives for Christ. Christianity will certainly always thrive regardless of government, but I fail to see where working towards this is a negative. We are, at the very least, called to pray for leaders as 1 Timothy 2:1-42:1 says, cited above. Ideally, you want a faithful and true leader in office.

Man's government will fail because man fails, but I don't see a call to abandon hope.

As to who to support; God supported David as an example. He was a liar and adulterer. I don't think we have to look for the perfectly spotless candidate. At the same time, we shouldn't get caught up in a personality cult either. We have a Savior.

The problem for me is when it becomes hate over substance. Our faith should permeate everything we do. We are always representatives of Christ.

The government previously promised is undoubtedly coming to the detriment of Christianity, but Jesus will triumph. I just don't see being resigned to it.
 

Prentis

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When we try to change the governments of this world in the physical, we just get a different flavor of the same thing. Praying is good...

Voting? It's just picking your flavor of corruption. Each has it's 'good' and it's 'bad'.

To truly change a city or a country, one must wrestle with powers and principalities who shape the country.

The Kingdom is not communist... Some do receive more than others. The Kingdom is not capitalist.... Everything is shared as we love. The Kingdom is not democratic... It has a King who rules above all. Yet it is not hierarchic as the world is; no earthly king rules over the kingdom of heaven. Only the King according to the Father rules, and all other kings are under him and like him, as in that they are lowly and meek on this earth.

What have we to do with the things of this world? We are to establish another Kingdom. Not try and make this one into the kingdom of God. We have lost the radical message of Jesus that says 'I have not home on this earth'... That says, 'let the dead burry the dead, you, follow me!' Christianity is not a combination of biblical morals and worldly means. It's a combination of life in the Spirit and death to the flesh. It is completely radical and counter cultural... Because it has nothing to do with culture!
 

Buzzfruit

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I don't see why not.

Buzzfruit, I understand your argument on one hand. However, instead of saying don't get involved, my argument would be more along the lines of cautiously get involved.

That is like saying I am going to cautiously get involved in sin. The fact that the governments of this world is not of God should be enough for any Christian to understand what they are dealing with. Trying to work with Satan's system to make it more just is like trying to fight the wind......the gains one might make today will be taken away tomorrow.

I think you bring up a very important point. God sits on the throne regardless of leader. We all do better keeping that at heart. However, I take "render unto Caesar" (Matthew 22:21) in more than one way. I think we set an example when we respectfully participate in the civil realm. Ultimately, Christians benefit with the freedom to preach, teach, and live our lives for Christ. Christianity will certainly always thrive regardless of government, but I fail to see where working towards this is a negative. We are, at the very least, called to pray for leaders as 1 Timothy 2:1-42:1 says, cited above. Ideally, you want a faithful and true leader in office.


Your taking what Jesus said beyond what He intended and He also said that one cannot serve two masters........you cannot be a part of man's Satan inspired system and be a part of God's. Because they day will come when you will have to chose whom you will be true to. I don't have to partisipate in politics to secure the limited freedom at best that one can possibly have in this world.....I have direct acess to God's throne of grace.


Man's government will fail because man fails, but I don't see a call to abandon hope.

That will all depends on what and whom you are putting you hope in. If it is in the system of this world then you would be like the man that build his house on the sand.

As to who to support; God supported David as an example. He was a liar and adulterer. I don't think we have to look for the perfectly spotless candidate. At the same time, we shouldn't get caught up in a personality cult either. We have a Savior..

I would not label David a liar and an adulterer.......a single act or sin does not define a person. God defined David best.......He said, David was a man after His own heart. God supported David because when he said and is confronted he does not make excuses for it as Saul did. The system that Israel had was set up by God......He was there real King and Leader.


The problem for me is when it becomes hate over substance. Our faith should permeate everything we do. We are always representatives of Christ.

The government previously promised is undoubtedly coming to the detriment of Christianity, but Jesus will triumph. I just don't see being resigned to it.


One of the problems with this system is that you don't know if the person in the government or running for office is actually being truthful. They say one thing but behind closed doors do something different......the vast majority if not all have been bought and paid for.......they only come to the people for their support to give the impression that they are for the people.
 

Prentis

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I'm with you on this, buzzfruit.

1 Samuel 8 [sup]1[/sup] Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. [sup]2[/sup] The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. [sup]3[/sup] But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.
[sup]4[/sup] Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, [sup]5[/sup] and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
[sup]6[/sup] But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD. [sup]7[/sup] And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.

David is not a good example to back this up. The fact God used something doesn't mean he condones it. God is our King, Christ is our King.

Israel was never meant to have a king (other than God, and his reign is different from men), and so we are never meant to have a king, other then Christ. We have a right measure of Respect for this worlds authority; we are not some sort of rebels looking to take their power and use it the way we think is right. Rather we bring another power in the equation. We don't walk according to money. We don't walk according to hierarchy. We walk according to God's ways. Only the church itself has compromised with the powers of this world. It has tried to serve God and Mammon, and so God it has hated (as we see by it's prophets) and mammon it has loved.

Let us not fall into the same trap the Israelites did. Let us not repeat past mistakes.
 

HammerStone

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That is like saying I am going to cautiously get involved in sin. The fact that the governments of this world is not of God should be enough for any Christian to understand what they are dealing with. Trying to work with Satan's system to make it more just is like trying to fight the wind......the gains one might make today will be taken away tomorrow.

I just want to see how far this goes. Do I sin when I use media (internet, computers, news, etc)? My reason for the association question is it's much like saying because the internet is used to purvey porn, child molester websites, etc. then it's a sin to use the internet. Baby and bath water.

I just fail to see where government equates to automatic sin anywhere in the Bible, much less with passages abounding in Proverbs where counsel is given to rulers and leaders.

Romans 13:3-6
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.

That will all depends on what and whom you are putting you hope in. If it is in the system of this world then you would be like the man that build his house on the sand.

Well, ideally it's exactly what I said - ultimately it's in God. Unfortunately that point seemingly was missed, so I will make it clear here. Christians can participate in political parties if they focus on God first and foremost just as much as Christians can participate in other events of the world if God remains first and foremost. Christians are not just to completely withdraw from the political realm.

I would not label David a liar and an adulterer.......a single act or sin does not define a person. God defined David best.......He said, David was a man after His own heart. God supported David because when he said and is confronted he does not make excuses for it as Saul did. The system that Israel had was set up by God......He was there real King and Leader.


With all due respect, I'm not sure how you define many words in the English language then. The fact that you are posting here makes you a poster. David moved a man to the front of the battle to get him killed, the Word of God states that factually and the description in Matthew 5 backs up the intent of the heart.

All this takes us in the wrong direction from my point, anyway. Simply restated: God used an imperfect man, David - who we will all agreed committed the act of adultery at the very least - to rule his people. Yet God made the statement that this imperfect man was a man after his own heart. If we participate in a convention of this world as God-fearing and mindful Christians, you're completely losing me in the argument that it's sin. I don't think I'm alone in that notion.

One of the problems with this system is that you don't know if the person in the government or running for office is actually being truthful. They say one thing but behind closed doors do something different......the vast majority if not all have been bought and paid for.......they only come to the people for their support to give the impression that they are for the people.

Thus why our ultimate faith and hope is God.
 

aspen

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I vote my ideals without expectations. And I trust in Christ.
 

Buzzfruit

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I just want to see how far this goes. Do I sin when I use media (internet, computers, news, etc)? My reason for the association question is it's much like saying because the internet is used to purvey porn, child molester websites, etc. then it's a sin to use the internet. Baby and bath water.

I just fail to see where government equates to automatic sin anywhere in the Bible, much less with passages abounding in Proverbs where counsel is given to rulers and leaders.

The fact is, no one controles the internet it is not like a government. You are free to use it for good or for bad. With the government you are trusting that the person you vote for is not a crook, a rasist or will not commit war crime in your name.

Romans 13:3-6
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.

This has nothing to do with what I am talking about........I don't fear the government. I simply have no trust or confidence in what they tell me......I know enough to know not to trust there words. As the scripture said about Jesus when some believed in Him.....He never commited Himslelf to them because He know what was in man. As Chiristians we are not be ignorant or nieve about man's nature......we are not be gullable......but too many are.



Well, ideally it's exactly what I said - ultimately it's in God. Unfortunately that point seemingly was missed, so I will make it clear here. Christians can participate in political parties if they focus on God first and foremost just as much as Christians can participate in other events of the world if God remains first and foremost. Christians are not just to completely withdraw from the political realm.

And the thing with that is He has told us that man's system will and has failed.



With all due respect, I'm not sure how you define many words in the English language then. The fact that you are posting here makes you a poster. David moved a man to the front of the battle to get him killed, the Word of God states that factually and the description in Matthew 5 backs up the intent of the heart.



All this takes us in the wrong direction from my point, anyway. Simply restated: God used an imperfect man, David - who we will all agreed committed the act of adultery at the very least - to rule his people. Yet God made the statement that this imperfect man was a man after his own heart. If we participate in a convention of this world as God-fearing and mindful Christians, you're completely losing me in the argument that it's sin. I don't think I'm alone in that notion.

What David did he did once.......it was not something that he was constantly doing. It is what one does as a matter of habbit that difines a person not something that he or she did one time in their life.


Thus why our ultimate faith and hope is God.

Which is why I don't look to politicans or the system for something that it cannot provide.
 

brionne

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my vote is no ( and no i dont vote in elections at all )

The reason is that Gods Kingdom is a real government and I view it that way. Gods government has laws and agendas just like any earthly government....but Gods government takes priority.

I have made my vote for Jesus, he is my King and the only one who is suitable to rule mankind. No human is going to do a better job of running a country then Jesus.
and besides that, Gods Kingdom will soon be the only kingdom as prophesied by Daniel:

Daniel 2:44


“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
If we live like we are members of Gods government right now, then the transition will be easy, but if we put our hope in the governments of man....we will come to disappointment and may miss the wonderful blessings that we will see when God takes over the rulership of mankind. Every Christian should give their allegiance to Gods Kingdom if they want to be subjects of it.
 

Prentis

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my vote is no ( and no i dont vote in elections at all )

The reason is that Gods Kingdom is a real government and I view it that way. Gods government has laws and agendas just like any earthly government....but Gods government takes priority.

I have made my vote for Jesus, he is my King and the only one who is suitable to rule mankind. No human is going to do a better job of running a country then Jesus.
and besides that, Gods Kingdom will soon be the only kingdom as prophesied by Daniel:

Daniel 2:44


“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
If we live like we are members of Gods government right now, then the transition will be easy, but if we put our hope in the governments of man....we will come to disappointment and may miss the wonderful blessings that we will see when God takes over the rulership of mankind. Every Christian should give their allegiance to Gods Kingdom if they want to be subjects of it.

Amen! I think that's wll said Pegg :)

Our kingdom is not of this world, and we don't work for two kingdoms at the same time!
 

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rjp - and I wish I was kidding when I say this - you need to switch to decaf and get out of your parent's basement a little more often.

There is a great big beautiful world out there...

Big beautiful world out there? Where are you- in grade school? Are you an adult or still looking forward to your first shave?

My parents are dead, my house does not have a basement, and I am not blind to what is going on in this world.
Are you?

Are you blind or is your head just stuck so far in the sands of never never land that you cannot hear the drumbeat of war?
The cries of the oppressed (HERE in THIS country)?
The evidence of American duplicity and international war crimes?

You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

EIGHT WARS AND COUNTING NOW - and all of them illegal and unjust. How far does this travesty have to go before people will WAKE UP?

The following is a quote.........not my material......

We are increasingly hearing from the Obama administration and some members of Congress that we need to be really concerned about "homegrown terrorists" and "Christian extremists".

For example, during a recent Congressional hearing U.S. Representative Sheila Jackson Lee warned that "Christian militants" might try to "bring down the country" and that such groups need to be investigated.

In addition, according to a shocking document obtained by Oath Keepers, the FBI is now instructing store owners to report many new forms of "suspicious activity" to them. According to the document, "suspicious activity" now includes making "extreme religious statements" and believing in "radical theology".

Not only that, a Department of Homeland Security report* on "right wing extremism" from April 2009 lists the following people as potential terrorists....
-those that believe in "end times" prophecies
-those that believe abortion is wrong
-those that stockpile food, ammunition or weapons
-those that are against same-sex marriage
-those that believe in "New World Order" conspiracy theories

I don't know about you, but when the federal government starts targeting people based on their religious beliefs, that makes me very nervous.
-Michael Snyder - BLN Contributing Writer
(from a column on "conspiracy nuts")
(*) Huffington Post 08/29/11

----------------------------END OF QUOTE-------------------

I did not mean to insult you brother, but only to give you motivation to FOCUS on real, serious issues that threaten our liberty our future and perhaps our very lives. My purpose is to generate awareness, and it looks like you really need it badly.

If American Christians do not wake up and ACT we will very shortly find ourselves imprisoned or silenced by our lack of integrity.

Big beautiful world, indeed.
 

brionne

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the world is really a reflection of the sign of the 'last days'

2 Timothy 3: But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God
We are slowly heading into the 'great tribulation' as prophesied by Jesus, so we should expect things to get much worse:
Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short

the best thing we can do right now is keep far away from the elements of the world which are in opposition to God and his kingdom. The governments of earth are opposed to Gods rulership... why would a christian want to support them in that opposition?
 
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Prentis

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the world is really a reflection of the sign of the 'last days'

2 Timothy 3: But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God
We are slowly heading into the 'great tribulation' as prophesied by Jesus, so we should expect things to get much worse:
Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short

the best thing we can do right now is keep far away from the elements of the world which are in opposition to God and his kingdom. The governments of earth are opposed to Gods rulership... why would a christian want to support them in that opposition?

I agree. To think that, as a church, we can ally ourselves with the government and yet not be corrupted by it is to fool ourselves. :)

Lord bless you Pegg
 

brionne

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I agree. To think that, as a church, we can ally ourselves with the government and yet not be corrupted by it is to fool ourselves. :)

Lord bless you Pegg

Very true Prentis.

We do well to remember Jesus words

'Pay back therefore Caesars things to Caesar, but Gods things to God'

There is a balance to strike... we pay our taxes and obey the laws of the land.... but we dont overstep the commands of God, or our allegiance to God, in order to do so.
 

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Choir Loft
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the best thing we can do right now is keep far away from the elements of the world which are in opposition to God and his kingdom. The governments of earth are opposed to Gods rulership... why would a christian want to support them in that opposition?

Play keep away?

That is NOT the answer, it is the way to destruction and to the wrath of God Himself. Did you not read what the master said to the servant who did nothing with the talents he was given. He was accursed. What he had was taken from him and he was cast into disgrace and punishment.

If KEEP AWAY was the attitude of Jesus Christ, He would never have left the comforts of heaven to live and teach and suffer among us.
Jesus example is PARTICIPATION, not neglect. If you would follow Him, you would rise up and get busy.

Is that what you really want for yourself, your family, your community and yes even your country? KEEP AWAY? Lethargy, darkness and dare I say - cowardice?

DO NOTHING? PLAY KEEP AWAY?

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
-Dietrich Bonhoeffer
 

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Choir Loft
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Very true Prentis.

We do well to remember Jesus words

'Pay back therefore Caesars things to Caesar, but Gods things to God'

There is a balance to strike... we pay our taxes and obey the laws of the land.... but we dont overstep the commands of God, or our allegiance to God, in order to do so.

Allegiance to God is not the same thing as allegiance to the flag - to Caesar.

Our nation is actively participating in torture. Is that God's thing or Caesar's thing?
Our nation is actively participating in the subversion of our liberties by usurption of Constitutional Law. Is that God's thing or Caesar's thing?
Our nation is actively imprisoning aliens & journalists(*) without trial, representation or hope of release at any time.
Is that God's thing or Caesar's thing?

Cursed be he that wresteth the justice due to the sojourner, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Deu 27:19

Our nation is now actively participating in SEVEN illegal and unjust wars (at last count); bombing, killing and destroying property without cause or provocation.
Is that God's thing or Caesar's thing?

Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbor in secret. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Deu 27:24

All of this warmongering and beastly treatment of innocents around the world BY AMERICA - is it God's way or Caesar's way?

Judge for yourselves where your allegiance shall lie.
For the days are soon coming when your will be required to hold to a standard, either that of Christ Jesus or that of the bloody and unjust flag of our modern Caesars.

Judge - brothers and sisters. YOU MUST CHOOSE SIDES. The one is incompatible with the other.
You cannot dance with the devil and expect to dine at table in heaven.

* * * * * * * *
(* footnote from above)

Just when I thought I knew how many wars we were involved in, along comes congressman Bilirakis' revelations about the Mexican thing.
That brings the total now to 7 1/2 or thereabouts.
The half war is that nebulous vacuous thing that dubya Bush called the War on Terror.
"We aren't fighting a religion," he said, "we're fighting evil."

There is no such thing as evil. That which we know and experience as evil has substance, existance and sometimes purpose.
Evil has names, faces, addresses and telephone numbers. (Sometimes it's a selection on a greasy restaurant's menu.)
Evil is something you can point at and accuse. Even religion gives it a name and a home address.

In the world of global politics and modern warfare, evil seems to have escaped the necessity of little more than a transparent label.
If there were substance to it, then we would know the limits of war. Apparently dubya's version of evil has none.

When OBL was killed by Navy seals, that should have provided closure for our foreign adventure in warmongering.
Instead we were treated to "Arab Spring" and now what......Mexican Winter?

These are now the days of what one pundit calls "shadow war". Not covert because everyone knows about them, but not front page news either. In fact news that is not covered by the media at all.

I'd read scathing attacks upon the media by such persons as Gore Vidal who claim that the journalists of today are part of some diabolical scheme to cover the eyes and ears of Americans so that our oligarchs may do as they please. Mr. Vidal may be accurate in part, but one thing I did not guess was the effect military and governmental repressive policies may have upon those journalists who still possess a modicum of integrity. I include here a portion of a column which appeared on CNN's web site on Friday. Since CNN is a respected news provider, I assume that what is written here has some substance of truth behind it. If so, then what does it tell us about the intent of those in leadership positions in America?
------------------------quote begins--------------------------
"In its operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. military has detained journalists without charge for long periods, and failed to adequately investigate our documentation of the killings of 16 journalists by U.S. forces' fire."

"Anti-state charges and "terrorist" labels have become commonplace and are used to unduly intimidate, detain and imprison journalists. Media blackouts and limited access to war and conflict zones have become routine, along with the uninvestigated killings of journalists. To put it starkly, 81 journalists were in jail around the world at the end of 2000. By the end of 2001, that number shot up to 118. Today there are 145, most held on state security charges."

"Ten years on, it's clear that the anti-terror rhetoric and policies developed by the United States after 9/11 have provided effective and enduring cover for the erosion of civil liberties around the world -- including press freedom."
- Joel Simon CNN 09/09/11
-----------------------------------end of quote--------------------------------
Some believe, as I do, that our own government was behind the attacks of 911. Facts and arguments about minute details aside for the moment, what the Bible said about evil men is still true.

For each tree is known by its own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luke 6:44

What then are the fruits of 911? Victory and peace or endless war and the massive erosion of our liberties.
We speak often these days of matters of Constitutional law. Many of us know the document well that did not know it before.

Why?

Do we really fight some nameless evil or have evil men placed their heels upon our necks?
 

Prentis

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May 25, 2011
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Very true Prentis.

We do well to remember Jesus words

'Pay back therefore Caesars things to Caesar, but Gods things to God'

There is a balance to strike... we pay our taxes and obey the laws of the land.... but we dont overstep the commands of God, or our allegiance to God, in order to do so.

Well said, sister.

We respect the government, but when it tries directly to go against the faith, we just remain faithfull to God.

Like Peter and John when they were told to stop preaching, they answered 'We obey God, not me'. They did it in love, and did nothing against the government, but they obeyed God. And then comes persecution...
 

Jake

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People in America, all of western civilization really, have a false sense of security because we live in "free nations", we have forgotten who truly is in control, we have placed our hope in our govt's, our desire to be "free" above all else and we are only as free as God's Will allows us to be free. We are shocked when our gov't takes constitutional rights away, when they declare war, when it's made apparent they are only looking out for the interest groups.

We were already told the spirit of the anti-christ is here, it is in our govt's, in our schools, in society, yet we are still shocked when that spirit does something evil and we call "no fair", of course America's gov't is filled with that spirit! He uses our people in power and He turns it all around to do His Will. Our govt's are permeated by the spirit of the anti-christ!

It's not even about a war, or the constitution being trampled on, or the political parties, it's about the spiritual warfare going on all around us! It's about us being involved in the building up of His Kingdom, not the kingdoms of this world.
 

Prentis

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Yes. We've somehow forgotten that it is the devil, not God, that offers the kingdom of this world to men, as a temptation. :)
 

Buzzfruit

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People in America, all of western civilization really, have a false sense of security because we live in "free nations", we have forgotten who truly is in control, we have placed our hope in our govt's, our desire to be "free" above all else and we are only as free as God's Will allows us to be free. We are shocked when our gov't takes constitutional rights away, when they declare war, when it's made apparent they are only looking out for the interest groups.

We were already told the spirit of the anti-christ is here, it is in our govt's, in our schools, in society, yet we are still shocked when that spirit does something evil and we call "no fair", of course America's gov't is filled with that spirit! He uses our people in power and He turns it all around to do His Will. Our govt's are permeated by the spirit of the anti-christ!

It's not even about a war, or the constitution being trampled on, or the political parties, it's about the spiritual warfare going on all around us! It's about us being involved in the building up of His Kingdom, not the kingdoms of this world.

In truth no one is really free but we are basically comparing ourselves with others not realizing that all people and Nations are in the same boat. The Bible says that creation is in bondage and is waiting for the liberation of the children of God.

Romans 8:19-23 (ASV)
[sup]19 [/sup]For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
[sup]20 [/sup]For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope
[sup]21 [/sup]that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
[sup]22 [/sup]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[sup]23 [/sup]And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

But what this scripture is talking about is way over the head of most Christians way of thinking.