Abomination of Desolation

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michaelvpardo

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I've heard a good amount of preaching on the topic of the abomination of desolation, mentioned by our Savior in the gospels, and from the book of Daniel, and all the doctrine has revolved around a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. I'm not sure that this is at all necessary in the time line of events leading up to the great tribulation. First it's necessary to be clear about what the phrase "abomination of desolation" actually refers to.
The original phrase comes from the book of Daniel:
"And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. Daniel 11:31
The only other time the phrase is used in scripture is when Jesus makes reference to this happening as a sign of the coming judgment:


"Therefore when you see the `abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place'' (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Matthew 24:15-16



The passage from Leviticus that the Spirit of God illuminated to me was:
"You shall burn the carved images of their gods with fire; you shall not covet the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, lest you be snared by it; for it is an abomination to the Lord your God. "Nor shall you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be doomed to destruction like it; but you shall utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it is an accursed thing. Leviticus 7:25-26

The connection might be an obvious one to some, but it wasn't to me. I couldn't see it until God showed it to me. I'm sure that I've heard some sound preaching on the topic, relating the practices of Mannaseh and the bringing of idols into the temple as leading to the destruction of the first temple, by Nebuchadnezzers army. I've also heard it preached that Jesus' prohetic word was fulfilled with respect to this event in the destruction of Herod's temple in 70 AD when the Lord brought judgment against Jerusalem for the rejection of their Messiah (Romans were supposed to have entered the temple and set up standards and other images of worship prior to the rebellion, and similar events occurred prior to the birth of Christ which had lead to the Maccabean revolt.) The rebellion of the Jews against Rome and the destruction of the Jewish temple were undoubtably terrible times for the Jews, but not the tribulation to fall upon all nations.
Then there is another "school of thought" which gives a spiritual interpretation to the prophetic word in regard to the abomination of desolation. The New Testament epistles describe the body of Christ, the Church, as a spiritual temple built by God. The analogy is pressed far enough to explain that intentional sin brings destruction upon the flesh because the temple of the body is being defiled by idolatry.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

In this "spritual interpretation" of the "abomination of desolation", the phrase would refer to some sin brought into the "spiritual temple" of the Church, some form of idolatry. The protestant reformers responsible for the Westminster confession pointed to the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church as a kind or type of fulfillment of this idolatry, because of the blasphemous titles given to him such as "Holy Father" and the practices of bowing to him, kissing his ring, etc. However, there are at least two obvious problems with such an interpretation which are the reasons that some modern churches hold to the Westminster confession as a basic document of sound doctrine, yet reject the references to the Pope. I would reject the notion outright, simply because the Roman Catholic Church is not the original Church, but a splintered off branch (The first Christian Church was in Jerusalem and dispersed during the persecutions and destruction of Jerusalem.)

.....to be continued: I have to go to work...but discussion is welcome and my appollogies to any Roman Catholics that might participate in the forums. God gives grace to whom He chooses and no man is the arbiter of grace other than the God-man, Jesus Christ. My hope is that Roman Catholics would all be recipients of the same grace, but I would never agree with their doctrine.









 

rockytopva

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Hello Mr Pardo and welcome to the board...

The prophecies in both Daniel and the Gospels (Matthew 24:15-26) can refer to two events....

1. The end of time
2. The end of the first covenant

The last nail in the coffin of the first covenant was set when Titus came down and basically laid a swath of destruction all the way to Jerusalem itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29


This was the end of the world for the first covenant.
 
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veteran

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The idea of 'an' abomination was defined by God a lot earlier than Daniel...

Deut 7:25-26
25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.
26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.
(KJV)


Deut 27:15
15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
(KJV)


IKing 11:7
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
(KJV)


It's important to distinguish between committing an abomination, and the setting up of 'an' abomination. One involves an act The LORD detests. The other involves an idol or altar to another which makes Him jealous.



Ezek 8:3-6
3 And He put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.
5 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north." So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
6 He said furthermore unto me, "Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from My sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations."
(KJV)


So these verses...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)


Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)


Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(KJV)


Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
(KJV)


... are about the setting in place an idol to bow to in false worship against God, making Him jealous.

Per the end of Rev.13, that's exactly what the "another beast", the dragon, is to do in the last days, setting up an "image of the beast" for all to bow down to in false worship. It's as simple as that.


P.S. - the Romans never made it inside the temple at Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Per the Jewish historian Josephus the temple burned down before the Romans could enter it. The Jews inside fought the Roman army over it, and it caught fire. Thus the "abomination of desolation" prophecy was NOT fulfilled by the Romans in 70 A.D.
 

michaelvpardo

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The idea of 'an' abomination was defined by God a lot earlier than Daniel...

Deut 7:25-26
25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.
26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.
(KJV)


Deut 27:15
15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
(KJV)


IKing 11:7
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
(KJV)


It's important to distinguish between committing an abomination, and the setting up of 'an' abomination. One involves an act The LORD detests. The other involves an idol or altar to another which makes Him jealous.



Ezek 8:3-6
3 And He put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.
5 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north." So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
6 He said furthermore unto me, "Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from My sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations."
(KJV)


So these verses...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)


Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)


Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(KJV)


Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
(KJV)


... are about the setting in place an idol to bow to in false worship against God, making Him jealous.

Per the end of Rev.13, that's exactly what the "another beast", the dragon, is to do in the last days, setting up an "image of the beast" for all to bow down to in false worship. It's as simple as that.


P.S. - the Romans never made it inside the temple at Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Per the Jewish historian Josephus the temple burned down before the Romans could enter it. The Jews inside fought the Roman army over it, and it caught fire. Thus the "abomination of desolation" prophecy was NOT fulfilled by the Romans in 70 A.D.
 

michaelvpardo

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Somehow I fear that you may have missed my point. I've been reading the scriptures for about 47 years now (started at about the age of 8 years old,) but clearly couldn't understand them until after I was born again in Christ Jesus, back in the fall of 1995. The Lord, through the Holy Spirit has been illuminating the word to me since that time. As the Teacher, God not only gives understanding of scripture, but reveals error, though some say that the latter is related to a gift of the Spirit, and one of the discernment of spirits. When speaking to people (in the world) I can sometimes discern that I'm talking to someone other than just the person standing in front of me. In other words, the person has a visitor or regular co-inhabitant in his or her body (this is more than a little freaky and disturbing, but I've verified the reality of it to my own satisfaction.) When it comes to doctrinal issues, the Spirit of God within the believer confirms Truth, because it is of Him. When something doesn't seem like it's true, it usually isn't, not because you feel that it isn't true, but because it remains unconfimed by the Holy Spirit. The written word is more than sufficient to disprove most false doctrine, as it is consistent and in agreement with itself, just as God is consistent and in agreement with Himself. While Jesus is our mediatior with the Father, He doesn't act independently but in agreement with the Father. The Holy Spirit also acts in agreement with the Father. E.g. no one comes to the Son unless the Father calls Him. The Holy Spirit takes of what belongs to the Son and gives it to whomever He chooses. God is One God, even if we know Him in 3 persons: He is not divided. There are indeed many things which the scripture defines as an abomination before God. It identifies most of the things we do in opposition to His will as an abomination. The abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel and later quoted by Jesus is a reference to a particular thing which brings judgment upon the house that it has been set up in, as in the verse from the book of Deuteronomy that was in my original posting. I got a little sloppy with the quote and used Leviticus 7:25-26 as my refence, but this was actually from Deuteronomy 7:25-26 (sorry, my bad.)
I think that the practice of setting up actual idols in homes for the purpose of worship has become relatively rare in our time, but we have different forms of idolatry, that are less easily identified. It's also a fairly safe assumption that people have committed idolatry within the confines of the body of Christ, as we find the issue addressed and identified in the epistles to the first century Church. I believe that what separates the abomination of desolation or sets it apart as an act that brings judgment, is that it is not only intentional rather than accidental or coincidental, but accepted as legitimate by the occupants of the house. It may also be that the abomination of desolation is not itself the thing which brings on judgment, but is simply a sign of the times and the season of judgment, being indicative of the hearts of the people.
We live in a nation where the vast majority of citizens claim to believe in God, and a very large part of the population even lays claim to being "Christian," yet many of these are willing to accept the forced legalization of gay marriage as a constitutional right, or at the very least take a "tolerant" stance with the notion that whatever the next person does is okay as long as it doesn't affect my life or family, and are perfectly willing to legitimize sin in whatever form it takes as the right of the individual in their pursuit of happiness.
I am neither a legislator or a law enforcement officer. God did not call me to judge another man's sin, but He certainly did call me to discern it, to call it what it is, and to try to keep myself unstained by it. I fully understand that no one really is able to keep themselves free of sin and it was for this reason that Jesus surrendered His life on our behalf. The shed blood of our Savior cleanses us of all sin, if we have indeed entered into His covenant and continue to walk with Him, but here's the problem. We may not have been called to be our brother's keeper, but we are called to be his priest. A priest not only prays on behalf of others, but must also warn others about sin and it's consequence (and all sin has consequence,) through the preaching of the Word of God. I know that most people don't want to be considered "preachy" or put others off with what has all the appearance of self righteousness, yet we can't give the appearance that we are indifferent to sin. If we actually are indifferent to sin then it's questionable that we've ever known God or have any love for Him. Please don't read more into this than is intended. It is God alone, through the person of the Holy Spirit that convicts a heart of sin, but how will God do this when people have no knowledge of His Word? Even unsaved people have a conscience, but the conscience is subject to damage, being part of the soul, and can be rendered nonfunctional, it's prodding readily ignored. The Holy Spirit has no such limitation, but He acts through people and within people that are empowered by the word of God.
The things which the scripture says will happen, will happen regardless of whether or not we are faithful in our calling, but the Lord has clearly given us accountability for our words and our actions, and these reveal the things that are in our hearts. The study of the Word of God is not simply for our own edification, but for our sanctification, that we may, by the power of His Spirit, do His will rather than just know His will. I think that perhaps with regard to the Church, the abomination of desolation has to do with just who it is that's sitting on the throne. The rebellion of man has always been about doing our own will and to "be like God." God has always wanted us to be like Him, but to be submitted to Him, and the struggle is always "my will or thy will." In the kingdom parables, Jesus uses an allusion to something we see in a dream of King Nebuchadnezzer from the book of Daniel and in chapter 4 of that book. Nebuchadnezzer has a dream of a great tree in the midst of the earth which is interpreted by Daniel as a warning of judgment against the king. What was king Nebuchadnesser guilty of? What was the judgment of heaven? And what was the expression of the madness of the king? Jesus is the head of the Church and as long as we stay connected to Him, we have no problem, but what is the Church without that connection? When we deny the Word, we deny God. How do we stay connected to Jesus? Jesus tells us how to abide in Him, and leaves us with that responsibility. There are consequences for disobedience and tribulation is one of them.
 

BaldJohn

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Wow, very good reffrences here. well done all.

All idol worship is an abomination to our lord. I would take care with the spiritual aspect about the body being a temple tho. this is true and scriptually sound yes, however context is important. if you try and nitpick this to much, you could cause yourself to fall over it. we are human, and we are gonna sin.
we do not take license to sin with this thought, surly we strive to walk in Christs teachings, but be careful not to loose heart if you stumble. this is all I mean by that.

I think you are correct. one of the prophecies within the tribulaton is the rebuilding of the temple. This is an offence to God in itself, because after jesus was risen, the cloth that leads to the holy of holies was torn in two. meaning that Christ now was our direct link to God, and the temple is unnessessary. The rebuilding of the temple is a direct cause of the antichrist. he signs the peace treaty, enabling the temple to be built.

also, the jews as a whole do not believe in christ, so they think they still need a temple. When it is built, they will place great importance on it, as we can see that the antichrist causes the sacrifices to stop. this means that the jews got the temple functions up and running.
 

Alethos

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Matthew Verses 4-22

The view usually held of the Olivet prophecy is that it requires to be considered in two sections: verses 4-22 foretelling the troubles connected with the fall of Jerusalem; v 29 onwards concerning the return of Christ. This is broadly true, but there may be more to it than that.

"There is good reason for believing that the first section of Mat 24:4-22 will also find further fulfillment in the day of the Lord's return:

1. 'Let him that is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes' (Mat 24:17,18). Jesus used almost identical words concerning 'the days of the Son of man' (Luk 17:31).

2. 'For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be' (Mat 24:21). Yet OT prophets had already made the same portentous declaration regarding the Last Days: 'a time of trouble such as never was' (Dan 12:1; Joel 2:2; Jer 30:7). This evidence almost seems to require the conclusion that the real fulfillment of Mat 24:21 has not happened yet!

3. 'He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved' (Mat 24:13) has been interpreted in more than one way: (a) he who keeps the faith till the temple is destroyed? ( he who keeps the faith to the end of his life? (but this is a truism valid for every disciple in every age); © he who clings to the faith in the Last Days in spite of extreme discouragement? This presents least difficulty.

4. 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days...' (Mat 24:29) ceases to be a problem if the preceding section also has an application to the end of the present age.

5. 'Then let them which be in Judaea flee to the mountains (Mat 24:16). In Luke 17:28, Luke 17:29, Luke 17:32 Jesus pointed to an emphatic parallel between the Last Days and the deliverance of Lot. These words also echo Lot's experience (Gen 19:17).

6. 'And the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all the nations; and then shall the end come' (Mat 24:14). These words seem to require a further, more complete, fulfillment beyond that already suggested with reference to the First Century.

7. In Daniel 'the abomination of desolation' is apparently given reference to the Last Days as well as to the overthrow of Jerusalem (Dan 9:27; 8:13; 12:11). Jer_25:18 reinforces this view.

8. The warning against false Christ’s and false prophets (Mat 24:23-26) comes also in Luke 17:20-22 with reference to the coming of the Lord.

9. 'Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles' (Luke 21:24) is quoted from Zec 12:3 a Scripture that has every appearance of 'Last Day' application.

10. There is a remarkable set of similarities between the first part of the Olivet prophecy and Zec 14: (a) Jerusalem compassed with armies. All nations against Jerusalem to battle. The desolation thereof. The city taken. © Flee to the mountains. Ye shall! flee to the valley of the mountains. (d) Great distress in the land. Houses rifled, women ravished. (e) Led away captive into all nations. Half the city go forth into captivity. (f) The Son of man coming in a cloud. His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives"

 

michaelvpardo

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Matthew Verses 4-22

The view usually held of the Olivet prophecy is that it requires to be considered in two sections: verses 4-22 foretelling the troubles connected with the fall of Jerusalem; v 29 onwards concerning the return of Christ. This is broadly true, but there may be more to it than that.

"There is good reason for believing that the first section of Mat 24:4-22 will also find further fulfillment in the day of the Lord's return:

1. 'Let him that is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes' (Mat 24:17,18). Jesus used almost identical words concerning 'the days of the Son of man' (Luk 17:31).

2. 'For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be' (Mat 24:21). Yet OT prophets had already made the same portentous declaration regarding the Last Days: 'a time of trouble such as never was' (Dan 12:1; Joel 2:2; Jer 30:7). This evidence almost seems to require the conclusion that the real fulfillment of Mat 24:21 has not happened yet!

3. 'He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved' (Mat 24:13) has been interpreted in more than one way: (a) he who keeps the faith till the temple is destroyed? ( he who keeps the faith to the end of his life? (but this is a truism valid for every disciple in every age); © he who clings to the faith in the Last Days in spite of extreme discouragement? This presents least difficulty.

4. 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days...' (Mat 24:29) ceases to be a problem if the preceding section also has an application to the end of the present age.

5. 'Then let them which be in Judaea flee to the mountains (Mat 24:16). In Luke 17:28, Luke 17:29, Luke 17:32 Jesus pointed to an emphatic parallel between the Last Days and the deliverance of Lot. These words also echo Lot's experience (Gen 19:17).

6. 'And the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all the nations; and then shall the end come' (Mat 24:14). These words seem to require a further, more complete, fulfillment beyond that already suggested with reference to the First Century.

7. In Daniel 'the abomination of desolation' is apparently given reference to the Last Days as well as to the overthrow of Jerusalem (Dan 9:27; 8:13; 12:11). Jer_25:18 reinforces this view.

8. The warning against false Christ’s and false prophets (Mat 24:23-26) comes also in Luke 17:20-22 with reference to the coming of the Lord.

9. 'Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles' (Luke 21:24) is quoted from Zec 12:3 a Scripture that has every appearance of 'Last Day' application.

10. There is a remarkable set of similarities between the first part of the Olivet prophecy and Zec 14: (a) Jerusalem compassed with armies. All nations against Jerusalem to battle. The desolation thereof. The city taken. © Flee to the mountains. Ye shall! flee to the valley of the mountains. (d) Great distress in the land. Houses rifled, women ravished. (e) Led away captive into all nations. Half the city go forth into captivity. (f) The Son of man coming in a cloud. His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives"


Thank you for your astute observations and complete references. I realize that it's difficult to understand some of the prophecies of our Lord with regard to end times events as litteral interpretation doesn't always work. Jesus made reference to some of His own generation being witness to the prophetic events surrounding Jerusalem and from this we can infer that some of the prophecy finds its fulfillment in the destruction of the temple during the Jewish Revolt. Yet there is also a spiritual interpretation which goes beyond the simple litteral interpretation even to His reference to the generation of those that He addressed; e.g. there were disciples included in His audience, some of whom would be born again of His Spirit on the day of Pentecost (or at the time of His resurrected appearance where He breathed His Spirit out and upon His Apostles.) There is only one generation of born again Christians. All those who are born again of the Spirit of God are members of a single generation, having been renewed through faith in the sacrifice of our Savior's blood and having received His Spirit. We that are born again now are of the same spiritual generation as those who were born again in the 1st century Church. The implication of this is also that born again believers will be present to observe those last day events yet to come.
It may be that there will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. There are certainly Jewish groups of orthodox belief that are already gathering funds to build the temple, working on the design and manufacture of the objects required for temple worship, trying to identify descendants of Aaron for the levitical priesthood, etc. However, to rebuild the temple at the original site, it would be necessary to build around the mosque called the dome of the rock, or to first destroy the mosque. That site house the rock which Mohammed was supposed to have ascended to heaven from. This same rock is believed to have been used as an altar for the original site of the first temple, a part of the threshing floor that David purchased for the temple that he wanted to build. While such a thing could happen, it would ignite a storm of violence from the Muslim world (all of which is completely possible). I'm just not sure that such an event is really necessary to fulfill prophecy, given what has already occured in Jerusalem, physically with regard to the temple, and what is currently happening within the "spiritual temple" of the Church.
Before the birth of Jesus, the historical events recorded in the Bible, the poetic verse, and prophetic verse pointed to His appearance. The temple and it's objects were shadows of heavenly things also pointing to Christ and His Church. It isn't unreasonable to expect both a spiritual and a physical expression of the fulfillment of scripture to occur with regard to end time events, but I'm convinced that the order of occurence is no longer the spiritual fulfillment following the physical. Jesus is the central focus of Scripture. The prophets and bellievers of the Old Testament looked forward to His coming. We look back at His appearance (but with the hope of His return.) Before His appearing the shadow of the reality preceded Him, after His appearing the shadow of the reality follows Him. I understand that this may sound a bit cultic, but my observations (though relatively short) are that the spiritual realities associated with His return are preceeding the physical expressions of them, and this is completely appropriate in light of who He is, the Firstborn of all creation, the head and heart of the Church, God in the flesh and with us.
Got to go to work....take care and may the Lord bless and keep you. Amen.
 

veteran

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Our Lord Jesus while on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 was giving the 7 signs of the end paralled in His Book of Revelation. A careful study there reveals how those signs were not fulfilled in 70 A.D. No false messiah came per Matt.24:23-28, there was no gathering to Christ or freeing of the people; the temple burned down before the Romans could desolate it with idol worship; that generation is already dead and Christ's return has still not yet happenned nor were those events about His coming fulfilled; people fled Judea but many were taken in slavery by the Romans and sold among the nations; there were no great earthquakes reported with the 70 A.D. events; there was no great publishing of The Word of God then; not all the stones of the temple mount area were toppled; Israel ceased as a nation there then for 2,000 years until 1948, etc.

An honest look at those signs our Lord Jesus gave reveals so much that did NOT happen in 70 A.D., that it's actually silly to even give weight to the theory of it pointing to 70 A.D. events. Honestly, 70 A.D. was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed, including its temple. Nor was 70 A.D. the first time foreign armies surrounded it. It's been sieged by foreign armies something like 27 times in its history.

Even in 165-170 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes with an army took Jerusalem, went into the temple and sacrificed swine desolating it, and then setup an idol abomination in the temple to pagan Zeus, and commanded all to bow down in worship to that idol. The Romans in 70 A.D. didn't even get THAT far with setting up an abomination of desolation, for the temple burned down beforehand.

The Matt.24 and Mark 13 signs Christ gave have to be for the end of this world in the generation when He returns.

And within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period timing of Rev.11, the Scripture is showing a temple existing in Jerusalem in the end days. Those not seeing that have got a lot of catching up to do in God's Word, for the times today are very short. It's time to quit playing religion and Russian roulette with God's Word, and take Its prophecies seriously, and quit trying to play seminary elitism with eloquent oratorships and doctrines of men. It's time to use common sense in God's Word and speak plainly to warn the brethren in Christ Jesus.
 

Alethos

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Our Lord Jesus while on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 was giving the 7 signs of the end paralled in His Book of Revelation. A careful study there reveals how those signs were not fulfilled in 70 A.D. No false messiah came per Matt.24:23-28, there was no gathering to Christ or freeing of the people; the temple burned down before the Romans could desolate it with idol worship; that generation is already dead and Christ's return has still not yet happenned nor were those events about His coming fulfilled; people fled Judea but many were taken in slavery by the Romans and sold among the nations; there were no great earthquakes reported with the 70 A.D. events; there was no great publishing of The Word of God then; not all the stones of the temple mount area were toppled; Israel ceased as a nation there then for 2,000 years until 1948, etc.

An honest look at those signs our Lord Jesus gave reveals so much that did NOT happen in 70 A.D., that it's actually silly to even give weight to the theory of it pointing to 70 A.D. events. Honestly, 70 A.D. was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed, including its temple. Nor was 70 A.D. the first time foreign armies surrounded it. It's been sieged by foreign armies something like 27 times in its history.

Even in 165-170 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes with an army took Jerusalem, went into the temple and sacrificed swine desolating it, and then setup an idol abomination in the temple to pagan Zeus, and commanded all to bow down in worship to that idol. The Romans in 70 A.D. didn't even get THAT far with setting up an abomination of desolation, for the temple burned down beforehand.

The Matt.24 and Mark 13 signs Christ gave have to be for the end of this world in the generation when He returns.

And within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period timing of Rev.11, the Scripture is showing a temple existing in Jerusalem in the end days. Those not seeing that have got a lot of catching up to do in God's Word, for the times today are very short. It's time to quit playing religion and Russian roulette with God's Word, and take Its prophecies seriously, and quit trying to play seminary elitism with eloquent oratorships and doctrines of men. It's time to use common sense in God's Word and speak plainly to warn the brethren in Christ Jesus.

I am not being smart in saying this as it is often differcult to know ones motive or attutude when asking questions.

I have completed a thorough study of AD 70 and the propechies in Daniel, Duet etc. and wondered how you interpret the 70 week propechy, if in fact you dont believe Matt 24 is speaking to AD70.

Alethos
 

michaelvpardo

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Our Lord Jesus while on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 was giving the 7 signs of the end paralled in His Book of Revelation. A careful study there reveals how those signs were not fulfilled in 70 A.D. No false messiah came per Matt.24:23-28, there was no gathering to Christ or freeing of the people; the temple burned down before the Romans could desolate it with idol worship; that generation is already dead and Christ's return has still not yet happenned nor were those events about His coming fulfilled; people fled Judea but many were taken in slavery by the Romans and sold among the nations; there were no great earthquakes reported with the 70 A.D. events; there was no great publishing of The Word of God then; not all the stones of the temple mount area were toppled; Israel ceased as a nation there then for 2,000 years until 1948, etc.

An honest look at those signs our Lord Jesus gave reveals so much that did NOT happen in 70 A.D., that it's actually silly to even give weight to the theory of it pointing to 70 A.D. events. Honestly, 70 A.D. was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed, including its temple. Nor was 70 A.D. the first time foreign armies surrounded it. It's been sieged by foreign armies something like 27 times in its history.

Even in 165-170 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes with an army took Jerusalem, went into the temple and sacrificed swine desolating it, and then setup an idol abomination in the temple to pagan Zeus, and commanded all to bow down in worship to that idol. The Romans in 70 A.D. didn't even get THAT far with setting up an abomination of desolation, for the temple burned down beforehand.

The Matt.24 and Mark 13 signs Christ gave have to be for the end of this world in the generation when He returns.

And within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period timing of Rev.11, the Scripture is showing a temple existing in Jerusalem in the end days. Those not seeing that have got a lot of catching up to do in God's Word, for the times today are very short. It's time to quit playing religion and Russian roulette with God's Word, and take Its prophecies seriously, and quit trying to play seminary elitism with eloquent oratorships and doctrines of men. It's time to use common sense in God's Word and speak plainly to warn the brethren in Christ Jesus.

I have heard this interpretation a number of times before and am inclined to believe it. However, the point that I'm trying to make is that the end time signs are physical manifestations of spiritual truths that have preceeded them. Let me start very simply, with the Church, the resurrection, and the "Kingdom of God." In the Old Testament, God promised to redeem His people. This redemption is accomplished fully in Christ Jesus, yet we know that there is a final redemption of the body, a resurrection in which believers are perfected and completely renewed in the image of our Savior. As born again believers in Jesus Christ, we are in effect two men, a carnal man born of the flesh, subject to both corruption and decay, sickness illness, and primarily sin and it's consequence. The other man is the spiritual man who is made alive in Christ, born of the Spirit of God. These are our two natures as believers (before being born again we were dead spiritually and had only one nature.) Throughout our entire lives we have the internal battle of the spiritual man against the carnal man. The Spiritual man lives and breathes only by the grace of God and through His Spirit received through faith in Christ Jesus. We are left with a choice that unbelievers don't have; To walk with God, abiding in Christ and in His commandments, a living part of that spiritual vine planted by God and pleasing to Him, or we can choose to live by the lusts and passions of our flesh, surrendering to our evil desires, but this way leads to death. In the great apostasy, this is where the Church is largely going.
Back to my point: As believers we have the Holy Spirit of God within us and God is many things to us in the person of His Holy Spirit, but the One that I'm focusing on is the guarantor of our salvation and the mark of ownership by our God. In this respect, the presence of the Holy Spirit within us is like a downpayment on eternity. Knowing that we know Him through His Spirit, we can trust that we will receive the rest of His promises, most significantly a resurrection in a glorified body that will live with Him, basking in His presence for all eternity. We have no yet received the physical reality of a resurrected body, but we have allready received glorification through the promise and the presence of His Spirit: This is a done deal. If we have His Spirit, having received Him by faith, all the rest is guaranteed. We possess the spiritual reality, but the physical reality is yet to come (by our perception through time, though in God's view this was done from the beginning of all creation.)
Also, we have the kingdom of God with us and within us. Jesus announced the coming of the Kingdom of God, not the future coming, but the present coming as in it is here with you now. We know that the scripture has promised a physical kingdom and we pray for it's arrival even as Jesus taught His disciples to pray, but He also taught that the Kingdom of God arrived with Him, being built upon the profession of faith in His Lordship and the receiving of His Spirit after His sacrifice upon the cross. As believers we have received the kingdom of God within us (to the extent that we are faithful and walk with Him,) We are a nation with a homeland not of this world, waiting for the city of God, that new Jerusalem not built by the hands of men. We own the spiritual reality of the Kingdom of God, but we have not yet received the physical reality of the Kingdom of God. In both cases, since the resurrection of our Lord, the spiritual reality proceeds the physical reality.
If you're following me now, consider that the physical signs given by God of His coming (2nd) actually follow the spiritual realities of His second coming. I know that this is difficult to wrap your mind around, but as an example, consider the bowl judgments. There's only one that the Lord gave me a clear understanding of, because it was relevant to the time that I was writing a message dealing with it. In Revelation 16:10-11 we see the fifth angel pouring out his bowl (of wrath) upon the throne of the beast, "and his kingdom became full of darkness." This passage is a parrallel passage to Isaiah 8:19-22 (It may not refer to the same physical event, but refers to the same spiritual reality.) We think of this judgment as a time when physical darkness will come upon the world and a plague of some nature, causing sores and pain (also like one of the plagues of Egypt.) This may indeed happen as a physical sign of His coming, but the spiritual reality of it already exists. Open sores, under levitical law, made a person ritually unclean, much the same as leprosy. However, the uncleannes of the law is a physical sign of a spiritual truth. Jesus demonstrated that the uncleanness of leprosy and disease didn't make Him unclean in that He touched the unclean and purified them. The physical signs were representative of spirtual truth, uncleanness representing the defilement of sin.
People tend to think that Jesus saved all the people that He healed, but the healings were signs of what would come by faith in Him, which is a purification of the soul through His blood. The sores described in Revelation 16:11 may indeed occurr physically, but they would remain signs of a spiritual truth that has already happened. The people of the beast's kingdom have already made themselves spiritually unclean through their actions. They are not ignorant of their sin, because they have heard and rejected the gospel. The saints of the tribulation continue to preach the gospel of repentance, but those who have received the mark reject the message, "and did not repent of their deeds." The spiritual truth leads the physical signs (shadows) of the truth.
The message that I previously wrote, I had titled "the coming darkness," even though it was already here and has been (to some extent) as long as the gospel has been preached. Isaiah speaks to spiritual darkness in chapter 8 of Isaiah, where he rebukes Israel for seeking answers and help from mediums and wizards (really doctrines of demons) when they should be looking to the law and the testimony (the scriptures:) "If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The Apostle Paul warns about the falling away and that people will seek other teachings after their own hearts (but not according to God and His Word). The "darkness" is upon us (spiritually) and gets worse every day. Christians need to understand this and cling to the Word. We need to live it, breathe it, and especially wash in it, as this world defiles us repeatedly with a flood of filth, much of which still has appeal to our fleshly nature. We are in the midst of a terrible battle and have no hope of standing on our own, but must be firmly rooted in the Word, seeking the Lord continuously through prayer and godly action. Brothers, I preach to myself as much as to you. I won't survive unless I abide in the body, and the body abides in Christ. I thank and praise God that there are forums like this one that have believers who spend time in the Word seeking God and a better understanding of His will. We may contend for the faith (and do so in obedience to His Word) but the purpose of this forum is to grow in the knowledge of the Lord and thereby grow in sanctification, not to prove ourselves more knowledgeable than the next man, or more spiritual, or more sanctified. What do you have that God hasn't given you? How do you boast over a gift that's received? How do you take pride in your service, when that service is granted by grace?
I'm not trying to offend here or to point fingers, just sweeping out the leaven and preparing the house. I'm not the only one called to this, we all are.
 

veteran

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I have heard this interpretation a number of times before and am inclined to believe it. However, the point that I'm trying to make is that the end time signs are physical manifestations of spiritual truths that have preceeded them. Let me start very simply, with the Church, the resurrection, and the "Kingdom of God." In the Old Testament, God promised to redeem His people. This redemption is accomplished fully in Christ Jesus, yet we know that there is a final redemption of the body, a resurrection in which believers are perfected and completely renewed in the image of our Savior. As born again believers in Jesus Christ, we are in effect two men, a carnal man born of the flesh, subject to both corruption and decay, sickness illness, and primarily sin and it's consequence. The other man is the spiritual man who is made alive in Christ, born of the Spirit of God. These are our two natures as believers (before being born again we were dead spiritually and had only one nature.) Throughout our entire lives we have the internal battle of the spiritual man against the carnal man. The Spiritual man lives and breathes only by the grace of God and through His Spirit received through faith in Christ Jesus. We are left with a choice that unbelievers don't have; To walk with God, abiding in Christ and in His commandments, a living part of that spiritual vine planted by God and pleasing to Him, or we can choose to live by the lusts and passions of our flesh, surrendering to our evil desires, but this way leads to death. In the great apostasy, this is where the Church is largely going.

Yes, excellent. Except I see the great apostasy Paul mentioned as a specific event linked with false worship to the coming false messiah; many will think and be told by religious leaders that that coming false one is our Lord. It's that event which I believe is what the great tribulation is about, its main event, and will involve persecution that comes from that event only upon Christ's faithful who refuse to bow to that false one. We each battle with the flesh and its lusts and passions daily, but not with the coming temptation to bow to a false messiah having the power of miracles to almost cause us to believe it.


Back to my point: As believers we have the Holy Spirit of God within us and God is many things to us in the person of His Holy Spirit, but the One that I'm focusing on is the guarantor of our salvation and the mark of ownership by our God. In this respect, the presence of the Holy Spirit within us is like a downpayment on eternity. Knowing that we know Him through His Spirit, we can trust that we will receive the rest of His promises, most significantly a resurrection in a glorified body that will live with Him, basking in His presence for all eternity. We have no yet received the physical reality of a resurrected body, but we have allready received glorification through the promise and the presence of His Spirit: This is a done deal. If we have His Spirit, having received Him by faith, all the rest is guaranteed. We possess the spiritual reality, but the physical reality is yet to come (by our perception through time, though in God's view this was done from the beginning of all creation.)

Not for all is it a completely done deal, simply because our Lord warned about the "unprofitable servant" and the five foolish virgins. There is emotion involving a sense of spirituality that can mislead us if we allow. That should be obvious with man's history of playing religion in trying to be holy. The coming events in our near future will be for the purpose of separating those who thrive on religious emotion as truth, instead of staying in God's Word for the real truth. Regardless of how much a believer claims Christ as their Saviour, or how close to real holiness they become, if they don't remain faithful to Him all the way to the end, they can still be in danger of appearing spiritually naked and ashamed when He comes. But with some of His servants, He has already shown them events to come in our near future for the tribulation, and is leading them into a certain duty He has for them in that time. Not all are called for that specific duty, nor are all believers being prepared for it.


Also, we have the kingdom of God with us and within us. Jesus announced the coming of the Kingdom of God, not the future coming, but the present coming as in it is here with you now. We know that the scripture has promised a physical kingdom and we pray for it's arrival even as Jesus taught His disciples to pray, but He also taught that the Kingdom of God arrived with Him, being built upon the profession of faith in His Lordship and the receiving of His Spirit after His sacrifice upon the cross. As believers we have received the kingdom of God within us (to the extent that we are faithful and walk with Him,) We are a nation with a homeland not of this world, waiting for the city of God, that new Jerusalem not built by the hands of men. We own the spiritual reality of the Kingdom of God, but we have not yet received the physical reality of the Kingdom of God. In both cases, since the resurrection of our Lord, the spiritual reality proceeds the physical reality.

I understand. But our Lord Jesus did actually establish a literal kingdom structure upon this earth after His resurrection too. The kingdom of Israel during Old Testament history was the start of it, but because many of Israel rejected Him, He moved it and the promises to another nation (Matt.21 with the parable of the husbandmen). Because He was rejected by many of Israel, His final Kingdom was put in abeyance and is still expecting today. That final part is what you're talking about with the future city of God manifested upon this earth, involving the future redemption when He returns. It's like God is showing the devil that he cannot ever have complete control of this earth, simply with God having established His people on earth through history, and for today with His Church. Christ's Church is literally on earth today too. It's because His promises have real substance and literally involve also the earth. That's why He promised His servants and the meek shall inherit this earth, but the wicked will in final be cut off from it.


If you're following me now, consider that the physical signs given by God of His coming (2nd) actually follow the spiritual realities of His second coming. I know that this is difficult to wrap your mind around, but as an example, consider the bowl judgments. There's only one that the Lord gave me a clear understanding of, because it was relevant to the time that I was writing a message dealing with it. In Revelation 16:10-11 we see the fifth angel pouring out his bowl (of wrath) upon the throne of the beast, "and his kingdom became full of darkness." This passage is a parrallel passage to Isaiah 8:19-22 (It may not refer to the same physical event, but refers to the same spiritual reality.) We think of this judgment as a time when physical darkness will come upon the world and a plague of some nature, causing sores and pain (also like one of the plagues of Egypt.) This may indeed happen as a physical sign of His coming, but the spiritual reality of it already exists. Open sores, under levitical law, made a person ritually unclean, much the same as leprosy. However, the uncleannes of the law is a physical sign of a spiritual truth. Jesus demonstrated that the uncleanness of leprosy and disease didn't make Him unclean in that He touched the unclean and purified them. The physical signs were representative of spirtual truth, uncleanness representing the defilement of sin.

I understand how many events of Bible history can have a deeper spiritual sense, but that's only for the purpose of cementing a truth in reality. There is a problem with some who swap the deeper spiritual truth for the reality it's actually meant for. Some get into a 'mystical' mode too much with God's Word and leave the literal sense the Message was pointing to, when the spiritual side is only to help grasp the real lesson.

I see what you mean with the Isaiah 8 example, and if you'll look further, you'll see how that whole chapter parallels events in Revelation, especially starting at verse 7. There's a section of Isaiah chapters some Bible scholars call 'the Apocalypse of Isaiah', because they parallel the events of Revelation. There's actually many endtime parallels in all the OT prophets. Grasping most of them is important to properly understand our Lord's Book of Revelation, for many of the symbols in Revelation originated in the Books of the Old Testament prophets, especially the major prophets.


People tend to think that Jesus saved all the people that He healed, but the healings were signs of what would come by faith in Him, which is a purification of the soul through His blood. The sores described in Revelation 16:11 may indeed occurr physically, but they would remain signs of a spiritual truth that has already happened. The people of the beast's kingdom have already made themselves spiritually unclean through their actions. They are not ignorant of their sin, because they have heard and rejected the gospel. The saints of the tribulation continue to preach the gospel of repentance, but those who have received the mark reject the message, "and did not repent of their deeds." The spiritual truth leads the physical signs (shadows) of the truth.

Look at Rev.9:20-21 which goes with that. It divides two different groups that working of the locust army is upon. Their type of killing is about spiritual death, not literal physical death, because of Rev.9:4-6. That word for plagues can mean affliction, calamity, etc. So the sores may indeed be especially about spiritual death of the soul.


The message that I previously wrote, I had titled "the coming darkness," even though it was already here and has been (to some extent) as long as the gospel has been preached. Isaiah speaks to spiritual darkness in chapter 8 of Isaiah, where he rebukes Israel for seeking answers and help from mediums and wizards (really doctrines of demons) when they should be looking to the law and the testimony (the scriptures:) "If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The Apostle Paul warns about the falling away and that people will seek other teachings after their own hearts (but not according to God and His Word). The "darkness" is upon us (spiritually) and gets worse every day. Christians need to understand this and cling to the Word. We need to live it, breathe it, and especially wash in it, as this world defiles us repeatedly with a flood of filth, much of which still has appeal to our fleshly nature. We are in the midst of a terrible battle and have no hope of standing on our own, but must be firmly rooted in the Word, seeking the Lord continuously through prayer and godly action. Brothers, I preach to myself as much as to you. I won't survive unless I abide in the body, and the body abides in Christ. I thank and praise God that there are forums like this one that have believers who spend time in the Word seeking God and a better understanding of His will. We may contend for the faith (and do so in obedience to His Word) but the purpose of this forum is to grow in the knowledge of the Lord and thereby grow in sanctification, not to prove ourselves more knowledgeable than the next man, or more spiritual, or more sanctified. What do you have that God hasn't given you? How do you boast over a gift that's received? How do you take pride in your service, when that service is granted by grace?
I'm not trying to offend here or to point fingers, just sweeping out the leaven and preparing the house. I'm not the only one called to this, we all are.

Well said. But don't forget the main event of the apostasy, for it has not appeared yet today. The one-world structure being prepared over all nations today with a joining of nations is in prep to offer the world a false god. All the strife and working of wizards that peep in the last days is for the purpose of bringing 'their' false one to power over all the earth. That's part of the Message in Isaiah 8 also, with the Assyrian as a metaphor for the coming false messiah.

 

veteran

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I am not being smart in saying this as it is often differcult to know ones motive or attutude when asking questions.

I have completed a thorough study of AD 70 and the propechies in Daniel, Duet etc. and wondered how you interpret the 70 week propechy, if in fact you dont believe Matt 24 is speaking to AD70.

Alethos


I interpret the 70 years events Daniel was given as not being done until Christ appears a second time.

The "abomination" per what Daniel was given with "abomination of desolation" is not just about a literal destruction of buildings and the city, but especially the setting up of an idol abomination inside a temple in Jerusalem for false worship, a.k.a., the example in Ezekiel 8 with the image of jealousy (which was a vision given Ezekiel that did not happen in history, not yet).


But there have been historical blueprints for that event. The 165-170 B.C. one with Antiochus Epiphanes was the nearest fit to date. Antiochus conquered Jerusalem with an army, and actually desolated the second temple in Jerusalem with sacrifice of swine, and then setup an idol abomination in false worship involving pagan Greek worship. But Antiochus did not destroy Jerusalem nor the temple.

Around 135 A.D., the false messiah Bar-Cochebas siezed the ruins, actually changed Jerusalem's name to AElia Capitolina and built a temple to the pagan god Jupiter. The Romans ended that with a siege.

Around 500-470 B.C. by Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, partially pillaging the 1st temple in Jehoiakim's reign. Then several years later again in Jehoaichin's reign, and in final with destroying the temple and Jerusalem in Zedekiah's reign. Nebuchadnezzar setup an idol image of himself in false worship, but not inside the Jerusalem temple, since he destroyed it.

Around 630 A.D., the Muslim Turks took Jerusalem, built the Dome of the Rock, and Jerusalem remained in Muslim possession until Britain defeated the Turks in WWI. Not long after the Balflour Plan was devised for a peace plan in Jerusalem for both Jews and Muslims together inheriting it in peace. Though Israel becoming a nation state there again in 1948, and was no doubt per God's promise, it also was part of that Balflour peace plan. In the 1967 war, Israel took all of Jerusalem, but then under the peace plan gave a portion of it back to the Muslims.

Around 600 B.C., Sennacherib king of Assyria sieged Jerusalem under Hezekiah's reign. The siege was lifted by God's Divine intervention because of Hezekiah's prayer (see Isaiah 36 forward). So even though no false messiah event happened with that, nor a setting up of an idol abomination, nor destruction of the temple or Jerusalem happenned, it's still a blueprint for the final siege of Jerusalem by armies, and then with Christ's coming to lift the future siege.

For those who study deeper, I think it's why Isaiah was given prophecy like Isaiah 8 linking the king of Assyria as a 'type' for the future false messiah and his armies sieging Jerusalem for the last days. God used the Assyrian title in several places in the OT prophets to point to Satan himself (like Ezek.31; Isa.30 about Tophet put for the lake of fire, etc.). Sennacherib was a descendent of Sargon. Sargon I was pretty much when false idol worship began in ancient Sumer-Babylon.

Covering Jerusalem's history sieges and especially the OT prophets about the last days involving Jerusalem is important for putting the 70 A.D. Roman destruction of Jerusalem in its proper perspective. Our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse should never be considered ultimately as a lone study by itself, nor the abomination of desolation event of the Book of Daniel as a separate study. Every event God gave in His Word about the last days of this world when Christ returns must be included in study with it at some point. A deeper study of the signs Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13; portions of Luke 17 and 21), reveals those are also the signs of the seven seals of Revelation.

So what's that 'abomination of desolation' for Jerusalem really all about? If the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem actually build another Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end, then I think all living in that time will learn what it's about. Satan since he rebelled has always coveted God's Throne and that includes Jerusalem on earth, the place where God has chosen to dwell forever, the Zion He loves. Per Isaiah 14:13 God told us how Satan has claimed he will sit upon the mount of the congrgation in the sides of the north. That's God's Place. That's the place in the north of the Temple in Ezekiel 8 where the "image of jealousy" is shown. Thus Satan actually wants to be literally worshipped by God's people. And that's what he's planning to do for the end of this world. That's what the real abomination is about, and its purpose is to cause a desolation upon the soul's of God's people, causing spiritual death.


 

michaelvpardo

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Well said. But don't forget the main event of the apostasy, for it has not appeared yet today. The one-world structure being prepared over all nations today with a joining of nations is in prep to offer the world a false god. All the strife and working of wizards that peep in the last days is for the purpose of bringing 'their' false one to power over all the earth. That's part of the Message in Isaiah 8 also, with the Assyrian as a metaphor for the coming false messiah.

I fully agree. The spirit of anti-christ, that which denies that Jesus is the Christ, has been present in the world at least since His appearing (and probably before,) but the fullness of the expression of the anti-christ, the son of perdition, is foreshadowed in the person of Judas Iscariot, who Jesus labels a "son of perdition" in his prayer on the night that He was betrayed. I believe that this anti-christ is already in the world, and already battling the saints, but has yet to be identified.
I'm currently taking some on-line courses for work that are a requirement for a supervisory position. These courses (which are Masonic in origin) teach as a foundational premise that people control their own destiny. The courses cover effective communication, negotiation, leadership, management skills, etc. and include basic skill bulding in manipulating other people to come to agreement with you. The motivation for learning and implementing the skills are primarily: career advancement, having people look up to you, recognition and pride in your accomplishments, and a fast path to the top of the heap (knowing these things you shall be as God). The organization that I work for prohibits employees from discussing them with media, so I try not to cross the line with their identity and thereby giving them cause to fire me or take other disciplinary action, but they are looked up to within the business community, not just in the metro area, but world wide. Their course material states that it is part of their plan for management organization for the new millenia, so they make no pretense at being a unique case or separate from world influence. The stage is being set for the anti-christ, but the form of idolatry that is currently the greatest threat is the movement to self empowerment and the denial that God is Sovereign in the World of men. The notion that we control our destinies may not be a complete denial of the person of God, but it certainly denies His power and His character and who cares about a god that just sits back and watches the turning of events. I've found the course material to be very simple and easily remembered and implemented. If I didn't already know God, I would be racing up the path to Hell. Furthermore, these courses aren't directed simply to management, but are intended for the average employee as well, to encourage them to be leaders on the front line, using their full potential, and taking hold of their destinies. This is the world system at work big time. Stong values and ethics are also expressed as important, but these are left to personal choice (as we all have our own values and ethics), translation: whatever you believe is fine as long as you act in a consistent and predictable manner that can be observed and manipulated.
I work with a few brothers in the Lord and joke with them that we're working in the gates of Babylon, or in the belly of the beast, but in the modern business world, who isn't? This is why I say that we need to remain firmly rooted in the Word and well practiced in prayer and Christian fellowship. The Christian who tries to stand alone is an easy target for the predators. Praise God that He is our shield and defender, but we still need the body and the body needs to stay connected to the head, even our Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen.
 

revturmoil

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The stage is being set for the anti-christ, but the form of idolatry that is currently the greatest threat is the movement to self empowerment and the denial that God is Sovereign in the World of men.

The denial that God is Sovereign isn't idolatry. That's just plain old unbelief. Self empowerment isn't idolatry either and and how in the world would that be the greatest threat. I've had some people say that Muslim's don't bow down to idols. Are they oblivious to the fact that Muslim's bow toward a rock in Mecca Saudi Arabia 5 times a day? Is it a threat to the world that Arab/Islamic regimes want nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel? Does it matter that Islam wants to dominate the world through demographics and terrorism? Does it matter that in the last 100 years Muslim's have murdered more people than those of the holocaust! And you consider self-empowerment the greatest form of idolatry and the greatest threat?

 

 

 
 
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Alethos

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Mar 8, 2011
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I interpret the 70 years events Daniel was given as not being done until Christ appears a second time.


SEVENTY SEVENS Dan 9:24

Do you understand the Seventy seven-year periods as a total of 490 years?

We know when this was given Jerusalem was suffering under the hand of Gentiles for 70 years (v 2), so the Jews and Jerusalem would suffer under the hand of Gentiles for 490 years (based on 70x7). "Your people" and "your holy city" are obvious references to the Jews and Jerusalem (cf verse Dan 9:7, Dan 9:11, Dan 9:20). They have nothing to do with the church, which is a distinct from Israel (ie, 1 Co 10:32).

So it appears God had decreed these years. And it is here that I wish to explore you understanding of future 2nd advent fulfilment.

The destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 was defined in the following events: (my understanding)

(1) This event will end Jewish rebellion ("transgression") against Him.
(2) This event will end human failure to obey God ("sin").
(3) This event will provide time for atonement that will cover human wickedness.

(4) This event will inaugurate a new society in which righteousness prevails.
(5) It will bring in the fulfillment of the vision that God has for the earth ("vision and prophecy").
(6) It will result in the anointing of the most holy, probably a reference to a new and more glorious permanent "temple" literal & spiritual.

From my understanding of Daniel 9 God has already achieved some of these goals (in bold), specifically the third one (with the death and resurrection of Christ which is clear), and to some extent the first two (through the mediatorial work of the resurrected Christ). However, the other goals have not yet seen fulfilment. Therefore it is reasonable to look for a future fulfilment from our perspective in history. And this will surely be fulfilled in the very near future, with the last great tribulations, leading on the return of Christ to redeem His people Israel.

Thank you in advance

Alethos
 

Alethos

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Michael V. Pardo said,



Would it be asking too much for somebody to prove to me that the apostasy will have anything to do with the church?

Well the obvious first: An Apostasy can only be an Apostasy, if at some time it once held "Truth" else it cannot be Apostate.
I know this is simple and very logical.

I will follow shortly with some scriptures to assist

Alethos



 

revturmoil

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Well the obvious first: An Apostasy can only be an Apostasy, if at some time it once held "Truth" else it cannot be Apostate.
I know this is simple and very logical.

I will follow shortly with some scriptures to assist

Alethos

The experts would like you to believe it has something to do with a defection from truth but I know that it doesn't. I'm interested to see what scriptures you come up with.
 

Alethos

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
685
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Melbourne Australia
The experts would like you to believe it has something to do with a defection from truth but I know that it doesn't. I'm interested to see what scriptures you come up with.

It is my sincere concern that the "future antichrist and his apostate church " will inevitably cause its supporters to reject Jesus when he comes again.

Who may that be? Mother of Harlots?...and her many daughters?

A "strong delusion" has been sent among the people today "to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It is my hope that as many as possible can welcome the reign of the Lord Jesus Christ when he comes to rule on earth during the Kingdom of God.

I am reluctant to name those denominations who fall under 2 Thess 2:11-12 out of respect for the forums rules.

Alethos