Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Kermos · Aug 18, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Man have a will.

Man has a will.

The Apostle Paul wrote of man's will and man's work as the work of God in man with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so with Paul I say man does have a will (noun).

THE APOSTLE PAUL CONVEYED THAT MAN HAS A BOND-WILL, NOT A FREE-WILL, BUT A BOND-WILL IN PHILIPPIANS 2:13!

Tong2020 said:
He was given freedom to make his choice. We are all living proof of that. However, this is not something that man could boast about. It is not some power given by God to man that others seems to think, a power that overrides the sovereignty of God over them. That is evil pride and is sin. It offends God. But equally, to deny having been given a will is likewise evil. For such is a lie, and offends God as well.

The matter of God’s salvation of fallen man is something that belongs only to God. He is sovereign. He gives mercy to whom He wills to have mercy, according to the counsel of His will and His divine nature.

Tong
R4043

"The matter of God’s salvation of fallen man is something that belongs only to God" except salvation for the fallen man cannot happen unless the fallen man chooses God according to free-will philosophy.

A fallen man, "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Man must be born of God in order to even perceive King Jesus (John 3:3).

In your heart you embrace man "was given freedom to make his choice" doctrine of demons which opposes the Sovereignty of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Kermos · Aug 18, 2021

Tong2020 said:
If so, I think you are not effectively putting that across.

In this post God had me make to you, I wrote:

The word "choose" is not in 'and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"' (Genesis 2:16-17), so you are adding choice into the Word of God; furthermore, a command of God is obeyed or disobeyed, so an action occurs, not a choice without explicit expression in the command of God, but fruit occurs.

Now, @Tong2020, notice the conceptual similarity between what you expressed to @Taken in your post and what I wrote.

Tong2020 said:
The ability of man to make choices is real. Man was given by God, his own will. He can choose according to the counsel of his will, in much everything that involves his life on earth, including things pertaining to the things of the Spirit of God.

A fleshy man, a natural man (the first state of every mere man) CANNOT receive God unless God bears the man anew for it is written "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

A natural man CANNOT perceive God unless God bears the man anew for the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

A natural man CANNOT choose God for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Tong2020 said:
It’s just that man, in Adam that is, have disobeyed God’s commandment, in spite of the warning and disaster embodied in the commandment. That disobedience had brought man, judgment (Rom.5:18) resulting to condemnation. They became a slave of sin that rendered their will pertaining to the things of the Spirit of God to be restrained and “dead”. So that, the fallen man is “spiritually dead”, unable to choose God and things pertaining to the Spirit of God.

Tong
R4045

In effect, you conveyed that Adam's "will" was the cause of Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; however, as this post in this thread shows, God declares that Adam listened to the voice of his wife as the cause for Adam to eat of the tree (Genesis 3:17), and Paul conveyed Adam did not willingly eat of the tree (Romans 8:20-22).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Kermos · Aug 18, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Any body can quote scriptures. And with reference to those, they say what they say. So, I am not referring to the quoted scriptures as wells without water, but to the rest of what had been written, specially those which constitutes an attack to one’s person which does not have anything to do with the quoted scriptures.

If I quote the whole Bible, then make a claim or two, and you say that what I was saying is false and are like wells without water, would you be said to be saying that against the scriptures I quoted. I don’t think any good mannered and right thinking Christian would say that against the very scriptures he claim to believe as God’s words.

Tong
R4047

A Christian heart does not void nor disbelieve the Word of God, including Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Such voidance and disbelief are tantamount to rejection of Who Jesus Christ says He is.

Lord Jesus says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

A person who claims "I chose Jesus" or "I accepted Jesus" does the opposite of that which Jesus says; therefore, such a self-willed person (2 Peter 2;9-10) reviles the majesty of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

@Tong2020, if you go back and look at the post then you should see a plethora of scripture in the post to which you referred to as "wells without water".

The post heads off with the citation of "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6).

This means that either you called Jesus' words of Christ being Life "wells without water" or you arrogantly called when I wrote your words are not life "wells without water".

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
What I do assert, is what the scriptures says, like in Joshua 24. That the people God had chosen from among the peoples of the world, choose to serve God at the time of Joshua and in all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua.

Click to expand...

As this post in this thread shows, the words and surrounding context of Joshua 24:15 indicates inability for people to choose to serve God precisely as Joshua said (Joshua 24:19).

I do not ignore this truth concerning Israel in this scriptures. Very clear.

Joshua 24:31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Another is what scriptures say in Romans 5, with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which I am just showing you here.

Click to expand...

The Apostle Paul mentions "obedience" one time in Romans chapter 5, and Paul mentions "disobedience" one time in Romans chapter 5.

"For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:19) wrote Paul.

Notice that:

(A) Paul identifies Adam with "disobedience".

(B) Paul DOES NOT identify Adam with "obedience".

(C) Paul identifies Jesus with "obedience".

(D) Paul DOES NOT identify Jesus with "disobedience".

all in Romans chapter 5.

Adam was not guilty of disobedience prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6); moreover, Adam was guilty of disobedience after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:17).

No scripture throughout the entirety of the Bible indicates that Adam was obedient. Scripture only indicates Adam's disobedience.

No scripture states that Adam had the ability to be obedient; therefore, Adam was not guilty of violating God's command recorded in Genesis 2:16-17) prior to eating (Genesis 3:6).

As this post in this thread shows, scripturally a difference exists between Adam being not guilty before eating of the tree versus Adam being in obedience before eating of the tree.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resultedin condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Those scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

1. it is an offense to God
2. it is disobedience to God
3. it is a transgression
4. it is a sin

These things you have not refuted.

Adam had not done the will of God, but had instead done the will of the woman, his wife, Eve. He was able to do that. He offended God. He disobeyed God. He was able to do that. Adam was guilty of sin against God, of trespassing His commandment. So God had done to him and to his wife, what is written in Gen.3:16-19 and had taken them out from the garden of Eden, away from the tree of life.

Tong
R4060

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
I perceive an underlying current to your post, so I'm addressing it in it's own post.

But, this post must be taken while recalling the prior post that God had me make to you.

Since Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)

Then some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam

In particular God created Adam with a God-like will that they call free will

But then Adam could not have used free will to perform evil disobedience against God

Because God will not use willpower in order to perform evil disobedience against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)

Therefore it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil disobedience against God

(1) The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities

(2) God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature

(3) Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

(4) Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will

(5) Man's free will is a precept of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9)

I do not agree with your line of reasoning there, and so then with your conclusions.

<<<(3) Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.>>>

So that’s how you use free will to mean. Defining it rather differently from what it is commonly understood to mean, that is, freedom to do one’s will. Don’t you even believe that man has freedom to do his own will?

Let me bring you back to Romans 5:12-19. I want to ask you something in verse 14.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Do you know of sin that is not according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam?

Tong
R4061

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Man have a will.

Click to expand...

Man has a will.

The Apostle Paul wrote of man's will and man's work as the work of God in man with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so with Paul I say man does have a will (noun).

THE APOSTLE PAUL CONVEYED THAT MAN HAS A BOND-WILL, NOT A FREE-WILL, BUT A BOND-WILL IN PHILIPPIANS 2:13!

At least you admit that man has a will. So, Adam has a will.

Did Adam had a bond-will before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
He was given freedom to make his choice. We are all living proof of that. However, this is not something that man could boast about. It is not some power given by God to man that others seems to think, a power that overrides the sovereignty of God over them. That is evil pride and is sin. It offends God. But equally, to deny having been given a will is likewise evil. For such is a lie, and offends God as well.

The matter of God’s salvation of fallen man is something that belongs only to God. He is sovereign. He gives mercy to whom He wills to have mercy, according to the counsel of His will and His divine nature.

Click to expand...

"The matter of God’s salvation of fallen man is something that belongs only to God" except salvation for the fallen man cannot happen unless the fallen man chooses God according to free-will philosophy.

Irrelevant to my statement.

Kermos said:
A fallen man, "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Man must be born of God in order to even perceive King Jesus (John 3:3).

Yes, fallen man.

Kermos said:
In your heart you embrace man "was given freedom to make his choice" doctrine of demons which opposes the Sovereignty of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

What do you absolutely know about any man’s heart?

Tong
R4062

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
If so, I think you are not effectively putting that across.

Click to expand...

In this post God had me make to you, I wrote:

The word "choose" is not in 'and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"' (Genesis 2:16-17), so you are adding choice into the Word of God; furthermore, a command of God is obeyed or disobeyed, so an action occurs, not a choice without explicit expression in the command of God, but fruit occurs.

Now, @Tong2020, notice the conceptual similarity between what you expressed to @Taken in your post and what I wrote.

<<<a command of God is obeyed or disobeyed>>>

At least you know that.

Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, mind, and soul.

Obey or disobey. Your choice.

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
The ability of man to make choices is real. Man was given by God, his own will. He can choose according to the counsel of his will, in much everything that involves his life on earth, including things pertaining to the things of the Spirit of God.

Click to expand...

A fleshy man, a natural man (the first state of every mere man) CANNOT receive God unless God bears the man anew for it is written "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

A natural man CANNOT perceive God unless God bears the man anew for the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

A natural man CANNOT choose God for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The “fallen” natural man.

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
It’s just that man, in Adam that is, have disobeyed God’s commandment, in spite of the warning and disaster embodied in the commandment. That disobedience had brought man, judgment (Rom.5:18) resulting to condemnation. They became a slave of sin that rendered their will pertaining to the things of the Spirit of God to be restrained and “dead”. So that, the fallen man is “spiritually dead”, unable to choose God and things pertaining to the Spirit of God.

Click to expand...

In effect, you conveyed that Adam's "will" was the cause of Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; however, as this post in this thread shows, God declares that Adam listened to the voice of his wife as the cause for Adam to eat of the tree (Genesis 3:17), and Paul conveyed Adam did not willingly eat of the tree (Romans 8:20-22).

Adam heeded the voice of his wife Eve. To heed or not to heed.

Paul was not talking about Adam’s eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Romans 8:20-22.

Tong
R4063

Kermos · Aug 19, 2021

Hello @Tong2020,

I have four short consecutively cumulative questions for you.

Question 1) Did Adam know good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22))

Question 2) Did Adam know that it was evil to violate God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: see the answer to Question 1)

Question 3) Did Adam, not knowing good and evil, willingly do evil in violating God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: The Apostle Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly subject creation to futility by eating of the tree of the knowledge good and evil (Romans 8:20-22))

Question 4) What caused Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (Genesis 3:17))

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Any body can quote scriptures. And with reference to those, they say what they say. So, I am not referring to the quoted scriptures as wells without water, but to the rest of what had been written, specially those which constitutes an attack to one’s person which does not have anything to do with the quoted scriptures.

If I quote the whole Bible, then make a claim or two, and you say that what I was saying is false and are like wells without water, would you be said to be saying that against the scriptures I quoted. I don’t think any good mannered and right thinking Christian would say that against the very scriptures he claim to believe as God’s words.

Click to expand...

A Christian heart does not void nor disbelieve the Word of God, including Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Such voidance and disbelief are tantamount to rejection of Who Jesus Christ says He is.

That’s right. However there is such thing as misusing and misunderstanding of scriptures.

Kermos said:
Lord Jesus says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

A person who claims "I chose Jesus" or "I accepted Jesus" does the opposite of that which Jesus says; therefore, such a self-willed person (2 Peter 2;9-10) reviles the majesty of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Not if the one who says that knows that his choosing and accepting Him is the working of God in and on him.

Kermos said:
@Tong2020, if you go back and look at the post then you should see a plethora of scripture in the post to which you referred to as "wells without water".

The post heads off with the citation of "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6).

This means that either you called Jesus' words of Christ being Life "wells without water" or you arrogantly called when I wrote your words are not life "wells without water".

Nope. For I was not referring to those portions of your post which are quotations from the Bible. God knows that. You apparently don’t.

Tong
R4064

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
Hello @Tong2020,

I have four short consecutively cumulative questions for you.

Question 1) Did Adam know good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22))

Question 2) Did Adam know that it was evil to violate God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: see the answer to Question 1)

Question 3) Did Adam, not knowing good and evil, willingly do evil in violating God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: The Apostle Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly subject creation to futility by eating of the tree of the knowledge good and evil (Romans 8:20-22))

Question 4) What caused Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?

(answer hint: "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (Genesis 3:17))

<<<Question 1) Did Adam know good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?>>>

No.

<<<Question 2) Did Adam know that it was evil to violate God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?>>>

No.

<<<Question 3) Did Adam, not knowing good and evil, willingly do evil in violating God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?>>>

Adam, willingly ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in disobedience to God’s command not to eat of it.

<<<The Apostle Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly subject creation to futility by eating of the tree of the knowledge good and evil (Romans 8:20-22)>>>

False! Need a hint?

<<<Question 4) What caused Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?>>>

Eve gave him the fruit to eat. And Adam heeded the voice of his wife.

Tong
R4065

Kermos · Aug 19, 2021

Tong2020 said:
As I said, that such clearly is a case of a choosing by the people of God for themselves to serve. And that point of that passage remains.

God did not say that he gave the people the ability to choose God.

That is the people making a claim to choose God.

Therefore your point is null and void.

The people are NOT God, and the people are not God imparting the people with the ability to choose God, rather that is the people somewhat concurring with Joshua's words of “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him.” (Joshua 24:22).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY ARE "WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES", SO THEY TESTIFIED TO THE CONDEMNATION OF THEMSELVES.

When a person is a "witness for a defendant", then such a one is a proponent for the defendant; in other words, a witness for the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for justification of the defendant.

When a person is a "witness against a defendant", then such a one is an opponent against the defendant; in other words, a witness against the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for condemnation of the defendant.

The truth is there is no free will in the passage.

Tong2020 said:
What those scriptures say remains to affirm what they have chosen. That’t just my point there.

Then it sounds like you are calling Joshua a false prophet because Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

You can't show that they chose God with God's blessing because scripture does not state such.

Tong2020 said:
What those scriptures in Joshua 24:31 remains. And they are clear enough for me. That Israel, did as they have chosen, served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, living up to their choice of God, to serve Him.

Tong
R4048

The people did not fully serve God as is shown in the scripture references below; therefore, the people's choice to serve the Lord is proven to be false because they failed to serve the Lord.

By the way, all the days of Joshua and the elders, that is not the same thing as all the days of those people.

Joshua's death is recorded in Joshua 24:29, and his burial is recorded in Joshua 24:30; therefore, Joshua does not appear to be the author of Joshua 24:31.

You must subtract these words of Joshua "You will not be able to serve the LORD,..." (Joshua 24:19) in order to claim that the people fully served the Lord based upon Joshua 24:31.

And you must add to scripture that the people in attendance when Joshua spoke (Joshua 24:23) put away the foreign gods before scripture records that the later people put away the foreign gods. Again this is explained below.

Joshua 24:31 does not say that the people exclusively served God, in fact, the scripture continues on to reveal that the people in attendance at Joshua's exchange with the people recorded in Joshua 24:1-28 - that the people in attendance did not do as Joshua commanded them.

Regarding when Joshua said "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22):

From the time that Joshua commanded "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) until after Joshua's death (Joshua 24:29) and after Othneil (Judges 3:9) and after Ehud (Judges 3:15) and after Shamgar (Judges 3:31) and after Deborah and Barak (Judges 4-5) and after Gideon (Judges 6-8) and after Tola (Judges 10:1) and after Jair (Judges 10:3), it was not until after all that time that...

After all that time it is written "they put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign gods prior to that time.

Judges 10:16 contains the first occurrence of "foreign gods" after Joshua 24:23.

So there is no record of the people in attendance fulfilling Joshua's command of "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23), and non-performance of the command shows fruit contrary of their choice mentioned by Joshua.

Because the people in attendance did not "put away the foreign gods" (Joshua 24:23), then:

(1) those people proved the word of Joshua true that those people were not able to serve YHWH, "for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) and

(2) those people were not FULLY serving God or

(3) those people were partially serving God and

(4) those people were not loving YHWH God with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their strength (Deuteronomy 6:5) and

(5) a little leaven leavens the whole loaf so

(6) those people's choice is scripturally demonstrated to be invalid.

The truth is no scripture states that man was imparted free will.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Kermos · Aug 19, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Who is such person you are referring to who said “I chose Jesus”?

That is a common refrain among self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) free-willians who revile Majesty on High.

To whom was Jesus saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you"?

All people born of God in all time because Lord Jesus says to Peter, James, John, and Andrew "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37).

To whom was Jesus saying "I chose you out of the world"?

All people born of God in all time because Lord Jesus says to Peter, James, John, and Andrew "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37).

Excuse me, I have to stop here. I Will the rest of your post later……

Tong
R4058

Nancy said:
Hello Kermos,
Your post is way too long and, I REALLY don't want to waste any time on it so let's just say that, we have been/are being saved..HOWEVER you want to put it, it remains the same.
And, BTW-pretty sure the audience in John 15:16 was to the 11 apostles, directly.
God bless and...I'm out of here!

Jesus' disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Kermos · Aug 19, 2021

Tong2020 said:
I assumed you know scriptures. Well,….

Here’s a couple of statements more without specifying scripture.

Through Adam’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation. By Adam’s disobedience many were made sinners.

I will be waiting for you to say your worn out excuse, “@Tong2020, your post without scripture citation was your thoughts.”.

Are you refuting the points I made on what scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil by that? Or have you just ignored them altogether? I thought you will address my points. Well,…

Is that it? Well,…

...snip

Nothing in your post indicates that Adam was in part of a free-will by God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

grumix8 · Aug 19, 2021

You only repeat and repat only valor but none the less yoru wrong there because neither words you have but just your juts saying your right all the time and so on and on.

Kermos · Aug 19, 2021

Tong2020 said:
I do not ignore this truth concerning Israel in this scriptures. Very clear.

Joshua 24:31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

Then it sounds like you are calling Joshua a false prophet because Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

Joshua 24:31 does not show that the people chose God with God's blessing.

The truth is there is no free will in the passage.

Tong2020 said:
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resultedin condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Those scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

1. it is an offense to God
2. it is disobedience to God
3. it is a transgression
4. it is a sin

These things you have not refuted.

Nothing in Romans 5:12-19 indicates that Adam had a free will.

I do not know where you got the impression that I would be refuting Romans 5:12-19.

Tong2020 said:
Adam had not done the will of God, but had instead done the will of the woman, his wife, Eve.

What scripture citation do you have to support your philosophy that you just wrote?

Tong2020 said:
He was able to do that. He offended God. He disobeyed God. He was able to do that.

And not a one of those things indicates that Adam had a free will.

Tong2020 said:
Adam was guilty of sin against God, of trespassing His commandment. So God had done to him and to his wife, what is written in Gen.3:16-19 and had taken them out from the garden of Eden, away from the tree of life.

Tong
R4060

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
God did not say that he gave the people the ability to choose God.

That is the people making a claim to choose God.

Therefore your point is null and void.

The people are NOT God, and the people are not God imparting the people with the ability to choose God, rather that is the people somewhat concurring with Joshua's words of “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him.” (Joshua 24:22).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY ARE "WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES", SO THEY TESTIFIED TO THE CONDEMNATION OF THEMSELVES.

When a person is a "witness for a defendant", then such a one is a proponent for the defendant; in other words, a witness for the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for justification of the defendant.

When a person is a "witness against a defendant", then such a one is an opponent against the defendant; in other words, a witness against the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for condemnation of the defendant.

The truth is there is no free will in the passage.

Then it sounds like you are calling Joshua a false prophet because Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

You can't show that they chose God with God's blessing because scripture does not state such.

The people did not fully serve God as is shown in the scripture references below; therefore, the people's choice to serve the Lord is proven to be false because they failed to serve the Lord.

By the way, all the days of Joshua and the elders, that is not the same thing as all the days of those people.

Joshua's death is recorded in Joshua 24:29, and his burial is recorded in Joshua 24:30; therefore, Joshua does not appear to be the author of Joshua 24:31.

You must subtract these words of Joshua "You will not be able to serve the LORD,..." (Joshua 24:19) in order to claim that the people fully served the Lord based upon Joshua 24:31.

And you must add to scripture that the people in attendance when Joshua spoke (Joshua 24:23) put away the foreign gods before scripture records that the later people put away the foreign gods. Again this is explained below.

Joshua 24:31 does not say that the people exclusively served God, in fact, the scripture continues on to reveal that the people in attendance at Joshua's exchange with the people recorded in Joshua 24:1-28 - that the people in attendance did not do as Joshua commanded them.

Regarding when Joshua said "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22):

From the time that Joshua commanded "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) until after Joshua's death (Joshua 24:29) and after Othneil (Judges 3:9) and after Ehud (Judges 3:15) and after Shamgar (Judges 3:31) and after Deborah and Barak (Judges 4-5) and after Gideon (Judges 6-8) and after Tola (Judges 10:1) and after Jair (Judges 10:3), it was not until after all that time that...

After all that time it is written "they put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign gods prior to that time.

Judges 10:16 contains the first occurrence of "foreign gods" after Joshua 24:23.

So there is no record of the people in attendance fulfilling Joshua's command of "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23), and non-performance of the command shows fruit contrary of their choice mentioned by Joshua.

Because the people in attendance did not "put away the foreign gods" (Joshua 24:23), then:

(1) those people proved the word of Joshua true that those people were not able to serve YHWH, "for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) and

(2) those people were not FULLY serving God or

(3) those people were partially serving God and

(4) those people were not loving YHWH God with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their strength (Deuteronomy 6:5) and

(5) a little leaven leavens the whole loaf so

(6) those people's choice is scripturally demonstrated to be invalid.

The truth is no scripture states that man was imparted free will.

~~Still, no free will written in the creation account~~ (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), ~~with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now"~~ (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

~~Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.~~

No matter what you say to explain away the scriptures in Joshua 24, that the people have not chosen to serve the Lord, what scriptures says remain to be the prevailing truth.

Between what you say and what God says in scriptures, needless to say, I believe the clear and explicit words of God in scriptures.

Tong
R4066

Kermos · Aug 19, 2021

Tong2020 said:
I do not agree with your line of reasoning there, and so then with your conclusions.

Well, let's just take that which you just wrote in order to compare your writing to what God had me write to you. Basically, the following takes the Word of God which God had me proclaim to you, and flip it in order to make it not agree - which you state is your position.

In your heart you think that God uses God's "will" to perform evil disobedience against God.

And in your heart you do not think that God is Creator and that man is creature.

And in your heart you do not think that Adam was flesh.

And in your heart you think that you can choose Jesus.

And in your heart you think that Joshua is a false prophet when he declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.

And in your heart you think that Adam was guilty of disobedience prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Tong2020 said:
<<<(3) Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.>>>

So that’s how you use free will to mean. Defining it rather differently from what it is commonly understood to mean, that is, freedom to do one’s will. Don’t you even believe that man has freedom to do his own will?

To answer your question, no, for the Apostle Paul wrote that a saved by God person's "will" is the work of God in persons with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

The Apostle Jesus says the unsaved person wants to do the desires of the devil with "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

Furthermore, Paul wrote "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

A flesh man, a natural man (the first state of every mere man) CANNOT receive God unless God bears the man anew for it is written "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14); therefore, the flesh man is hopelessly lost without the intervention of God to convert the man into a child of God (Matthew 18:3).

Man has a will.

Man does not have "freedom to do his own will" (your words akin to freewill) because Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21, see also Philippians 2:13).

Tong2020 said:
Let me bring you back to Romans 5:12-19. I want to ask you something in verse 14.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Do you know of sin that is not according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam?

Tong
R4061

To answer your question, a sin that does not result in sin entering into the world, and death through sin, and spreading death to all men (Romans 5:12).

Nonetheless, Paul does not indicate that Adam had a free will in Romans 5:14.

I am including this post in this thread since it references Romans 5 detailing how Paul compared and contrasted Adam to Jesus, and the flesh man precedes the spiritual man for every person

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
That is a common refrain among self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) free-willians who revile Majesty on High.

That’s what you think and say. However, if you think I am such a one, I am not. To the contrary, I am a Christian saved by the grace of God.

Kermos said:
To whom was Jesus saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you"?

To whom was Jesus saying "I chose you out of the world"?

Click to expand...

All people born of God in all time because Lord Jesus says to Peter, James, John, and Andrew "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37).

Misuse of scriptures. Issue on context.

To whom did Jesus say “you did not choose Me, but I chose you"? He said them to the 12 disciples, though not for Judas Iscariot. (John 13)

Tong
R4067

Tong2020 · Aug 19, 2021

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
I do not ignore this truth concerning Israel in this scriptures. Very clear.

Joshua 24:31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

Click to expand...

Then it sounds like you are calling Joshua a false prophet because Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

Joshua 24:31 does not show that the people chose God with God's blessing.

The truth is there is no free will in the passage.

You can think all that as you will. But what is said in Joshua 24:31 is what it says.

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resultedin condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Those scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

1. it is an offense to God
2. it is disobedience to God
3. it is a transgression
4. it is a sin

These things you have not refuted.

Click to expand...

Nothing in Romans 5:12-19 indicates that Adam had a free will.

I do not know where you got the impression that I would be refuting Romans 5:12-19.

I was quoting Romans 5:12-19 to show you that which seem not able to see, that those scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

1. it is an offense to God
2. it is disobedience to God
3. it is a transgression
4. it is a sin

And you have not refuted what I am saying there. You only, with seeming endless repetition, say what you are not able to see, that is, “Nothing in Romans 5:12-19 indicates that Adam had a free will.”

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Adam had not done the will of God, but had instead done the will of the woman, his wife, Eve.

Click to expand...

What scripture citation do you have to support your philosophy that you just wrote?

For one, that’s not a my philosophy. That’s what scriptures teaches, perhaps not to you, but to me.

The will of God for Adam is expressed in Gen.2:16-17. Adam’s disobedient act pf eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is a clear expression of not doing that will of God in that regard.

Eve’s giving the fruit to her husband l Adam, to eat, is a clear expression of the woman’s will for Adam to do. Adam’s heeding the voice of his wife Eve, who gave him the forbidden fruit, to eat, and in eating the fruit, is a clear expression of doing the will of the woman instead of God’s will in that regard. (Gen.3:6).

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
He was able to do that. He offended God. He disobeyed God. He was able to do that.

Click to expand...

And not a one of those things indicates that Adam had a free will.

That’s your opinion. If you don’t see any indication, that’s with you.

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Adam was guilty of sin against God, of trespassing His commandment. So God had done to him and to his wife, what is written in Gen.3:16-19 and had taken them out from the garden of Eden, away from the tree of life.

Click to expand...

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Nothing new that you post.

Haven’t you yet realize what the scriptures in Gen.3:16-19 are, with regards what Eve and Adam had done?

Tong
R4068

Tong2020 · Aug 20, 2021

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
I do not agree with your line of reasoning there, and so then with your conclusions.

Click to expand...

Well, let's just take that which you just wrote in order to compare your writing to what God had me write to you. Basically, the following takes the Word of God which God had me proclaim to you, and flip it in order to make it not agree - which you state is your position.

In your heart you think that God uses God's "will" to perform evil disobedience against God.

And in your heart you do not think that God is Creator and that man is creature.

And in your heart you do not think that Adam was flesh.

And in your heart you think that you can choose Jesus.

And in your heart you think that Joshua is a false prophet when he declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.

And in your heart you think that Adam was guilty of disobedience prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

<<<In your heart you think that God uses God's "will" to perform evil disobedience against God.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think that God uses God's "will" to perform evil disobedience against God.

<<<And in your heart you do not think that God is Creator and that man is creature.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think I do not think…

<<<And in your heart you do not think that Adam was flesh.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think I
do not think that Adam was flesh.

<<<And in your heart you think that you can choose Jesus.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think.

<<<And in your heart you think that Joshua is a false prophet when he declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think about all of that.

If that is the effective and fail safe way of refutation, you have done a good job at it. But too bad, it is not.

I am beginning to think, with all that, and a robotic repetition at that, perhaps you want to speak for me?

Kermos said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<(3) Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.>>>

So that’s how you use free will to mean. Defining it rather differently from what it is commonly understood to mean, that is, freedom to do one’s will. Don’t you even believe that man has freedom to do his own will?

Click to expand...

To answer your question, no, for the Apostle Paul wrote that a saved by God person's "will" is the work of God in persons with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

The Apostle Jesus says the unsaved person wants to do the desires of the devil with "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

Furthermore, Paul wrote "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

A flesh man, a natural man (the first state of every mere man) CANNOT receive God unless God bears the man anew for it is written "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14); therefore, the flesh man is hopelessly lost without the intervention of God to convert the man into a child of God (Matthew 18:3).

Man has a will.

Man does not have "freedom to do his own will" (your words akin to freewill) because Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21, see also Philippians 2:13).

That’s clear. You don’t believe you have freedom to do his own will. Oh yes, I know, only according to your personal definition of free will.

Tong
R4069

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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