A very fair post^. Acknowledges the other person’s view, how you learned something, and explaining your disagreement with it.
Mystery Babylon
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parables are ALWAYS about something literal. I think you don't know when to properly use the word 'spiritual'.
I have been careful to identify spiritual warfare and false ministry together, which is very literal and real, more so than nations continuing to fight again against nations in carnal weapons of warfare.
Such spiritual warfare of ministry is far more dangerous and serious to the believer and the soul, than any threat of the body, and so it is false teachers in Jesus' name, that make real war with the saints. False religions of man that seek only to kill the body, adn are no threat the souls of the elect.
Revelation starts with a multitude of exhortations to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The Spirit did not abruptly stop speaking to us to hear and to understand and to keep what He says, at Chapter 4 or 5 or 6. The Spirit did not them move on to telling the tale of future events of the world's nations, and a one-world gvt leader, that openly uses false religion like some rising Islamist Caliphate, to make carnal warfare against 'Jews' and Christians.
Revelation 6-20 is not a gap and hole in the things that the Spirit says to the churches, that we should not bother reading to keep, but rather is only an intellectual exercise of prophetic dispute. A purely prophetic message of future history, having nothing to do with the preceding generations of Christians, appears to be your view.
And at this point, I don't want to mistake you: Do you reject any notion of the spiritual warfare of false ministry in the Scriptures of Ch. 6-20?
Such warfare has always been the case since Lucifer's fall, and was the instrument used in Adam's transgression, and has been warned against by God to His people since the first covenant made on the mount...
We are warned of false prophets, apostles, christs, and teachers that come to us like great conquerors on whited horses to save our souls for the Lord, when we believed we already were, and then begin to come at us to believe and obey what they say, more than what the Spirit by Scripture says to us.
Jews in the old covenant were warned against the idolatries of the uncircumcised that believed not Jehovah. Christians are not warned against such, because we know they be false gods and are nothing to us. We are warned against them that minister the spirit of error through false doctrine taught int he name of Jesus.
Beasts that rise up against us in the ministry of Christ, not sparing the sheep, in order to make themselves lords over God's heritage.
Uh, you could Google "the five solas" for a more accurate explanation than I could give you but "sola scriptura" is latin for "only scripture " meaning only scripture is authoritative and the source of faith. The other 4 solas are sola fide (only faith), sola gratia (only grace), solus Christus ( only Christ), and Soli Deo Gloria, (only God's glory.)
The Five Solas - Points from the Past that Should Matter to You
These were developed by the theologians of the reformation as points of opposition to the RCC and as the basis of understanding scripture and structuring reformation theology. Unfortunately they fall short, not in assisting our understanding of God, but in their neglect of human relationships with God and each other. They tend to put all the emphasis of redemptive history upon God's purposes which are seen as Soli Deo Gloria (only for His glory), but glory seeking is a human phenomenon. God says plainly that He will not share His glory with another, but You can't really add anything to the glory of God but praise. I would say that soli deo gloria is an imposition of carnal thought upon God, because scripture teaches us that God glorifies His children in the resurrection and redemptive history is about the completion of humanity, not the completion of our understanding of God.
Making God's glory more significant than relationships in the church is the principle excuse for dividing the body of Christ into fragments scattered through thousands of cults and sects.
However, God is not thwarted by the flaws of reformation theology nor the error of carnally derived church dogma. In the world unity comes from common enemies. That's why we have political divides. But Christ unifies us by giving us love for one another in the church, and that obviously fails when fellowship is reduced to things like typing text on a social media platform while arguing over doctrines and interpretations.
Actually the point is remembering the price Jesus paid for His bride until He returns, because the ordinance is not an eternal one, but until He returns, and at the last supper was modeled after a Hebrew betrothal.
Where in scripture do you find that salvation is only through the church. There is no such verse anywhere in scripture. It is a derived doctrine not an explicit one, just like the pretribulation rapture fantasy.
The matter of Old Testament prophecies that have been fulfilled per The New Testament is a whole... different... subject... altogether.
Scripture confirms doctrine of Scripture, and Scripture interprets prophesy of Scripture.
It has nothing... to do with recognizing a symbol first given in the Old Testament that is repeated in The New Testament
So, fulfillment of some prophecies of old in New Testament Scripture has nothing to do with other prophecies of old fulfilled in the Scripture of the book of Revelation, which is a New Testament book written with New Testament Scripture.
Revelation is a New Testament book of prophecy, not an old prophecy book in the New Testament.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand...And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
We cannot 'keep' the things written for a nation and a people, such as bloodline Israelites, that have nothing to do with Christians today, neither would God write to an unbelieving nation and people in Scriptures of the New testament, which are only given by Jesus Christ to His servants and companions in tribulation.
There two old covenant prophecies of Scripture pertaining to the last days and the coming of the Redeemer out of Sion:
The first pertains to the first covenant physical seed, and the last pertains to the new covenant seed of faith.
The first are prophesies of the last days we are in now, where all the promised people of God are concluded in unbelief and cast out from any covenant with Him, when He died ont he cross.
Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
The fact that the God of Israel, who gave those prophecies of old, died on the cross at the hands of them the prophesies were given to, has absolutely everything to do with interpretation of those prophecies in Light of the scriptures now given by the risen God of Israel.
All scattered from Him at the cross. The only ones 'standing' by him on crosses, were unwilling malefactors. Israel after the flesh in part were blinded with ignorant unbelief (as was Saul of Tarsus), and part professed belief in Him as Christ, but were then concluded in unbelief with the blind, because they did not believe Jesus' Word to be that of God: they did not believe they would all forsake Him, and so denied it, and they did not believe He would rise again, and so only came to the tomb to anoint His dead corpse. And so they did not believe Him as God of Israel in the flesh and so accompany Him in trial and the cross.
They next prophecies of old to be fulfilled pertain to a remnant being saved and delivered from the warfare made against them. There will be a remnant of the saints of the Lamb up to the last hour of judgment prior to the Redeemer's coming in the air. (Rev 14:13)
To overlook and even reject the first coming and the new covenant and people of God, while trying to interpret prophecy of Scripture pertaining to His coming and people is to try and interpret the prophecy of the book of Revelation as a concluding prophetic book of the old covenant.
It's to treat Rev 6-18 as a black hole in New Testament Scripture, that allows for no Light of Christ and His people of promise to enter in. It is a an effort to interpret old covenant prophecies being fulfilled without acknowledging the warfare is made with the saints of the Lamb, not with old covenant 'Jews', that no longer exist with God, and bloodline Israelites.
It also allows for contradiction of Scripture in old prophecies that clearly prophecy of two different outcomes when the Redeemer comes: the first being a complete failure by the children of Israel at the Redeemer's coming as a man, and the last a partial failure with a standing remnant at His coming as the risen Saviour.
pretribulation rapture fantasy
But highly believed, even as them that adore the exalted mother of God myth.
It's been my experience that people, in general, prefer a lie to the truth. The truth is always simple but human minds are extremely complex and our imaginations only evil all the time.
We can see by their writings, that they worship the Catholic Church, where the priests and deified saints are the demigods of their religion.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are stuck somewhere in between their Mother above them, and the church leaders just below them.
Nah, the church leaders are above them to, by their traditions trumping Scripture. So, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have all been effectively sidelined and neutered of all real power and authority over the Catholic Religion. But they do come in handy to pacify the conscience and to lure in the unsuspecting.
(P.s. it's not where in Scripture that matters to them most. That is a corrupt Sola Scriptura heresy against their religion. It's what they say that matters most, to them. And they seethe in anger, when we openly reject what they say, when Scripture does not prove it.)
Hey, speak for yourself!
Our imaginations are in error without Scriptural proof. And our imaginations become willful blindness with rejection of Scriptural proof to the contrary.
Those who study to learn the most are the most hard headed, for good reason, and it's not all bad, but when plain Scripture smacks us upised the head, then we must allow the vanity part to be cast out the window.
The full meating in the air will not occur, until the last saint dies in the Lord, and them that are alive and remain are taken up to meet them.
That will not occur until towards the end of the last hour of judgment of God on earth, before the Lord's reaping of His people to receive unto Himself in Rev 14:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I feel pity for RCC apologists. They tend to be very angry because they're in the spot of defending doctrines which obviate or ignore scripture, against people who only accept sound scriptural argument. Trying to prove that error isn't error can only be incessantly frustrating and entirely futile.
It's a shame that the reformation was born in political struggle or we might've had a more sound basis for theological understanding and more accurate biblical hermeneutic.
I'd rather let scripture speak for me and God has said about us what He has said. It's truth.Hey, speak for yourself!
Our imaginations are in error without Scriptural proof. And our imaginations become willful blindness with rejection of Scriptural proof to the contrary.
Those who study to learn the most are the most hard headed, for good reason, and it's not all bad, but when plain Scripture smacks us upised the head, then we must allow the vanity part to be cast out the window.
The full meating in the air will not occur, until the last saint dies in the Lord, and them that are alive and remain are taken up to meet them.
That will not occur until towards the end of the last hour of judgment of God on earth, before the Lord's reaping of His people to receive unto Himself in Rev 14:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 8:21
Jesus clarified this a bit in pointing out that men are evil, not just our imaginations:
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” Luke 11:13
Don't imagine that our imaginations change just because we receive Him.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with YOUR philosophy. You have too much speculation with ideas that do not follow the context of Bible Scripture.
For example, your comparison to those who built the temple is way... off (I speak of the days of Solomon, and thereafter). The children of Israel didn't have the construction knowledge that the pagan Sidonians had, so David and Solomon, and also those who built the 2nd temple after the Babylon captivity used Gentile pagan workers for the help, and even to teach the children of Israel.
1 Kings 5:6
6 Now therefore command thou that they hew me cedar trees out of Lebanon; and my servants shall be with thy servants: and unto thee will I give hire for thy servants according to all that thou shalt appoint: for thou knowest that there is not among us any that can skill to hew timber like unto the Sidonians.
KJV
Ezra 3:6-7
6 From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.
7 They gave money also unto the masons, and to the carpenters; and meat, and drink, and oil, unto them of Zidon, and to them of Tyre, to bring cedar trees from Lebanon to the sea of Joppa, according to the grant that they had of Cyrus king of Persia.
KJV
So your comparison of that to Peter about The New Testament Church, of which Christ Jesus is the Cornerstone, and His Apostles and the prophets are part of the foundation, just does not jive. (See Ephesians 2).
Davy
Well-Known Member
You should make yourself more plain bro, speaking in plain speech instead of trying to be sly with your wordage and those philosophical concepts.
The Book of Revelation of course covers past, present, and future, just as all the Books of God's prophets do. You cannot just throw out an idea like Revelation 6-20 compared to ideas like a gap and such, that's ludicrous.
I reject ALL FALSE MINISTRY, so how's that? And I know HOW to recognize it too, because God's Holy Writ is The Measure of ALL things.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Sorry to say it, but your reasoning is just not right.
What I said confirms that The New Testament is a confirmation of what The Old Testament prophesied.
But not ALL Old Testament prophecies have come to pass yet today.
And when looking at allegories, like the following, which has yet to come to pass, you cannot just say that was fulfilled already, just because it was repeated there in The New Testament...
Luke 23:26-30
26 And as they led Him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'.
KJV
BreadOfLife
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Once again - your claims are not only unbiblical - they are idiotic.I agree. Sola Scriptura is the sole authority on proving anything oral or written is true with God. Any other authority without Scriptural proof is man-made authority separate from God.
Long before any church, including that of the wilderness, there was Scripture given by God to Moses on the mount, and he assured all the people, that the commandments he gave them were from God and not from his own mind. (Numbers 16:28)
Any tradition not confirmed by Scripture is from the mind of men, and is not the Word of God that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Jesus' church is built by Him upon the foundation the apostles laid by Scripture given them by our risen Lord. Your religion is built upon another foundation of another gospel that is not from Scripture of the apostles, but from the minds of foolish men playing apostles.
Using Scripture to prove your position in things of God, is proof that Scripture is necessary to prove your position in things of God.
So long as you use Scripture to try and prove a rejection of Sola Scripture, which is the use of Scripture to prove all things of God, you are practising Sola Scriptura in order to reject it.
Either stop using Scripture to prove your position, and just declare your religion's traditions to be your truth for God and be truly nona-sola-Scriptura, or admit you are in conscience Sola Scriptura, but in mind you also like to believe other fairy tales, like the immaculately-concepted virgin and mother of God, that you call 'Mary', but is in fact a reincarnated Demeter with a Catholic twist.
Sola. Sola. SOLA. SOLA SCRIPTURA!!!!
As I have educated you on several posts now - the Canon of the New Testament is NOT confirmed by Scripture.
It was confirmed by the CATHOLIC CHURCH, who declared it to be inspired.
And your claim that Jesus built His Church solely on what the Apostles WROTE is equally idiotic.
The Bible itself tells us the exact OPPOSITE is true and proves you WRONG . . .
Paul told the Thessalonians that ORAL Tradition was ON PAR with the Written Word:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."
John wrote in NO uncertain terms that NOT everything Jesus taught them was written down:
John 21:25
Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
So, your man-made, 15th century invention of "Sola Scriptura" is a self-defeating doctrine . . .
No, of course not. Not in an instant and the twinkling of an eye, which is when all darkness disappears, and all thoughts and deeds are perfected in Christ.I'd rather let scripture speak for me and God has said about us what He has said. It's truth.
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 8:21
Jesus clarified this a bit in pointing out that men are evil, not just our imaginations:
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” Luke 11:13
Don't imagine that our imaginations change just because we receive Him.
However, we do have the renewing of our minds to be more of His mind, and less of our own. Our past vain imaginations fade away in this life even as our sins that are past.
the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth
That is against the reprobates of Noah's day.
If you then, being evil,
And that is against the unredeemed sinners
And so if our imaginations are still tevil, and our deeds are still evil, then we need to do more than just receive Him. We need to repent of that which He calls evil.
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You were doing good, until the end where you condemned yourself for arguing over doctrines.
Don't be so hard on yourself:
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue...
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue...
Jesus disputed doctrine of God daily with the rulers and priests of His day, and He used Scripture to do it: the Sword of the Spirit.
Don't confuse unedifying worldly debate about things of God from our own minds and opinions, with the edifying Scriptural dispute pertaining to the doctrine of God.
I love what I do here in the Lord, and I thank God for the opportunity to prove myself worthy of Scripture or not. I love the law of the Lord, and I love being corrected to learn it more perfectly. I also love the discipline and challenge of accurately stating my conclusions from Scripture.
Maybe you should be in the praise and worship section?
Paul told the Thessalonians that ORAL Tradition was ON PAR with the Written Word:
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The operative word being 'our' word or epistle: The apostles. whether spoken by us or written by us.
Later he warned against the oral and written traditions what were not from them, but were put forth as from them, as from apostles, which they were not:
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.
And once again, the world could not contain all the books that could be written about Him, and so God had only one book written by Him, in order to proof the other world of books were true or false. And there have been plenty of false ones, especially in the Catholic religion that rejects Jesus' chosen apostles as His only apostles to write His word, doctrine, rule, law and commandments.
I would suggest you go to the Sola Scriptura thread, but you presence here is proof of Mystery Babylon being the spiritual warfare against the Lamb and His saints by false ministry of traditions and commandments of men preached as from apostles of Christ.
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