Mystery Babylon

BreadOfLife · Aug 19, 2021

robert derrick said:
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

The operative word being 'our' word or epistle: The apostles. whether spoken by us or written by us.

Later he warned against the oral and written traditions what were not from them, but were put forth as from them, as from apostles, which they were not:

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.

And once again, the world could not contain all the books that could be written about Him, and so God had only one book written by Him, in order to proof the other world of books were true or false. And there have been plenty of false ones, especially in the Catholic religion that rejects Jesus' chosen apostles as His only apostles to write His word, doctrine, rule, law and commandments.

I would suggest you go to the Sola Scriptura thread, but you presence here is proof of Mystery Babylon being the spiritual warfare against the Lamb and His saints by false ministry of traditions and commandments of men preached as from apostles of Christ.

WRONG again.

First of all - I already PROVED to you that Apostolic Authority is successive.
In Acts 1, the surviving Apostles got together to to elect a replacement for Judas. In Peter's speech, he quotes the Psalms when he says:
Acts 1:20
"Let another take his office."

The Greek word used here for "office" is "Episkopay" or "Bishopric". The Bishops that the apostles ordained to succeed them did just that: They SUCCEEDED the Apostles.

This is why the the Bishops, almost 400 years later had the God-given Authority to declare the Canon of the New Testament that YOU and every other Protestant adheres to.

Jesus told the Apostles:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

The Holy Spirit guided the Bishops to the TRUTH of the Canon of Scripture at the Council of Rome in 382, where they publicly declared it.
- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).

- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.

- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.

- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

And, as for what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians aboiut the Authority of Oral Tradition - there is NO expiration date on 2 Thess. 2:15 . . .

BreadOfLife · Aug 19, 2021

robert derrick said:
And once again, the world could not contain all the books that could be written about Him, and so God had only one book written by Him, in order to proof the other world of books were true or false. And there have been plenty of false ones, especially in the Catholic religion that rejects Jesus' chosen apostles as His only apostles to write His word, doctrine, rule, law and commandments.

I would suggest you go to the Sola Scriptura thread, but you presence here is proof of Mystery Babylon being the spiritual warfare against the Lamb and His saints by false ministry of traditions and commandments of men preached as from apostles of Christ.

This is the dumbest thing I've EVER read regarding John 21:25.

The point John is making is that NOT everything that Jesus did or taught could be written about.
He doesn't even IMPLY what you are saying . . .

robert derrick · Aug 19, 2021

Davy said:
Sorry to say it, but your reasoning is just not right.

What I said confirms that The New Testament is a confirmation of what The Old Testament prophesied.

But not ALL Old Testament prophecies have come to pass yet today.

And when looking at allegories, like the following, which has yet to come to pass, you cannot just say that was fulfilled already, just because it was repeated there in The New Testament...

Luke 23:26-30
26 And as they led Him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'.
KJV

You seem to be misreading me. I never said all prophecy has been already fulfilled. Afterall, Revelation is a book of prophecy yet to be fulfilled.

I say however that Revelation is not a book of symbolic prophecy about old prophecy fulfilled according to old covenant understanding, nor with an old covenant physical seed of promise.

It is prophecy to come, revealed to us, the saints of Christ. Revelation is not prophecy to them that read only Moses of old. The final prophecies yet to be fulfilled are to be fulfilled in us: the New Testament believers and children of promise, the saints of the Lamb.

We are the ones to be tried and purified this time before the Redeemer's coming. We being the grafted in and grafted in again believers.

You are the object of the dragon's hatred, accusation, and warfare. When you read those things of Revelation as prophecy to us, think of yourself as an Israelite of old reading prophecy of Daniel about the Promised Redeemer's coming, with the trying and purifying and failure of many called to be Israel of God.

The Jews of old already had their end days prophecy fulfilled, with the Redeemer coming to them first. Next it will be our turn to be tried, and the dragon is raising up a beast just for you, who is a Jew inwardly, and a saint of the Lamb in natural body.

With this thinking I believe Revelation is full of teachings of spiritual warfare through false ministry to destroy the faith of the saints:

And so, is that true for any of Revelation Ch. 6-18?

I.e. the first beast rises up through the usurped authority of the dragon, to minister his spiritual wickedness in high places, making war with the saints to overthrow their faith, if possible...

Hey, maybe I'm that beast rising up. The point is that beast will come for you, not for a so-called Jew after the flesh, that is still blind in unbelief. Why would the dragon attack his own and drive his own to the Light of Jesus Christ??

Exactly how does an unbeliever, that firmly rejects Jesus as the Christ, be driven to convert to the faith of Jesus on pain of death, if he does??

The final last days prophecies of trial of the people of God, before His coming, are not for them that believe not, but for them that believe, that they may be tried and purified or tried and fail to keep the faith: not the faith of the so-called Jews in the Jews religion, but the faith of the Lamb in the body of Christ:

..prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

No prophesy of Scripture for warning and instruction of God for doctrine is for the unbeliever, nor does it pertain to them that believe not.

If Rev 6-18 is only about the so-called Jews that believe not, then Scripture is broken, because prophecy of Scripture in Ch 6-18 would be written to serve as warning and instruction to them that believe not.

That would be a black hole in prophecy of Scripture: prophesying to unbelievers to warn and serve them in their unbelief.

robert derrick · Aug 19, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
This is the dumbest thing I've EVER read regarding John 21:25.

The point John is making is that NOT everything that Jesus did or taught could be written about.
He doesn't even IMPLY what you are saying . . .

Being called dumb with Scripture by someone that rejects Scripture as the sole authority of God is dumber than dumb.

Why do you go to Scripture to prove what you are saying? Since what you say is Scripture is not necessary to prove what you say is true or not?

I take it back. You are no longer useful to me here. Go to the Sola Scriptura thread, write a book, call it God, and add it to the trash heap of folly in the world.

BreadOfLife · Aug 19, 2021

robert derrick said:
Being called dumb with Scripture by someone that rejects Scripture as the sole authority of God is dumber than dumb.
Why do you go to Scripture to prove what you are saying? Since what you say is Scripture is not necessary to prove what you say is true or not?
I take it back. You are no longer useful to me here. Go to the Sola Scriptura thread, write a book, call it God, and add it to the trash heap of folly in the world.

No - claiming that the Bible is our "SOLE" Authority - when the Bible itself rejects this idea is dumber than dumb.

Look - I get it. you're tired of being exposed by me so you're cutting and running. That's fine.
Just don't delude yourself as to the reason . . .

robert derrick · Aug 19, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
No - claiming that the Bible is our "SOLE" Authority - when the Bible itself rejects this idea is dumber than dumb.

Look - I get it. you're tired of being exposed by me so you're cutting and running. That's fine.
Just don't delude yourself as to the reason . . .[/QUOTE
I do keep learning from you how not to think, but I honestly think you ought do so on a thread that I made just for you: Sola Scriptura.

So, go there, and I'll see you there. And maybe you'll answer the question you never answered:

Why does some that rejects Sola Scriptura ever go to Scripture to prove their rejection is true?

Curtis · Aug 20, 2021

Davy said:
Mystery Babylon of Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation is about a "great city", as written...

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

It is linked to the harlot of Revelaiton 17, which is then linked to the ten horns and seven heads.

The ten horns = ten kings that rule one hour with the beast (king) per Rev.17.

Per Rev.11, the "great city" where God's two witnesses are killed by the beast, is where Lord Jesus was crucified. That means JERUSALEM.

Mystery Babylon of Revelation = JERUSALEM for the end of this world. THAT... is where the coming false-Messiah is going to sit in a rebuilt Jewish temple and proclaim himself as God over all the world (2 Thessalonians 2).

And that’s the city Jesus saves from destruction by Arab armies that surrounded it, and wipes them out, then makes His home, in Zechariah 14.

That would be kinda contradictory, to destroy the city He will save from destruction, don’t ya think?

BreadOfLife · Aug 20, 2021

robert derrick said:
I do keep learning from you how not to think, but I honestly think you ought do so on a thread that I made just for you: Sola Scriptura.

So, go there, and I'll see you there. And maybe you'll answer the question you never answered:

Why does some that rejects Sola Scriptura ever go to Scripture to prove their rejection is true?

I ALREADY answered that question several posts back.

The answer once again, is:
Because Scripture is Authoritative. It's just not our "SOLE" Authority, Einstein - and you have YET to show me where Scripture makes this claim about itself. CAN you do that?

Now - if you could just have a conversation where you respond honestly without injecting your LIES - then I'll more than happy to prove you wrong on whichever thread you want me to go.

Marymog · Aug 20, 2021

robert derrick said:
we have our 27 books of the New Testament because of oral tradition

We have the Scriptures, because God gave it to His prophets and apostles to write for us.

There were many oral traditions in the world, before the first Scripture was written into the world. When God began having Scripture written, is when God began confirming in writing what oral traditions were true of Him.

It is the same today: we now have all the Scriptures God gave His prophets and apostles to be written into the world, and all traditions are now judged by those Scriptures to be true of Him or not.

Anything taught as truth of God, that is not proven by Scripture, is the false teaching of false prophets and apostles, who make up their own things out of their own minds to be believed as Scripture.

The Church decided what was canonical and not canonical.

The leaders of the church did, and God helped them. They are the blessing. Not the problem. The problem is leaders that teach traditions as truth of God and are not proven by Scripture of God.

The Scriptures were written into the world by God's prophets and apostles, and were 'canonized' into one Book, with God's help by His church leaders. The 'canonizers' did not write Scripture, but only confirmed what was written by His prophets and apostles: Scripture inspired of God.

Scripture does not tell us what is Scripture. Oral tradition does.

Scripture does not tell us what is Scripture. Scripture proves what is truth of God. Oral traditions do not tell us what Scripture is. Scripture tells us what oral traditions are true of God.

The Scriptures were all written by prophets and apostles of God. Men with help of God later canonized them into one book, called the Bible.

When men teach any tradition, rule, law, doctrine of God, it must be proven by Scripture, or it is to be rejected as true of God.

Sola Scriptura is not the rejection of all things said and written, that are not specifically written in the Bible. Sola Scriptura is the rejection of any such things that Scripture does not prove as true of God.

Sola Scriptura is the sole authority for proving truth of God. If anything outside the Bible is anything true with God, it is because it is confirmed as such by Scripture.

Oral traditions proved by Scripture, true. Oral traditions not proved by Scripture, not.

Conclusion: if anything is taught for doctrine of God, it must be proven by Scripture, else it is false doctrine. People can believe and practise it all they want, but they are not believing the truth, nor are they serving God.

Sola Scriptura keeps us on the straight and the narrow. Anything to the left or right, taken away from or added to, is error.

Anyone that rejects Sola Scriptura, who then relies on Scripture to prove their traditions as truth of God, are being self-contradictory.

Anyone who truly rejects Sola Scriptura will reject the need for Scripture to prove their traditions, which they count as truth of God without Scripture needing to prove it.

I.e. Buddhists don't need Biblical Scripture. They have their own books to believe and practise. Some things may be true of God, if Scripture shows it, and the rest is stuff of man and not true of God.

The error of the Catholic religion is to claim religion from the God of the Bible, and then act like Buddhists with their own books that Scripture does not show to be true of the God of the Bible. I have more respect for Buddhists that don't claim any Biblical authority, than for those who claim it, and then set it aside for their own traditions and teachings.

Hope this helps answer...Robert

No Robert. Your answer doesn't help. It is very confusing.

We agree that the leaders of the church, with the help of God, decided what was canonical or what books were to be in our bible. This means that you trusted men, guided by the Holy Spirit, to decide what books were inspired. Right?

But you don't trust those same men for doctrine of God? You don't trust them to give you good/true doctrine proven by Scripture? How do you KNOW if you are "believing the truth"? You trust yourself to know the truth?

Curious Mary

robert derrick · Aug 20, 2021

Marymog said:
No Robert. Your answer doesn't help. It is very confusing.

We agree that the leaders of the church, with the help of God, decided what was canonical or what books were to be in our bible. This means that you trusted men, guided by the Holy Spirit, to decide what books were inspired. Right?

But you don't trust those same men for doctrine of God? You don't trust them to give you good/true doctrine proven by Scripture? How do you KNOW if you are "believing the truth"? You trust yourself to know the truth?

Curious Mary

We agree that the leaders of the church, with the help of God, decided what was canonical or what books were to be in our bible. This means that you trusted men, guided by the Holy Spirit, to decide what books were inspired. Right?

Right and wrong. We agree such men were guided by God and we thank God for it. However, it is God I trust that had men do so, and so I trust the Bible I have as all the Scriptures of God. I do not trust the men that did so, except in that their work was led by God.

But you don't trust those same men for doctrine of God?

Sola Scriptura is willing and ready of mind to hear anyone of faith, and then verifies it as true by Scripture.

I don't trust in men and their teachings of Scripture, but only in God and His Scripture:

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

You don't trust them to give you good/true doctrine proven by Scripture?

When proven by Scripture I honor and thank them for being good teachers of Scripture.

How do you KNOW if you are "believing the truth"?

How do you know if you are?

Sola Scriptura says if we are not searching the Scriptures to confirm what we believe, and especially what others are teaching us, then we are foolish at best, and in danger of self-destruction in the faith at worst.

You trust yourself to know the truth?

I trust the Spirit of truth to guide me into all truth of Scripture, so long as I remain honestly guided and corrected by Scripture.

I trust myself with God's help to judge myself rightly according to Scripture, as I do with all people:

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

False leaders will not stand in our place in the judgment of God, because we followed them into a ditch.

michaelvpardo · Aug 20, 2021

robert derrick said:
No, of course not. Not in an instant and the twinkling of an eye, which is when all darkness disappears, and all thoughts and deeds are perfected in Christ.

However, we do have the renewing of our minds to be more of His mind, and less of our own. Our past vain imaginations fade away in this life even as our sins that are past.

the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth

That is against the reprobates of Noah's day.

If you then, being evil,

And that is against the unredeemed sinners

And so if our imaginations are still tevil, and our deeds are still evil, then we need to do more than just receive Him. We need to repent of that which He calls evil.

I understand now. You're selective in what parts of scripture you choose to believe. That's okay, that's how the world thinks, but the verse I quoted was after the flood and only applied to Noah and his descendants (God is not a forgetful old man.)

michaelvpardo · Aug 20, 2021

robert derrick said:
You were doing good, until the end where you condemned yourself for arguing over doctrines.

Don't be so hard on yourself:

And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue...

And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue...

Jesus disputed doctrine of God daily with the rulers and priests of His day, and He used Scripture to do it: the Sword of the Spirit.

Don't confuse unedifying worldly debate about things of God from our own minds and opinions, with the edifying Scriptural dispute pertaining to the doctrine of God.

I love what I do here in the Lord, and I thank God for the opportunity to prove myself worthy of Scripture or not. I love the law of the Lord, and I love being corrected to learn it more perfectly. I also love the discipline and challenge of accurately stating my conclusions from Scripture.

Maybe you should be in the praise and worship section?

Troll

robert derrick · Aug 20, 2021

michaelvpardo said:
Troll

Troll: A person who comes onto a debate forum posing as a contributor, and then condemns any that debate it.

In any case, you did have a good point:

Making God's glory more significant than relationships in the church is the principle excuse for dividing the body of Christ into fragments scattered through thousands of cults and sects.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was...I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth...And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. (John 17)

The true glory of God is to have made one people for Himself to love another and be one, even as The Father and the Son are. The glory ios accomplished believing from the heart and obeying His Word preached in the glorious gospel of the Blessed God by His glorious power working in them and through them.

The glory and power of God is to create and have one people on earth in natural bodies, fulfilling the royal law of loving our neighbors as ourselves, to be glorified in Him as His resurrected spiritual body forever.

False doctrine can divide the body into different parts of assembly, but it can't divide the people from loving one another as ourselves, if we love God and ourselves in Christ first.

michaelvpardo · Aug 20, 2021

robert derrick said:
Troll: A person who comes onto a debate forum posing as a contributor, and then condemns any that debate it.

In any case, you did have a good point:

Making God's glory more significant than relationships in the church is the principle excuse for dividing the body of Christ into fragments scattered through thousands of cults and sects.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was...I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth...And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. (John 17)

The true glory of God is to have made one people for Himself to love another and be one, even as The Father and the Son are. The glory ios accomplished believing from the heart and obeying His Word preached in the glorious gospel of the Blessed God by His glorious power working in them and through them.

The glory and power of God is to create and have one people on earth in natural bodies, fulfilling the royal law of loving our neighbors as ourselves, to be glorified in Him as His resurrected spiritual body forever.

False doctrine can divide the body into different parts of assembly, but it can't divide the people from loving one another as ourselves, if we love God and ourselves in Christ first.

Troll: a person who enters on line conversation to start argument without any real understanding of the content. Good try though to justify your behavior.

robert derrick · Aug 20, 2021

michaelvpardo said:
I understand now. You're selective in what parts of scripture you choose to believe. That's okay, that's how the world thinks, but the verse I quoted was after the flood and only applied to Noah and his descendants (God is not a forgetful old man.)

So Noah was a man that found grace with God, because his imagination was evil.

And his descendants were not Abraham, nor his promised seed fulfilled in Christ.

for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth...

Youthful imaginations along with youthful lusts are to be put away from us by faith and obedience in Christ.

People can have evil imaginations all they want. They can even just think all they have is evil imagination.

God doesn't agree that His people are like that. My mind is renewed from the evil imaginations and sins of my past, that I had in abundance.

robert derrick · Aug 20, 2021

michaelvpardo said:
Troll: a person who enters on line conversation to start argument without any real understanding of the content. Good try though to justify your behavior.

An argument is started by posting something on line, knowing that anyone is free to dispute it.

You're not a troll. You're a spoiled sport that doesn't like being challenged or corrected.

michaelvpardo · Aug 20, 2021

robert derrick said:
So Noah was a man that found grace with God, because his imagination was evil.

And his descendants were not Abraham, nor his promised seed fulfilled in Christ.

for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth...

Youthful imaginations along with youthful lusts are to be put away from us by faith and obedience in Christ.

People can have evil imaginations all they want. They can even just think all they have is evil imagination.

God doesn't agree that His people are like that. My mind is renewed from the evil imaginations and sins of my past, that I had in abundance.

Remedial thinking. Noah found grace. He wasn't a "good" man. The scripture doesn't give a full account of Noah's life, but does take the time to tell us that after the flood he chose to make a batch of wine and got drunk.
You'll never be justified before God until you recognize your own iniquity and "there is no one good but God." I didn't make that up, God said it in the person of His Son.
Get over yourself and you'll grow in Christ.
Sanctification is the life long process of recognizing and confessing sin. If you think that you've been perfected, well, there are medications for that.

michaelvpardo · Aug 20, 2021

robert derrick said:
An argument is started by posting something on line, knowing that anyone is free to dispute it.

You're not a troll. You're a spoiled sport that doesn't like being challenged or corrected.

Possibly, but you'd actually need to understand scripture to correct anyone and I'm just not discerning that here. I'm truly sorry that God has spoiled me by teaching me and protecting me from every evil. I'll tell Him that you consider Him a bad Father. Good luck with that.

michaelvpardo · Aug 20, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
This is the dumbest thing I've EVER read regarding John 21:25.

The point John is making is that NOT everything that Jesus did or taught could be written about.
He doesn't even IMPLY what you are saying . . .

Hi again, BOL. Glad to see that insult is still alive and well in the church. We tend to be good at that, but it never strengthens an argument.
Does the 13th chapter of Corinthians still apply to the RCC or do apologists have special exemption. I hope that there is an exemption because, technically, I'm still Roman Catholic (it says so on my dog tags). Just the same, I'm attempting to be less acerbic.

robert derrick · Aug 20, 2021

michaelvpardo said:
Possibly, but you'd actually need to understand scripture to correct anyone and I'm just not discerning that here. I'm truly sorry that God has spoiled me by teaching me and protecting me from every evil. I'll tell Him that you consider Him a bad Father. Good luck with that.

by teaching me and protecting me from every evil.

You certainly don't mean from every evil imagination?

The truth is always simple but human minds are extremely complex and our imaginations only evil all the time.

Also, you are quoting from before the flood, not after. But I still stand by the correction to your judgment of all men.

Now, if you were suggesting that there are still reprobates in the world as there was before the flood, then I certainly do not disagree.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient...They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

These are them that once knew God. Believers. Returning to the evil imaginations that once had, and now become far worse in them. (2 Peter 2:20)

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