Lot...A Righteous Man???

whirlwind · Mar 13, 2011

When having a discussion with an atheist...he said, "oh yeah...well what about Lot, old righteous Lot? God killed innocent children and yet Lot live when he offered his daughters to perverts and then had sex with his daughters." He had a legitimate question. Lot has never seemed to be a righteous man or a man of God to me and yet it is written that he was righteous....

2 Peter 2:6-9 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Where it is stated that Lot was "righteous" that doesn't mean he was holy, or that he was perfect, or that he was even considered a good man which some of us are or strive to be even though we are sinners. We clearly see that he was none of those things because of his actions. But, he was righteous and that can mean....

Righteous ~ in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them. ~ Blue Letter Bible, Lexicon.

Is that the proper definition of righteous for Lot? It seems to be for being "in the gate" Biblically means Lot sat in judgment of the others, legally he held court in Sodom.

Genesis 19:1-2 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

.
.

belantos · Mar 13, 2011

Is there a definition for "righteous" for everyone in the bible? You cannot seriously suggest that. A righteous person is the one who is right with God. A sinner is a sinner, not a righteous. If you consider yourself a sinner, it is because your life is characterised by sin.

In ancient time if you welcomed sojourners into your house you became responsible to take care of them, to protect them. It would have been extremely shameful for Lot, and against divine law, to have offered his visitors to the mob. It is hard to understand this with a Western mind when in the West no such values exist.

whirlwind · Mar 13, 2011

belantos said:
Is there a definition for "righteous" for everyone in the bible? You cannot seriously suggest that. A righteous person is the one who is right with God. A sinner is a sinner, not a righteous. If you consider yourself a sinner, it is because your life is characterised by sin.

In ancient time if you welcomed sojourners into your house you became responsible to take care of them, to protect them. It would have been extremely shameful for Lot, and against divine law, to have offered his visitors to the mob. It is hard to understand this with a Western mind when in the West no such values exist.

I don't see how anyone can seriously consider Lot a righteous man as we think of righteousness.

The idea of offering one's daughters is ludicrous...in whatever part of the world one lives in. He was SUPPOSED to be a child of God. Do you see the divine law saying it's okay...let your daughters get raped so you aren't shamed? Poor, poor Lot being shamed like that.

.

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Mar 16, 2011

You missed the trick word in your scripture quotation. The word is 'JUST'.

What does it mean to be JUSTIFIED before God? Is it the same as righteous? Apparently not, at least in this instance or at least in man's definition of 'righteous'.

Righteousness as a word and as a state of being can be defined many different ways by men. One man's banquet is another man's poison as it were. What about God? The Bible seems to indicate that God works on an entirely different standard with regard to righteousness or justification than humans do.

Whatever it means it was good enough to get ol' Lot out of town before the hammer came down. If it was good enough for Lot, it's good enough for me.

To answer those who use this particular incident to poke holes in the gospel message, I may say that they would not accept any answer, logical or otherwise. They have chosen arrogance instead of humility before God and they will never see Him if they continue in it.

whirlwind · Mar 16, 2011

[email protected] said:
You missed the trick word in your scripture quotation. The word is 'JUST'.

What does it mean to be JUSTIFIED before God? Is it the same as righteous? Apparently not, at least in this instance or at least in man's definition of 'righteous'.

Righteousness as a word and as a state of being can be defined many different ways by men. One man's banquet is another man's poison as it were. What about God? The Bible seems to indicate that God works on an entirely different standard with regard to righteousness or justification than humans do.

Whatever it means it was good enough to get ol' Lot out of town before the hammer came down. If it was good enough for Lot, it's good enough for me.

To answer those who use this particular incident to poke holes in the gospel message, I may say that they would not accept any answer, logical or otherwise. They have chosen arrogance instead of humility before God and they will never see Him if they continue in it.

The phrase "just Lot" doesn't mean he was justified by God. As the word righteous carries the meaning of judicial...so does just:

From the Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Just:

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

2) innocent, faultless, guiltless

3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

a) only Christ truly

4) approved of or acceptable of God

5) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them

The actions of Lot show that he was NOT a just or righteous man as in...a good man. He was just and righteous in the sense of judicial work.

.

Alethos · Mar 17, 2011

[email protected] said:
You missed the trick word in your scripture quotation. The word is 'JUST'.

What does it mean to be JUSTIFIED before God? Is it the same as righteous? Apparently not, at least in this instance or at least in man's definition of 'righteous'.

Righteousness as a word and as a state of being can be defined many different ways by men. One man's banquet is another man's poison as it were. What about God? The Bible seems to indicate that God works on an entirely different standard with regard to righteousness or justification than humans do.

Whatever it means it was good enough to get ol' Lot out of town before the hammer came down. If it was good enough for Lot, it's good enough for me.

To answer those who use this particular incident to poke holes in the gospel message, I may say that they would not accept any answer, logical or otherwise. They have chosen arrogance instead of humility before God and they will never see Him if they continue in it.

I commend you for your post.

Lot is one of the most rewarding studies because of the reasons already stated above. Yes, he choose the plans nearest to Sodom (like us), Yes, he sat at the gates and traded with its people (like us). His wife and daughters clearly ensnared in its wicked offerings (maybe like some of us?). Have we been intoxicated and acted foolishly?

However,

GOD RESCUED LOT, A RIGHTEOUS MAN, WHO WAS DISTRESSED BY THE FILTHY LIVES OF LAWLESS MEN:

God is teaching us two examples:

1. God will not only punish the wicked.

2. He will also extricate the righteous from their judgment and He will destroy the ungodly that surround them.

This example in 2 Peter 2, as well as the example of Noah (v 5), assured Peter's faithful readers that God would not lose them in the mass of sinners whom He would judge. Remember the destruction of Jerusalem was going to destroy the unbelieving Jews living there in 70 AD.

But the primary warning to us is one of deliverance and punishment of the wicked at the return of Christ.

I will ask you the question:

Would you like to see your name written there 2 Peter 2:7-8? Yes / No

Lot was a righteous man in the sight of God...is undeniable (cp Gen 18:21; Gen 19:1, Gen 19:9), although his life, seen simply, gives very little evidence of that fact.

For those who cast the first stone let’s see how your life presents when the book of lives is opened? I for one am not looking forward to seeing mine!

Let’s hope and pray your name is still there!

Mercy & Alethos (truth)

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Mar 17, 2011

Truth said:
I will ask you the question:

Would you like to see your name written there 2 Peter 2:7-8? Yes / No
[/size]

Your question doesn't seem to match the quotation, unless you are asking if I/we are numbered among those whose soul is vexed by the wickedness around us. [IT IS.]

I suspect, like Lot, many of us have become desensitized to it. It's a mental defence I understand. Either we participate in it or we become mentally unbalanced ourselves.

Some years ago I attended seminary in the center of a large northern city. On a summer's eve when our apartment windows were open, the breezes would carry to us the sound of loud angry voices speaking filthy words and an occasional gun shot. It was not a pleasant thing to have entering into your first home with your wife. I despised the place for that and other things. One got numb to it after a while. As the years went by we were never able to look back on it and laugh. It left a scar.

As an aside, I like the way your scripture quotation has a popup with the full text. Didn't know we could do that.

Alethos · Mar 17, 2011

[email protected] said:
Your question doesn't seem to match the quotation, unless you are asking if I/we are numbered among those whose soul is vexed by the wickedness around us. [IT IS.]

I suspect, like Lot, many of us have become desensitized to it. It's a mental defence I understand. Either we participate in it or we become mentally unbalanced ourselves.

Some years ago I attended seminary in the center of a large northern city. On a summer's eve when our apartment windows were open, the breezes would carry to us the sound of loud angry voices speaking filthy words and an occasional gun shot. It was not a pleasant thing to have entering into your first home with your wife. I despised the place for that and other things. One got numb to it after a while. As the years went by we were never able to look back on it and laugh. It left a scar.

As an aside, I like the way your scripture quotation has a popup with the full text. Didn't know we could do that.

Yes you read correctly.

And that the 2 Book of Peter speaks to the Second Key of the Kingdom.

Key 1 = How we must enter into the sufferings of Jesus Christ before we can gain access to the second Key
Key 2 = Yahweh's Glory in all its brightness.

Did you know in the 1 Epistle of Peter suffering is referred to 22 times! And none in his 2nd Epistle...because once someone like Lot and Noah have entered Glory there is no suffering. But they are yet to receive their reward.

Hebrews 11:7
Hebrews 11:13
Hebrews 11:39

A study of the keys of the Kingdom is amazing I highly recommend you dig there.

Alethos

aspen · Mar 17, 2011

Lot offered his daughters to be raped by a mob and he was never confronted about it or felt an once of guilt according to the scriptures. In fact, his act was treated as a good viable option and the mob was simply being unreasonable by refusing. This is totally wrong-minded and cannot be viewed as a story about morality. It is a story about God "gutting it out".."slogging through the depravity of humanity" and beginning a good work - our redemption.

The story of Lot is about God's sovereignty not Lot's morality. Lot is certainly not an example - instead, God was just getting started in the work of the redemption of humanity - He had to start somewhere. Same with Noah, before - the scripture truthfully says that he was the most righteous of his generation (that could mean anything - look at his generation) and that is why God choose him to demonstrate His omnipotence.

Alethos · Mar 17, 2011

aspen said:
Lot offered his daughters to be raped by a mob and he was never confronted about it or felt an once of guilt according to the scriptures. In fact, his act was treated as a good viable option and the mob was simply being unreasonable by refusing. This is totally wrong-minded and cannot be viewed as a story about morality. It is a story about God "gutting it out".."slogging through the depravity of humanity" and beginning a good work - our redemption.

The story of Lot is about God's sovereignty not Lot's morality. Lot is certainly not an example - instead, God was just getting started in the work of the redemption of humanity - He had to start somewhere. Same with Noah, before - the scripture truthfully says that he was the most righteous of his generation (that could mean anything - look at his generation) and that is why God choose him to demonstrate His omnipotence.

I agree with your comments. The fact remains that Lot and Noah are numbered among the faithful. If you are implying Lot was totally "immoral", which I am sure you are not, else how could he be named so in 2 Peter 2 as an example of faith?

This would contradict the righteousness of God.

I acknowledge the Father will ALWAYS be sovereign and this is NEVER questioned, at all, ever. You beautifully credit the Glory to the Father (well done - we all should follow your example) however, your comments would be more balanced to include the divine insight/assessment of Lot & Noah as recorded in the scripture, being named "righteous" men.

Who are we to disagree with the Holy Writ?

Alethos

ps. Often we find two extremes...somewhere in the middle is about right!

aspen · Mar 17, 2011

Truth said:
I agree with your comments. The fact remains that Lot and Noah are numbered among the faithful. If you are implying Lot was totally "immoral", which I am sure you are not, else how could he be named so in 2 Peter 2 as an example of faith?

This would contradict the righteousness of God.

I acknowledge the Father will ALWAYS be sovereign and this is NEVER questioned, at all, ever. You beautifully credit the Glory to the Father (well done - we all should follow your example) however, your comments would be more balanced to include the divine insight/assessment of Lot & Noah as recorded in the scripture, being named "righteous" men.

Who are we to disagree with the Holy Writ?

Alethos

ps. Often we find two extremes...somewhere in the middle is about right!

You are right - I agree.

whirlwind · Mar 18, 2011

Truth said:
I agree with your comments. The fact remains that Lot and Noah are numbered among the faithful. If you are implying Lot was totally "immoral", which I am sure you are not, else how could he be named so in 2 Peter 2 as an example of faith?

This would contradict the righteousness of God.

I acknowledge the Father will ALWAYS be sovereign and this is NEVER questioned, at all, ever. You beautifully credit the Glory to the Father (well done - we all should follow your example) however, your comments would be more balanced to include the divine insight/assessment of Lot & Noah as recorded in the scripture, being named "righteous" men.

Who are we to disagree with the Holy Writ?

Alethos

ps. Often we find two extremes...somewhere in the middle is about right!

We should never disagree with the Holy Writ but...we should understand what is written.

Lot was not considered a righteous or just man as we consider those words to mean. They referred to his position as a judge. His own actions define his "righteousness."

Matthew 7:19-21 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

,

studythebible · Apr 2, 2011

Very interesting question!

Here is some information i come accross on the subject and thought i would share it

Why

Did Lot Offer His Daughters to an Angry Mob?

[sup]

[/sup]In Genesis chapter 19, we find the account of what happened when God sent two materialized angels to Sodom. Lot insisted that the visitors stay in his home. That night, however, a mob of men from the city surrounded the house and demanded that the visitors be brought out to them for immoral purposes. Lot tried to reason with the mob, but to no avail. Seeking to protect his guests, Lot said: “Please, my brothers, do not act badly. Please, here I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with a man. Please, let me bring them out to you. Then do to them as is good in your eyes. Only to these men do not do a thing, because that is why they have come under the shadow of my roof.” The mob would not listen and almost broke down the door. Finally, the angelic visitors struck that frenzied crowd with blindness.—Genesis 19:1-11.

[sup]

[/sup] Understandably, this account has raised questions in the mind of some. They wonder: ‘How could Lot seek to protect his guests by offering his daughters to a lustful mob? Did he not act improperly, even cowardly?’ In view of this account, why would God inspire Peter to call Lot a “righteous man”? Did Lot act with God’s approval? (2 Peter 2:7, 8) Let us reason on this matter so that we do not draw the wrong conclusion.

[sup]

[/sup] To begin with, it should be noted that rather than condoning or condemning Lot’s actions, the Bible simply reports what took place. The Bible also does not tell us what Lot was thinking or what motivated him to act as he did. When he comes back in the “resurrection of . . . the righteous,” perhaps he will reveal the details.—Acts 24:15.

[sup]

[/sup] Lot was hardly a coward. He was placed in a difficult situation. By saying that the visitors had “come under the shadow” of his roof, Lot indicated that he felt compelled to provide protection and refuge for them. But this would not be easy. Jewish historian Josephus reports that the Sodomites were “unjust towards men, and impious towards God . . . They hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices.” Yet, Lot did not shrink back from the hateful mob. On the contrary, he went out and reasoned with those angry men. He even “shut the door behind him.”—Genesis 19:6.

[sup]

[/sup] ‘Still,’ some may ask, ‘why would Lot offer his daughters to the mob?’ Instead of assuming that his motives were bad, why not consider some possibilities? First of all, Lot may well have acted in faith. How so? No doubt Lot was aware of how Jehovah had protected Sarah, the wife of Abraham, Lot’s uncle. Recall that because Sarah was very beautiful, Abraham had asked her to identify him as her brother, lest others kill him in order to take her. Subsequently, Sarah was taken to the household of Pharaoh. Jehovah, however, intervened, preventing Pharaoh from violating Sarah. (Genesis 12:11-20) It is possible that Lot had faith that his daughters could be similarly protected. Significantly, Jehovah through his angels did intervene, and the young women were kept safe.

[sup]

[/sup] Consider another possibility. Lot may also have been trying to shock or confuse the men. He may have believed that his daughters would not be desired by the crowd because of the homosexual lust of the Sodomites. (Jude 7) In addition, the young women were engaged to men of the city, so relatives, friends, or business associates of his prospective sons-in-law might well have been in the crowd. (Genesis 19:14) Lot may have hoped that by reason of such ties, some men in that mob would speak up in defense of his daughters. A mob thus divided would not be nearly so dangerous.

[sup]

[/sup] Whatever Lot’s reasoning and motives, we can be sure of this: Since Jehovah always does what is right, he must have had good reason to view Lot as a “righteous man.” And judging from the actions of the crazed mob of Sodomites, can there be any doubt that Jehovah was fully justified in executing judgment upon the inhabitants of that wicked city?—Genesis 19:23-25.

Darwin · Apr 2, 2011

Yes that leads the way to the answer. Nothing happened to Lots daughters when offered to the mob just as nothing happened to Abraham's son at the point of a knife. So do you count Abraham in the same group as Lot? It seems to me that Lot was able to discern that these two travelers were no ordinary men. He bowed with his face to the ground and called them Lords.

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Apr 6, 2011

aspen said:
Lot offered his daughters to be raped by a mob and he was never confronted about it or felt an once of guilt according to the scriptures. In fact, his act was treated as a good viable option and the mob was simply being unreasonable by refusing. This is totally wrong-minded and cannot be viewed as a story about morality. It is a story about God "gutting it out".."slogging through the depravity of humanity" and beginning a good work - our redemption.

The story of Lot is about God's sovereignty not Lot's morality. Lot is certainly not an example - instead, God was just getting started in the work of the redemption of humanity - He had to start somewhere. Same with Noah, before - the scripture truthfully says that he was the most righteous of his generation (that could mean anything - look at his generation) and that is why God choose him to demonstrate His omnipotence.

Well said.

Search

Search

Lot...A Righteous Man???

whirlwind

New Member

belantos

New Member

whirlwind

New Member

[email protected]

Choir Loft

whirlwind

New Member

Alethos

New Member

[email protected]

Choir Loft

Alethos

New Member

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Alethos

New Member

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

whirlwind

New Member

studythebible

New Member

Darwin

New Member

[email protected]

Choir Loft

Similar threads